At last, is the Big Battle of Helm's Deep Lore-Breaking?

[Angadan]

POST SCRIPT: There's a video out on the webs, I'm sure you could find it at YouTube or such, that began life as a psychological experiment. Some of you will have seen it in your professional lives, because business development/efficiency consultants tend to use it to make one of their key points. I think the video was made at Stanford or Berkeley, some place like that. It has a half-dozen college kids tossing two or three basketballs back and forth in a room. Lasts about two minutes. Before the video starts, you're told by the moderator that you should carefully count every time a basketball is tossed from one person to another. Your observational skills are being tested. Because there are 2 or 3 balls, it will be a bit challenging to notice every one, so watch closely. So the video starts, and you start counting. About the time you get to 10 or 15, a person in a huge gorilla suit walks into the side of the frame. He stands there a little while, then walks right through the middle of the people throwing the balls and stands on the other side a little while, then eventually wanders off screen at the opposite side. He was visible for over half of the 2-minute video. Here's the cool part: over half of the people who watch that video are so focused on counting ball tosses that they never see the gorilla, and are shocked to find out it was there. True story, go look it up.

How does that apply to our Lore Quandry? Just this way: the narrator of the story (either a hobbit with a quill pen in hand or a guy named Tolkien, depending on your preference) was probably too busy following the movements of his subjects, the Fellowship of the Ring, to notice even awesomesauce people like us showing up nearby from time to time. It's just human nature. It can be forgiven, and we can enjoy the opportunity it presents.

[Ferthcott]

People have different opinions and perspectives, of course, but such strongly divergent views, well, there must be a reason for it.

I'd start with what is being considered "lore" or "lore-breaking", on a semantic level, looking for private definitions and individual modifications. It's not a culprit every time, but often enough.

[Kongas]

Heh, yes, I'm having a bit of fun at the expense of the people who think a little too much of their own characters' importance in the world. I don't mean it maliciously, you CAN point the finger at Turbine devs if you want, who do tend to pat us on the back a lot (as most good game designers will do, of course).

Could we be at Helm's Deep and fit within the lore? Absolutely. The other people there, they just don't understand how super cool we are, and that gives us the opportunity to fit right in.

Hey I can one-shot trolls and my friends shoot lighting from their fingers and conjure giant trees to fight with them out of thin air. That pretty much qualifies as 'awesome' in my book. :-)

And in the game we are all but members of the fellowship, we're Gandalf's, Galadriel's and Elrond's Go-To guys. In the story we clearly are not 'ordinary'. And at the end, when Aragorn is 'praise himming' the hobbits I'm pretty sure there'll be a big shout-out cut scene for us.

Besides - I don't play games to be 'ordinary'. My alternate reality middle earth is full of extraordinary heroes and villains in a way the Middle Earth Prime as recounted by JRR isn't.

We're all in our own stories and I choose to go with the flow and have fun because when it comes to a choice of lore vs profit lore is going to lose out every time.

[Angadan]

I'd start with what is being considered "lore" or "lore-breaking", on a semantic level, looking for private definitions and individual modifications. It's not a culprit every time, but often enough.

Yes, you're absolutely right. Delved into that a bit in the 20 Questions thread (https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...Battles/page17). Look at post 409, that's probably along the lines of what you mean.

[Angadan]

Hey I can one-shot trolls and my friends shoot lighting from their fingers and conjure giant trees to fight with them out of thin air. That pretty much qualifies as 'awesome' in my book. :-) ... I don't play games to be 'ordinary'. My alternate reality middle earth is full of extraordinary heroes and villains in a way the Middle Earth Prime as recounted by JRR isn't.

Yes yes, you are really rocking, you are smoking hot! You've just validated my point in a way I could never do without you, thanks very much! Just keep in mind that even people who shoot lightning from their fingertips put their pants on one leg at a time.

[Kongas]

DM: You are standing on the wall, looking at thousands of angry orcs and hillmen. They are storming the gate, carrying ladders, shooting arrows, waving swords and corpsejumping those who were not fast enough to flee. You are tired, thirsty, scared, wounded, suffering from a slight sleep deprivation. Some of your friends are dead, there's no way out, they blow up the stones with some devilry from Saruman. Next wave is hitting the wall in seconds.

<etc>

:-)

(and a whole bunch of characters to get the post length)

[Kongas]

Yes yes, you are really rocking, you are smoking hot! You've just validated my point in a way I could never do without you, thanks very much! Just keep in mind that even people who shoot lightning from their fingertips put their pants on one leg at a time.

Magic Pants that grant a bonus against Ancient Evil I'll have you know.

EDITED To Add:

The advantage of my more laid back, having fun approach is I'm not going to have my fun ruined by getting bent out of shape each time Turbine trample Lore underfoot. Which is pretty much every time they do something.

[daveamongus]

What, because Dwarves and hobbits wouldn't stand out among all those big, strapping Northmen types who live in Rohan? And I seem to remember that the player-characters are supposed to be heroes (super-heroes, really, given the plot of the game) but you're now trying to imply that at this one battle they're going to do so little of note that nobody will even notice them.

I knew Marines who were 5'0" and 6'4". Put them in body armor, running and crouching and crawling, among a thousand other Marines? You could not pick out the differences very easily. Much less at night. Again, it remains to be seen how exactly our PCs are going to be integrated into the battle.

The sort of OTT heroic fantasy the game engages in actually predates LOTR and even The Hobbit, it's got far more in common with 'pulp' fantasy written by the likes of Robert E. Howard. The trope of the solo hero overcoming all obstacles is notably lacking in LOTR, in case you hadn't noticed. Likewise the casual flinging about of magic.

I don't recall slaying any dragons single-handedly; nor, actually, doing much of anything single-handedly, as much of a soloer as I tend to need to be. In fact, at several points in the story recently, the NPCs have called out my character's defining strength as being able to get people to work together. They rarely (never?) praise my single-handed skill in battle.

Just out of curiosity, are you also one of the folks who complains about how so many of our quests are fetch-and-carry and literal and figurative fence-mending?

Not even close: those things cannot be said to simply fill gaps in the story because it is beyond credibility that they could have happened and not had consequences, nor passed unnoticed. Diverting resources away from Erebor when it was about to be attacked by Sauron? That would have had consequences. We know the Galadhrim did NOT attack Dol Guldur until after Sauron's fall, because there's a clear if very brief account of what happened in LOTR itself so that one is a straightforward (and significant) change. RKs are simply not credible (even if the idea behind them was even self-consistent, which it isn't, much less consistent with Tolkien's take on magic) because their existence could hardly have passed unnoticed for thousands of years, yet accounts of Dwarves in battle simply (and only, and always) have them going all medieval on the foe, not using any sort of magic (other than that in their weapons and armour). Draigoch? What, everyone just forgot to mention a dragon, of all things? People do tend to remember dragons, you know. And the people who kill them. Stuff of legend and all that. (Especially when they're so far off the beaten track for dragons, too). Real filling-in of gaps would be relatively low-key derring-do that might feasibly pass unnoticed among the general mayhem, not all this massively OTT epic stuff that Turbine are so fond of because it's exactly the sort of thing that people would tell stories about.

Diverting what resources from Erebor? The Iron Garrison came from Eriador side of Moria and entered through the Hollin Gate. I think they're explicitly said to have come from Ered Luin. Yes/no?

But, you want to get lore monkey? Let's get lore monkey. Now, in a narrative passage, it says that "after the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lorien over the Anduin in many boats." But then, in the timeline it says that on March 28, Celeborn crossed the Anduin and the destruction of Dol Guldur began. And by April 6, Celeborn and Tharanduil are meeting "in the midst of the forest." So, if you're correct, that's what... 8, 9 days to cross the river, fight through Southern Mirkwood, tear down Dul Guldur, and then walk halfway to the Lonely Mountain to take tea with Tharanduil? WOW. Mighty impressive. Or... again, invoking the conceit that every word of LOTR is written and compiled after the fact by explicitly named chroniclers, hobbits in fact who did not have personal knowledge of what went on there and were only hearing it, very likely, third-hand... Celeborn sent counter-attacks into Mirkwood, beseiged Dol Guldur, and killed or drove off some top leaders of the orcs there prior to final victory. Celeborn has not crossed the Anduin himself yet, and Dol Guldur has not been destroyed yet. You see it, at best, as splitting hairs, I see it as a neat and elegant way to slide some fun action into the uncertainty and gaps.

Tolkien didn't really, himself, have a consistent "take on magic." I find RKs to be fairly credible. The visual effects might be a tad over the top, but I think that there is power in words and runes, beyond simple communication, is a fairly significant theme through LOTR. And here's the thing about Tolkien's accounts of battle: they're often fairly vague. Rather vague, in fact. You can only get from him the basic nature of the battle, very few of the actual specifics. So, here's a challenge, if you want to be a lore monkey about what happened in Tolkien's battles: show me mention of a crossbow. (Then you can go on to greater heights and you can show mention of recurve bows, longbows, and for your crowning achievement, explicit mention of a trebuchet.) Then we can talk about how one thing or another might make such a spectacular difference in a battle so as to earn historical mention, and one or another be a significant leap in how we understand the level of technology available at the end of the 3rd Age. As a special bonus hint to what I'm getting at, I'll leave this here: Agincourt.

Within the lore itself, LOTR is written by the hobbits about their friends. If you can demonstrate how any member of the fellowship must have been aware of the existence AND defeat of Draigoch, I'll concede your point. But this is not 2013, and my character wasn't whipping out his iPhone so he could tweet: "0wnz0red Draigoch!! http://twitpic.com/blahblah" so my buddy Aragorn could reply "@daveamongus LOL! You go, bro!" You can't complain about the travel time restrictions, then lay out the expectation that medieval communication is so good that everyone knows everything of note that happens everywhere in Middle Earth as soon as it happens, no matter how few witness it.

You can't have continual epic goings-on and then try to pretend everyone forgets everything about them every single time. They're changes to the story, not things that fit neatly into gaps. There's nothing wrong with such changes in principle but to try to pretend they're not changes is disingenuous at best. And that's before I point out what should be the obvious fact that the player-characters couldn't 'really' have been involved in all those events because there simply wouldn't be enough time to do all the travelling that would be involved, at Middle-earth's true scale. The game's story is a fudge, which should make it even more obvious that you shouldn't try to treat it as something that dovetails neatly with the books.

Actually, as Sapience said, they're aware where they're bending the lore, so I don't think they're pretending anything. I'm taking the contrary position to yours because I find your view a depressingly narrow view of the lore.

But let me try another tack. This one's a little political, a little lit-crit, but... answer me this:

Other than the hobbits, can you name one character in LOTR who performs deeds of note who is not of royal lineage?

I can think of one.

[ColorSpecs]

uh, ok.

What? I caught the dude in a very obvious lie and considered calling him to the carpet for it, but then passed.

Tone is an extremely subjective assessment, one that is honestly hard to take seriously as a critique of a sprawling MMO. LOTR itself varies widely in tone, and trying to compare the tone of a 60 year old novel with that of a 6 year old video game is specious, to say the least.

You also do a terrible job of sticking to the subject at hand. The subject is lore, and specifically perceived contradictions to who and what was where and when, not tone. Nice try, though.

I feel your desperation, friendo. I can empathize; wriggling on the hook that I've got you on must feel mighty uncomfortable. I can always tell when the discussion turns, and the debate partner I've been engaged with realizes in his subconscious that he lacks the intellectual superiority over me that he thought he had. When he says "oh, well it's art, it's all subjective anyway" all the while lacking the self awareness to realize the same could be said of his own position. That's when his posts start to troll instead, usually joined in by others who hold his apologist view-point and sees him losing. All the while the ever vigilant community team remains curiously oblivious.

Que Sera, Sera. It's not like I expected to win this debate anyway. Turbine is long past caring about the source material.

But maybe you can explain to me, or someone can someday, honestly, what makes an apologist an apologist. Do you feel that you "get" something if Turbine likes you? I've never understood the blind devotion, personally. Turbine doesn't even respect their most long termed customers who play every day and spend more money than anyone. Why would they care about you and why do you want them to? General questions at this point. I'd be interested in anyone's response.

[Angadan]

(whole bunch of good stuff, ending with)
But let me try another tack. This one's a little political, a little lit-crit, but... answer me this:

Other than the hobbits, can you name one character in LOTR who performs deeds of note who is not of royal lineage?

I can think of one.

Wormtongue putting an end once and for all to Saruman! No, Farmer Maggot staring down a Black Rider! No, Tom Bombadil defeating a Barrow Wight prince as easily as you'd smoosh a fly! (oops, maybe he is royalty, who knows? lol) ... hmm, I'm going to have to go with ... Beregond denying his king to save his prince. Lol, sorry, I busted your point here I think, but it was just too tempting and fun to bypass. I agree with all else you said above it!

[Kongas]

Within the lore itself, LOTR is written by the hobbits about their friends. If you can demonstrate how any member of the fellowship must have been aware of the existence AND defeat of Draigoch, I'll concede your point. But this is not 2013, and my character wasn't whipping out his iPhone so he could tweet: "0wnz0red Draigoch!! http://twitpic.com/blahblah" so my buddy Aragorn could reply "@daveamongus LOL! You go, bro!" You can't complain about the travel time restrictions, then lay out the expectation that medieval communication is so good that everyone knows everything of note that happens everywhere in Middle Earth as soon as it happens, no matter how few witness it.

If you had a Minstrel in your party they'd have been singing the story the length and breadth of the land. Not instantly - but certainly when it's over and you're kicking back with the new King and your other friends in the Fellowship.

And probably a bird will have twittered it all to Radagast. ;-)

I'll get my coat.

[Angadan]

If you had a Minstrel in your party they'd have been singing the story the length and breadth of the land. Not instantly - but certainly when it's over and you're kicking back with the new King and your other friends in the Fellowship.

And probably a bird will have twittered it all to Radagast. ;-)

I'll get my coat.

You, sir, absolutely rock. I do love a person with a well-developed sense of humour.

[BirdofHermes]

Finally. So there is something in his other works that "fills the gaps" on that specific topic? Not Angmar, Iron Garrison or Mirkwood or other distractions - Helm's Deep, as in: defenders, numbers, races, places, order of battle.

It would be so nice to see something else than pieces of Two Towers. So... any specifics? Preferably something that does not need additional interpretation. Also - let's exclude any third-party books if they are based on TT.

Yes. The Two Towers, Return of The King - Appendices, History of Middle-earth Volumes I and II - The Book of Unfinished Tales, and History of Middle-earth Volume 8 - The War of the Ring.

True. But "omnipotent creator-god" works only for letters, interviews and other means of speaking about M-E without 4th wall present. Since Tolkien decided his books were written by "someone else" - and it's author's prerogative, not subject to interpretation - they no longer can be treated in the same manner. If he said books were what Bombadil wrote after "mistakenly" eating too many strange mushrooms, it would have the same effect: readers would have to deal with it or invent their own lore. Treating Red Book (and, to some extent, elements of appendices etc) as a set of imperfect accounts is the former - insisting they provide the exact and the most important details of what happened (or "omnilore") - the latter.

Forgetting is not the only possible reason. As for failing to mention "important bits", they can simply be not important enough in the eyes of narrator(s), who have simple goal (not only in HD): talk about Fellowship members and add PoV of royalty, which was something you could hardly exclude. We certainly know any Rohirrim warriors that distinguished themselves that day, did something extraordinary that would've been additionally inflated by the moment (so: in the eyes of those who saw it) and the meaning battle had for the country (so: later on, with the information being gathered for "songs"), were not "interesting". Hama died, that's about it. That speaks volumes about credibility of narrator(s) as "omniscient". Which is not even necessary, as they don't get that badge on principle: because Tolkien decided who the narrators were and that alone makes them flawed, limited and biased.

Correct. Which is why I rely more on his letters and HoMe instead in this particular case. But they only reaffirm what is already present in the Appendices and in The Two Towers, so in this case both sources confirm it.

Because we would still be riding back and forth between Laerdann and Golodir...

We are given several months to do this, time enough I'd say.

Why are our characters mightier than the Maia? When did we best a Maia (solo or even in a raid)? As far as i know, Balrogs didn't belong in Maia.
I haven't yet fought the last chapter of the Tower of Orthanc raid, as i think this is what you're reffering to. But do we really beat Saruman with only 12 people and not the help of anyone else?

Belryg, just like Sauron, were counted among Maiar. Whether or not they lost that title after joining Melkor is irrelevant, it didn't diminish their power or change their nature of existence.
Yes, we beat Saruman with only 12. Then we get a lame ending where he's so frightened he tries to knock us off Orthanc (which fails), and then the eagles take us away before we can finish him.
We also slay 2 dragons with little to no effort, we destroy a Balrog (and also a Balrog illusion), we defeat and/or scare off 3 Nazgûl (one ALL ON OUR OWN I might add), we defeat a wraith nearly equal to the Witch-king in power (four times over, that same wraith), we slaughter a few dozen 'lesser' Maiar, we kill wraiths on a regular basis, we can somehow banish hundreds of spirits by pointing a sword at them when others can not, we vanquish the Watcher in the Water, we kill the Gaunt Lords several times over during the story, we have to do the dirty work for a number of Maiar we encounter during our travels because they can't do it, we kill hundreds of Trolls and Giants, not to mention the several thousand orcs all on our own, we annihilate those monstrous, tentacled, Lovecraftian Nameless Horrors from the Void, etc.
We are beyond superheroes in this game, we're demi-gods. At the rate our power is going up, we'll be fighting Sauron in Barad-dûr and beating him in a 6-man instance.

Diverting what resources from Erebor? The Iron Garrison came from Eriador side of Moria and entered through the Hollin Gate. I think they're explicitly said to have come from Ered Luin. Yes/no?

No. They did indeed come from the West side, but only because they made a detour over the mountains to talk to Gloin (or Balin, I can't remember which of the two). They originally set out from the Iron Hills. Why they didn't just send some messengers over the Mountains is beyond me, but that's Turbine's writing for you.

But, you want to get lore monkey? Let's get lore monkey. Now, in a narrative passage, it says that "after the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lorien over the Anduin in many boats." But then, in the timeline it says that on March 28, Celeborn crossed the Anduin and the destruction of Dol Guldur began. And by April 6, Celeborn and Tharanduil are meeting "in the midst of the forest." So, if you're correct, that's what... 8, 9 days to cross the river, fight through Southern Mirkwood, tear down Dul Guldur, and then walk halfway to the Lonely Mountain to take tea with Tharanduil? WOW. Mighty impressive.

Thranduil had also been fighting off Dol Guldur. It is far more likely they met at Dol Guldur, since the text goes on to describe how they then divided the surrounding forest.

Tolkien didn't really, himself, have a consistent "take on magic." I find RKs to be fairly credible. The visual effects might be a tad over the top, but I think that there is power in words and runes, beyond simple communication, is a fairly significant theme through LOTR.

In runes, no. Runes are just a means of written communication. Runes can be used to convey/express/explain the meaning or the trigger for magic, but they themselves are by no means magical. If they were, any literate inhabitant of Middle-earth could use magic.
Power in words however is indeed debatable, because Sam uses words he does not understand to invoke great hope. That is however the exception in Tolkien's otherwise personal-nature based magic, hence being debatable. It is possible Eärendil and/or the Valar and/or Eru simply lent him the hope in a time of great need because they felt it was for the best. We simply don't know and that's the fun of the mystery.

Within the lore itself

, LOTR is written by the hobbits about their friends. If you can demonstrate how any member of the fellowship must have been aware of the existence AND defeat of Draigoch, I'll concede your point. But this is not 2013, and my character wasn't whipping out his iPhone so he could tweet: "0wnz0red Draigoch!! http://twitpic.com/blahblah" so my buddy Aragorn could reply "@daveamongus LOL! You go, bro!" You can't complain about the travel time restrictions, then lay out the expectation that medieval communication is so good that everyone knows everything of note that happens everywhere in Middle Earth as soon as it happens, no matter how few witness it.

Already explained twice now. The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings may have been written from the West's point of view, but many other novels and history books were not, nor were Tolkien's letters.

[staveisle]

[daveamongus]

What? I caught the dude in a very obvious lie and considered calling him to the carpet for it, but then passed.

You're so magnanimous.

For what it's worth, I've been playing since... just before Moria dropped, and I only have on 85. Your assumptions are...telling.

I feel your desperation, friendo. I can empathize; wriggling on the hook that I've got you on must feel mighty uncomfortable. I can always tell when the discussion turns, and the debate partner I've been engaged with realizes in his subconscious that he lacks the intellectual superiority over me that he thought he had. When he says "oh, well it's art, it's all subjective anyway" all the while lacking the self awareness to realize the same could be said of his own position. That's when his posts start to troll instead, usually joined in by others who hold his apologist view-point and sees him losing. All the while the ever vigilant community team remains curiously oblivious.

Oblivious is, I'm sure, the wrong word entirely. I don't think they're allowed to be oblivious of stuff that happens on the forums. Sitting on the sidelines, perhaps, but not oblivious.

And my response was very far from "it's all subjective anyway." Tone is very subjective. Textual analysis of the lore is rather less so. You declined to debate on the textual analysis level, so you took it to tone, changing the subject (then accusing me of changing the subject!), and flying right off into "full patronizing."

You're not nearly as clever as you think you are, and your rhetorical methods are about as subtle as an anvil dropped off a cliff.

Que Sera, Sera. It's not like I expected to win this debate anyway. Turbine is long past caring about the source material.

But maybe you can explain to me, or someone can someday, honestly, what makes an apologist an apologist. Do you feel that you "get" something if Turbine likes you? I've never understood the blind devotion, personally. Turbine doesn't even respect their most long termed customers who play every day and spend more money than anyone. Why would they care about you and why do you want them to? General questions at this point. I'd be interested in anyone's response.

Well, speaking for myself, it's actually out of empathy. Real empathy, not your sarcastic variety.

See, I empathize with people who work hard every day to create, to build, to offer something of value, and so I feel the "slings and arrows" of those who casually call them oblivious and uncaring. I also empathize with people who find genuine joy in a creation, be it derivative or original, adaptive or transformational, and again feel the sting of phrases like "blind devotion." It's hard to create, and it's hard to protect your personal joy, especially these days when everyone's opinion is flying at them from a thousand different directions. No matter what you make, no matter who you are, you don't have to look very hard to find someone calling you dumb, or lazy, or incompetent for creating this thing, or a sheep, or mindless consumer, or thoughtless, or lazy for finding joy in a particular creation. No one is immune from it, and I would guess very few have not felt that sting at some point or another in their lives.

That's not to say I think anything is above critique, or constructive criticism, or that anything gets a free pass. But what I have found is that there are few, very few who will wade into forums to defend things they love, be it their own creation or their personal joy, from those that seek only to tear it down, to defile it, to destroy it. I have enough criticisms over the game, even over its handling of the source material, but I have more than enough empathy to know that the people behind the game are attempting a difficult task, balancing the demands of a number of different "masters," be they explicit or implicit, and I'm sure they are only too acutely aware, as only creators can be, of the shortcomings of their work. And I know they do value feedback, as most honest creators do, but what they don't need, what no one actually needs, is to have their character attacked based solely on the jaundiced implications created in some anonymous commenter's mind.

You don't know me, son. You don't know where I feel blind devotion and where I grit my teeth and carry on despite misgivings. You don't know my character or purpose, my sense or my struggle, my intelligence or my ability. You don't know theirs either. And as much as I think they might like to remain oblivious to your words, to your disdain and scorn, to your pitiless dismissal of their best efforts, they can't, it's become virtually impossible.

Am I looking for a cookie?

No, no that's not why I do this. I do this because your words, to me, are like orcs in the Pelennor. Dirty, nasty, caring nothing for the effort or beauty of a thing's creation, for the joy of the people who choose to live in it and revel in it and find peace from the world there. And I want to defend it, because it's worth defending, because I want the people who build and create to find joy in my joy, to share in the wonder and peace and excitement that I find in what they make. I want them to know that their efforts are worth more than just a paycheck, and I want to let others know that it's okay to express their joy, too, to celebrate unafraid the things that they love, and not live in fear of the dark and pitiless words of anonymous commenters, lacking all true empathy, and their seemingly bottomless hatred for anything that they don't love themselves.

I'm doing this because I'm tired of mindless, destructive criticism. I'm doing this because I love this game, flaws and all, and I love the creators behind it for making it. I'm doing this because this game is my refuge, my Last Homely House, and I am sick to death of people calling me stupid for loving it, and I want to stop feeling like I need to be furtive in my love for it, out of fear of comments like yours, trying to make me feel bad for loving it, defending it, calling me an "apologist" as though that were a wholly negative term, an insult lobbed across like a challenge.

Challenge accepted.

[daveamongus]

We are given several months to do this, time enough I'd say.

Not even close. Someone cleverer than me, and very experienced with horses, worked out distances in ME and "minimum" and "average" travel times. Minimum assumes max travel speed is only sustained over a day or two at most, and even if you split the difference between the minimum and average, you still get stuff like 9 days (a third of a month!) just to get from Imladris to Bree. Never mind clear up into Angmar. Assuming no resistance or trouble on the road. See: http://www.theoriginalseries.com/traveltimes.htm

Resting on your particular "blindspots" with regards to the acceptable realism of the events of game and attacking others' is not very rigorous, intellectually. Understandable, but still, not actually cool.

We are beyond superheroes in this game, we're demi-gods. At the rate our power is going up, we'll be fighting Sauron in Barad-dûr and beating him in a 6-man instance.

So, if we're demigods, what does that make Bard? Slew a dragon with a single, well-placed arrow. Slew Smaug. What's Eowyn? Or Merry? Merry brought the Witch-King to his knees with a single blow to the "leg" and Eowyn vanquished him with a single stab to the face. I don't know about your experiences, but it took a lot more work than that just to get a Nazgul to run away, and more than just me. Heck, Aragorn scares him off in the opening cut scene with a torch and some flaming thatch.

Your hyperbole, while amusing, does not serve your point.

Thranduil had also been fighting off Dol Guldur. It is far more likely they met at Dol Guldur, since the text goes on to describe how they then divided the surrounding forest.

Try again, lore monkey. They met "in the midst of the forest." I'm sure they would have said if they met at Dol Guldur. And they split ALL of Mirkwood, not just the southern bit. Tharanduil was way up in the northern bit, and only took the northern bit to the west of him, while Celeborn took the southern bit due east of him, and left the great swath in the middle to the Beornings and such.

So, again, did they cross the river, defeat the hordes, and start destroying Dol Guldur on the same day? Then journey up to meet with Tharanduil? How did that work, exactly? You have all the letters and such, lay some knowledge on me.

Already explained twice now. The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings may have been written from the West's point of view, but many other novels and history books were not, nor were Tolkien's letters.

In brief, I am playing Lord of the Rings Online, not Lord of the Rings and Letters and History of Middle Earth and All That Other Stuff Online. Just to be very, very clear.

[Kongas]

Bard was clearly a pretty awesome shot to hit the single weak spot Frodo had told him about.

Merry had an dagger with enchantments deadly to the witch-king and Eowynn embodied the power of prophecy. I consider them all 'exceptional' people singled out and empowered to play the part laid out for them in the music of Illuvitar.

[Angadan]

They're demi-gods, I tell ya! Just ask Demi Moore, she can clear this all up. We are AWSUM-sauce. EDIT: ok that was lame. sorry.

[Kongas]

They're demi-gods, I tell ya! Just ask Demi Moore, she can clear this all up. We are AWSUM-sauce. EDIT: ok that was lame. sorry.

Demi Moore should know a super-hero when she sees one, if 'sees' is the word I'm looking for here. She was married to John McClane for God's sake.

[Ferthcott]

Yes. The Two Towers, Return of The King - Appendices, History of Middle-earth Volumes I and II - The Book of Unfinished Tales, and History of Middle-earth Volume 8 - The War of the Ring.

Perhaps my quick glance over appendices was too quick - but neither "The House of Eorl" nor "The Tale of Years" offers any significant amount of details that could decide the matter, the rest is focused on much different things (technically Appendices are also written by "someone else", though at least more competent than hobbits). As of Unfinished Tales, at least the part that treats about Third Age, I found a lot about Fords of Isen. And that's about it (interestingly enough, I am using two different sets of books, UT being a translation that does not, entirely, overlap with English version, so I admit you might have access to more material). It offers a decent amount of information when we are wondering what happened before the battle - but that's not a thing we were looking for, right?

Finally, Volume 8 contains earlier drafts of Helm's Deep. So... discarded, why would they matter? Even if they could show some intent, that intent can very well be considered discarded along with everything else. Then there's a commentary from Chris. He is neither the author nor has anything close to the "deity" level of authority over the matter, a priest at best. More, when compared with us, peasants, but still not enough to offer a definite statement. With that in mind, I didn't see any statement that could be valuable to the subject at hand.

Correct. Which is why I rely more on his letters and HoMe instead in this particular case. But they only reaffirm what is already present in the Appendices and in The Two Towers, so in this case both sources confirm it.

Again, HoMe contains earlier drafts and a commentary, so it can't "reaffirm" anything that matters (in some cases - even on the contrary) - and Chris is not John anyway. Appendices have little to say. Now letters... I have and went through Appendices and HoMe and, unsurprisingly, found nothing of value. Definitely not going to waste my time with letters, not to mention trying to get a hold of them. If you have a relevant piece, please provide it. After two out of three have failed to deliver, it looks more like you simply listed all good sources of information... but in general, not sources of a specific information on a specific topic. And I kinda deserve a small prize for reading through that tiresome mess HoMe is for someone not interested in linguistic exercises, even if only a small part of it.

[ColorSpecs]

You're so magnanimous.

For what it's worth, I've been playing since... just before Moria dropped, and I only have on 85. Your assumptions are...telling.

I will give you a dollar if you can tell me what my assumption is.

Oblivious is, I'm sure, the wrong word entirely. I don't think they're allowed to be oblivious of stuff that happens on the forums. Sitting on the sidelines, perhaps, but not oblivious.

And my response was very far from "it's all subjective anyway." Tone is very subjective. Textual analysis of the lore is rather less so.

Lol. I wonder, do you believe what you're saying or do you just expect me to believe it?

Thanks for the explanation, I appreciated at least the kernel of truth in there, that basically you find anything you disagree with as offensive. I missed though why you find it disagreeable. But it may be because you've veered so far off topic to try and find a defense for your position, a position that ultimately boils down to "Hey turbine, here I am, look at me!" that I skimmed in boredom. If you decide to actually debate points, then I'll come back to you. Let me know.

[Witch0King]

We are given several months to do this, time enough I'd say.

Well some were blessed with steeds, other with ponys. not to mention the need of a 2nd breakfast

[Ferthcott]

Bard was clearly a pretty awesome shot to hit the single weak spot.

He was more than awesome. "Normal" heroes, like ourselves, can only see "Immune" after using Bard's Arrow against much less than a dragon

[Mirnir]

Thanks for the explanation, I appreciated at least the kernel of truth in there, that basically you find anything you disagree with as offensive.

You should probably stop making this kind of thing up. It's not helping you make whatever point it is you are trying to make.

[Taravith]

So, if we're demigods, what does that make Bard? Slew a dragon with a single, well-placed arrow. Slew Smaug. What's Eowyn? Or Merry? Merry brought the Witch-King to his knees with a single blow to the "leg" and Eowyn vanquished him with a single stab to the face.

I'm not so sure it's the characters themselves that have exceptional powers (I mean, it's still just a regular arrow and a regular stab) but their fate that is exceptional. A lot of such events have always reminded me of the Iliad and its treatment of both prophecy/fate and aristeia: the "prophecy" of the Witch-King's death, Bard being helped by the thrush (especially seeing birds as messengers/avatars of Manwë in other works), the death of Theoden being another textbook example, etc.

Basically it's more of a narrative staple of western epic than something to take literally.

And in the game we are all but members of the fellowship, we're Gandalf's, Galadriel's and Elrond's Go-To guys. In the story we clearly are not 'ordinary'. And at the end, when Aragorn is 'praise himming' the hobbits I'm pretty sure there'll be a big shout-out cut scene for us.

Ever since this thread got started, the only possible completely lore-friendly narrative arc I could imagine was: you start as a regular Dale dude, and for a couple of years you eat, sleep and work until you're called to fight against the Easterlings and die from a stab wound on the battlefield. The end ~

Not sure that it would make for an entertaining game though.