20 Questions – Big Battles

[whheydt]

The last time I checked, expansions were for the people at end game with nothing to do. This was to bring them back/keep them playing your game. The lowbies at level ten and such have months of content to play. We don't!!!

I don't think your premise is valid. Given the story driven nature of LotRO, expansions can be legitimately seen as a device to move the story forwards towards the conclusion that Tolkien wrote. And, indeed, inclduing the Battle of the Hornburg (*and* developing a mechanic to handle large battles, as are coming up) moves the story forward.

The inclusion of low level characters in the system permits Turbine to provide a reason for new players to buy the expansion, instead of waiting those months before they "need" it. If you can't think of anything to do, I suggest that the problem can be seen in your mirror. If Turbine were to delay HD for a year, I wouldn't run out of things to do in game.

[HeirOfNumenor]

Western Rohan is big enough to consider that three heroes or six heroes or even 12 heroes of middle earth are needed to combat some growing threat somewhere. The traditional instances I was hoping for and am now disappointed will not exist are more than possible to fit in somewhere if they had the time and money to add it after the helms deep experience. Alas, it sounds most likely that hytbold 2.0 will be the only content we will be expecting. Here's to hoping we're all blown away by big battles I guess. To me it sounds like we will play through it once and enjoy the first experience, then the grind will immediately set in due to needing these medals, marks, medallions, and seals to get the best gear.

This is probably the most intelligent comment I have seen thus far (page 11 in this thread) as to why there should traditional instances/raids with this expansion.

Question though: If you play it (HD BB) through once and enjoy it, then immediately start grinding over and over for gear - how is that different from if it was a raid? Wouldn't you just play it through once, enjoy it, and then grind it over and over until you got your gear?
And then what? How would you keep from being bored over the course of the next year before the NEXT expansion arrives?

I seriously want to understand this mindset....

[Angadan]

I think the point is that it will be fairly easy to get to the end of the instance, but as you progress through it there will be a series of objectives or sub quests that will be very difficult and will require tight coordination to complete in full for the best reward or score for that particular task, but which can be completed to a lesser extent (more casualties, bring fewer mob spawns into play, more damage to defences or whatever it happens to be) for lesser rewards....

Yah, that's how I'm reading it too. Remember the Caras Galadhon instance, Battle for Lothlorien, or whatever it was called, where simply winning the fight was pretty simple once you knew what was going on....but winning all the side quests (killing a couple of roving leaders, taking out several camp shrines, etc) was pretty challenging and required a solid group? That's sort of how I envision the BB scoring system...there will simply be so many things that need to be done, spaced out in time in a very challenging way, that trying to do them all would be hugely challenging...though winning the fight without worrying about all, or even most, of those elements--or even just doing several of them partially--would be MUCH easier.

[Lohi]

Don't forget that the whole skills system is being revamped. Level 10s may be able to make more meaningful contributions, though if this means that ALL your skills are available from the outset,

I think you're stretching on "meaningful". A level 10 scaled up will absolutely be able to make meaningful contributions using only currently available level 10 skills. It is just that this meaningful contribution will be limited. Ie, presumably they'll be doing lots more DPS than support duties (except for lore master who at level 10 will do more support than DPS). They will be able to do moderate healing as well, even though not great healing. Tanking will be iffy; wardens will be able to generate multi target aggro but guardians will find it difficult, but in a three man group they won't be useless.

People still seem to be thinking in terms of traditional instances. You won't need all the traditional roles, you won't need to have everyone traited to be the best, you won't need people to "know their class", etc. However this means you won't get the best rewards. That's fine with most I think since they can now group with more friends. They won't even be required to group with such players if they don't want to, they can group exclusively with only top rated players if they feel that is the only way to have fun. Whereas I think most players will go with a mix, sometimes grouping with friends just for fun, and sometimes grouping with the uber club, and sometimes soloing. Each of those styles will result in different tiers of rewards.

Compare to players TODAY who are at level 85 and don't know their classes, haven't even trained all their skills, have gear that some players will openly laugh at. There is no game mechanic that forbids those players from attempting group content. (We even have some players who will tell those players that they should unsubscribe and quit because their existence can't be tolerated.)

So I don't see any need to grant all skills just to scale someone up. There's no need to do this since they won't be joining you in traditional instances where any mistake is fatal.

[HeirOfNumenor]

Each quest has a medal rating given to you upon completion. All quests support all levels of medal (bronze, silver, gold, platinum). Each Big Battle instance has multiple quests associated with it (1 primary, several randomized secondaries). The quests in a solo/duo version of a space and the quests in each of the various group versions of a space are different and unique quests, even though they may share common elements. So platinums are available in solo, and bronzes are available in raids.

Think of medals like a letter grade (A - Platinum, B - Gold, C - Silver, D - Bronze). Each time you do that quests you get a grade. When you do that same quest again, you get a new grade based on how well you did that time.

The primary reward system does have a method for 'trading up' where we allow you to choose whether you're going to get a random bronze medal quality class specific item or instead get a little more progress towards getting a silver item. So you can either cash out or turn your pennies into dollars, in a manner of speaking. As of now you can turn bronze into silver progress, and silver into gold, but you cannot turn gold into platinum. The best rewards must be earned by doing the hardest tasks, not grinding and saving up a lot of the easier ones.

Also as of now, a platinum is a platinum is a platinum, doesn't matter where you got it for it all counts the same. Numbers are being watched through playtest and iteration to see if that needs to have a slide based on group size but at the moment it doesn't feel like it does.



Promotions are the advancement system of Big Battles. We look at only the highest medal earned for each Big Battle quest and give you a certain amount of points to spend in a new tree related to the new mechanics and gameplay within Big Battle instances. A platinum medal gets you more points to spend than a bronze medal. Given that we only look at the highest earned, and not lifetime earn, doing the group spaces in addition to solo will provide more points available to specialize and improve.

These are great explanations - thank you.

Promotions are the advancement system of Big Battles. We look at only the highest medal earned for each Big Battle quest and give you a certain amount of points to spend in a new tree related to the new mechanics and gameplay within Big Battle instances. A platinum medal gets you more points to spend than a bronze medal. Given that we only look at the highest earned, and not lifetime earn, doing the group spaces in addition to solo will provide more points available to specialize and improve.

This sounds a lot like the class tree that Everquest 2 had, when I played that heavily from 2005-07. This was a progression of additional skills and abilities, that did not replace the standard skills acquired by leveling, but rather complemented and expanded your earned skills.

[Witch0King]

Well I hope that instead of fighting waves of 3 orcs at a time it will actually feel like a battle where the place you stand and those around you actually make a difference. Few things annoy me as much as running to a man fighting an uruk npc and he just falls dead the moment you get there.

[Mirnir]

Well... In the questions you *did* address the point that player characters of all races and origins will be in the Battle of the Hornburg (which was misnamed as the "Battle of Helm's Deep), so the issue of random Elves, Darves, Hobbits, and non-Rohirrm Men is on topic to that point.

There was no mention of non-hero Elves, Dwarves or Hobbits when Pippin and Bergil watched the forces gather for the defence of Minas Tirith, or at the muster of Rohan, or at the Last Debate where the composition of the army to march on the Morannon was laid out.
If we were not to be involved with our characters because of their race, would we not be effectively done with the book story? It's difficult to imagine where we would be able to get close to that story from now on if that were the case...

[Lohi]

I like the challenge and scaled teirs, not babying new players to make it easier on them.

Why does everyone assume that they'll be forced to group with new players? It'll be the same as now; people will pre-form groups with friends or after inspecting players for approved traits and gear, then start up instance finder after the group is formed to get a bonus. If someone inadvertently gets in a group with others who don't seem to measure up then he will "accidentally" go link dead to get out of it. In Helm's Deep playrs will be allowed to be just as unsocial and exclusive as they are today.

[Angadan]

I'm guessing it'll come down, eventually, to this: is your group made up of people who can take on huge responsibilities alone, or maybe in groups of 2? For instance, protecting the catapults becomes a need in the fight. At the same time, someone has to protect the engineers filling in the breached wall, or the other guys shoring up the sally port gate. Oh and we need people to go help those wounded over there. So the first time you try it, you peel 3 guys off to the catapult defense, and another2 off to heal/rescue wounded, and 3 each to the defense of the two fortification efforts. And you do all those things pretty well, but have no one left to work on killing the enemy archers and pushing down the climbing ladders. So you get a few gold medals for the things you did well, and a bronze and a failed (no medal) on the things you didn't have people left to work on. So the NEXT time you go in and try the fight, BillyJoeBob says, "hey I know a way I can defend the catapults all by myself, leave me to it," and SueAnn says, "yeah and I can rescue all those wounded on my own, no problem."...freeing up 3 people to stretch your team to go after the archers and push down the ladders. And on the iteration after that, maybe you spend one less person in a task you got a Platinum medal in, freeing him up to go help with the Silver medal result from before. And so on and so on until you (maybe never lol) get all platinums.

[HeirOfNumenor]

I like the idea of upgrading rewards but the key will be in the conversion rates. If it's 25 Bronze to 1 Silver I would consider the system more lip-service than a functional means of obtaining greater rewards. However I do not like that I cannot upgrade to Platinum. This seems like nothing more than a means to exclude solo players from the "greatest rewards".

In regards to the grading system you mentioned:


It sounds like there will be a variety of scoring 'categories' on which players will be graded A - D (Platinum - Bronze). If a player scored a D in a particular category they would be able to obtain a higher score by attempting the same content and 'doing better'. This seems very much like the 'achievements' system in Portal, though I'm sure it's analogous to systems in many games.

However, it sounds like there will be 'categories' that will be exclusive to group content. Which is to say that a purely solo player will never have an opportunity to obtain points to spend in the new tree from those 'categories' gated by group content. As such a solo player will never be able to max-out their new tree or obtain as much progress or improvement to their character as will a grouped player. Would you characterize this as a fair assessment?

This to me seems like a fair compromise. As an exclusively solo player, I know I am not doing the hardest stuff while solo. Those at level cap who have spent the time to polish their skills, battled to obtain the best gear, etc, should naturally receive the highest awards. This medals system takes that reality into account. It also takes into account that the whole storyline is linear, and if the only new parts to the expansion takes a brand new player 6-12 months until he has gained the xp, gear, traits, skill etc, and knowledge of how to use them properly - there is no reason why that new player would buy the expansion (unless of course it was impossible to obtain earlier versions of the game).

This game was never designed to be primarily a solo game. Likewise, while it started out as oriented heavily towards groups, changes in the economy, availability of high powered computers, and changes in the playerbase has made nearly all MMO of necessity to have to adapt to the now-immense push of solo gaming, while still keeping serious grouping still relevant and engaged. Not an easy thing to do.

I'm glad Turbine is making this serious effort to do so with this expansion. It just may not be the way people expected.

[Sthrax]

I like the sound of Big Battles. By any chance did any of the devs run the Battle of Hoth Heroic Encounter in Star Wars Galaxies? Because this has a very similar feel to it.

For those who never played it, you basically were part of the battle depicted in The Empire Strikes Back. You couldn't change the outcome (Imperials win, Rebels lose), but you had various objectives to accomplish throughout the battle as well as some optional things to attempt as well. If you were an Imperial, you had to protect as many AT-ATs from destruction as possible, kill as many rebel officers as possible and seize control of critical base areas, and prevent as many fighters from launching and escaping as possible, among other things. A rebel had to destroy as many AT-ATs as possible, get as many evacuees out of the base and protect the fighters and transports as they took off. You were rewarded based on how well you did those things (a Flawless Victory was the Imperial goal, and one that was supremely difficult to achieve).

Its a shame it came out so late in SWG's life, because it was more fun than any traditional raid I've played in any game before or since.

[cdq1958]

I like the sound of Big Battles. By any chance did any of the devs run the Battle of Hoth Heroic Encounter in Star Wars Galaxies? Because this has a very similar feel to it.

For those who never played it, you basically were part of the battle depicted in The Empire Strikes Back. You couldn't change the outcome (Imperials win, Rebels lose), but you had various objectives to accomplish throughout the battle as well as some optional things to attempt as well. If you were an Imperial, you had to protect as many AT-ATs from destruction as possible, kill as many rebel officers as possible and seize control of critical base areas, and prevent as many fighters from launching and escaping as possible, among other things. A rebel had to destroy as many AT-ATs as possible, get as many evacuees out of the base and protect the fighters and transports as they took off. You were rewarded based on how well you did those things (a Flawless Victory was the Imperial goal, and one that was supremely difficult to achieve).

Its a shame it came out so late in SWG's life, because it was more fun than any traditional raid I've played in any game before or since.

I remember that, and it was a blast in a guild (kin) run. Sometimes, at the end, some of us would take on Darth Vader :P. I don't know if any of the devs here ever played SW:G but for me, the only two MMOs that ever got more than a month or two's time and hundreds of dollars from me were SW:G and this one. There's a reason for that, even though SW:G was a sandbox type and this one is a theme park type.

One other thing late in SW:G's life was the city invasion system. Very lag prone, but you could actually win one solo; and if rival guilds were involved, lots of fun (even if you hated the PvP part). I see this as having the potential to be similar to the city invasion system and have some of GW2's event system features, too. I can't wait to see how this works. Beta. Beta. Beta!

[HeirOfNumenor]

This is a bit disingenuous. There's a difference between something outside the lore (having leeway since something wasn't mentioned in the books) and something against the lore (something different than what was blatantly stated in the books). And being okay with small liberties regarding the lore doesn't mean that, ergo, every break from canon should be willingly accepted without comment. In the past, Devs on this very forum have used lore to explain why something was done differently, or will never come to pass (eagle mounts, anyone?).

In a game that relies heavily on the IP, you're bound to have a lot of people interested in the lore. It may be annoying to hear about, but these are your customers.

Well hey - since we are dumping on non-Lore.....

The only issue I have with Lore-Breaking THUS FAR (highest is level 45 and haven't been beyond Trollshaws -I'm a completionist, grind for TP, and crit-craft all my own gear so I need to level ALL toons nearly equally to each other)....

The only issue I have thus far is the Lone-Lands.....NORTH of the Great East Road between Weathertop and the Loudwater it was nothing but FLAT EMPTY WASTE (fields, marshes - no trees, no hills, no canyons...no cover whatsoever as you travel). SOUTH of the road was between Bree and the Loudwater was essentially rolling hills, some streams, and lots of scattered thickets of Beech and other trees to provide cover for movement.

The geography (based on Tolkien's statement that the Shire was about where Oxford, England is, and that Minas Tirith is about where Venice, Italy is located (north end of Adriatic Sea) would place the Lone-Lands about on the coast of the Netherlands in today's world, but accounting for changed landmasses would give the Lone-Lands a climate likely similar to that of from Poland to Belarus - NOT a desert or semi-arid steppe like Kazakhstan.

I can handle the ruins, goblins, and Half-Orcs BUT NOT those 4-legged ostrich-like bog lurkers

[IMG][/IMG]

[Vincent_Price]

The only question i have is :

Is there any chance to include any "dynamic" events within the instance (such as walls collapsing in random spots each time, getting arrows from Uruk archers from the distance and others)?

For those that want another name for Big Battles, i don't think it's important or needed, but you could always go with Humongous Pew Pew! Oh, darn...it's 3 words..

[Frisco]

Yah, that's how I'm reading it too. Remember the Caras Galadhon instance, Battle for Lothlorien, or whatever it was called, where simply winning the fight was pretty simple once you knew what was going on....but winning all the side quests (killing a couple of roving leaders, taking out several camp shrines, etc) was pretty challenging and required a solid group? That's sort of how I envision the BB scoring system...there will simply be so many things that need to be done, spaced out in time in a very challenging way, that trying to do them all would be hugely challenging...though winning the fight without worrying about all, or even most, of those elements--or even just doing several of them partially--would be MUCH easier.

Yeah, that's great. If you were around, you know that all of NOBODY ever did Battle for Lorien because it just wasn't any fun. I hope for the sake of the people sticking around that it's not anything like it.

[Lohi]

In a solo version. Which will have to be completable on platinum level for any class,

I didn't read this. I was assuming platinum level would require a group.

Basically as I understand it, anything that is a faceroll for one player means that this player can rerun it and do much better and get far better rewards by trying harder. This is not like traditional instances where as soon as you've discovered the trick it gets put onto farming status because it's easy to complete over and over. The goal if done right will be that you will always be able to do better than last time and slacking off means you are intentionally giving up some rewards.

Ie, with a skirmish you figure out what to do, you get to the end, you get the rewards, and once you've figured out the right way to do it there's no point in trying to do it any better since you don't get better rewards; ie, all hobbits alive at end of tier 3 always gives you same type of chest to loot and same marks/medallions. However with Big Battles(tm) you will get better rewards if you figure out how to do it better than than last time; faster, more defenders saved, more objectives completed, finished more quickly, or something like that. This is more similar to the survival Barrow Downs skirmish perhaps where there is no fixed objective that defines "winning" (though hopefully more fun than barrow downs survival).

If they do it well (and here's hoping) there will be a somewhat incremental or smooth transition between the grades. So that doing just slightly better than last time gives you slightly more stuff than last time. If done badly instead then we have just a few fixed plateaus and once you've reached the plateau you're best at then it's not worth the hassle to try to reach the next plateau.

I really hate things like leaderboards in general. But they might help with this type of instance in order to encourage some players to keep trying in order to improve their score (for those players who like competition).

[Lohi]

BUT, all I ever see now in GLFF as of late is "X/12 Sambrog farm".

There's another reason for this too, and that these are accessible. No one inspects you for sambrog before deciding to invite you. Very often they don't even care what class you are. Thus the door is open and there are no bouncers in sight. Whereas the other instances are trickier. Fornost isn't too bad but has locks for everything but water. Even then when eligible half the time I'm asked if I can bring a different class, or if I wouldn't mind retraiting. If I say I haven't done a particular instance I will not get the invite most of the time. If I'm unfamiliar with some mechanics I have had players curse at me for doing something unexpected. I'm avoiding the harder instances because of the stress of dealing with other players, not because it's difficult.

A big problem is that there's only one single 6 person instance that's new. 3 person ones are difficult, and overall all the 3 person instances end up being more challenging as you have less room to make mistakes and you must have a good group make up. 6 person gives you more leeway. Then raids up the difficulty again and because they're full of regular farmers they have zero patience for newcomers. So 6 person being the most accessible is strange that it is also the rarest! Doesn't help that the Bells of Dale is sort of weird and not all that fun. That's why I see so many people running Great Barrows or Fornost or Sammath Gul, because those are the 6 person instances that are fun.

[Angadan]

Yeah, that's great. If you were around, you know that all of NOBODY ever did Battle for Lorien because it just wasn't any fun. I hope for the sake of the people sticking around that it's not anything like it.

I thought it was fun. Until we broke the code on doing it with all the bells and whistles. Then, like any instance, it got boring quickly. Now, if by "fun" you meant "rewarding," and by "rewarding," you meant "phat loots," then I agree. It wasn't any fun at all.

[Lohi]

And WE NEED RAIDS.

No! If we're going to have traditional instances, we need more non raid intances! Please, everyone says how great Moria was, but Moria was mostly normal 6 person instances with only 1 raid at the start, then eventually only 3 (with one really easy). Thus more than twice as many 6 person instances as raids! With Dunland and Rohan they have reversed this, now more raids than non-raids, and most players are cut out of it because they don't meet the club house rules to get in.

[Incognitas]

Massive Melees?

Colossal Conflicts?

Bilbo's Bilious Battles!

[whheydt]

JWB said:

Promotions are the advancement system of Big Battles. We look at only the highest medal earned for each Big Battle quest and give you a certain amount of points to spend in a new tree related to the new mechanics and gameplay within Big Battle instances. A platinum medal gets you more points to spend than a bronze medal. Given that we only look at the highest earned, and not lifetime earn, doing the group spaces in addition to solo will provide more points available to specialize and improve.

Hmmm....


That looks suspiciously like a set up where the better you do in one run, the easier subsequent runs become. I predict complaints that the Battle instances are "too easy" within days of launch.

[Angadan]

No, I wasn't expecting to be a session play. However, our characters weren't there according to Tolkien, so by putting our characters there, we are decidedly not going to be playing through what Tolkien wrote about, but some alternate world where Turbine caters to those for whom game mechanics get to overrule the underlying IP.

But there's essentially no choice. The HAD to put in Hornberg because so many players have been screaming for it to be added for 6 years now. The only thing most players who only saw the movies remember are Moria and Battle of Hornberg. Leaving this out would be like leaving out Moria. Remember, we broke lore by allowing us into Moria also.

According to Tolkien, my patootie. Tolkien never said our characters weren't there. Whether you're talking about the Battle of the Hornburg, or Moria (after the fellowship passed through). He simply didn't say it, didn't imply it, and (afaik) didn't intend it.

Look, JRRT was a smart guy. He built an incredibly complex and diverse world. There are literally MILLIONS of things going on in his world, only a very small fraction of which he can tell the story of. Did elves visit the Rohirrim? Sure, as proven by the fact that every Rohirrim who saw Legolas did NOT say, "what is that thing? it ain't human!" Same for dwarves. They had clearly seen elves and dwarves before. Elves and dwarves pass through Rohan. It's not a stretch to believe that there are people in Rohan who have FRIENDS who are elves and dwarves (just as there were people in the Shire, or Bree, or Rivendell, or name any other place who saw travelers of different races than themselves). Maybe one of those friends was visiting when Saruman's attack came, and the elf or dwarf helped their friend get to Helm's Deep. And ended up there with them. I don't think Tolkien would think twice before agreeing that perhaps this could have happened.

JRRT was painting with very broad strokes on his LotR canvas, except when it came to the story he set out to tell: that of the fellowship and their experiences. Just because he didn't say, "dear reader, there was a man named Angadan who--gasp--was not Rohirrim, and he took part in the battle too," that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Only that it didn't merit mention in the story Tolkien was trying to jam into less than 1,200 pages for publication.

Sorry, the world is more complex than even Tolkien described, and he's good with that. So I am, too. So should you be.

Dwarves and elves in Helm's Deep? No problem. A new dwarven expedition in Moria after the fellowship was there and gone? Okay, can live with that. Neither "break lore," they simply aren't mentioned there.

EDIT and PREEMPTIVE COUNTERSTRIKE: Before you say, "oh, you're one of those people who think it was cool that PJ added a company of elven archers to the battle, you're one of THOSE people"...nope, I'm not one of those. There is a qualitative difference between a few elves and dwarves here and there, not representing any other nation, and a company of troops sent by a neighboring political entity as a political gesture. The latter would certainly have been mentioned by Tolkien if it had occurred. Too big to leave out. Therefore, it IS lore-breaking. But...not a few scattered in here and there. Unless they're hobbits. Then break out the lore hammer.

[Elderban]

That looks suspiciously like a set up where the better you do in one run, the easier subsequent runs become. I predict complaints that the Battle instances are "too easy" within days of launch.

One thing to mention, though, this hasn't even gone into Beta yet, that we are aware of, so it's "subject to change" up until, and even after, launch...as they say.

[Lohi]

I remember that, and it was a blast in a guild (kin) run.

Although this game has tried "battles" before, and I never liked them. The Gath Forthnir battles and Lothlorien were annoying. Run, run, run, run, fight, get told that a fight broke out elsewhere, so run, run, run, run, barely manage to keep a defender alive as you arrive at the last minute, etc. Awful mechanics. Lothlorien was worse, as I remember being told to stand still next to one defender and not move, so I could alert others when it was under attack and try to stay alive until everyone came over; most boring instance I ever ran. Then they gave up on trying to entice players to run these battles and so they invented skirmishes and made them required... Now we have Big Battles, and a part of me seems to think it's the same old thing; run from one hot spot to the next and hope you get there in time.

[spelunker]

Promotions are the advancement system of Big Battles. We look at only the highest medal earned for each Big Battle quest and give you a certain amount of points to spend in a new tree related to the new mechanics and gameplay within Big Battle instances. A platinum medal gets you more points to spend than a bronze medal. Given that we only look at the highest earned, and not lifetime earn, doing the group spaces in addition to solo will provide more points available to specialize and improve.

Looking at this part again has raised some concerns, could you elaborate?

It sounds like we will have a set of trait trees specific to Big Battles whose benefits we will not be able to realize outside of said Big Battles, true?

If so, how much of an impact will these trait trees have on our ability to complete challenges for medals within BBs?

Are these instances being designed and tuned around the concept that you will need to have spent the points earned from bronze medals to be able to attempt silver medal challenges, and silver completed for gold, and gold for Platinum? Can someone who has no medals to their character's name, but is otherwise outfitted and played at a top level reasonably expect to be able to achieve higher medals?