Release Nov 18th

[whheydt]

On the subject at hand, though, I have to side with a lot of other people here and ask...if the Big Battles are part of the Epic Story and and "integral part" of the expansion (thus the reason we have to pay for the Epic Story), then why are people at level 10, who are nowhere near said part in the story, able to partake in the Big Battles? And, furthermore, does this mean that going forward that we will have to pay for the Epic Storyline?

It's a "one way latch". You can do the battles at level 10 (I suspect that not many will, except to test the concept), but to do the Epic, you will have to do the battles.

This epic quest thing to me sounds like the first case of an actual about-face of "we'll never do X".

Second, actually. The first was "LotRO will have NO form of PvP."

[RJFerret]

RJ - thanks for hunting down that quote.

I think it's ironic that this quote was made exactly two years ago today.

Your welcome and LOL at the irony, nice catch, I just went with the first link that popped up in Google about Turbine previously promising the epic storyline would always be free for everyone, totally not paying attention to the date, thanks for pointing that out, too funny!

[ironmountain]

J would like to know the real reasons of the leaving of Aaron Campbell, was he agree with all of that ?

[CrimsonBladeEU]

If they sold a optional $1000 version that included a platinum figurine of Frodo, someone out there would complain about it being the most expensive game ever :-)

Make it a figure of the Great Goblin and you can shut up and take my money.

[Mar-Evayave]

You're not just paying for the Epics though. They are part of the content.

I would expect these three books to follow in the same style as the three books of RoR, and thus should be better than the Dunland book.

-Bel

I too have high hopes for the new three books. The Dunland ones were a let-down. That one area in the north-east (I forget what it's called) and especially the prisoner sequence was great, but otherwise... O.o

I understand that this time around the epics aren't the whole thing -- far from it. It's just such a change from what has almost been tradition since f2p launched (or more specifically, since Volume II minus the epilogues was opened up) that it's a pretty big bump to get over without getting whiplash. xD

-----

Based on what others said... I'm even more surprised than I thought possible. It didn't even occur to me at first that players can join BB at level 10, and yet are somehow locked behind the epics? Catch-22 much?

Whats wrong with "Hey guys, Producer X here. I know we always said A about the epic quest, but financial realities/a shift in focus/the constellation of Orion aligned with Alpha Centauri forced us to evaluate and change our position to B..." I dont even have a problem with the decision, business is business, but the delivery is off. I thought this game praises itself on its community. How about some reciprocal respect then?

Gosh, after reading so much about HD I seriously needed that laugh. Thanks.

-New PvP map: They actually said they WEREN'T doing this on multiple occasions.
-Instances come with Riders of Rohan: I didn't have to pay separate for them, I got them with the Expansion
-The store is a convenience, no?

1) They only said that after having previously said they would, thus the "going back on promises".
2) They claimed the instances would come with RoR. Instead, half of them came several months later, the other half came half a year later. Granted, considering the number of bugs infesting the woodwork, they needed the extra time. But that doesn't change the fact that they said the instances would be coming WITH RoR. If I say I'm going to the mall WITH my friend, that does NOT mean I'll arrive there a few months later (much less expect my friend to still be waiting). "Part of" an expansion is a long ways away from "with" an expansion. They were part of, but not with. And as I recall, they only added them as "part of" after massive outcry in the forums. IIRC, they originally intended it to be a separate purchase, but changed their minds (and also added in TP to try and sweeten the deal).
3) Debatable...

[Eartholloth]

I too have high hopes for the new three books. The Dunland ones were a let-down. That one area in the north-east (I forget what it's called) and especially the prisoner sequence was great, but otherwise... O.o

I understand that this time around the epics aren't the whole thing -- far from it. It's just such a change from what has almost been tradition since f2p launched (or more specifically, since Volume II minus the epilogues was opened up) that it's a pretty big bump to get over without getting whiplash. xD

-----

Based on what others said... I'm even more surprised than I thought possible. It didn't even occur to me at first that players can join BB at level 10, and yet are somehow locked behind the epics? Catch-22 much?



Gosh, after reading so much about HD I seriously needed that laugh. Thanks.



1) They only said that after having previously said they would, thus the "going back on promises".
2) They claimed the instances would come with RoR. Instead, half of them came several months later, the other half came half a year later. Granted, considering the number of bugs infesting the woodwork, they needed the extra time. But that doesn't change the fact that they said the instances would be coming WITH RoR. If I say I'm going to the mall WITH my friend, that does NOT mean I'll arrive there a few months later (much less expect my friend to still be waiting). "Part of" an expansion is a long ways away from "with" an expansion. They were part of, but not with. And as I recall, they only added them as "part of" after massive outcry in the forums. IIRC, they originally intended it to be a separate purchase, but changed their minds (and also added in TP to try and sweeten the deal).
3) Debatable...

Gotta love when people give comparisons around here...

[Old_Relic]

Well the $60 pack is ordered.

Like most players I think its order now and if Helm's Deep does not work as claimed I will not be around to order the next installment next year, so I risk $60 and Warner Bros risk this business if they mess it up.

[Mar-Evayave]

Gotta love when people give comparisons around here...

:P What can I say? I love comparisons. I was told when I had some testing done (was tested for ADHD, Dyslexia, etc) that I have an exceptionally large vocabulary, and I enjoy making full use of language. ^_^

Here's one for you.

Coffeeology 101
1. Expresso yourself.
2. Stay grounded.
3. Take life one cup at a time.
4. Better latte than never.
5. Take time to smell the coffee.

(source: some place on FB that my mother was looking at)

[JTollers]

Agreed, agreed. The F2P model should be designed to bring new players to the game who are prospective BUYERS, not bring players who freeload the entire way and just take up server space.

No business is under ethical obligation to provide something for free. That being said, I was raised to either not make promises or keep the ones you make. I think generally people expect that level of integrity (Turbine does with NDAs). The players were not the ones who used the word "promise," the Turbine staff did.

[Belnavar]

No business is under ethical obligation to provide something for free. That being said, I was raised to either not make promises or keep the ones you make. I think generally people expect that level of integrity (Turbine does with NDAs). The players were not the ones who used the word "promise," the Turbine staff did.

Did Turbine actually promise that all Epics going forward would be free? If so, then I can understand player concerns (even from those who have already or intend to buy the expansion), as it is a matter of principle. That said, things do change, and sometimes when a promise is made, it is made with the current roadmap and plans in mind, not with what the future may bring (which none of us can, unfortunately, predict).

-Bel

[TinDragon]

Did Turbine actually promise that all Epics going forward would be free? If so, then I can understand player concerns (even from those who have already or intend to buy the expansion), as it is a matter of principle. That said, things do change, and sometimes when a promise is made, it is made with the current roadmap and plans in mind, not with what the future may bring (which none of us can, unfortunately, predict).

-Bel

They did. Pretty sure the quote was re-quoted somewhere earlier in this thread.

[Crell_1]

Did Turbine actually promise that all Epics going forward would be free? -Bel

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...48#post5676848

+Sapience's acknowledgement that they were living up to the promise here certainly would indicate that to me.

[Radbug]

Make it a figure of the Great Goblin and you can shut up and take my money.

Film Great Goblin?

That would be one impressive platinum chin scrotum.

/sold

[Belnavar]

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...48#post5676848

+Sapience's acknowledgement that they were living up to the promise here certainly would indicate that to me.

Thanks for that. You are right. The wording does seem to indicate it.

-Bel

[JasonEvan]

On the subject at hand, though, I have to side with a lot of other people here and ask...if the Big Battles are part of the Epic Story and and "integral part" of the expansion (thus the reason we have to pay for the Epic Story), then why are people at level 10, who are nowhere near said part in the story, able to partake in the Big Battles? And, furthermore, does this mean that going forward that we will have to pay for the Epic Storyline?

*Note: Not an exact quote, but I can't find the original one.

This is the million dollar question and one I would liked answered. The devs may have thrown Sapience under the bus over the never charging for an Epic, but the response about Helm's Deep being so intrinsically tied to the Epic should have been vetted better to conceal actual reasons more properly.

[Valamar]

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...48#post5676848

+Sapience's acknowledgement that they were living up to the promise here certainly would indicate that to me.

I"m sorry, but the URL that supposedly points to a quote about the Epic quest line DOES NOT.

Here's the quote that URL points to...

(September 12, 2011)
As GregJL pointed out Dn was only 'free' if you had purchased Moria (with cash by the way as it was the only option at the time). Currently we do not have pricing or a bundle that is 'the expansion' for Isengard in the LOTRO Store, nor will we until after update 5 releases and we can actually create that package with the instances included. So again, all the pricing you are looking at is a la carte.

So once again I'll remind everyone that trying to compare a la carte pricing to package/bundle pricing isn't really a valid way of doing things.

Also, trying to compare a nearly 3 year old expansion and pricing to an as yet unreleased expansion is also a bit of apples and oranges. If you want me to guess what Isnegard pricing and bundles will look like in two years, I'm going to have to beg off. I really wouldn't have clue one.

I've actually seen someone complaining that we're living up to the promise we made that the epic story line will always be free to all players. I'm not sure what to do with that complaint at all.

I can appreciate that there were assumptions made that turned out not to be accurate and that that's caused some confusion, but please let's try to keep the discussion to the facts as they are known and not rumor, speculation, or assumption.

If someone can come up with the actual quote, it would make interesting reading.... but this one has nothing to do with the Epic quest line, Free or otherwise.

[Nymphonic]

That is freaky. I wonder if Lifer's are locked out of epic since it only comes in the expansion.

I would say yes, we've always been required to pay for the expansions and their content. And this year, the epic is in the content. For me it's ok, because I get the xpacs every year regardless.

[Khafar]

/ignores the gripe-fest

I used my stipend to buy Rohan last year, but because the pre-order goodies seem good and Turbine wisely decided to include pretty much anyone who buys this expansion in the most compelling content this time (no matter their playstyle or even level...), I'm going whole hog this year. Premium + Legendary Pack: putting my money where my mouth is. (The purchasing process seemed much more professional and fast this year - thanks for that).

Not sure if I'll use the ticket to the Hobbit movie or not, but I probably will - my kids will want to go, no matter what PJ does with the story .

Khafar

[Valamar]

Wrong. There is a myriad of places between the "pure" F2P status and the lifer that has it all.
There are lots of people that regularly pay, but do NOT own all the QPs and expacs.

The change in handling the epic sets a nasty precedent for the future. Because previously anyone could at least travel and follow through all zones and follow the main story without buying everything. You could for example elect to not buy Mirkwood, but at least see it and follow the important points through the epic quest. Which Turbine religiously touted as their MAIN selling point for F2P and select-purchase.

If Turbine follows the HD model in the future, all following content will be cordoned off unless you buy everything there is. Goodbye select-purchase then, we´re back to a subscriber-only-with-a-twist game.

There's a lot of theory here, and no facts.
Sadly, Time Warner (Turbine) won't provide us with the facts, so we have to make them up as we go along to suit our arguments.

The only fact which we know for certain, at least today -- Turbine is "an ongoing concern" -- that is to say, an apparently successful business division that makes money for it's parent company, Time Warner, inc.

Turbine has chosen to expend some number of dollars on the continuation of the MMO known as LOTRO. (Turbine does have three other "older" products, DDO and AC1/AC2 and a third yet to be released, IC.) We have no idea what their budget looks like, but every one on these forums confidently states that Turbine spends no money on fixing bugs or old content... only on creating new content. In this case "Helm's Deep." So, that implies that the financial model for LOTRO is pretty thin. That possibly implies -- only Lala's Store keeps LOTRO afloat, i.e. all of the "pay to play" goodies sold in the LOTRO Store.

Again, we have no idea how successful, if at all, from a Dollars and Cents point of view, the Riders of Rohan expansion was. Or put another way... how many expansion packs were purchased, and was that a large enough number to cover the development cost.

To hear people in these forums posting it seems pretty clear that there were not many expansions sold, implying that in fact, the Riders of Rohan expansion did not cover its development costs. All we do know is that there were Layoffs and Management changes after its release.

So, such "stumbles" in income projections are not infrequent in business, and besides it was during a major de-recession, when expendable income was tight.... so they get to try again. Mr. Deep Pockets (i.e. the Warner Brothers Interactive Parent) has willingly "fronted" them monies to "do another expansion." But, like the IMF, WB expects "financial responsibility." What does that mean?
Mainly it means... project the number of copies you expect to sell, divide that number into the total cost of Development, and you get the absolute minimum price per copy of the Expansion. Factor in a profit margin, cookies and rum for RockX and Sapience, and the price goes up.

So, how many employees does Turbine have who are "dedicated" to LOTRO? 10, 100, 1000? How much does it cost to run the Data Centers, and pay the ISP bills? Add those costs in and the price per copy keeps going up.

So, how many copies of Helm's Deep does it take to break even?

At $60.00 per copy 1,000 copies sold generates $60,000. -- that probably doesn't even cover 1 person's salary.

100,000 copies generates $6,000,000 -- not a lot of money to run a major business on.

So, we flip the question around -- how many people play LOTRO? Again, Turbine won't tell us, so we have to make-up our own numbers.

We know there are 29 Worlds. Making up numbers based on Lux Aeterna's graphs, it looks like the lowest number of logins is about 100,000 per server with "average peaks" around 300,000 per server. So lets say that translates into 100,000 unique users logging into 29 servers every week... 2,900,000 accounts. Remember, I'm making these numbers up out of thin air, the real numbers could be much more or much less. Turbine won't tell us.

So, $60 x 1,450,000 (half of our 2,900,000 players) = $87,000,000. Is that enough to cover development costs, and the ongoing costs of keeping LOTRO running?

Compare that to the US Government which spends $434 million per HOUR!

WB paid $160 million for turbine in 2010. That year Turbine apparently had revenues of $20 million, and 140 employees.
Implying that my made-up numbers are overly optimistic. So, lets say that all $20 million is from LOTRO, ignoring DDO/AC1/AC2. Divide $20,000,000 by $60 and we get 333,333 paid copies of Helm's Deep.

Obviously, we can continue this exercise ... how many employees make how much (including benefits) .... etc.

But other than fun while waiting for the next beta.... it's all an exercise in futility -- we have no data to project with.

[Svella]

If someone can come up with the actual quote, it would make interesting reading.... but this one has nothing to do with the Epic quest line, Free or otherwise.

I've actually seen someone complaining that we're living up to the promise we made that the epic story line will always be free to all players. I'm not sure what to do with that complaint at all.

"... the promise we made that the epic story line will always be free to all players ..."

How is this, which you quoted yourself, not about the epic story (=quest) line ?

[LagunaD]

WB paid $160 million for turbine in 2010.

I wonder what they'd sell it for in 2013?

Interesting to fantasize about we, the players, buying out LotRO.

Unfortunately, we'd have to buy the rest of Turbine, including DDO and whatever else comes with it (not a dig at DDO, I am just not interested in owning it).

Obviously, it would take 160,000 people, each putting up $1K, or 16,000 people, each putting up $10K, to cover the price WB paid. Assuming we paid cash, of course.

Buying it on credit looks more feasible, as you could maybe envision a smaller number of people putting together a down-payment and being able to afford to spend a bit more over time.

Still much easier if one of us wins the Lotto, I suppose, and more likely too...

[Eartholloth]

For population numbers, your gonna get a more accurate number by doing a whois search from the social panel & adding up the levels. I have done this several times during prime time & most of the time, there is quite a bit of difference in population numbers from the whois search to glff. The whois search having the higher number of players then in glff. For example one evening I counted up the players on Meneldor, there was not even 200 in glff but over 750 from the whois total. Usually the servers are at least double if not more then what's in glff. This is a prime example why people should not use glff for population numbers.

[angus_hunter]

There is no choice about the new class system,
That was a waste of 1.5 years of learning Mini, down the drain

[Radbug]

I wonder what they'd sell it for in 2013?

Interesting to fantasize about we, the players, buying out LotRO.

Unfortunately, we'd have to buy the rest of Turbine, including DDO and whatever else comes with it (not a dig at DDO, I am just not interested in owning it).

Obviously, it would take 160,000 people, each putting up $1K, or 16,000 people, each putting up $10K, to cover the price WB paid. Assuming we paid cash, of course.

Buying it on credit looks more feasible, as you could maybe envision a smaller number of people putting together a down-payment and being able to afford to spend a bit more over time.

Still much easier if one of us wins the Lotto, I suppose, and more likely too...

Isengard bids 5...

[Eliahnus]

plus I don't have kids who need the 100 bucks I could have spent on shoes.

Well, I do have kids and 2 of them are playing LOTRO. I'll buy the premium edition for myself and the base edition for both of them, which will cost me 126€ which is about 170$. I guess I will yet again have some explaining to do to my wife.