20 Questions – Big Battles

[Angadan]

Although this game has tried "battles" before, and I never liked them. The Gath Forthnir battles and Lothlorien were annoying. Run, run, run, run, fight, get told that a fight broke out elsewhere, so run, run, run, run, barely manage to keep a defender alive as you arrive at the last minute, etc. Awful mechanics. Lothlorien was worse, as I remember being told to stand still next to one defender and not move, so I could alert others when it was under attack and try to stay alive until everyone came over; most boring instance I ever ran.

I'm sorry your experience was so bad, wish you'd been with us to run it when it was brand new...you would not have been told to stand still on alert duty. We really did have fun with them, until of course we'd done it all a dozen or two dozen times and it got repetitive (like any other game element).

[Radbug]

Not entirely true. The questions came from the Council and from reading through the Helm's Deep forum to find the general types of questions that were being asked.

Yes I thought as much.

I do like the 20 questions idea, and others do too judging from the responses you get. I also appreciate the efforts you and jwbarry are making in answering the follow-up questions. I just wish you could somehow have the community at large more involved in the question generation process.

[HeirOfNumenor]

I'm sorry your experience was so bad, wish you'd been with us to run it when it was brand new...you would not have been told to stand still on alert duty. We really did have fun with them, until of course we'd done it all a dozen or two dozen times and it got repetitive (like any other game element).

So then what did you do to have fun for the whole rest of the year before the next expansion came out?

[cdq1958]

Although this game has tried "battles" before, and I never liked them. The Gath Forthnir battles and Lothlorien were annoying. Run, run, run, run, fight, get told that a fight broke out elsewhere, so run, run, run, run, barely manage to keep a defender alive as you arrive at the last minute, etc. Awful mechanics. Lothlorien was worse, as I remember being told to stand still next to one defender and not move, so I could alert others when it was under attack and try to stay alive until everyone came over; most boring instance I ever ran. Then they gave up on trying to entice players to run these battles and so they invented skirmishes and made them required... Now we have Big Battles, and a part of me seems to think it's the same old thing; run from one hot spot to the next and hope you get there in time.

Hmm. I have never had the opportunity to really run those. I ran across the Gath Forthnir one; but soloing it wasn't possible (had to be in too many places at the same time) and, as you've noted, no one wants to group for it either. I have no memory of the Lothlorien one at all. I thought the battle on Dol Baran was fairly well done, considering.

[Saniko]

For the raiders saying their kinships are dying, won't BBs be a good opportunity to take some new folks who are interested in grouping and teach 'em the trade? Everybody will get something level-appropriate, and lower-level toons will be able to contribute, better than, say, five level 20s and a 85 in GB.

Even if everyone was perfectly happy with the endgame content, over time there would still be player loss due to real life, changing interests, etc. Recruiting and teaching is more sustainable for kin activity IMO. I don't believe "casual/solo players" (whatever THAT means) can't have a potential raider inside just waiting to come out, given the chance.

With my own kin, how many times have I seen low level players, or those just a few levels shy of level cap, express a desire to join an endgame group? Come Helm's Deep, there will be less "sorry, too low" and more "yes! come join us!" in kinchat, and that's a GOOD THING. Put me down as excited and curious to see how BBs turn out.

[Morat]

Release/pre-order info usually goes out 3 months before release. Since this 20 questions has been centered on HD, it seems likely further details will be coming soonish. If we get significant info during August, release would likely be in November, which while a stretch, is still fall. [snip]

Actually, mid-December is still technically fall. November is smack dab in the middle of the fall season.

[Coyote503]

Default forum signature is vote for Sapience LOL So wrong!!

Cas

[Cefely]

According to Tolkien, my patootie. Tolkien never said our characters weren't there. Whether you're talking about the Battle of the Hornburg, or Moria (after the fellowship passed through). He simply didn't say it, didn't imply it, and (afaik) didn't intend it.

Look, JRRT was a smart guy. He built an incredibly complex and diverse world. There are literally MILLIONS of things going on in his world, only a very small fraction of which he can tell the story of. Did elves visit the Rohirrim? Sure, as proven by the fact that every Rohirrim who saw Legolas did NOT say, "what is that thing? it ain't human!" Same for dwarves. They had clearly seen elves and dwarves before. Elves and dwarves pass through Rohan. It's not a stretch to believe that there are people in Rohan who have FRIENDS who are elves and dwarves (just as there were people in the Shire, or Bree, or Rivendell, or name any other place who saw travelers of different races than themselves). Maybe one of those friends was visiting when Saruman's attack came, and the elf or dwarf helped their friend get to Helm's Deep. And ended up there with them. I don't think Tolkien would think twice before agreeing that perhaps this could have happened.

JRRT was painting with very broad strokes on his LotR canvas, except when it came to the story he set out to tell: that of the fellowship and their experiences. Just because he didn't say, "dear reader, there was a man named Angadan who--gasp--was not Rohirrim, and he took part in the battle too," that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Only that it didn't merit mention in the story Tolkien was trying to jam into less than 1,200 pages for publication.

Sorry, the world is more complex than even Tolkien described, and he's good with that. So I am, too. So should you be.

Dwarves and elves in Helm's Deep? No problem. A new dwarven expedition in Moria after the fellowship was there and gone? Okay, can live with that. Neither "break lore," they simply aren't mentioned there.

EDIT and PREEMPTIVE COUNTERSTRIKE: Before you say, "oh, you're one of those people who think it was cool that PJ added a company of elven archers to the battle, you're one of THOSE people"...nope, I'm not one of those. There is a qualitative difference between a few elves and dwarves here and there, not representing any other nation, and a company of troops sent by a neighboring political entity as a political gesture. The latter would certainly have been mentioned by Tolkien if it had occurred. Too big to leave out. Therefore, it IS lore-breaking. But...not a few scattered in here and there. Unless they're hobbits. Then break out the lore hammer.

Well said! Being a bit of a lore skeptic regarding the Battle of the Hornburg (though I do understand the need), you have made me feel better about it, thanks!

[Whart]

More like grit my teeth and run ONLY those instances that are part of the Epic Books and otherwise completely ignore the existence of the "Big Battle" instances. It's a pity, really, since the mechanic looks to be be both good and interesting and will probably be excellent for handling the Pelennor Fields and the Black Gate battles. I had hopes that Turbine had found a way to be truly innovative and done something that was neither putting player characters at the Battle of the Hornburg (objectionable to those that actually care about the lore) nor a session play (as there are those that really dislike that mechanic as well). Sadly, Turbine hasn't thought very far out of the box after all.

Ok, this is as far as I've gotten in this thread, so sorry if the post has been superseded, but this point reflects a major concern of mine. How does my elf or hobbit show up at Helm's Deep while staying true to the lore that there were no hobbits and one elf there? I'll keep reading in the hopes that the keeper of lore weighs in here.

[Cefely]

Sapience actually added "A vote for Sapience is a vote for progress! Vote today!" to my forum post since I replied negatively to the dev chat lol! Gotta love being trolled by the Community Manager!

Sure makes me want to give you my money...

Cas

P.S. No way in $%&* would I vote for you...

Added it to your post, or did you mean your sig? *confused*

[Eartholloth]

Sapience actually set "A vote for Sapience is a vote for progress! Vote today!" as my forum signature since I replied negatively to the dev chat lol! Gotta love being trolled by the Community Manager!

Sure makes me want to give you my money...

Cas

P.S. No way in $%&* would I vote for you...

LOL why don't you go read the general forum before jumping on the rant bandwagon. You will get your answer there.

[Sapience]

Sapience actually set "A vote for Sapience is a vote for progress! Vote today!" as my forum signature since I replied negatively to the dev chat lol! Gotta love being trolled by the Community Manager!

Sure makes me want to give you my money...

Cas

P.S. No way in $%&* would I vote for you...

Sorry, not so lucky. I reset all the broken links in everyone's signatures to say that and made it hot pink so everyone would notice it and change their sigs. I knew it was the fastest way to get people to fix their sigs. You weren't trolled, you were manipulated. At my expense I might add.

Now, about the multiple violations of the community guidelines in your post....

[Coyote503]

Way to improve community relations!

Cas

[whheydt]

One thing to mention, though, this hasn't even gone into Beta yet, that we are aware of, so it's "subject to change" up until, and even after, launch...as they say.

One would hope that, by now, it is on the Palantir server. But for your main point, when was the last time a significant mechanic was actually changed as a result of reports from Bullroarer? And, no, I don't class reworking the intro to mounted combat exercise fixing as "changing a mechanic".

[whheydt]

Ok, this is as far as I've gotten in this thread, so sorry if the post has been superseded, but this point reflects a major concern of mine. How does my elf or hobbit show up at Helm's Deep while staying true to the lore that there were no hobbits and one elf there? I'll keep reading in the hopes that the keeper of lore weighs in here.

There are some people trying to run circles over, around and through the lore to assert loopholes that will permit you be there. It's possible you'll buy their reasoning. (I don't.)

What would do it for me would be for Sapience to be upfront about them breaking lore--"spending a lore cookie" for those who remember that terminology--and just saying that they couldn't find another way to handle the battle without driving too many players away...and took the calculated risk that this would be accepted. Crass and money grubbing, but realistic and understandable. Trying to weasel word everything...not so much.

[AllySanders]

I'm guessing it'll come down, eventually, to this: is your group made up of people who can take on huge responsibilities alone, or maybe in groups of 2? For instance, protecting the catapults becomes a need in the fight. At the same time, someone has to protect the engineers filling in the breached wall, or the other guys shoring up the sally port gate. Oh and we need people to go help those wounded over there. So the first time you try it, you peel 3 guys off to the catapult defense, and another2 off to heal/rescue wounded, and 3 each to the defense of the two fortification efforts. And you do all those things pretty well, but have no one left to work on killing the enemy archers and pushing down the climbing ladders. So you get a few gold medals for the things you did well, and a bronze and a failed (no medal) on the things you didn't have people left to work on. So the NEXT time you go in and try the fight, BillyJoeBob says, "hey I know a way I can defend the catapults all by myself, leave me to it," and SueAnn says, "yeah and I can rescue all those wounded on my own, no problem."...freeing up 3 people to stretch your team to go after the archers and push down the ladders. And on the iteration after that, maybe you spend one less person in a task you got a Platinum medal in, freeing him up to go help with the Silver medal result from before. And so on and so on until you (maybe never lol) get all platinums.

Great explanation! The only thing is that I don't think you get graded for completing/not completing each individual objective, but get graded on the overall fight--thus at the end you only get 1 medal, not potentially 4. So say on the first time through, you only manage to defend the catapault, but the wounded are captured/killed, the fortification efforts fail, and the archers scale the ladders. At the end of the entire fight, you get graded "bronze" for the whole thing. The next time through, say you also manage to protect the wounded. This time, you get graded "silver". Now if you do it several times, getting graded bronze each time, you have the option to either get bronze level loot or save up those perks to finally get something silver level. If you manage to complete all 4 objectives in a single run, you get graded "platinum" for that single run, and obtain the best gear; HOWEVER, you CAN'T save up the bronze, silver, and gold tokens to earn platinum gear; you only get platinum level gear if you earn it, and there is apparently going to be a solo/duo version of platinum gear, and a grouping version of platinum gear.

At least, that's the way I'm understanding it. Does that sound right?

If that's right, then the ability to trade up sounds like it may have the potential to turn it into a grind/farm thing, though it does sound like the developers are trying to avoid this as best they can within the limits of the whole system, and this is something I can appreciate, especially as a solo player who, while acknowledging that its only fair that the absolute best stuff be available only for the hardest content, does like to see special stuff for solo players as well! The ability to run it and achieve a different grade each time may help with this, and since platinum cannot be upgraded to, players will be encouraged to keep trying it and do better, which is something I like. Also, since gear is going to be scaleable, players would also be encouraged to try it again at different levels to get better stuff all the way up to level 95.

And if I'm understanding it correctly, a player will be able to select the number of objectives within the game to complete? The whole "selectability thing opposed to the old tier system" confuses me, but then again, I rarely play skirmishes, so I'm not up on the lingo for them.

Will the objectives in each session be randomly generated so that a player or group of players don't just simply play the same session over until they have it memorized and thus begin to farm it?

[Sapience]

Way to improve community relations!

Cas

If a joke at my own expense won't do it, nothing will.

[Ryvick]

Actually I believe as described it WOULD be graded for each objective separately. The reward is only given once for your Best Grade at an objective. Multiple Objectives with even more objectives/different objectives the harder the difficulty.

[AllySanders]

There's another reason for this too, and that these are accessible. No one inspects you for sambrog before deciding to invite you. Very often they don't even care what class you are. Thus the door is open and there are no bouncers in sight. Whereas the other instances are trickier. Fornost isn't too bad but has locks for everything but water. Even then when eligible half the time I'm asked if I can bring a different class, or if I wouldn't mind retraiting. If I say I haven't done a particular instance I will not get the invite most of the time. If I'm unfamiliar with some mechanics I have had players curse at me for doing something unexpected. I'm avoiding the harder instances because of the stress of dealing with other players, not because it's difficult.

A big problem is that there's only one single 6 person instance that's new. 3 person ones are difficult, and overall all the 3 person instances end up being more challenging as you have less room to make mistakes and you must have a good group make up. 6 person gives you more leeway. Then raids up the difficulty again and because they're full of regular farmers they have zero patience for newcomers. So 6 person being the most accessible is strange that it is also the rarest! Doesn't help that the Bells of Dale is sort of weird and not all that fun. That's why I see so many people running Great Barrows or Fornost or Sammath Gul, because those are the 6 person instances that are fun.

This is the whole reason I usually don't even try to do group content. I know I'm new and will make mistakes, and like you said, regular raiders seem to have no patience at all for newbies, and I don't particularly care to spend an hour getting yelled at. I play this game to relieve stress--i.e. kill orcs instead of co-workers -not to increase my stress!

[Ferthcott]

I didn't read this. I was assuming platinum level would require a group.

So platinums are available in solo, and bronzes are available in raids.

Basically as I understand it, anything that is a faceroll for one player means that this player can rerun it and do much better and get far better rewards by trying harder.

Not that, I am not talking about completing "vanilla instance" and getting forward. Differences between classes in terms of their solo survivability (or solo DPS or solo AoE, whatever is the best way to complete a task) are so significant that reaching platinum level is going to be far from the same experience. Which means it's going to be much easier for some classes and much harder for others - unless revamps are going to ensure eg. everybody can DPS on very similar level and you know, whatever else.

Also, picture this - if Platinum is given for "completing the hardest tasks" and it is given for duoing Platinum requirements in solo instance...

...what is "soloing Platinum requirements in solo instance" then? Super-duper hard task? More Platinum for those?

This is not like traditional instances where as soon as you've discovered the trick it gets put onto farming status because it's easy to complete over and over. The goal if done right will be that you will always be able to do better than last time and slacking off means you are intentionally giving up some rewards.

So it's basically adding T1,25, T1,5, T1,75 etc. Hardly a revolution, unless our efforts can be rewarded with eg. 3 Gold plus 14 Silver OR 3 Gold plus 10 Silver if we lose one more soldier over there - as opposed to 1 Gold if you didn't like LOTRO on Facebook OR 1 Silver if you rescued Sara Oakheart in the process OR 1 Bronze if you additionally failed to open a Hobbit Present. Conditions may vary.

The rest, comparison with skirmishes etc is "wait and see" I guess.

Ok, this is as far as I've gotten in this thread, so sorry if the post has been superseded, but this point reflects a major concern of mine. How does my elf or hobbit show up at Helm's Deep while staying true to the lore that there were no hobbits and one elf there? I'll keep reading in the hopes that the keeper of lore weighs in here.

Do you believe "lore" contains an objective and detailed description of the battle and direct statements about composition of defending forces (on lower level than "armies" or "regiments" etc)? If yes, what do you base that belief on?

Judging from common "it's breaking lore!" arguments, that proved pretty much nothing so far save from supporting a few "but this or that detail should be avoided" conditions, "lore" is pretty much "Two Towers", which makes the whole argument even weaker than claiming there's an evidence of absence (of PC in Helm's Deep) through absence of the evidence (of their presence). What's left can certainly be used to argue how it should not be done, but hardly that it should not be done at all. But I guess less dramatic positions are not attractive enough

[Eartholloth]

kill orcs instead of co-workers

LOL that should be a bumper sticker. LOL

[Khammal]

Im just wondering what kind of BIG bosses will we face in this BIG battle O.o

[AllySanders]

So then what did you do to have fun for the whole rest of the year before the next expansion came out?

True, but then that thing happens in anything and everything we do. You play battleship or Clue or even Monopoly with your friends for the first time, and its fun and exciting. Do it every day for a year? Even though there is some randomness to the game to make it slightly different than last time, its still the same game, same board, same pieces--eventually, you get into a rut of the same play style. Console games and single player computer games are the same thing--you play the game the first time and it's fun and challenging. By the 20th or 30th time through? You've got the map memorized and can sleep walk through it. So then you look for something new to challenge you. The first time you read a book or watch a movie or listen to an album, its new, fresh, and exciting; not so much the 5th or 6th time, even if they are very much favorites.

Unfortunately, I'm afraid that's life and there really is no way to solve that problem. I've rolled a ton of toons and let me tell you, I can practically quote the intro, especially for men/hobbits, not to mention the quests in Ered Luin/the Shire/Breeland. My roommate and I both joke about the number of times we've each completed the quest and "killed" Amdir--the poor guy must have really ticked off some Vala somewhere to get caught in this horrible ground hog's day time loop, let me tell ya! I personally handle the monotony by having a different storyline in my head for each character I play; it becomes more about the new story in my head or working out details then necessarily about the game mechanics themselves, and truthfully, the game mechanics take a back seat to the story itself--that's also the reason why I have so many toons.....And the 9 different classes with different trait lineups for each also helps me keep things new--if I roll a second hunter, I'll trait it to be the huntsman if my first was the bowmaster, that sort of thing.

So things are going to get boring at times, yeah, but there are ways to deal with it until new content comes out and still allow you to enjoy the game. Your enjoyment is really up to you, and the game becomes what you make of it.

[Elderban]

One would hope that, by now, it is on the Palantir server. But for your main point, when was the last time a significant mechanic was actually changed as a result of reports from Bullroarer? And, no, I don't class reworking the intro to mounted combat exercise fixing as "changing a mechanic".

For beta? Quite often (in fact a lot of things got changed in Rohan because of Beta).

When BR is open to the public? Never that I can think of.

[Bowman99]

JWB said:


Hmmm....


That looks suspiciously like a set up where the better you do in one run, the easier subsequent runs become. I predict complaints that the Battle instances are "too easy" within days of launch.

This is just a guess but I'm betting there are Orcs in tuxedos standing at the entrance to each instance with a chocolate mint for each adventurer and a box with a random door prize in it.