Official Discussion: Helm's Deep NDA Drop.

[Belnavar]

In BB, your class skills are really not used at all, sorry.

Really? Because I found I couldn't actually kill mobs directly without using my class skills, and couldn't heal allies without using my class skills (though bear in mind that AOE heals did not apply to NPCs). Yes, there are a slew of new skills and ways to play with the siege weapons, commanders (and their respective buffs), and killstreaks, etc., but you can still use your normal character skills just fine.

-Bel

[SabrielofLorien]

What choices? What different playstyle?

Traiting outside the trees and trying to go hybrid (and get at least a tiny bit of diversity back) costs twice as many points and considering how few points my characters had even at 85 we're caught in the tree we picked.

This comes down to you cannot do what you do today the way you do it today. Players will need to adapt to a new way of doing things if they decide to hang around to learn.

There are hybrid builds for classes that work. Traiting along specific tree lines (blue, red, yellow) work too. Switching up between lines works (switch during an out of combat pause) also (blue/hybrid/red/yellow/hybrid).

It's not how it was, which is true but you can still get-there-from-here, if you work with the new system a bit.

fwiw: I traited along each line, no points on my LIs, L85 gear (hytbold+pvmp) and nothing extraordinarily bad happened. Yeah I got smacked a bit. Yes if you want to raid you have to put a bit more thought into the setups but it's all achievable, even if the "out of spec" items cost more.

[RJFerret]

So lots of folks who hate it, and some folks who suggest "give it a chance to see if you hate it too, but I'm not spending any money on it and suggest you don't until you try it".

Is there one person, just one who doesn't work for Turbine, who actually likes the changes, thinks that a year from now the game will be healthier than it has been this past year, that they'll be playing Battles come Spring, and some of the players who have left these past months will return to be engaged and keep playing happily?

So far we have 0% enthused, which is unusual for a "big changes are coming" type topic, there shouldn't be consensus here.

[Atheling]

That's very sad to hear.

Regardless, do LM's still have Blinding flash/Bane Flare or are they gone? Can anyone tell me?

They are currently there as 'general' skills available to all trait lines but only after strong feedback from many LMs. Specifics of changes for LMs can be found here: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...ry-Lore-master

[Palentian]

What choices? What different playstyle?

Traiting outside the trees and trying to go hybrid (and get at least a tiny bit of diversity back) costs twice as many points and considering how few points my characters had even at 85 we're caught in the tree we picked.

It only costs twice as many points because in spec is 1 point. You could just as easily say "It only costs an extra point to trait out of spec." Are you one of those who would prefer that in spec costs 2 points, and out of spec costs 3 so that it FEELS like a deal???? (Yes, that was suggested which is why I brought it up.) Or would you like to start messing around with half points???

[Jamesm429]

Really? Because I found I couldn't actually kill mobs directly without using my class skills, and couldn't heal allies without using my class skills (though bear in mind that AOE heals did not apply to NPCs). Yes, there are a slew of new skills and ways to play with the siege weapons, commanders (and their respective buffs), and killstreaks, etc., but you can still use your normal character skills just fine.

-Bel

He was asking about LM skills, not captain...

[KrauserJoestar]

They are currently there as 'general' skills available to all trait lines but only after strong feedback from many LMs. Specifics of changes for LMs can be found here: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...ry-Lore-master

Thank you.

Also, i assume thet BB's are still really broken and in need of polishing, seeing that some people are saying you only need to dps them. I mean, they're supposed to at least have tanking/healing/dpsing in the 12man raid right?

[Jamesm429]

Thank you.

Also, i assume thet BB's are still really broken and in need of polishing, seeing that some people are saying you only need to dps them. I mean, they're supposed to at least have tanking/healing/dpsing in the 12man raid right?

No, the 12 man is just a bunch of running around in small groups doing things like bring arrows to peeps, clicking this, moving that, there is very little fighting that YOUR toon has to do.

[Crell_1]

Thank you.

Also, i assume thet BB's are still really broken and in need of polishing, seeing that some people are saying you only need to dps them. I mean, they're supposed to at least have tanking/healing/dpsing in the 12man raid right?

The 12 man version of Deepening Wall was only opened recently for testing. It needs much more work compared to any of the other spaces. DPS is what the battles focus on. ; PLAYER Tanking is nearly non existant, and CLASS BASED healing of VERY minimal effect compared to using the NPC's heal skills.

[Andthelion]

Exactly. All of the feedback is listened to. Listening to feedback does not mean "do what I say". The beta testers using that definition of feedback have been disappointed. The rest of us have been pretty well satisfied.

Sorry thats just plain rubbish.

We ASKED after beta 1 to allow in combat changes, NOTHING was said.
we asked after beta 1 to reduce the out of spec double point penalty NOTHiNG was said
we asked after beta 1 to give us back our skills, we got no response.
we not only asked but gave reasons why.

When beta 2 started and nothing that we asked for had changed we got a touch miffed, so we started asking louder, we were then told that the trait trees were here to stay regardless of what we said, that the out of spec penalty was here to stay regardless of what we said, that not being able to swap in combat was staying regardless of what we said, we were told to leave feedback in the class forums though, but we wanted to address the problems with the trait tree system as a whole and not to fluff up what was in them. They released a class survey, they never once asked us our opinions on the trait tree system.

We were told by Sapience we were a vocal minority so why would he listen to us, so 1 guy counted up all posts in the biggest thread on the trait tree subject and found that 75% of the posters had issues with the trees, we were then told that what a small sample size, so he counted up all the posts from ALL the beta threads and guess what same again 75%, then we were told his method of collecting data was flawed, so somebody else ran polls every build and hey guess what 75% of posters again expressed dissatisfaction.

It didnt matter one bit how we asked or how we put our points across, we were never going to be listened to thats why people started to rage quit and get angry.

There wasnt and still isnt even an official feedback forum for the biggest change to this game in years, doesnt that tell you that they didnt want to hear our opinions of the trees as all?

There has never been any dialog between the devs and the beta testers regarding the trait tree system, not once have they expressed any interest in our ideas to make it better or in lots of people views even workable. Sure they have engaged in the class threads regarding where skills should go or what should be included, but no-one has ever asked us if we feel the out of points spec is too high, or if we have lost too many skills, the ONLY engagement we have had from anyone from turbine is from Sapience to tell us to give it up , it aint gonna change.

[Palentian]

Is there one person, just one who doesn't work for Turbine, who actually likes the changes, thinks that a year from now the game will be healthier than it has been this past year, that they'll be playing Battles come Spring, and some of the players who have left these past months will return to be engaged and keep playing happily?

Actually yes. I know since I'm on the council you may not agree that I don't work for Turbine, but I don't. I form my own opinions based on what I experienced, not from what others have said. (Positive or negative). My experiences in Beta lead me to think rather highly of the changes. There are still some things that need working out, but on the whole they aren't bad. They will give each of the classes some much needed distinction. Oh yes, its going to take a bit of getting used to. Even if you read all the class guides some of my fellow testers produced. Reading about them doesn't quite prepare you for actually SEEING the changes. Its a shock. But when you get past that, you will find some new skills, new traits and new roles. Yes, there are also some skills that have been removed, but not wholly. Many of the effects have been combined with other skills and traits. It will definitely take some re-learning. I'm actually more concerned with how threat management is going to work now, than having to re-learn my toons. My advice: Read the forums. Look at the class guides. Keep an open mind, and go check it out when it goes live. Then log off, maybe have a drink (or whatever you do to relax) log back in and play around. Its going to be different, but I think it'll work out alright. I quite like some of the changes to the hunter.

[Belnavar]

So lots of folks who hate it, and some folks who suggest "give it a chance to see if you hate it too, but I'm not spending any money on it and suggest you don't until you try it".

Is there one person, just one who doesn't work for Turbine, who actually likes the changes, thinks that a year from now the game will be healthier than it has been this past year, that they'll be playing Battles come Spring, and some of the players who have left these past months will return to be engaged and keep playing happily?

So far we have 0% enthused, which is unusual for a "big changes are coming" type topic, there shouldn't be consensus here.

You must be ignoring some of the responses then. I'll bite.

I like the changes, and I think they are needed for the long-term viability of the game. There are so many problems with what we have on live, and anyone who has followed my posts over the years will know that I have long felt that the game lacked progression after Moria, when we gained no more trait slots. The class changes go beyond solving this, however, and make builds more distinct and meaningful, while reducing skill bloat and UI clutter.

Since I still play Skirmishes, I expect I will still be playing Epic Battles in Spring, though likely not as often as I will be at launch (the same is true for any content).

Whether or not someone wants to pre-order is up to them and their wallet. If they want the pre-order goodies, then they'll have to pre-order to get them. If they have enjoyed the game so far and like the sound of the changes, then they can likely safely pre-order without disappointment. For those who really want to see what the changes entail, the class summaries give a very good rundown (though actually playing them is obviously better). Those who adapt well to change and/or have noted the problems with the live system will likely grow to like the changes too. I pre-ordered, like I did for all previous expansions, and I never regretted those purchases, and I doubt I'll regret this one either, based on what we've been told/shown, and what I have experienced.

Some players will return, and some will leave, like it has been for every expansion to date.

If you think there is consensus in this thread, then you really aren't paying attention. What has been very clear in beta, and this is reflected here also, is that these changes are controversial, with many people on either side of the fence, and many more inbetween. There were many people who initially disliked the changes, but grew to like them, and many who are still undecided. Players do not universally love or hate these changes, and those who are vocal on the forums represent only a fraction of the total player base.

-Bel

[Cithryth]

I have been playing since Dec 2007. The only two betas I was not a part of were Moria and Shadows of Angmar. I have been in every other major beta since.

My initial feelings when logging into the start of the HD beta were mostly feelings of frustration tinged with disappointment. I tried traiting my captain similar to my set up on live. Fighting felt awkward - the animations did not mesh well with the way I had been fighting for years. I had lost skills I used regularly. It was confusing and frustrating. I was previously a hybrid leaning captain and now I was being pigeon-holed! It felt terrible.

I didn't log back in for a few days because of this. But I knew I should try and test it and really figure out what it was specifically that I found frustrating and out of whack with my live captain. So I took a deep breath, grabbed a pen and paper and logged back in again. I tried different trait layouts while doing skirmishes. I wrote down specific skills I felt I needed in order to be efficient. I wrote down traits or numbers in the trait trees I felt were off. And then I took all of my notes and posted them to the class forums, describing why I was having problems and what I thought could fix those problems.

And over the course of the beta rounds, more and more and more changes came to the classes.

And now I can log into Bullroarer and my captain feels much more in-line with how she is on live now. Is it different? Yes. You will have to make some compromises and decisions on the trait tree. Skills are no longer an open buffet. However I feel they are much more potent and I feel like I have much more definition now.

I am now excited for the changes and eagerly await Nov 18.

[Jibber00]

I found this insulting and ignorant. We are not asking for godmode, we are asking for "SUFFICIENT DPS FOR THE DEDICATED TREE FOR DPS" while having MINIMUM SURVIVABILITY. Since now EVERY SINGLE CLASS HAS A DPS TREE, good luck telling all other classes such as captains, guardians, lore-masters, burglars, and wardens NOT TO DPS since it's not their """"MAIN-ROLE""" to DPS too.

Mini can DPS just fine. Just as good as a Champ can heal his fellowship (when appropriately traited).

[Nonan]

(...)

There has never been any dialog between the devs and the beta testers regarding the trait tree system, not once have they expressed any interest in our ideas to make it better or in lots of people views even workable. Sure they have engaged in the class threads regarding where skills should go or what should be included, but no-one has ever asked us if we feel the out of points spec is too high, or if we have lost to many skills, the ONLY engagement we have had from anyone from turbine is from Sapience to tell us to give it up , it aint gonna change.

Very accentuated, but just true.

[Southpa]

Overall

One thing to remember: much of what happened in Helms Deep was a retreat, not an advance. You can retreat from the challenge or learn to crank the ballista and fire the catapults. When you see the orcs coming over the walls in waves after waves... will you Run or will you Stand and Fight?

Wha??
The good guys didn't win HD by retreating. It was a defense that became an offensive when the Horn of Helm was sounded. They routed the orcs. They could have done so much with Helm's Deep... so much. Instead, they've done so little.

"Learn to crank the ballista".... is that what end game has become in this game?
My, how dreadful.

After reading a good chunk of Beta reviews, I have to say I am amazed at how far this game has fallen. I mean, I knew it was headed downhill... I just didn't think it would be on a bobsled.

[SNy-lotrolinux-EU]

I mean even something as simple and basic as saving all your skills in each spec in the exact position you placed them in isn't present currently.

Plus, you will have to figure out ways to save your skill bars so that all of your skills don't mysteriously move around when switching specializations.

You don't say? Is this for real? After they did the same thing with the initial MC release it didn't cross their collective minds that it would be greeted with the same echo if they did it again?
As Atheling says, something this basic and they somehow manage to mess it up, second time in a row?!

Really, I don't even need to read any further than this.

SNy

[Stephen1981]

to be honest if turbine gonna keep its stand on 2 point penalty out of specialization then i think rift or swtor might be a better game for me at least its 1 for 1 all the way around

[Gwyndor]

Really, have you seen this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKo1Rnd1oRw

That Guard has 9 moobs on him and he is not where near dying. Seems dumb down to me.

What a sad, sad video that is. I remember when my toons actually used to die playing this game. What a JOKE it has become. Tell you what turbine, give as server rolled back to SoA, when Lotro was a fine game - was an awesome game, before it was totally bloody ruined. I'd sub for that in a heartbeat.

[catofnine]

What was the rationale for the two point penalty in the off spec trees? You're already dumping points elsewhere. No skill tree based mmo I've played (WoW, Rift, SWTOR) does this. Spec too deep in one tree, the best stuff in other trees are already off limits to you so why the need for this increased penalty? It's already baked in.

Also, with regards to BB...I watched the video released a couple days ago, and it really didn't seem all that compelling. If you guys had to estimate, how much of the expansion content is BB? 30%? 40%? Is there still going to be mounted combat?

[BangoTwinkletoes]

Some of you will by now be aware that on some issues the opinions of those active on the beta forums was divided and, dare I say it tensions did run quite high at times. What I strongly suggest is that those who were not in Beta try and access as much information as possible on Epic Battles / Big Battles and judge for themselves, because it's very different from the traditional end-game instance / raid.

Now, that's not to say that EBs/BBs are bad / terrible etc. Just like all things that are different from the norm, they can be an acquired taste. Hopefully there will soon be available a EB guide along the lines of the Hytbold guide which people can study and get to grips with the gameplay & mechanics.

[Capt.Hunor]

Captain is better than it was, but I'll miss the tactic buffs. Hunter's pretty cool, though I still won't trait trapper. Haven't played minstrel or LM enough to judge much there.

Please correct yourself:

Captain is better than it was

with

In my opinion Captain is better than it was

Because, after several comparing my Cappy from the Beta versus Live, I heal much weaker, tanking better but with weaker surviveability, dps better with same weaker surviveability.
Sincerely I don't know what the captain will be. A bad healer, a weak tank or a weak damage dealer? And our Power Management (Rallying Cry power heal) are down again.
Rallying Cry was totaly changed, there is 20 sec. cooldown, and the Moor Set was changed too. So you can probaly reach 15 sec.

[Andthelion]

What was the rationale for the two point penalty in the off spec trees? You're already dumping points elsewhere. No skill tree based mmo I've played (WoW, Rift, SWTOR) does this. Spec too deep in one tree, the best stuff in other trees are already off limits to you so why the need for this increased penalty? It's already baked in.

Also, with regards to BB...I watched the video released a couple days ago, and it really didn't seem all that compelling. If you guys had to estimate, how much of the expansion content is BB? 30%? 40%? Is there still going to be mounted combat?

There is still MC with new warbands as well.

Its hard to put a % on what BB stands for in terms of the expansion, but I will say this, The epic concludes with it, it is all the end game content you will ever get with HD, the whole expansion is built around it, the stories, the quest lines etc etc.
Once you get there it is going to take up a HUGE amount amount of time to fully finish it should you wish to do so.

In short, you cant avoid it, so as people have already said, if you have even the slightest doubt as to whether you will enjoy something like this, take my advice and DO NOT buy HD until you have seen it for yourself.

[Stephen1981]

What was the rationale for the two point penalty in the off spec trees? You're already dumping points elsewhere. No skill tree based mmo I've played (WoW, Rift, SWTOR) does this. Spec too deep in one tree, the best stuff in other trees are already off limits to you so why the need for this increased penalty? It's already baked in.

Also, with regards to BB...I watched the video released a couple days ago, and it really didn't seem all that compelling. If you guys had to estimate, how much of the expansion content is BB? 30%? 40%? Is there still going to be mounted combat?

the 2 point penalty is my biggest issue is this what i have been teaching from day one why should i play lotro with a 2 point penalty for going out specilazation when i can just go play rift,swtor,wow that has a 1 for 1 point system in its skill trees system unlike what we have here plus they have more group content than is here

[Nouri]

I can't help but notice that the few posters who give these changes favorable reviews keep using the word "distinctive." I don't think a lot of people are going to enjoy being forced into one of three "distinctive" cookie-cutter builds with very limited opportunities to invest in skills outside of their main trait tree.