Release Nov 18th

[Lynchpin13]

Well, you would think every new expansion would be the worst selling, because not everyone who bought the previous expansion will.

I guess you can maybe skip Mirkwood pretty easily, since it's out of the way and only a 5 level cap (which you can easily do in Enedwaith), but Isengard and Rohan are kinda needed.

Levelling is never an issue, you can hit cap super fast just spamming skirmishes. The lack of compelling content after you grind out an increasingly meaningless 10 levels is.

Turbine has failed to deliver a decent endgame since RoI(where it was nothing to write home about) and big battles sound about as stupid and boring as the unimaginative title(seriously Big Battles was the best thing they came up with?!).

You pay $40-100 for what is essentially a single player game with sub-par story, questing and graphics compared to the top single player RPGs of today. What few MMO aspects have made it this far are getting the chop for HD.

The worst part is that someone who gets to make decisions is deluded enough to think this product is getting better when it's essentially on life support.

[Thorgrum]

So who else thinks it'll be the worst selling expansion in LOTRO history? Most people I know are done once RoR is over and the game is undeniably going downhill.

This isn't an expansion it's more like a $15-$20 DLC or big questpack to put it in lotro terms either way $40 is just not good value for money especially with aggravation of the store added in.

If the class changes are a train wreck, the next expansion will be the worst selling in lotro history.

[TroyW]

This is lame and stupid. I have been a part of this game for 3 years and own about everything. The content has been dumber and dumber...easier and easier. The game has little to offer at this point and bad decisions by turbine are forcing people like me to find something else to do. This may just be the last nail in the coffin for lotro.

[Kaynith]

If the class changes are a train wreck, the next expansion will be the worst selling in lotro history.

Well apparently we the players were just CLAMMORING for these class changes.

So I ask ye... anyone? ANYONE? Did anyone here or anyone you talk to request any of this? I know I sure didn't.

[Elisawen]

Well apparently we the players were just CLAMMORING for these class changes.

So I ask ye... anyone? ANYONE? Did anyone here or anyone you talk to request any of this? I know I sure didn't.

Well, I know I asked specifically for Hello Frodo Online.

/sarcasm off

[Fralin]

I'd give a lot to know how current pre-orders are doing as well as a comparison to previous x-pacs

[Khafar]

Did anyone here or anyone you talk to request any of this? I know I sure didn't.

I'm probably not typical, but I'm looking forward to them. Why? Because I get bored when I feel like I know game mechanics well - once I know the game's patterns inside and out, I start to lose interest. One of the reasons I have many characters is simply because trying a new class offers me an opportunity to learn something new, and once I've played them long enough so they're familiar, boredom sets in.

Class changes give me a reason to pull out various characters I essentially stopped playing years ago, and re-evaluate. See what's new, what's changed, what adjustments need to be made. That's fun for me.

Anyway, Turbine may have other reasons for this, like trying to appeal more to new potential customers, or reworking/simplifying things so they're more maintainable (fewer bugs and balance issues). I talked to a friend who worked on SWG once upon a time, and he told me that their simplification of professions (NGE) was really a matter of survival for them. The system they had was simply far too complex, far too brittle, far too buggy. Every change they made broke several other things, and they couldn't function properly - it had to change. It's almost certainly not that bad here, but there might be a bit of that going on.

Khafar

[ShotgunStalker]

Levelling is never an issue, you can hit cap super fast just spamming skirmishes. The lack of compelling content after you grind out an increasingly meaningless 10 levels is.

Turbine has failed to deliver a decent endgame since RoI(where it was nothing to write home about) and big battles sound about as stupid and boring as the unimaginative title(seriously Big Battles was the best thing they came up with?!).

You pay $40-100 for what is essentially a single player game with sub-par story, questing and graphics compared to the top single player RPGs of today. What few MMO aspects have made it this far are getting the chop for HD.

The worst part is that someone who gets to make decisions is deluded enough to think this product is getting better when it's essentially on life support.

Wait, can you really level that fast? Could you tell me how?

[Thorgrum]

Well apparently we the players were just CLAMMORING for these class changes.

So I ask ye... anyone? ANYONE? Did anyone here or anyone you talk to request any of this? I know I sure didn't.

Well yes and no. No I don't recall people asking for class rewrites and trait trees. Yes I recall people asking for skill consolidation, however not en masse. I played creep for about a year straight and whined and QQ'd as loud as anyone, I then took about 6-9 months off from the game. I came to realize my QQ days were largely wasted effort. Turbine, good and bad, has a vision for its product. What the players want is largely irrelevant as long as turbine dosent negatively impact the game to a high degree. Now the lag, that's a big one I know several people who don't play anymore because of it (and the lack of it being fixed). The class changes could be a massive improvement or a mess. If its a mess that's not good for anyone, at the end of the day I like being in middle earth, turbine allows me to do that. The F2P model allows for new people to keep coming in, I don't know what their retention rate is but I suspect in the coming year thousands will try LOTRO, never having had exposure to the old system, some will stick. So it goes....

[Kaynith]

I'm probably not typical, but I'm looking forward to them. Why? Because I get bored when I feel like I know game mechanics well - once I know the game's patterns inside and out, I start to lose interest. One of the reasons I have many characters is simply because trying a new class offers me an opportunity to learn something new, and once I've played them long enough so they're familiar, boredom sets in.

Class changes give me a reason to pull out various characters I essentially stopped playing years ago, and re-evaluate. See what's new, what's changed, what adjustments need to be made. That's fun for me.

So, for you, irrespective of the content and new material to play through, being familiar with a class = boredom for you? If this is the case, mayhap ye need to play a few other MMOs on the side in addition to this one. That'd even out a few things and ensure that familiarity and thereby boredom, happens much slower.

Personally, class changes annoy the snoozles out of me. If I work to get good at something, I like to enjoy the benefits of the effort I've put in. If I worked on becoming good at something IRL, I don't become bored with it once I've become good at it. I'm darn good at cooking. Have I become bored with it? Absolutely not. It means my food tastes better and I'm able to do things that most average cooks couldn't even imagine.

The same is true with a class. Once you know it inside and out, things that most people think can't be done, become possible.

I enjoy the reaction I get when my RK, spec'd straight DPS redbar, can still managed to shell out DoTs and still keep a raid party alive.

As for Champions, my oldest and dearest class... what can I say. First they took our shields without our permission, making it so a quest reward that was in my inventory for years was equipped one day and unusable the next, then they changed things with revisions so the class was almost unrecognizable. Now, based upon reading the dev diary, I hear that Dire Need and Second Wind, both skills I use frequently will be down different trait trees and you'll have to put points into it to use it. I don't see these changes as an improvement. I see it as reinventing the wheel, when the wheel only needed a bit of polishing.

[Kaynith]

Well yes and no. No I don't recall people asking for class rewrites and trait trees. Yes I recall people asking for skill consolidation, however not en masse. I played creep for about a year straight and whined and QQ'd as loud as anyone, I then took about 6-9 months off from the game. I came to realize my QQ days were largely wasted effort. Turbine, good and bad, has a vision for its product. What the players want is largely irrelevant as long as turbine dosent negatively impact the game to a high degree. Now the lag, that's a big one I know several people who don't play anymore because of it (and the lack of it being fixed). The class changes could be a massive improvement or a mess. If its a mess that's not good for anyone, at the end of the day I like being in middle earth, turbine allows me to do that. The F2P model allows for new people to keep coming in, I don't know what their retention rate is but I suspect in the coming year thousands will try LOTRO, never having had exposure to the old system, some will stick. So it goes....

I think ye are absolutely correct Thorgrum. With the next Hobbit movie coming out, thousands more will try LOTRO, and will never have seen the old trait system. HD is coming out before the movie, after all.

Then a whole crop of new folks will flood in. Not having any criteria for differentiation, and seeing trait trees similar to SWTOR, Rift, and WoW, many will feel quite at 'home', and will stay.

I get the sneaking feeling that this is all about drawing new players in, and to heck with retention of existing players. We're all very replaceable and have far too long of a memory for their tastes, I'd reckon.

I'd venture that HD wasn't designed with endgame players in mind. No raids, instances, or skirmishes. And level 10s can participate with level 95s. XD

My guess it was geared to draw new folks in. Constantly. Though one part perplexes me. I can't for the life of me imagine why they wouldn't give players at least a 'taste' of Big Battles. If it truly is the be all and end all crowing achievement thus far in LOTRO, wouldn't this draw even MORE players in and make them want to buy the expansion? It makes no logical sense to me.

[Khafar]

being familiar with a class = boredom for you?

Yep. And once I ran out of new classes to play, I started playing other MMOs with some regularity. TOR's classes were so similar between factions and there were so many shared mechanics across classes that I grew bored with those faster than usual - it was really only the class story lines which held my interest, but even those only lasted 10 months or so.

If I work to get good at something, I like to enjoy the benefits of the effort I've put in.

I agree when it comes to real-life skills, but not for games. I'm guessing that's because the "problem space" for most games is quite limited compared with real-life activities. At least for me, Koster's Theory of Fun book nailed my own experiences - once I've figured out the patterns, mechanics, and math behind a game, I lose interest in it. Most single-player games are simple enough that the 1-4 weeks I spend playing them are just about right... by the time I've played that long, it's pretty clear just how everything works, and something that seemed great fun several weeks ago is now collecting dust. I do go back and play some older games(i.e. 5+ years prior) now and again, mostly because I've since forgotten how everything worked .

Anyway, once these class changes arrive, I'm probably going to spend the entire next year re-learning classes I've mostly mothballed in LOTRO (along with the ones I still play more regularly). Looking forward to it.

Khafar

[Thorgrum]

I think ye are absolutely correct Thorgrum. With the next Hobbit movie coming out, thousands more will try LOTRO, and will never have seen the old trait system. HD is coming out before the movie, after all.

Then a whole crop of new folks will flood in. Not having any criteria for differentiation, and seeing trait trees similar to SWTOR, Rift, and WoW, many will feel quite at 'home', and will stay.

I get the sneaking feeling that this is all about drawing new players in, and to heck with retention of existing players. We're all very replaceable and have far too long of a memory for their tastes, I'd reckon.

I'd venture that HD wasn't designed with endgame players in mind. No raids, instances, or skirmishes. And level 10s can participate with level 95s. XD

My guess it was geared to draw new folks in. Constantly. Though one part perplexes me. I can't for the life of me imagine why they wouldn't give players at least a 'taste' of Big Battles. If it truly is the be all and end all crowing achievement thus far in LOTRO, wouldn't this draw even MORE players in and make them want to buy the expansion? It makes no logical sense to me.

I think the scope of the rational has to be a bit bigger. Its not just to bring in new players but to generate enough revenue to continue to produce the product. The game costs money to make and maintain, regardless of what we think they should or shouldn't do its their creation they have to keep it going. End game for me has always been the moors, I find the instances to be redundant and not challenging beyond "how much of a hit can you absorb". I concede it wasn't always like that but here we are. My conclusion is they aren't producing the games expansions based on what people don't want. I suspect they have market research and have made calculated choices to retain some, gain some but make the title easier for all. Its been dumbed down a lot, its sad but understandable at the same time. The answer to your last question, I don't know. I suspect the upfront sales are desired but the consumer who spends 19.99 in the store on quest packs is also ideal. 6 months from now some of those F2p people are going to buy the HD quest pack on sale in the store. A sale is a sale afterall.

[Khafar]

I get the sneaking feeling that this is all about drawing new players in, and to heck with retention of existing players. We're all very replaceable and have far too long of a memory for their tastes, I'd reckon.

More like "we're far pickier and more costly to please". They'd never say anything like that in public, but I'd honestly be surprised if that weren't ever discussed in private (because it's true). Still, I don't think that's the primary force behind putting their effort into "Big Battles". By their own admission, raiders are a pretty small percentage of their players, and are consuming what's far and away the most costly content to produce and test. I think they'd have to be loony to keep on keeping on with that situation post-layoffs.

Big Battles are about trying to offer endgame to a much broader set of customers, and selling the expansion to more people. Most expansions pretty much ignore newer players, giving them absolutely zero reason to buy them. This one won't. The quest content is still level 85+, but at least one of the main attractions will include pretty much everyone. Also, it should be easier to find groups once people can auto-scale to 95.

Khafar

[Lohi]

Well apparently we the players were just CLAMMORING for these class changes.

We have class changes all the time, it's no big deal. We had a huge class change with Moria, with lots of complaints, more than we have now as I recall. But today people look back on those changes as being perfectly normal.

[Kaynith]

Also, it should be easier to find groups once people can auto-scale to 95.

Khafar

Oh aye...

No offense to any new player intended, but I can see it now...

Level 10: "Hey, I just joined this game two hours ago. Wanna do BB?"

Level 95: "The Valar take me!"

:P

My opinion: Grouping is hard enough without there being 85 levels between skill sets of the players. Enough folks get to 85 and still not know how to play their toon other than autoattack, and facerolling. And this is supposed to make grouping more fun and exciting? Hmm...

I don't mind playing with new folks. I do so all the time, on my lower level toons. But playing with people who have absolutely zero clue what they're doing, on an at level battle, with my endgame toon? Color me unconvinced.

[Khafar]

No offense to any new player intended, but I can see it now...

I fully expect we'll see our share of elitist "endgame snobs" once this arrives. However, other people are just out for fun, and aren't going to throw a hissy fit if some newbie causes them to get a low score on Big Battles. Other games have done auto-scaled content, and this one can as well.

Khafar

[ValcyrVexx]

Well apparently we the players were just CLAMMORING for these class changes.

So I ask ye... anyone? ANYONE? Did anyone here or anyone you talk to request any of this? I know I sure didn't.

The class changes are the one reason I haven't pre-ordered yet. If they fundamentally change the way I play my class and the things I can do, there's really no reason for me to stick around anymore. I'm the last one in my guild left, I'm only still messing around with it because I've always loved the game. If they change my classes too far from what I can do with them now I'm done.

[DaviSalles]

I am really liking the way the class changes are looking. Really looking forward to play some alts that will have significant changes.

I love the scalable content, it will certainly make grouping easier and more fun. I cannot wait to play with my friends, we all together, independent of our levels.

Even though I loved it all, and did not ask for any. I would like to see work on the lag and revamp on old areas. I bought them all, but today they seem like a wast of money and time. I would love to see Angmar and Trollshaws revamped. The story opportunities could be so much fun.

[Laurelinarien]

Oh aye...

No offense to any new player intended, but I can see it now...

Level 10: "Hey, I just joined this game two hours ago. Wanna do BB?"

Level 95: "The Valar take me!"

I can totally picture that too. Plus, it's odd that players that don't qualify to be "Skirmish Recruits" will be able to join these new battles.
I don't know, not convinced by what I've read so far so, not pre-purchasing either.

But, I do hope the expansion proves itself worthy. Or the game will keep losing players to other MMO's.

[Vandervahn]

Well apparently we the players were just CLAMMORING for these class changes.

So I ask ye... anyone? ANYONE? Did anyone here or anyone you talk to request any of this? I know I sure didn't.

There has been frequent and varied demand for changes with the whole trait-, skill and combat system.

Just a few:
Lack of character growth after lvls 50/65.
Lack of trait system growth after lvl 50/65
Lack of real customizability because of necessary legendaries and rigid trait sequences
Cumbersome retraiting
skill bloat
quickslot shortage
useless or too situational traits, useless complete trees
virtually inevitable trait and tree choices because of their extreme effectivity (e.g. Now for Wrath for Captains)
Boring skill rotations that had to be kept up because nothing rivalled them in efficiency

The new system has the possibility to tackle a lot of these issues.

[cdq1958]

I'm probably not typical, but I'm looking forward to them. Why? Because I get bored when I feel like I know game mechanics well - once I know the game's patterns inside and out, I start to lose interest. One of the reasons I have many characters is simply because trying a new class offers me an opportunity to learn something new, and once I've played them long enough so they're familiar, boredom sets in.

Class changes give me a reason to pull out various characters I essentially stopped playing years ago, and re-evaluate. See what's new, what's changed, what adjustments need to be made. That's fun for me.

Anyway, Turbine may have other reasons for this, like trying to appeal more to new potential customers, or reworking/simplifying things so they're more maintainable (fewer bugs and balance issues). I talked to a friend who worked on SWG once upon a time, and he told me that their simplification of professions (NGE) was really a matter of survival for them. The system they had was simply far too complex, far too brittle, far too buggy. Every change they made broke several other things, and they couldn't function properly - it had to change. It's almost certainly not that bad here, but there might be a bit of that going on.

Khafar

I will second this. SWG is the only MMO that had C++ pure virtual function call errors make it to live, even years later (memory is hazy now, but I think I still saw them in 09 or 10).

[SarielAngelisa]

...Quote of Sapience "we're living up to the promise we made that the epic story line will always be free to all players" found here https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...48#post5676848

RJ - thanks for hunting down that quote. I knew it existed somewhere and I'm glad it made it through the forum update. I'm a little shocked that they are going back on their word with regards to the epic story, not a lot shocked, but a little. I'll still pick it up on a Black Friday sale, but 20 bucks is the limit on this for me. Not due to funding limits, due to what I think its worth based on historic experiences with this game.

don't get me wrong i love this game. all i want to know is how many more promises lotro will break? they even promised that after the last warden change they will never mess with the warden again but now with HD coming out they are completely changing the ward as well as all classes. we all know that lotro needs to make a profit i get it but please stop making promises that you all can not keep.

[DarkCntry]

...Quote of Sapience "we're living up to the promise we made that the epic story line will always be free to all players" found here https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...48#post5676848



don't get me wrong i love this game. all i want to know is how many more promises lotro will break? they even promised that after the last warden change they will never mess with the warden again but now with HD coming out they are completely changing the ward as well as all classes. we all know that lotro needs to make a profit i get it but please stop making promises that you all can not keep.

It is not entirely fair to use a 2+ year old quote to support a claim. Yes, they originally said that the Epic would be free, however as time goes on plans do change, and especially this is true for this particular genre. I could easily point out times where other companies in other markets that have gone on to state similar things, with a few of them being far more egregious to the results.

That said, you should also probably quote the entire statement as well, as it is nowhere near the context you're providing it to be.

[Nosdracir]

When F2P started they said the Epic would only be free through level 50 (only the SoA Epic). Then they made it all free. Now it's free through RoR content. Future updates and expansions may or may not see more free Epic.