Punch Back. A Call to Arms!

[Selebrimbor]

I wish to begin by saying that Hinellas of Riddermark inspired me to make this thread.

Her original thread (and it is full of awesomeness) is here: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...y-Observations

So, let me guess. Like me, all of you are probably stuck on some server where the PvP is terrible. Freeps are overpowered. Freeps probably have close to (if not) superior numbers by now. (I've never seen the ON buff creepside this many times on my server). Just about every Freep is a Warden, Lore-master, Captain, Runekeeper, or Minstrel, right? Do you make small creep groups to match, and sometimes wipe them a few times? Then they come back with even larger numbers, wipe you, flip the map, and camp Grams and sit on the keeps right? I'm almost certain that, like me, you are sick and tired of the same routine over and over and over again, every time you log on. Are you really tired of it? Do you want to do something about it? Searching for a solution? Here's mine:

Punch Back

They make a fraid? You go put together a craid. They heal-stack groups by grabbing all the healers out of the woodwork? You go get some Warleaders and Defilers. Put together a Warg-Pack and take those healers out, or slow em down. They want to play the OP musical chairs game? Fine, play it with em. If they flip all the OP's, make it your business to flip em all back. They're camping Grams? Put together a craid and wipe em. Push them back to the rez and turn the tables on them.

Time and time again, Freeps have shown they're scared of us. I'm sure all of you have seen (at one point) Freeps with superior numbers hiding in some rez or keep from a Creep group of lesser numbers and, occasionally, lesser experience and rank. Without a raid-leader, many Freeps can't do jack. So don't be afraid to push them. They will fall back.

Once upon a time, I believed that Creeps alone could help shape PvP with their gameplay actions. Funny right? Boy, was I wrong. It takes both sides to make PvP better. Many (I said many, not all. Those who care know who they are.) Freeps have proven again and again that they don't care. They couldn't care less about camping greenies at the rez or at Grams. They don't care if the action dies. They don't care and will probably deny that they are overpowered as they run away, blowing all their CDs. If they don't care, why should we? It takes two sides to make this work, not just one. They have shown that they are not willing to make that commitment. So, A Eruchîn, ú-dano i faelas a hyn an uben tanatha le faelas....show them no mercy, for you shall receive none. This is not a call to go around zerging and interrupting 1v1's...this is a call to not let up on Freeps. Not one bit. For they would not show you any if they were in your shoes.

I challenge everyone who this threads speaks to, and holds some meaning for (I hope I didn't waste half and hour typing this for no reason) to post this or it's link on their server's PvP section.

So for those who went "ew tl;dr" :P. STAND, CREEPS OF THE MOORS!

[Moors-Battlemaster]

We, the creeps of Brandywine, have already taken heed to this muster and have done for many months. Fighting 2 fraids almost every day, we still persevere through the chaos and fight on to the bitter end.

[Irin19]

Cool story, bro, just needs more dragons!

This story varies greatly from server to server...

On Silverlode the creeps tend to run raids with 10-12 healers, it's the freeps that will repeatedly come back for a beating (mainly because creeps are more patient on our server, career creeps usually are). Creeps have all day to PvE, they typically hold most of the buffs because we have one very active tribe that makes PvE their main priority (which means they avoid a fight, too).

There are a good supply of leaders on freepside, in fact, two of the 4 creep leaders will even lead on freepside from time to time, besides them there are easily another 7 fcompetent freep leaders. Leadership is severely lacking on creepside, that's usually when the grams camps happen.

However, I couldn't agree more, it really does take both sides to make PvP better. Right now the mentailty is zerg or be zerged, nothing in between.

My hope is this: the closer we get to Helm's Deep the more bored people will become - they may play more in the moors, hopefully the creeps do too!

[Moors-Battlemaster]

There are a good supply of leaders on freepside, in fact, two of the 4 creep leaders will even lead on freepside from time to time, besides them there are easily another 7 fcompetent freep leaders. Leadership is severely lacking on creepside, that's usually when the grams camps happen.

Can you send 3-4 of them to Brandywine? Thanks.

[Linnymay]

Cool story, bro, just needs more dragons!

Dragons with semi-automatic lazers.

Right now the mentailty is zerg or be zerged, nothing in between.

Thirty freeps followed me into OC last night - or thought they did (I didn't actually go inside OC). I've recently been joining the raid. Did you know that "Akthuri" translates into "SQUIRREL" in Creep language.

I wish there was more space in the Moors. The Delving helps but it's hard to spread out in such a small zone = specially with the fast horses and the over-lapping map spots.

[Qwyxzl]

Cool story, bro, just needs more dragons!

This story varies greatly from server to server...

On Silverlode the creeps tend to run raids with 10-12 healers, it's the freeps that will repeatedly come back for a beating (mainly because creeps are more patient on our server, career creeps usually are). Creeps have all day to PvE, they typically hold most of the buffs because we have one very active tribe that makes PvE their main priority (which means they avoid a fight, too).

There are a good supply of leaders on freepside, in fact, two of the 4 creep leaders will even lead on freepside from time to time, besides them there are easily another 7 fcompetent freep leaders. Leadership is severely lacking on creepside, that's usually when the grams camps happen.

However, I couldn't agree more, it really does take both sides to make PvP better. Right now the mentailty is zerg or be zerged, nothing in between.

My hope is this: the closer we get to Helm's Deep the more bored people will become - they may play more in the moors, hopefully the creeps do too!

I have to disagree with you some. We might get to 10 healers when we fill out the full 24 man raid but sometimes we have fewer. We strive for 8 for 24. The typical freep response to a wipe is a call in glff like "ZOMG NEED MOAR FREEPS IN THE MOORS!!!1!". While I mostly pvp creepside I remember seeing those calls all the time in glff. Creepside has the outnumbered buff more nights than not. Just last night we had some great battles going till the freeps decided that creeps had earned enough and you brought out more than 30 to sweep the map blue.

I will completely agree though that it takes both sides and that the pure zerg mentality is bad. I mostly raid anymore because I have to but I like being able to roam the map solo or small group and be able to actually fight now and again.

Creep leadership is not in a good place right now. Those that are capable of leading are burnt out on doing so.

[Squelcher]

We Cleganes are very, very good at punching things.

[Selebrimbor]

Creep leadership is not in a good place right now. Those that are capable of leading are burnt out on doing so.

^This. We need others to step up and share the load.

We, the creeps of Brandywine, have already taken heed to this muster and have done for many months. Fighting 2 fraids almost every day, we still persevere through the chaos and fight on to the bitter end.

I salute you my creep brethren! Keep fighting until the end!

There is one part of this post that I forgot to include:

Greenies. Don't be afraid to help out greenies now and then..it will improve Creepside exponentially. Help out with PvP forum posts giving tips and advice or by giving in-game advice or help.

Also, as I said earlier in this post, share the load. Don't look to one or two leaders on Creepside to always be leading the raid...get one going on your own too.

[Squelcher]

For the majority of the Summer months I was the only person leading raids in prime time on creepside on my server. Lack of leaders is one of the greatest solvable problems faced by creeps. They need leaders more than freeps, as they require groups more.

[Selebrimbor]

For the majority of the Summer months I was the only person leading raids in prime time on creepside on my server. Lack of leaders is one of the greatest solvable problems faced by creeps. They need leaders more than freeps, as they require groups more.

Is the problem due to numbers or just nobody wants to lead?

[Squelcher]

Is the problem due to numbers or just nobody wants to lead?

Bit of both, but it has improved a good bit since the Summer with an increase in creep numbers and a couple of new leaders.

[CRUSHUC]

On Landy, freeps only show up with numbers and over-the-top healing.

Yet, creeps counter them until the GLFF siren goes off. Heal stacking (to a point) can be countered by fighting in open field battles - not letting them aoe and cc you into oblivion. Usually with each successful freep wipe, healing numbers increase until the point that it gets impossible to do any kind of damage. Try fighting 39+ with 9 minis, 5 rks, 5 lms, 5 captains vs a creep raid of 21 - lucky to get 1 or 2 kills before a wipe. Usually by then, the freeps will wipe the map blue, some flip creepside then start fight clubs to farm each other.

Sadly, even with the heal stacked godmode faceroll freeps utilize - they continue to use spies (creep alts/friends to spy chat or follow craid and report positions via TS).

[Grumpisaw]

Agreed on all counts Sele, just to tell these others. We tried healstack v healstack, it worked the only problem was that freeps outnumbered creeps. We had a good horde of healers (mostly WLs) but very little dps. He freeps had lots of heals, some rks that would switch back and forth between heals and dps, but the only freeps we were able to kill relatively successfully were a few lowbie noobs.

The only other suggestion I have is this: if you switch to healers, make sure you still have enough dps to actually kill things, bring out your Blackarrows, pew pew them down.

[Selebrimbor]

On Landy, freeps only show up with numbers and over-the-top healing.

Yet, creeps counter them until the GLFF siren goes off. Heal stacking (to a point) can be countered by fighting in open field battles - not letting them aoe and cc you into oblivion. Usually with each successful freep wipe, healing numbers increase until the point that it gets impossible to do any kind of damage. Try fighting 39+ with 9 minis, 5 rks, 5 lms, 5 captains vs a creep raid of 21 - lucky to get 1 or 2 kills before a wipe. Usually by then, the freeps will wipe the map blue, some flip creepside then start fight clubs to farm each other.

Sadly, even with the heal stacked godmode faceroll freeps utilize - they continue to use spies (creep alts/friends to spy chat or follow craid and report positions via TS).

This sounds exactly like Riddermark. Last weekend, I had the misfortune of witnessing one of the largest healstacked groups I have ever seen. Almost every class was a healing class...Cappies, Runekeepers, and Minstrels. Just about everyone else was either a Warden or a Champion. Even then, there was a greenie reaver running about, not attacking or saying anything, that kept following the main group. I am sure now that he was a spy. Tis pathetic that they still needed/wanted a spy even with that ridiculous freep group running around.

The whole situation reminded of the quote "What can men do against such reckless hate?"

Agreed on all counts Sele, just to tell these others. We tried healstack v healstack, it worked the only problem was that freeps outnumbered creeps. We had a good horde of healers (mostly WLs) but very little dps. He freeps had lots of heals, some rks that would switch back and forth between heals and dps, but the only freeps we were able to kill relatively successfully were a few lowbie noobs.

The only other suggestion I have is this: if you switch to healers, make sure you still have enough dps to actually kill things, bring out your Blackarrows, pew pew them down.

I hated that whole fight, but healstacking was better than getting farmed by those noobs.

[BiteMarks]

I wish to begin by saying that Hinellas of Riddermark inspired me to make this thread.

Her original thread (and it is full of awesomeness) is here: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...y-Observations

So, let me guess. Like me, all of you are probably stuck on some server where the PvP is terrible. Freeps are overpowered. Freeps probably have close to (if not) superior numbers by now. (I've never seen the ON buff creepside this many times on my server). Just about every Freep is a Warden, Lore-master, Captain, Runekeeper, or Minstrel, right? Do you make small creep groups to match, and sometimes wipe them a few times? Then they come back with even larger numbers, wipe you, flip the map, and camp Grams and sit on the keeps right? I'm almost certain that, like me, you are sick and tired of the same routine over and over and over again, every time you log on. Are you really tired of it? Do you want to do something about it? Searching for a solution? Here's mine:

Punch Back

They make a fraid? You go put together a craid. They heal-stack groups by grabbing all the healers out of the woodwork? You go get some Warleaders and Defilers. Put together a Warg-Pack and take those healers out, or slow em down. They want to play the OP musical chairs game? Fine, play it with em. If they flip all the OP's, make it your business to flip em all back. They're camping Grams? Put together a craid and wipe em. Push them back to the rez and turn the tables on them.

Time and time again, Freeps have shown they're scared of us. I'm sure all of you have seen (at one point) Freeps with superior numbers hiding in some rez or keep from a Creep group of lesser numbers and, occasionally, lesser experience and rank. Without a raid-leader, many Freeps can't do jack. So don't be afraid to push them. They will fall back.

Once upon a time, I believed that Creeps alone could help shape PvP with their gameplay actions. Funny right? Boy, was I wrong. It takes both sides to make PvP better. Many (I said many, not all. Those who care know who they are.) Freeps have proven again and again that they don't care. They couldn't care less about camping greenies at the rez or at Grams. They don't care if the action dies. They don't care and will probably deny that they are overpowered as they run away, blowing all their CDs. If they don't care, why should we? It takes two sides to make this work, not just one. They have shown that they are not willing to make that commitment. So, A Eruchîn, ú-dano i faelas a hyn an uben tanatha le faelas....show them no mercy, for you shall receive none. This is not a call to go around zerging and interrupting 1v1's...this is a call to not let up on Freeps. Not one bit. For they would not show you any if they were in your shoes.

I challenge everyone who this threads speaks to, and holds some meaning for (I hope I didn't waste half and hour typing this for no reason) to post this or it's link on their server's PvP section.

So for those who went "ew tl;dr" :P. STAND, CREEPS OF THE MOORS!

Totally agree with everything here. Eldar is completely screwed up right now due to the fraids that go on night after night. Zergs with all teh GOD mode freeps out there. Solo/small group is pointless. Spies are everywhere whenever craid up. To be honest 'delete' is looking hte best option right now

We, the creeps of Brandywine, have already taken heed to this muster and have done for many months. Fighting 2 fraids almost every day, we still persevere through the chaos and fight on to the bitter end.

Hats off to you all - well done

[Moors-Battlemaster]

To be honest 'delete' is looking hte best option right now

Don't delete-Join us united on Brandywine!

[Selebrimbor]

Don't delete-Join us united on Brandywine!

Perhaps I will take a look at Brandywine....

[spelunker]

Don't delete-Join us united on Brandywine!

Semi-serious question: Is your goal to build up creepside on Brandy, or flat out break the server from increased load when it can't even handle what it has now?

E gets reduced awareness anytime we get 12v12, and performance blows chunks just about every time full raids meet up, throw in some 6-mans tagging along, or heaven forbid if the fight happens on a server line everything comes crashing to a halt. If greater than full RvR numbers persist for more than 15-20 minutes, the whole server starts to #### out, not just that zone of the moors. One of the big reasons I restarted on E with RoR was it had more numbers and quality players than my original server, but it didn't have the game-breaking numbers Brandy has. The thought of 4 raids colliding in one spot in Lotro is downright hilarious to me, and I can't fathom how anyone gets a quality experience from it.

[poxnoxious]

Biggest issue on our server is by far the switchers, imo. The speed with which the renown/commendation zombies can swap sides, at the slightest hint 'their' side is the loosing side, leaves me aghast. I don't need to explain how severely this ruins the action. When things truly gets out of hand it can last for 4+ hours, just PvE/zerg trains flip flopping the map back and forth. Mind you, Turbines great invention, 'auto-flips' does nothing to improve the situation either. Anyways, point is, we creeps are at war with not only the pies, but also 'ourselves'. And the latter has by far proved to be the most fearsome. Or so it is where I'm from anyways.

[Moors-Battlemaster]

Perhaps I will take a look at Brandywine....

Message me on Imessupkeepflips, or ask for Evil in ooc.

Semi-serious question: Is your goal to build up creepside on Brandy, or flat out break the server from increased load when it can't even handle what it has now?

The former. I want Brandywine creepside and freepside to be a solid, built up environment with action around the clock.

E gets reduced awareness anytime we get 12v12, and performance blows chunks just about every time full raids meet up, throw in some 6-mans tagging along, or heaven forbid if the fight happens on a server line everything comes crashing to a halt. If greater than full RvR numbers persist for more than 15-20 minutes, the whole server starts to #### out, not just that zone of the moors. One of the big reasons I restarted on E with RoR was it had more numbers and quality players than my original server, but it didn't have the game-breaking numbers Brandy has. The thought of 4 raids colliding in one spot in Lotro is downright hilarious to me, and I can't fathom how anyone gets a quality experience from it.

We suffer lag, yes, sometimes to an unbearable extent, but we never stop fighting. We have plenty of 30vs30 fights with minimal lag, depending on the location. Open field fights in BV, cows, grams hill etc are usually lag free. When the 2nd raids on each side enter, the lag obviously picks up, but most of the time it is bearable. And we've had 45+ minute long fights with minimal lag.

[spelunker]

The former. I want Brandywine creepside and freepside to be a solid, built up environment with action around the clock.




We suffer lag, yes, sometimes to an unbearable extent, but we never stop fighting. We have plenty of 30vs30 fights with minimal lag, depending on the location. Open field fights in BV, cows, grams hill etc are usually lag free. When the 2nd raids on each side enter, the lag obviously picks up, but most of the time it is bearable. And we've had 45+ minute long fights with minimal lag.

Good to hear, as that hasn't been my experience in the moors, or most people I talk with. Perhaps Brandy is a beefier server to compensate for the added load? I dunno.

And if my post sounded negative towards you, it wasn't intended (rereading it i can see how it might). I'm quite happy on E atm, things have gone a bit downhill this expansion, but i'm hopeful more creeps will return with HD, or at least the rebalancing that will supposedly come afterwards. I suspect if populations continue to dwindle though, everyone who plays for the pvp will wind up on brandy, or one or two other servers.

[Moors-Battlemaster]

Good to hear, as that hasn't been my experience in the moors, or most people I talk with. Perhaps Brandy is a beefier server to compensate for the added load? I dunno.

No clue, we have our moments, but raid leaders have wisened up to laggy areas and avoid fighting near them when possible.

And if my post sounded negative towards you, it wasn't intended (rereading it i can see how it might).

Perfectly alright, as a creep tribe and raid leader I am used to the kitchen sink when it comes to negativity :P

I'm quite happy on E atm, things have gone a bit downhill this expansion, but i'm hopeful more creeps will return with HD, or at least the rebalancing that will supposedly come afterwards. I suspect if populations continue to dwindle though, everyone who plays for the pvp will wind up on brandy, or one or two other servers.

Originally on Brandywine we would have 2-5 raids on BOTH sides running around the map, engaging each other at different locations for 8 hours a day. While I know this is impossible, it is my goal to have 2 fraids and 2 craids running around frequently, fighting each other in different areas, while small groups battle for outposts, keeps and buffs or just each other constantly. I have a dream!

[Squelcher]

This thread should be renamed 'Brandywine Promotion Thread'.

[Moors-Battlemaster]

This thread should be renamed 'Brandywine Promotion Thread'.

An excellent idea! Come on over!

[Sabian49]

In honor of Hinellas, you should just come to Riddermark. Just a thought.
As a BA I love a good fight, though when you have 8 R9+ freeps hit you, it loses the fun. I have played with and against Hin and all them on my R7 hunter, and it would be nice to see creeps willing to group, willing to sacrifice comms and a little infamy short term for the long term benefits