Release Nov 18th

[Lohi]

My god the cost this year is worse then last year! To get the premium & legendary it will cost ya 100.00!!!!!

Then buy the basic edition. No one one is forcing you to buy the luxury edition. If you do buy it then it is your own voluntary decision.

[Lohi]

So... HISTORICALLY......

How much might the expansion end up being in TP?

Last year it cost 4295 TP. That is very cheap, since as VIP you will earn 6000 TP in one year. Thus essentially free for lifetime players and at no extra charge to VIP. Prices in dollars are not higher than last year so it seems reasonable that TP cost will be similar to last year as well.

[RJFerret]

Yes. Prior to this expansion the Epic Story line has been free.

That's not complete...

I've actually seen someone complaining that we're living up to the promise we made that the epic story line will always be free to all players.

I've happily paid, I want Turbine to profit and earn money, I've been VIP and purchased expansions and quest packs and other things, I've also brought along others who have spent money. I also purchased a quest pack I didn't need/want, when Turbine made a change players wanted, purely in recognition of that.

The key here isn't that the epic story line is no longer free. In my opinion, using it as a loss leader for so long wasn't the best choice. The key here is a promise was made, a commitment, and people invested their time/money/resources based upon that commitment, which is now being rendered moot.

The Epic Story in Helm's deep is very tightly entwined with the Epic Battle system. The story in Helm's Deep is the Epic battle we all know from the books. We've returned to the core story line from the lore and that line leads in a direct path, laid out by the Professor himself, into Helm's Deep and the battles and heroic deeds that occur there. As a result, this means the Epic story requires the purchase of the Helm's Deep expansion. Otherwise you'd not be able to complete it as it moves through the Epic Battle system.

The battles are not integral to the story, you can do the battles at level 10 irrespective of story according to Turbine's PR. This battle wasn't even significant in the book, it encompasses just a few pages (about a dozen in my paperback, half of a short chapter) and was predominantly handled by agents outside of the purview of the characters. They would have been defeated if not for deus ex machina. More tellingly, it's not even mentioned in the summary for The Return of the King! It's so insignificant, Tolkien chose to not include it.

Also, as has been pointed out many times, our characters were not there and don't expect to be there. Wildermore used interludes of session play that were entirely optional, the battles could have been that. Volume II ended with optional quests not part of the epic that have to be paid for separately, they could have been that as well.

It's obviously a design/management choice to break the promise/commitment.

Which leads me to offer my condolences to those affected most prominently by this breach of ethics, which is none of the customers, but employees and vendors who have also been promised things, I'm sorry.

[Ruination44]

At least they gave the reasoning for the book quests being tied to a purchase this time. For this scenario let's say that the books were free. A player goes through them up to the point where the big battles happen and is then re-directed to the lotro store to purchase them. Wouldn't those people be flooding the forums complaining that they're being forced to pay just to continue what they're already playing? It's far simpler to state from the beginning that it's going to cost something for the entire package.

Requiring a purchase to receive the book quests also adds a bit more value to the package people are paying $40-$60 for. Would it really be realistic to charge those prices if all they would be getting would be the battles and quests?

[Lothirieth]

The Battle of Helm's Deep is going to have to be earth shatteringly good or it's a $40 quest pack.

QFT.

There's another MMO that you can buy the entire game for $50, doesn't have any subs and is putting out new content every two weeks. That's just one example. Honestly, seems this is priced $10-20 too high. Or perhaps the Helm's Deep battle will be that epic. Based on history, I have my doubts but of course one can always be wrong.

[Hundolf]

...Quote of Sapience "we're living up to the promise we made that the epic story line will always be free to all players" found here https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...48#post5676848

RJ - thanks for hunting down that quote. I knew it existed somewhere and I'm glad it made it through the forum update. I'm a little shocked that they are going back on their word with regards to the epic story, not a lot shocked, but a little. I'll still pick it up on a Black Friday sale, but 20 bucks is the limit on this for me. Not due to funding limits, due to what I think its worth based on historic experiences with this game.

[k3nn3th]

Sapience... uh.

The Epic Story in Helm's deep is very tightly entwined with the Epic Battle system. The story in Helm's Deep is the Epic battle we all know from the books. We've returned to the core story line from the lore and that line leads in a direct path, laid out by the Professor himself, into Helm's Deep and the battles and heroic deeds that occur there. As a result, this means the Epic story requires the purchase of the Helm's Deep expansion. Otherwise you'd not be able to complete it as it moves through the Epic Battle system.

So how are level 10's participating again? Guessing you can start the Epic for HD at level 10.

[Lohi]

Sigh... what to do, what to do... LOL

To be honest, save the money and spend later when you have the info. Money has the capability of being saved and does not go rancid if you don't use it.

In general, pre-order is almost always a bad idea. If you want the bundles that is fine but note that the part that is exclusive to pre-order is a very tiny bonus. Ie, if you get heroic then you get the crystal of remembrance even if it is not a pre-order! Sure, if you're absolutely positive that you're going to buy the game anyway then pre-order doesn't hurt, but at the same time the bonuses are so trivial (xp bonus is pointless, war steed package is ok but you'll be identical to everyone else who pre-orders). TP purchase is the best deal as well if you have unused TP.

Remember last year when so many players were enraged merely one day later after pre-ordering? They said "never again!" Remember TWO years ago when players said "never again!"?

Never buy anything blindly, wait until you have full information.

[Kaynith]

I've actually seen someone complaining that we're living up to the promise we made that the epic story line will always be free to all players. I'm not sure what to do with that complaint at all. - Sapience

Well you won't have to worry about any more complaints AT ALL going forward that you are living up to the promise that the epic story line will always be free to all players. Isn't that liberating?

What's really odd is this statement is dated Sept 12, 2011. Exactly 2 years ago this day. Tell me that's not freaky-deaky!

[DanteIL]

Sapience... uh.



So how are level 10's participating again? Guessing you can start the Epic for HD at level 10.

I'm guessing it will be somewhat like the Moria/Mirkwood skirmishes. You can run through the skirmish scenario as part of the Epic Questline, or (once unlocked0 you can also run it as a skirmish independently. I suspect that level 10's-level 85's will be able to just do the "normal" Big Battles. The only difference is that obviously they won't have to be unlocked by the Epic first.

It's a bit screwy, I agree.

[Hundolf]

Well you won't have to worry about any more complaints AT ALL going forward that you are living up to the promise that the epic story line will always be free to all players. Isn't that liberating?

What's really odd is this statement is dated Sept 12, 2011. Exactly 2 years ago this day. Tell me that's not freaky-deaky!

That is freaky. I wonder if Lifer's are locked out of epic since it only comes in the expansion.

[JasonEvan]

Haven't been on in ages because I was specifically waiting to get this pack. I would have paid to get the pack and stayed f2p though just to do the Epic. I could go on and on about how many ones I have outright purchased and yada yada, but whatevs. This is a step backwards in terms of value. The fact that there isn't a $20 option without TP is flatout lame. At least offer the same value you have offered before. Offer the map quests as f2p instead then, if the epic can not be given. I have to pay $40 + a sub for this thing? For 10 levels of content? No thanks. Why am I saying no thanks? Because I 100% guarantee that those orcs in the field in that video are freaking sprites. We won't be in some huge scale battles. The engine can't handle it. Guess what happens if no one likes the Battle for Helm's Deep because of technical limitations? There won't be another new instance cluster for months and no one will have anything to play. I quit after the debacle that was RoI.

Also, who was clamoring for a skill tree? Anyone? If this thing ends up poorly done, is anyone going to have faith that they can do Pelennor Fields at that point? This isn't about money for me. This is about a change of philosophy and not replacing the value of a free epic with something else. It's a bad decision. I will wait and see what the player base has to say, how buggy it is and how well executed this stuff is on a technical level as well.

[Kaynith]

That is freaky. I wonder if Lifer's are locked out of epic since it only comes in the expansion.

From what I've read... yes. Big Battles are part of the expansion, and the epics go through the big battles. So lifers are in the same boat as the rest of the Premium and F2P players. Shell out for HD or no soup...err... Epic storyline for you!

[Crell_1]

That is freaky. I wonder if Lifer's are locked out of epic since it only comes in the expansion.

Why wouldnt they be ? Lifers have always had to purchase all expansion content.

[Fredelas]

I've actually seen someone complaining that we're living up to the promise we made that the epic story line will always be free to all players.

I think it's ironic that this quote was made exactly two years ago today.

[Shukar]

I'm thinking about the whole "Epic isn't free anymore" with Helm's Deep. While I thought that was a really cool part of the game... frankly, if you've gotten to level 85, you've got to have decided that you're committed to playing this game and like it. If you've gotten to level 85, you've probably purchased quest packs before. From level 85 on, you'll just need to purchase them all. Surely you'll have enough ways to get TP by then even if money isn't available. We can warn new folks that they'll need to save up for this after level 85.

Just as long as this doesn't start to be retroactive!

[zombie3000]

Just give us the ability to buy the quest pack, no turbine points, and no pre-order rewards, for 20$ cuse thats all im willing to pay... if not, ill wait till i get TP on sale, and buy this as a quest pack when it goes on sale

[Shukar]

That is freaky. I wonder if Lifer's are locked out of epic since it only comes in the expansion.

Only if we don't buy the expansion. Remember that Lifers get 500 TPs per month just like all the other VIPs... which is 6000 points a year. If you plan ahead, you can buy every expansion with points as it goes live. Or use the money you didn't pay in subscription fees to pre-order. Really, you don't need to worry about the Lifers.

[whitering]

These days there is a place called youtube where you can look and watch gameplay during a review. Yep I am really old and predate google and youtube and all that, but seriously, if you aren't sure, just wait, the pre order bonuses are not good enough to turn you from unsure about buying to buying on their own. For me, I bought, not because I am sure I will like it, but because I was going to try it no matter what, the game has been good enough for me to put that much effort into, plus I don't have kids who need the 100 bucks I could have spent on shoes.

[BackAgainAndThere]

If you're not supporting the game by Level 85 why should Turbine string you along any further?

I hope this means the level of quality in the epic is going to go up quite a lot.

Agreed, agreed. The F2P model should be designed to bring new players to the game who are prospective BUYERS, not bring players who freeload the entire way and just take up server space.

[Vandervahn]

...

The key here isn't that the epic story line is no longer free. In my opinion, using it as a loss leader for so long wasn't the best choice. The key here is a promise was made, a commitment, and people invested their time/money/resources based upon that commitment, which is now being rendered moot.

The battles are not integral to the story, you can do the battles at level 10 irrespective of story according to Turbine's PR. [...]

It's obviously a design/management choice to break the promise/commitment. ...

Nicely singled out.

One would have thought Turbine might have learned by now that the best way to deliver bad news is being straightforward and honest about it. Not only when players ask, and then with unfeasible explanations. The Turbine leadership is yet again offering Sapience as a pawn instead of being open about such a monumental change at least in "corporate commitment".

Whats wrong with "Hey guys, Producer X here. I know we always said A about the epic quest, but financial realities/a shift in focus/the constellation of Orion aligned with Alpha Centauri forced us to evaluate and change our position to B..." I dont even have a problem with the decision, business is business, but the delivery is off. I thought this game praises itself on its community. How about some reciprocal respect then?

[DanteIL]

The Epic Story in Helm's deep is very tightly entwined with the Epic Battle system. The story in Helm's Deep is the Epic battle we all know from the books. We've returned to the core story line from the lore and that line leads in a direct path, laid out by the Professor himself, into Helm's Deep and the battles and heroic deeds that occur there. As a result, this means the Epic story requires the purchase of the Helm's Deep expansion. Otherwise you'd not be able to complete it as it moves through the Epic Battle system.

Note that the logic could easily have gone the other way:

The Epic Story in Helm's Deep is very tightly entwined with the Epic Battle system. The story in Helm's Deep is the Epic battle we all know from the books. We've returned to the core story line from the lore and that line leads in a direct path, laid out by the Professor himself, into Helm's Deep and the battles and heroic deeds that occur there. As a result, this means the Epic Battle system will be available Free to players along with the Epic Story*. Otherwise you'd not be able to complete it as it moves through the Epic Battle system.

Of course, that would have meant that the Helm's Deep expansion consists of only the landscape quests, which would have raised an outcry of another kind...


*just to be clear, this is not true

[Crell_1]

Whats wrong with "Hey guys, Producer X here. I know we said always said A about the epic quest, but financial realities..

We're an understanding community that's won awards. Honesty goes a long way. How many people would have stepped up and said, 'Here, Let me buy <Cosmetic Fluff X> INSTEAD else to support the funding of this content. '? If we can get enough players willing to do that will you reconsider opening up this block of content?
I know players who bought the Premium Edition primarily for that shield appearance.

Croudfunded MMO content anyone?

[Mirnir]

An alternative implementation...

How about people who haven't bought HD can do the standard quest parts, but when it gets to the big battles, instead of taking part, they get something like this?

[Eartholloth]

Agreed, agreed. The F2P model should be designed to bring new players to the game who are prospective BUYERS, not bring players who freeload the entire way and just take up server space.

I still don't get the uproar over this. Don't most F2P buy the expansion with tps they earned in game??? If all you do is the epic line, your game play is quite boring.