Massively Helm's Deep news and pictures!!!

[ColorSpecs]

Not sure i understand.
There are arguably two or three traits per line that one would call "best" for a class which you maybe cannot get anymore in a single build.
If they would have changed the current system so that choosing two "best" traits from different lines would cause penalties so big that you would do yourself a disservice to do it then you likely would not.
While you wold still have the choice it would basically also move you into the direction of a cookie cutter build. I am aware it leads to cookie cutter builds.

Then we're in agreement, aren't we? Hasn't turbine said that the reason they are doing this, at least one of the reasons, is because they feel that too many people are using the same build and they believe this will way will lead to more customization? That's where the break in the logic for me is.. How long will it take us to very quickly identify which combination of point-spend will yield the best results? LIke probably Day 2 of launch. And in Day 2 and 2 minutes, it'll be posted here and we'll all start traiting that way - generally and out goes, nearly instantly, one of the main reasons they did this, all for nothing did they destroy one of the great things about LOTRO's customization, most admittedly flawed though it was.

At least if you spec into a certain role.
A lot of minis heal currently with 4y/3b. Some use 4b/3y. Some like the blue traits.
I like my 4y/3b. I expect this not to work as good anymore with the revamp i.e. I likely will not be able to get anthem duration and cd to the same levels without giving up more healing (which I already did anyway by not having 4 blues).
Something like this will happen to all classes.

Sure, I'm the same with my hunter. But we don't need to go to trait trees to accomplish this, this can be achieved by revamping the traits themselves. Nor will going to trait trees get you out of your 4/3. It may be that it changes the traits themselves, but the ratio could still be the same, or you simply find a different combination to meet the same ends that the 4/3 met.

You need to see that the revamp is not done for long term players but also for players coming new to the game.

I do see that most definitely. I do not think that's a good thing.

So what is your point then? Toon development past 60 should be just LI and gear grind?

Isn't that obvious? Invest the money in endgame to retain your players, rather than rehash and reshuffle old content to constantly churn new ones.

[Kaynith]

That use of Massively by the incorrect image with placeholder TP icons, has generated huge amounts of unnecessary bad vibes.

[bohbashum]

That's where the break in the logic for me is.. How long will it take us to very quickly identify which combination of point-spend will yield the best results?

they will probably be gating whole rolls behind trait lines. for example, champion. single-target dps, aoe, tank. a single-target champ will not be able to do any aoe. the aoe champ will do a little single-target but not nearly anything like the red champ. and ofc, tank.

in that, you can never ever say one line is better than another. the points in the line you probably could, and what you off-spec too will be personal choice of what you need a little off.

with retraiting still costing just silver and being able to be done on the fly. I assume we'll be quickly retraiting from trash to boss a lot. ofc, the aoe champs not great on a single boss. but all the adds before it will have needed aoe. Big battles will probably love aoe too.

Invest the money in endgame to retain your players, rather than rehash and reshuffle old content to constantly churn new ones.

instance cluster are the most expensive development process in an mmo. to churn them out regularly, we've seen they fall behind with time scheduals and end up comeing out very buggy in the process.

I think we have enough scaled content now, I agree. there are so many possibilities for new raids and fights. but content gets "out leveled" the content that spent ages to make is not wasted as soon as they level up. so making an investment to scale some of these up has made sure when we pop into a new expansion, there is always something different we could be doing, even is thats repeating an instances we've not done in months for a laugh.

I think atm it's more difficulty and the reward system that needs a look at. we have enough content and it'll feel newish with revamped classes for a month or 2. erebor cluster wasn't fun, but it didn't help the rewards were also terrible. such a kick in the teeth at what we've all been waiting for.

[Minquinn]

I would also like to add that the architecture at helms deep looks suspiciously like Isengard.

I think at least they could have used a few different shades of gray for HD.

[Zombielord]

Honestly I'm a bit worried the closer I look at this new trait tree ... The TP & Mithril coin icons tell me that having multiple characters is going to become pretty expensive in the future.

[Mirnir]

I would also like to add that the architecture at helms deep looks suspiciously like Isengard.

I think at least they could have used a few different shades of gray for HD.

Weren't they both meant to be fortresses built by the Numenoreans to guard the Fords of Isen from the North and South?

It might be odd if they were too different...?

[bohbashum]

Honestly I'm a bit worried the closer I look at this new trait tree ... The TP & Mithril coin icons tell me that having multiple characters is going to become pretty expensive in the future.

sapience said on facebook the screenshots they used were not the correct bunch.

here is an example of what it really looks like from sapience. (quote later)



the bar at the left side is probably set bonuses.

the bar at the right is probably how many save slots you get. not sure if thats how many you get default as we've been told 2 free, maybe they bought some.

Actually it's not. We stated repeatedly to the press (I know, I was there and actually typed it out in explicit detail) that the in game screen we showed them at the time of their preview was place holder and that the turbine point icons on the left hand column were entirely place holder art and would be replaced in the next build. Which we sent them a screenshot for.

THIS is the correct screen shot that we sent them after the tour. The skills on the left unlock as you progress through the trees. They're not gated by Turbine Points.

[Mirnir]

Honestly I'm a bit worried the closer I look at this new trait tree ... The TP & Mithril coin icons tell me that having multiple characters is going to become pretty expensive in the future.

You should have a read of Sapience's post.

[Crell_1]

THIS is the correct screen shot that we sent them after the tour. The skills on the left unlock as you progress through the trees. They're not gated by Turbine Points.

I've noticed that the icon on the right is a Mithril Coin icon instead of a Turbine Point icon for the additional Tab purchase. This leads me to think that the tabs will be a character unlock instead of an account unlock. Why aren't these being handled the same way as war-steed trait config tabs?

[thefamilyosc]

First off, if you read the thread you'd know those were placeholder icons and that massively used an old screen shot. Second, the mithril coin icon is only present in the saved spec line. We've known for a long, long time that we were going to have 2 free save slots, just like with MC, and that the rest would have to be unlocked with either tp or mithril. Looks like they may have chosen mithril, though that may change before live and become tp. If they keep mithril then it won't cost many players a dime to unlock all the save slots, as many established players have more mithril coins than they known what to do with. Even for those of us who either never had many coins, or like me found a way to spend them(I'm looking at you travel-to-quest-giver icon as I leveled far too many alts), it won't be a big imposition. With 2 saved specs most people will be perfectly set. For those of us who decide we can't get by with just 2 specs we still have the option of keeping one saved spec and using the other as a reset pt/respec slot for whatever untoward situations arise. Many may choose to unlock a third, fourth, of even fifth slot, but that is purely a matter of choice, of paying for a luxury or convenience. Show me proof in our one little picture of any further attempt to monetize the trait trees and we can have an earnest discussion, but beyond the regrettable choice of place holder icons in the massively pic, it seems people are making a huge issue out of absolutely nothing.

In any event people get too hyped up about the store. Except for the moors the store and lotro is really just pay for convenience rather than the dreaded pay to win cash grab that people freak out about. Say it with me, "TP does not equal the devil"

[Crell_1]

Looks like they may have chosen mithril, though that may change before live and become tp. If they keep mithril then it won't cost many players a dime to unlock all the save slots, as many established players have more mithril coins than they known what to do with.

Just because I have a lot of mithril coins, doesnt mean I wouldnt prefer an account-wide unlock option to a character-level option that mithril seems used for.

[angrolas]

I would also like to add that the architecture at helms deep looks suspiciously like Isengard.

I think at least they could have used a few different shades of gray for HD.

I need a lore-junkie to correct me on this but....
Isengard used to be a guard tower for Rohan, and was probably built around the same time as Helms Deep was.
So its pretty lore-accurate that they are similar in architecture.

But Helm's Deep just looks too colorful to me.... Perhaps it will look better at night

[thefamilyosc]

Nope, Isengard was build by the Numenoreans shortly after the fall. As their kingdom weakened they let Saruman use it, figuring it would be better to have an ally occupy it, ooops. As for a similarity in architecture I really don't see it I guess. Maybe a little bit in the color palette, but hard to do much differently when you're talking about using stone. The actual tower of orthanc was some form of nearly impervious jet-black stone, but the surrounding walls would ahve been quarried from stone nearby. Not too much of a stretch to assume that the stone used for building the Hornburg thousands of years later would have been quarried from very similar types of stone given their relative proximity.

[Minquinn]

I need a lore-junkie to correct me on this but....
Isengard used to be a guard tower for Rohan, and was probably built around the same time as Helms Deep was.
So its pretty lore-accurate that they are similar in architecture.

But Helm's Deep just looks too colorful to me.... Perhaps it will look better at night

Normally I won't argue with a Kinnie but it was built by Gondor I believe.

That doesn't excuse the lazy design we have been getting lately.

[bohbashum]

I need a lore-junkie to correct me on this but....
Isengard used to be a guard tower for Rohan, and was probably built around the same time as Helms Deep was.
So its pretty lore-accurate that they are similar in architecture.

But Helm's Deep just looks too colorful to me.... Perhaps it will look better at night

I *think* they were build by completely differant people. dunadain built isenguard, old rohirrim (more like gondor) built hornborg.

but tbh, though battles I *think* it would have been remade from the same rock quarries that isen got made from. so the stones and maybe who made finishing touches on them might have been the same poeple

the rocks also might look dark and that style because of the lighting, the last picture has it looking quite a bit differant tbh.

can't tell till we see it ourselves but I wouldn't be surprised if it's rehashed textures.

[Yulin-Gladden]

Isengard : http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/t/toweroforthanc.html

Hornburg : http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/a/aglarond.html

Both seem to be Gondorian in origin

[thefamilyosc]

I stand corrected about the Hornburg, though my original pt about the source of the stone still holds.

[Mirnir]

I *think* they were build by completely differant people. dunadain built isenguard, old rohirrim (more like gondor) built hornborg.

While Isengard was built by the Numenoreans in the Second Age, the best I can find at the moment for the Hornburg is:

Men said that in the far-off days of the glory of Gondor the sea-kings had built here this fastness with the hands of giants. The Hornburg it was called...(TT7:Helm's Deep)

Slightly confusing to me, because Gondor was established after the Downfall, but the references to sea-kings I can find all refer to Numenorean kings, not kings of Gondor. My view of this would be that it was also built pre-Downfall, and the mention of Gondor refers to the rather large settlement they had established on Middle-earth, before it became the Kingdom of Gondor, and so I think it likely they were built at around the same time by the same people.

The EofA article on the Hornburg says it existed some 3000 years before Helm, but does not give a source for that.

Perhaps someone can find something more definitive?

[YamydeAragon]

...I personally don't like such a colorful user interface. I prefer darker themes with less colors.

You can always use a plugin for UI with different colors, if upon release the new UI is too bright for your taste. There are several options for individual windows & the whole UI. http://www.lotrointerface.com/downloads/cat65.html

[monk_tbd]

Then we're in agreement, aren't we? Hasn't turbine said that the reason they are doing this, at least one of the reasons, is because they feel that too many people are using the same build and they believe this will way will lead to more customization? That's where the break in the logic for me is.. How long will it take us to very quickly identify which combination of point-spend will yield the best results? LIke probably Day 2 of launch. And in Day 2 and 2 minutes, it'll be posted here and we'll all start traiting that way - generally and out goes, nearly instantly, one of the main reasons they did this, all for nothing did they destroy one of the great things about LOTRO's customization, most admittedly flawed though it was.

What I remember is that they want people to be more specialized in their roles. So that a certain toon cna have three roles filled properly by speccing deep into a single trait line tree. You can spread but you will be much less effective in each by doing so.

I agree that it will lead to cookie cutter builds. However I do not see thatmmuch of a difference as to what it is now, a warden tanking uses mostly blues with one or two mandatory yellows, a mini healing at least 3 blues. Of course you could choose which traits to slot and you will lose some customozation as you have to trait into a tree to get the best traits but there is still an option to spend points differently to get different traits. As I said before you likley won't get the best from each trait line anymore (again my mini example where two of the 4 yellows were a staple for all builds for me and the other two yellows were meh so the two meh ones I likely still get at the beginning of the tree).
Granted I likely will not get my favourite two yellows anymore but if that is what the devs want - to force specialization - then there is not much we can do besdies either eating what we get served or check out another restaurant.

Sure, I'm the same with my hunter. But we don't need to go to trait trees to accomplish this, this can be achieved by revamping the traits themselves. Nor will going to trait trees get you out of your 4/3. It may be that it changes the traits themselves, but the ratio could still be the same, or you simply find a different combination to meet the same ends that the 4/3 met.

I do see that most definitely. I do not think that's a good thing.

Isn't that obvious? Invest the money in endgame to retain your players, rather than rehash and reshuffle old content to constantly churn new ones.

They have to cater to new players too. With HD there will be a 95 level wall to reach the endgame. With BB that can be done already from level 10 onwards.
They decided that the money lies not in endgame as much as in solo content. If you think differently then that is your view but surely not in line with Turbine's metrics.

Do I like it like this?
It depends, I surely do not like the single rng for each player, the massive farming going on of certain instances, the problems of bugs that reward people who jump on new content first until the loop holes are filled, generally the itemization and reward structure that rewards mindless gridning of the rng instead of constant rewarding to get closer to the cake.
I do like however the amount of time that goes into the story telling of quest lines. And while th lore helps to do that I still think it is made very well.
As long as scaled instances will not be again dps fests for grinding I am fine with scaled content.
And until I tried BB i will hold back any criticism about them although I am not too confident (given the solo hytbolt grind) but we will see.

Even though I am not too positive about all this I am still looking forward to HD and I am open to be positively surprised.

[Minquinn]

While Isengard was built by the Numenoreans in the Second Age, the best I can find at the moment for the Hornburg is:



Slightly confusing to me, because Gondor was established after the Downfall, but the references to sea-kings I can find all refer to Numenorean kings, not kings of Gondor. My view of this would be that it was also built pre-Downfall, and the mention of Gondor refers to the rather large settlement they had established on Middle-earth, before it became the Kingdom of Gondor, and so I think it likely they were built at around the same time by the same people.

The EofA article on the Hornburg says it existed some 3000 years before Helm, but does not give a source for that.

Perhaps someone can find something more definitive?

I believe you, though my sarcasm was aimed at the game textures looking remarkably similar.

I can't remember how far Dunland extended before the Gondorian land grant of Rohan. I believe it was in Gondorian control at the time of issue. I'm not a lore expert. For me seeing these places for the first time is epic. I was excited to ride to Isengard on the first day of release.
While the scenery does not bother me while playing for some it does.
For me It's more about gameplay.so the class revamp scares me most.

[Vandervahn]

That use of Massively by the incorrect image with placeholder TP icons, has generated huge amounts of unnecessary bad vibes.

The fault lies with the persons responsible for creating and releasing a mock-up featuring the most ill-chosen icon in the game. The lack of situational awareness by the ones´ responsible is baffling. Cant blame the press for picking up the ball and running with it.

When you´re being so super-protective of all specifics and then mess up your grand first peek, thats just funny.

Anyway, The potential for goodness is there. I actually have no problem with increasing character limitations again. Just hope the new dev guard can pull it off. Not impressed at all with the look of the fortress - I know this is a tired old engine, but this fortress looks like the venerable Quake II. Lets hope it gets a glimpse of life before release.

[Minquinn]

The fault lies with the persons responsible for creating and releasing a mock-up featuring the two most despised icons in the game. The lack of situational awareness by the ones´ responsible is baffling. Cant blame the press for picking up the ball and running with it.

When you´re being so super-protective of all specifics and then mess up your grand first peek, thats just funny.

Definitely up for funny post of the year right here.

I certainly would have preferred the screaming face that is every other button in this game.

[Iozeph]

remove your tin foil hat please and calm down.

read the posts here. think rationally. look at the picture. remember lotro is already in a ###### state. stop day dreaming.


depends what class tbh. warden is very cookie cutter at times. other classes have completely useless lines and completely useless traits. hunter for example, can live 100% play time in one line maybe changing 1/2 traits for raiding. that, is terrible, terrible depth in choice.


they have got rid of legandaries iinc. there at the bottom of the line now, capstones. I guess other lesser legandaries have just been converted into traits in lines. for example, you see the eagle picture in the blue line. you see the bog learker in the blue line. I suspect others like maybe hunters bards arrow and rain of thorns will be gated to yellow for example.

class traits are all on the picture I presume. no more

race and virtue traits are apparently having a little work over. but I don't expect much.

stats are a form of reward system. armor rewards bigger stats, biggers stats makes us happy. we're humans, watching numbers go higher seems to make us happy.

Read them. Rational, utterly calm, tin foil hats. Right. And who's making their arguments personal, then? Whatever. I'm only giving over what impressions all this advert-ese imparts to me -not valuations of your mental state. I know what human nature is. I know my loves and hates. And your condescending explanations aside, where grander stats and higher numbers come let's agree to not agree there.

To me, though, these trees yet reek of dubious change for the sake of change- a "feature" which isn't much of one- but only offered when an expansion is looming and such "features" are expected.

And in keeping to what I was on about - The hinted at trees -trees from games such as Diablo, World of Warcraft, and now lotro -through the Warsteeds menu- do not offer more choices than what we have for traiting now. Having set through my share of these games, as I'm certain you've done, I know trees of this sort gate the better traits/talents with the more rubbish traits which come before them. That's what I'm seeing of the dotted lines on the screen captures. Whatever capstones or milestone skills are gated by trait investiture now -or by tree investiture later- are irrelevant.

But of traits, with what we have now, players pick and choose as they wish within their respective sets -red, blue, yellow- without suffering those dotted lines. How is a talent tree having rid of useless lines other than to have you suffer through them to reach the "good deeper in?"

And you know what the good deeper in is- It's the minger defence.

-How is she?

-Oh, I don't know...

-Honestly...

-Honestly? Dog's bottom for a face but she's a wonderful wit, a glorious dancer, and whatever comes after it's drunk and lights-off, even so. Live a little, then, and never you mind the itching after.

No. Just... No.

Nothing of what I saw speaks to increased freedom to choose. It's why I'd said what I'd said, all rather calmly, that if such is the way pressing onward, why bother?

If characters are being shoved into more rigid roles, if the coming traits trees are bearing that in hand, then simply toss the trees and traits. Give the roles of classes on character creation. Make lotro more a third person hack/slash,shoot- or press buttoins whilst you watch that done sort of game only. Role your tanky, damagey, or healy character and off you go.

Why this fiddling with traits, though? Why this and why now to something which is arguably for the worse -without even saying "potentially" as there are enough examples of these trees to know what we're being handed- when the game is aging and has other, grander, problems? Why throw out that which works and not the terrible legendary items and their legacies? Both of which have done more havoc to class balancing than the traits they we're crudely thrown over.

Why again, when it's accepted with every expansion that we must destroy our older legendary items, and such a change would come far easier? Wouldn't the legendary item mechanic be the more throw-away of the two then? But no. Let's rather have new trait trees. Let's follow other games lead rather than leading, as that's done ever so well in a market filled with so many other failed clones and copies.

I'm not shouting here. I'm not saying the sky is falling. I'm saying that after Rise of Isengard, and after Riders of Rohan lotro needs a better makeover than trait trees. Send her to fatty camp, teach her to eat right, so she isn't crushing the breath of life out of every new boyfriend she sets on(later model PCs). Then have the extra hanging skin trimmed off her so she isn't a laughable flying-squirrel. That. That rather than leaving the emperor(Turbine/Warner) standing there not only naked and drunk, but come to putting lipstick on a pig and calling it a queen.

Let Helm's Deep be a triumph, something you want to call a friend and show off to them. Not something worthy only of slinking off from -ninja-stepping out the door the morning after, and with a terrible headache besides.

[Zombielord]

/Edit:


If the new trait system will indeed be like the one we've seen with mounted combat then everyone should be aware of the fact that you can't (!) max out the entire skill tree without using the store. If the character skill trees will work the same way then we're a huge step closer to P2W land.