Official Discussion: Helm's Deep NDA Drop.

[Andthelion]

Look, I didn't want to get in on this whole "poll" thing AGAIN...........The polls (yes, plural) have already been explained as flawed. You don't have the numbers to judge the accuracy of them. They are NOT representative of Beta. Only a few vocal testers. 100-300 people aren't statistically significant even if there were only 1000 people in Beta. There was more than that. Those that DID express an interest or ANY form of support for the changes were set upon by this vocal minority until they stopped posting in Beta General at all. This doesn't mean you're right, it only means some people have thinner skins than you.

Ah vocal minority there is that term again, this was a beta test we are ALL actively encouraged to voice our opinions, we are practically begged to by the devs, if the only posts being made are negative ones maybe it because not many people had good things to say.

And please dont give me that nonsense that people who are happy dont say a word its a complete myth disproven time and time again, fact is the beta forums are full of negative threads, filled with negative posts, from lots and lots of different people, there is a reason for that, bury your head in the sand all you wish, pretend everything is rosey and lovely, people are not stupid, they will judge for themselves and I bet my bottom dollar the same ration we saw on beta will be repeated on live.

And no you were not set up on at all, no more than the negative posters were set up on and called liars, doomsayers accused of having no patience, not willing to change, coming into beta wanting it to fail etc etc, most of the more vocal opponents to the changes stopped posting a long time ago, because it became very clear no-one wanted to hear what we had to say.

[FittyBolger]

Look, I didn't want to get in on this whole "poll" thing AGAIN...........The polls (yes, plural) have already been explained as flawed. You don't have the numbers to judge the accuracy of them. They are NOT representative of Beta. Only a few vocal testers. 100-300 people aren't statistically significant even if there were only 1000 people in Beta. There was more than that. Those that DID express an interest or ANY form of support for the changes were set upon by this vocal minority until they stopped posting in Beta General at all. This doesn't mean you're right, it only means some people have thinner skins than you.

Haha... and this "help, help I'm being repressed" was only the poor defenders right? There were no instances where dissent was squashed by the un-vocal majority?
You have all the big guns on your side of the argument (Turbine) but still in all this time you have produced no effective counter argument other than "vocal minority is BAD" and "Because I say so...".


So "explained as flawed"... And yet your side never produced any form of actual data to support your argument which corresponded to the poll data. Not one iota of actual data.
Oh yes you can quote studies but you couldn't come up with any feedback to support your "assertions".

You have assertions and we have numbers you can look at... In the end you won though! *bows*

[FittyBolger]

Ah vocal minority there is that term again, this was a beta test we are ALL actively encouraged to voice our opinions, we are practically begged to by the devs, if the only posts being made are negative ones maybe it because not many people had good things to say.

And please dont give me that nonsense that people who are happy dont say a word its a complete myth disproven time and time again, fact is the beta forums are full of negative threads, filled with negative posts, from lots and lots of different people, there is a reason for that, bury your head in the sand all you wish, pretend everything is rosey and lovely, people are not stupid, they will judge for themselves and I bet my bottom dollar the same ration we saw on beta will be repeated on live.

And no you were not set up on at all, no more than the negative posters were set up on and called liars, doomsayers accused of having no patience, not willing to change, coming into beta wanting it to fail etc etc, most of the more vocal opponents to the changes stopped posting a long time ago, because it became very clear no-one wanted to hear what we had to say.

Haha... Ninja!

You are bad Andthelion... a very, very bad man!

[Andthelion]

Haha... Ninja!

You are bad Andthelion... a very, very bad man!

Hehe Yeah starting to think that myself now
Ah well, we tried Fitty, at least we can say we tried.

[frickinmuck]

I'm really glad the NDA is finally lifted, because it was painful watching all the leakers and haters dominate the Helm's Deep conversation over the past months. Those of us who respect beta and respect the NDA were stuck on the sidelines, unable to help alleviate some of the drama and fearmongering that was going on.

This expansion is breathtaking in scope and quality. I am really awestruck at how much Turbine has achieved with Helm's Deep. I'm always a bit surprised when I see people telling others to hold off on buying it. This is the best expansion we've had since Moria. My breakdown:

Landscape regions and quests

First off, the new landscape regions are incredible. Prepare to be blown away. My jaw dropped several times as I explored. Those who love the lore and are geeked out about the areas described in the books will be squealing with excitement. They did an incredible job. I logged a LOT of beta hours, and I'm still excited to get back in there. For some reason RoR just didn't grab me the same way HD does. If you are still waiting to really experience the Rohan of the books, this expansion will give you that experience, for sure. People are (rightfully) really focusing a lot on the class changes and the Big Battles system when talking about this expansion, but the landscape stuff is as exciting to me, if not more.

Class changes

The class changes are just massive. Prepare yourself, because everything really has changed. I came to these changes open-minded and optimistic, and even I was thrown off in the beginning. The first time I logged in and played my hunter I was so disoriented and freaked out I just felt sad and confused. My beloved hunter that I've grown so familiar with, that had become so second nature to me, was completely gone. I did not recognize this new abomination I was trying to play at all!

But as I got used to the changes, and as beta builds gradually improved things, I really started getting back into the hang of things. Now when I login to beta I feel perfectly natural and comfortable with what I've got going on there. The new hunter is pretty exciting, the changes are overall just fantastic, guys. I know some people are still unhappy because they don't have agile rejoinder or whatever other pet skill they lost, but I think most people are going to be excited. Blue line for PvPers, will be much loved I think. Red line, my preferred line, is pretty much the same as on live, with some relatively minor changes. Yellow line is just crazy. Different than anything you've seen before. Fun to play, with some pretty cool tricks. It really is a trapper build. From an immersion/RP standpoint I love love love the new yellow line.

As someone else mentioned above, the class changes do narrow down each class/build, which will upset some people who loved being a swiss army knife, but the changes also improve the overall potency and distinctiveness of each class/build. And because we can customize and save our builds, and swap between them at will, it makes switching builds not only easier, but much more desirable. In that sense, these changes really improve our choices with regard to how to play our characters. It's now viable to approach each challenge individually, and trait accordingly. No bard required.

But that also forces us to change the way we think about our characters and about each combat scenario a bit. Previously I used to go into a challenging situation and work every skill in my bar to the max in order to pull off some pretty creative tricks to getting the job done. I absolutely lived for that type of play, and the narrowing of our builds has basically meant a narrowing of my in-combat utility. That's where switching builds becomes important.

I will miss the old way, for sure, but I think I'm going to learn to love the new approach. Especially considering that now I have something to look forward to. Now I know for certain that over time, as I get more levels and points, I can gradually expand on my builds until they start to get more and more versatile. This excites me a lot. I have to say, I honestly didn't feel that way before these changes. I felt like my end-game characters on live are "done" and made, and each expansion and level cap increase just meant a new gear grind - no really interesting or exciting improvements to my core abilities or powers . Now, I have that old feeling back, of being excited about what's to come for my characters, and where they will go from here.

Big Battles

Much more so than the class changes, I am waiting with interest to see how the new Big Battles system is going to be received. It's not what I think a lot of people are expecting. I think a lot of people are expecting massive combat scenarios, where they get to be in the thick of grimy, bloody battle. It's really not like that at all (although it is possible to take on a Vanguard role and build them more and more into that type of experience over time).

They aren't a skirmish, they aren't an instance - they're something entirely new. It's like playing a game within a game in some ways. A strategy game with some hand to hand combat built in. Some people are going to expect to go in and just focus on mastering the battle, like with instances or skirmishes, but that's not how Big Battles work at all. When you get into them, you are really only just getting started. The more you play them, the more you can expand and enhance your roles in them. They've got a built in replayability factor just with that mechanic alone.

There are three roles you can play in Big Battles. The Commander, which, as you build it up over time, becomes a more and more powerful buffing/strategy/healing role. The Vanguard, which as mentioned before is the "in the thick of it" combat role, and my personal favourite, the Engineer, which is able to impact the flow of battle via siege weapons, barricades and traps.

The more Big Battle successes you have, the more points you get to spend to upgrade your roles. The more upgrades you do, the more powerful you are and the more fun and engaging the battles are. The rewards were pretty nice, and not nearly as much of a gamble as with instances and skirmishes. As you gain points and medals you are guaranteed to get a drop of something potent for your character's level and class (I recommend reward forwarding, which enables you to focus all your earnings on the top tier, rather than having low level drops as you go along). The medals earning panel lets you set your earnings to forward to the next tier, to the max of gold tier (platinum can only be earned by getting platinum medals).

I played a LOT of Big Battles and I have to say, at first they were a bit confusing but now that I have the hang of it I love it. It's a lot of fun. And the settings are spectacular. The first time I stood on the wall looking out over a sea of orcs I felt my hair stand on end!!

Now, I agree with others who say this is the one area that is still feeling very beta-ish. Big Battles are still being balanced and tweaked, so to those who say that they're too easy, don't count on it for launch!

Epics

I didn't go as far into the epics as some people did, but I have to say, what I did see was top notch. I mean, all the excitement and immersion I've come to expect from the best epic quests of previous updates. It's especially exciting because we get to spend a significant amount of time helping some of my favourite characters. Particularly Eowyn, who I can never get enough of. Turbine did a great job of bringing her, and the scenes surrounding the epic story, to life.

Crafting

Crafting has been much improved this update, guys. Be excited. More processing options, streamlined resources - it's just going to be so much less of a pain to level crafting from the early tiers. Also, as someone else mentioned - we finally get a new dye colour, and it's the colour I've been longing for all these years: Dark Brown!!

Housing

I haven't seen anyone mention housing yet, but there have been some changes to housing storage. Instead of having 1 - 2 chests available with a static amount of space available, we now get one chest that is expandable to up to 120 slots. Best of all, escrow can now be accessed from inside your house.

Of course, kins don't last long enough in beta to get to rank 7, so no one yet knows how those changes are going to affect kin storage.

Preparing for Helm's Deep

My advice is to get all of your class deeds done. The more of those deeds you have completed, the more points you will have to spend in the new trees.

Also, as always, make your guild crests and store them because you'll have another guild tier to level.

Hold off on any major gear purchases, because you won't really know what you're going to want/need until you've had a chance to play around with the trees and know a bit more about what your build will be. End-game gear will of course be losing value once the level cap goes up so no need to waste big cash yet.

If you don't have a house yet, or haven't unlocked all your chests, now is the time to do so. The newly expanded housing storage is EXPENSIVE. I mean, stupidly so. I and others are trying to get them to lower the costs, but who knows whether they will. I cannot express how outrageous the pricing is. Get those chests now while you can get them at a reasonable cost.


Overall, I am really, really excited about this expansion. To those who are wary, I say give it a chance. A lot of the negative drama we've been mired in over the past few weeks really has served to dampen what should really be a great deal of excitement about one of the best expansions we've had in a long time.

What I love about this game is that there is such a dedicated, passionate player base, and I can say this much to you now. Nothing I've seen in beta comes close to changing that. I think the hardcore LotRO players will continue to be engaged in this game, but more importantly, I think that engagement now, FINALLY, has room to grow. I really feel the changes to the classes are going to give us something to look forward to, and make it easier for the devs to blow us away in future updates.

It takes one keystroke and two mouse clicks to completely change specs, and it can be done anytime and anywhere as long as you are not in combat. People who realize that and take advantage of it, are going to find a LOT more varied play with their classes then those who stick with a single spec.

This is one thing I think a lot of people are missing when they gripe about lack of generalization. It's simply not as needed as it used to be. We no longer need to go to a bard to change our builds, we can do it anytime, anywhere. I think a lot of people are underestimating how awesome that is going to be.

Most players in Beta dislike the changes, this may or may not be the reason for not lifting the NDA on the beta forums. Decide for yourself.

Not true. Were there some really vocal whiners? Yeah, but that's to be expected. For the most part, in the hunter forum, people's posts were constructive and open-minded, and people had the presence of mind to focus on giving actionable beta feedback about features that were in the midst of change and development, rather than opinionated movie reviews that treated every build as though it was final. That was the essence of the difference between constructive feedback and the rants - that those who gave constructive feedback focused on what they thought was best for the class given the new direction the system was taking, while most rants focused on "me me me."

Helm's Deep is nowhere near as buggy as Riders of Rohan was this close to release. Fact.

I can confirm this!! LOL

Exactly. All of the feedback is listened to. Listening to feedback does not mean "do what I say". The beta testers using that definition of feedback have been disappointed. The rest of us have been pretty well satisfied.

Agreed 100%. I think there are some people who approach beta as though it's their chance to get everything they want, while there are others who approach beta as an opportunity to assist in making things optimal for the class based on the parameters we had to work with. Those who want everything their way are disappointed. I am grateful for that, because IMNSHO a lot of the problems with the classes, which led to these sweeping class changes, are directly because of devs caving in to some of the more unrealistic complaints and demands of players over the years.

Also, those who complain and complain based on their experience with Beta 1 and Beta 2, maybe if your patience is that low, maybe beta just isn't for you? Those were early builds. A LOT has changed. Dramatic changes were made in Beta 3 and especially Beta 4. Tons of the more dramatic changes were a direct result of player feedback.

Is there one person, just one who doesn't work for Turbine, who actually likes the changes, thinks that a year from now the game will be healthier than it has been this past year, that they'll be playing Battles come Spring, and some of the players who have left these past months will return to be engaged and keep playing happily?

Yes: me.

If you guys had to estimate, how much of the expansion content is BB? 30%? 40%? Is there still going to be mounted combat?

Hard to give percentages. There is a LOT of content that is not BB-related. Loads of new landscape content, of course the epics, and war-bands. I think even those who don't take to Big Battles will still find plenty to do.

I realize it's in the interest of some people who like class changes to make it look like there's this big stalemate with roughly even numbers of people who are for and against them. Yes, opinions on them varies, which aspect in life doesn't. But people coming here reading this thread should make no mistake - there is CLEAR MAJORITY of beta players who don't like or hate the changes. And there's data to support it.

Anyone who relies on that player poll for their information on how beta players feel about the changes is delusional at best. As primarily a venue for the disgruntled to vent their dislike, the results are heavily skewed negative. Most people do not take threads like that seriously or waste their time responding to them.

[Rufus_T_Fyrfly]

Like some have mentioned, I too, am on the fence over whether or not to purchase HD. Based on what I've read, I may hold off until the next expansion comes out. :shrug:

As for the class changes......well I really want to see how drastic the changes to Champ and Guardian are. Reading about them doesn't make me feel any better, though Guess I'll have to wait till next month to find out.

[Starborne]

My two 85s at the moment are a Minstrel and a Warden - am I screwed? And if so, what class should I level (I don't mind leveling another toon to level cap) ? For Moors and PvE?

PM me if you can, I'll try to reply ;D

[Gagmuk]

I happen to like the changes. Yes, it is somewhat of a shock at first but LOTRO is definitely still playable and fun.

The class changes: This is the only item players will have to get used to. the Classes are definitely different. Some will say they dont like it, some wont mind it and some ill love it. The final decision is up to you. Did Turbine or the Devs listen to us and read our comments, yes they did. Did we get everything we wanted, NO.. that just wont happen. The Devs stated numerous times that the changes are coming. I would say the largest effected class would be the Captain class, in my opinion. On live captains, can buff, spot heal and swap out to tank with no problem. in HD it will be set and limited to how you are Speced. BUT their is multiple spec tabs to use and or can aquire more via store. Not sure how many will start with think its 2 or 3 tabs. but can set up multiple specs and as long as you are not in combat you can swap out to a different spec. Does not matter if yer in town, middle of no where or the deepest dungeon in Moria, not in combat you can swap specs.

The Big Battles: This will be very confusing at first. Their is a lot to do in these battles, so dont let anyone kid ya if they claim they are easy. Turbine Will more than likley have basic tutorial for the battles in Bree not sure about MD or Thorins. When HD goes live and you want to try the big battles, Take yer time and look around the map before clicking on the npc to start it. see where everything is at. then no matter if solo, 6 man or full on raid just practice, it does seem to get a tad easier once you get the basics down. at first ya will want to pull yer hair out from not knowing what to do, so dont do that.

The quests: Of Course their is the Epic Quest line, then their is the local quests you will find in or near each town. some will auto pop up as you approach the area, some will show up in town as you complete quests. But for Helms deep if you cant find where to start or what to do first. I would strongly recommend that you follow the Epic Book line, the rest of the quests will fall into place.

Now, Remember Players were invited to make sure this product worked as intended. The Devs did listen to the testers in some aspects and used some of the ideas. In other cases, to quote a previous post.

We ASKED after beta 1 to allow in combat changes, NOTHING was said.
we asked after beta 1 to reduce the out of spec double point penalty NOTHiNG was said
we asked after beta 1 to give us back our skills, we got no response.
we not only asked but gave reasons why.

We also demanded to have agile rejoiner back for the hunters. BUT The devs did respond either Via forums or on the test server. But they did respond. Certain things were not going to change back and things are currently working as intended but may be changed at a later date but for now those Changes are here to stay.


So with that said, dont make up your mind if you hate it, love it etc. by reading others posts on here. If you are not sure, wait until HD comes out. see how players react on the live servers. Or wait until a friend gets it and he or she lets ya take a look it from their house. What ever you do don't form your opinion by what is posted in these forums.

Overall In closing

At first when Beta started I would not have had an opinion just yet, but with the changes over each beta update Specifically with the hunter bow master line, quests, graphics, maps epic quest line, even the battles, id Give helms deep 2 thumbs up at this point. Mind you tho Some things Are still being worked on as the Beta is not over, So things are still bound to change, be tweaked improved, made worse*we hope is not the case*, etc. etc..

I plan on enjoying Helms Deep and I Hope you will to, The Fellowship still needs you!!!!!

[NinjaGranny]

Not sure if we can mention the polls or the vocal minority .

The real pity is that the actual expac has been overshadowed by the skill trees / class reductions / gameplay changes .

I stopped posting for reasons some have stated below .

From my perspective
All classes have been dumbed down
All classes have massively less choice
All classes require no thought to play or construct - there will be no "learning curve" as you will have a choice of 2 or possibly 3 cookie cutter builds - and the 3 or 4 key mash needed to play them wont tax a slug
All classes can now be played whilst wearing thick gloves ( IE not many keys and thump thump see slug comment above )
Gameplay has been made so face-palmingly simple that its not worth it ( skills made into random procs , passive taunt , loss of choice loss of skills etc. etc.)
The massively increased DPS / BPE is a carrot - NB the stick will follow same as normal . Just remember that .

Scenery is great - as expected but it really is good
Big Battles should be good as well

Best advice is
Wait till DDAY before you do anything rash ( IE DON'T just delete kins / accounts) - the changes go live and maybe Lotro Lite will still have some attraction for you .
See if you can stomach the changes to all the classes and to the gameplay . If you can then great , buy HD and enjoy . If you can't then either put your account in stasis and pray or remember the good times and don't get bitter about whats happened and I'll see you when theres a festival on ( as I wont have to put up with the dumbed down game for those and can just enjoy the scenery and the fun )

[Widoch]

At first I was pretty shocked when I saw what we got in BETA 1. But I have to say that while there are things here and there that I may not be super thrilled with, building the player guides really gave me a chance to sit down, look at the classes and really digest what exactly has been done to them. I see where Turbine wants to go with them, I understand better now the purpose behind what is happening, and I went ahead and pre-ordered because now I'm ok with what I see.


Now that the NDA is dropped, before I even jumped on this thread, I could have made a list of all the chronically negative people that I'm sure were going to come here and do everything they could to complain. Sure enough, they're all here going full blast. My suggestion to people who did not get into BETA is to take everything here with a huge grain of salt. Give HD a chance, try out the class changes and after putting hours into them make your own decision based on what you enjoy in a game, have the resources to buy, and time to spend.

You'll find every post here ranging from the rage quitters to the Turbine tooshie smoochers. Really, the only thing you can do is give it a shot yourself.

[zagreb000]

What concerns me the most is that some roles in big battles wont be as fun as others... Meaning that people will avoid some roles and fight over others especially in pugs.... Then theres the issue some of the beta players are pointing out... You dont use your skills as much as you would want...I really dont like the idea of having to focus on clicking inanimate objects instead of playing my char.

So if you dont pvp, what top tier difficulty end game content should i play if i want to master my class....

Oh and im a bit confused.... Why do people keep saying that classes are dumbed down and overly simplified because of skill count reduction.... Creeps have fewer skills and they never complain that playing their classes is too easy...

[Thorgrum]

If the original warden changes had gone through until this stage (NDA drop) we would be seeing the Warden subforum exploding and going into nuclear meltdown right about now. The original plan was simply stunning.

Hence the point, turbine often goes overboard with changes. I mean, is there anyone who levels a toon now that is ever in danger of dying? Sure if you make a sloppy pull or something but for the most part all of the toons face roll the pve content. Mini's and Wardens were just the pinnacle of turbine making their game easy. On paper it looks like the trend has continued, we'll see.

[Herwegur]

Those that DID express an interest or ANY form of support for the changes were set upon by this vocal minority until they stopped posting in Beta General at all. This doesn't mean you're right, it only means some people have thinner skins than you.

Blatantly false. I have witnessed tremendous vitriol being poured on beta testers who opposed the changes and posted legitimate explanations of their point of view.

There were two kinds of supporters of the changes:
-Those who participated in the ongoing discussions with other players and expressed themselves in a mature and well-articulated manner - contributing to the community, not dividing it. They have my respect.
-And those who instead of doing the above, chose to complain about "all the negativity" and about "everyone moaning", personally attacking players who were strongly critical of the changes, insulting them, and dismissing their arguments out of hand, instead of engaging in an open and honest discussion about why we have different perspectives. Needless to say, this is not constructive and all it does is create a rift in the beta community. As a result, many beta testers who were critical of the changes stopped posting on the beta forums. I have been recipient of vitriol and personal shots just for posting my feedback that was not in "support" of certain things - even though I put time into carefully building my arguments and providing rationale for them. Turns out my skin was thicker than I thought, or I would have stopped posting as well.

Just putting things in perspective to give a more complete context to the situation.

[FittyBolger]

At first I was pretty shocked when I saw what we got in BETA 1. But I have to say that while there are things here and there that I may not be super thrilled with, building the player guides really gave me a chance to sit down, look at the classes and really digest what exactly has been done to them. I see where Turbine wants to go with them, I understand better now the purpose behind what is happening, and I went ahead and pre-ordered because now I'm ok with what I see.


Now that the NDA is dropped, before I even jumped on this thread, I could have made a list of all the chronically negative people that I'm sure were going to come here and do everything they could to complain. Sure enough, they're all here going full blast. My suggestion to people who did not get into BETA is to take everything here with a huge grain of salt. Give HD a chance, try out the class changes and after putting hours into them make your own decision based on what you enjoy in a game, have the resources to buy, and time to spend.

You'll find every post here ranging from the rage quitters to the Turbine tooshie smoochers. Really, the only thing you can do is give it a shot yourself.

Well... I'm going to call you nasty names now!

Actually your advice is the same as I am giving my kinships now = wait and try it yourself for a couple weeks and then decide for yourself.

You really shouldn't get down on the vocal minority though... Try looking at it in the light of people who really like LOTRO and genuinely feel the changes are dreadful. We were willing to fight for our cause right up until the hammer was lowered on us.
My views haven't changed because my game experience hasn't improved.

I'm not rage quitting and I will make the best I can of a bad situation while continuing to express my opposition to the changes.
I feel Hytbold was drudgery but I completed it all the same because it had some rewards and I did enjoy building my town. (on ONE of my level capped characters)
Wildermore was a total fail... only did the quests there.
I don't "want" Helm's Deep to continue as "strike three" but I can't just say "all is well" either.

For the Shire! And the vocal minority!

[Herwegur]

What concerns me the most is that some roles in big battles wont be as fun as others... Meaning that people will avoid some roles and fight over others especially in pugs.... Then theres the issue some of the beta players are pointing out... You dont use your skills as much as you would want...I really dont like the idea of having to focus on clicking inanimate objects instead of playing my char.

So if you dont pvp, what top tier difficulty end game content should i play if i want to master my class....

My only hope is that the Battles system will be revisited after it goes live. Having tested it and having run several of them, I found myself not engaged enough into the participation and interaction with what is going on. The visuals are great, the spectacle is great. Standing there, you do feel like you are on a real battle front, and you feel the presence of armies and crowds with pre-battle tension. They nailed the general atmosphere.
But the problem is, this atmosphere and spectacle can only be appreciated when you are simply there for immersion. Once the battle is joined and things start happening, the mechanics have been disappointing for me. I am not a clicky type, so the role of Engineer got a bit old for me fast. My main is a Lore-master, and role of vanguard was not very suitable (tried it, kept dying. I was being upscaled to 95 from my level 57, so I suspect there are still some stat issues to balance that haven't been sorted yet). That leaves only officer role, but that too implies clicking and interacting - not objects in this case but NPCs. I spent entirely too much time clicking and looking at 'command windows' (or whatever they are called) than actually playing in an engaged way. The graphics and atmospheric details are great, but with these roles and these tasks and these clickings around I felt like I was missing the forest for the trees, which diminished my enjoyment.

There is potential there, I don't want to be dismissive of the entire system. But the complexity of new mechanics is unnecessarily complex. People criticize BB's by comparing them to skirmishes, I actually wish they were more like skirmishes where you get to throw your punches and heals with utter freedom and don't get bogged down clicking on things instead.
This is only the beginning though, fingers crossed that the system will get a re-evaluation and be made more intuitive and immersive.

[J_Howell]

Something I haven't seen discussed anywhere - how are the level 95 armor sets acquired? Or are there no such armor sets in the initial release? I was surprised to see that the Big Battles will end up rewarding class jewelry sets, since I'd assuming that would be our armor grind this time...

Just to be perfectly clear, when I say armor sets, I'm only referring to the baseline, almost-anyone-can-get-it sets analogous to Hytbold, Draigoch, and Moria sets in the past. Not sure there will be additional level 95 armor sets analogous to the past raid armor sets (ToO, Erebor, etc.) since they've said there will be no new raids in the foreseeable future.

[Atheling]

Nothing on armour sets yet that I'm aware of.

[Milogson]

OK, loooong beta, short story:

Changes were announced. Changes came. Changes were made during all beta rounds. Some for the better, some for the worse.
Class trait/skill trees will come. Off-spec penalties will come. I did not like that, neither the tone it was delivered in, nor the actual fact, but I accepted it as a fixed point Turbine saw as unalterable.

All in all I am proud to say that I am part of the "vocal minority".
That I did not stop giving (hopefully) creative, constructive, but (sorry to say this) mostly negative feedback on most class/trait/skill changes until something meaningful happened.
I always endeavoured to give my opinion linked to specific cases in the game; and I always tried to offer suggestions how I imagined changes could be made that would be positive, balanced, and still implementable within the specific time limits.

I am not sure if any of my suggestions were picked up but I hope my posts at least gave food for thought to both other beta testers and the devs. I know that I do not see eye-to-eye with many posters on both the beta and live forums but I respect their opinions.

Yes, for me beta 3 was the start of beta testing *yeah, I'm somewhat of a late bloomer *. But the shock was harsh. I could have sworn never to touch this game again. I saw the death of LotrO on the horizon and very vocally announced my belief of that 'fact' on the beta forums.

Yet I also swore a solemn oath that I would not rest until beta was over to test, test, test, and post, post, post feedback.
No matter the time and effort. I did not, and do not want LotRO to suffer. I just love the game too much.

But, lo and behold, both the devs and the game started to surprise me. In many cases the devs definitely listened to the players (and I do hope they will continue to do so during beta as well after release). Even the trait trees have started to grow on me in some classes (LM, warden, champ, somewhat on the RK) while in others I still despise them (mini). But even with a lot of free time on my hands I still could not test as much as I wanted as the server was down or closed for such long stretches of time. That is probably the greatest quibble I had during the whole beta.

Yes, I made the same mistake almost everyone does at the beginning: I spent all of my skill points in one tree and maxed out all skills and wanted to see what was left over.
Argh.
Not much at level 85. Not nearly enough to give me as much versatility as on the current live version.

So I re-speced my tree for some silver (appr. the same as a full trait respec at the bard on current live) and tried a hybrid build. Until I noticed the four tabs on my tree screen.
NOTE: these tabs will be reduced to two tabs for free, and more can be bought (for how much on release I do not know and don't want to speculate about right now).
Similar to the MC mount trait specs, or the LI item slots.

Each tab holds one spec, no matter if one-tree-spec'ed or hybrid-spec'ed across all three trees. So you can switch back and forth between these two tabs to quickly change your specs for no further cost. Just open your trait window with 'J' , click a tab, select the 'apply', presto: re-spec'ed (as long as you are out-of-combat). If you don't like this spec build, just click the 'Re-specialization' button, affirm the change and pay the silver, and you can change your whole setup on the fly, where-ever you are (again, as long as are out-of-combat).

So then I tried several different builds in different trees, even full-hybrid builds.

Yes, you still can build a hybrid-build with MOST, but definitely not ALL of your skills.
Yes, those skills will work somewhat differently in many cases as to what they are doing on live.
Yes, you will (probably) be able to recognize most of your old skills from live.
Yes, there will have been many changes to how many these old skills work.
Yes, some old skills will be gone (sniff, bye-bye, Agile Rejoinder, you were a good friend. We fought for you tooth and nail. Alas, to no avail. AT LEAST UNTIL NOW. But we shall not give up the fight.
Err, ummm, sorry, I digress.)

But many new skills will appear (for many classes at least).

If you intelligently slot the most used (basic) class skills into your main skill bar, and move those skills you use more rarely or those which are gated in skill trees into bar 2 and 3 you can avoid most of the hassle of having to change skills everytime you re-spec. In that case the game actually already supports the saving of skill bar setups. Only if you move all of your skills into your main skill bar (especially those you get from deeper in a tree) then the saving of skill positions on a skill bar does not (yet) work adequately. But hold your breath, maybe the devs can get something done there.

***
Big battles: well, the basic concept is very nice. I had great hopes for a much more fluid battle scenario with large bands of soldiers roaming useful defensive positions, maybe making forays into the enemy lines and withdrawing. Or even a fighting retreat due to ever increasing numbers of enemies rushing through a gap in the wall at Helm's Deep.

What I have found is currently a somewhat static fight-to-the-death scenario with several positions being held by squads of soldiers and their commanders. Although it certainly does give a good impression of the chaos of battle and the smallness of a single individual (even if they are as powerful as our characters) it also requires quite a lot of experience to run somewhat smoothly.

In the beginning it can definitely be a bit overwhelming, not to say chaotic. Hopefully you can find someone from the beta who will guide you through one of the epic battles (EBs) for the first time.

I personally do not believe that the EBs are ready for release yet; and I also don't see any possibility of them reaching that state within the next two weeks, no matter how good the devs are. But I am always open for (positive) surprises.

There are still many bugs in them which cause them to be an exercise in frustration as the side missions in many cases can not be ended consistently (or in some case not at all). As these side missions are essential for reaching the coveted platinum medal and platinum loot award this can be very frustrating to see loot vanish due to a bug. Anyone remember Draigoch freezing/bugging? Similar to that. Yet there is hope that at least the worst bugs will be removed during the next two weeks (or a delay is announced). We shall see.

As a side-note: I find LM's to be massively OP in the epic battles due to their versatility and especially the healing pet giving mass heals to all soldiers in the area. Makes it soooo easy to win.

***

Last note:
To all players from Maiar; I will probably be on during release day on Maiar with one of my toons.

These are: Milogson, Dhergon, Lhon, Eithaliel, Saeleanor, Saerena, Korli, Eorbrand, or Amarantia.

Yes I am a native German speaker. Ja, Leute, ich spreche wirklich Deutsch. Harhar.

I will offer help to all those who are courteous enough not to badger me with incessantly repeated questions. I will try to post answers on the Maiar server channel (not in the Maiar-SNG).
If anyone is on who would like to help me answer a repeated question I would be very grateful for copy/pasting answers already given.

To all those who have successfully pissed me off during my long time playing: you now might find out if you are on my ignore list. Tough luck. That's the result of choosing to be impolite or a boor.

[bohbashum]

Burglar by bobhashum
Minstrel by bobhashum

He stole my threads!!!

bob has hum?

bohbashum!!!!!!!

XDXDXDXDXDXDXD

[asuekim]

Not having as much play as usual, my thoughts are simple, it seems the helms deep instance will benefit larger groups as many roles and areas need to be governed. kind of seems to leave the odd man out. As for the design I get it and should prove quite a challenge. IMO understanding the ranking and merit system may prove to show flaws and performance issues if not understood fully.

[Zombielord]

Players will need to adapt to a new way of doing things if they decide to hang around to learn.

The only thing Lotro has going for it is the lore, there are games that offer better graphics, better pvp, better raiding and better skill systems then Lotro. Competition is tough in the world of mmos and to drive away lots of people who have been very happy with this game is not helping Lotro stay alive.

It only costs twice as many points because in spec is 1 point. You could just as easily say "It only costs an extra point to trait out of spec." Are you one of those who would prefer that in spec costs 2 points, and out of spec costs 3 so that it FEELS like a deal???? (Yes, that was suggested which is why I brought it up.) Or would you like to start messing around with half points???

Actually I am one of those who would prefer a real working skill tree and not one that requires me to keep playing with 1/3 of the skills I used to have.

Those that DID express an interest or ANY form of support for the changes were set upon by this vocal minority until they stopped posting in Beta General at all. This doesn't mean you're right, it only means some people have thinner skins than you.

You mean those people who ridiculed others with quotes like: "New trait trees are coming, leave if you don't like it LOLOLOL" or "Can I have your stuff if you quit?"
How very interesting... Now that the NDA has been lifted the 'majority supporting the changes' everyone was talking about is now gone.

[ShireDweller]

My only hope is that the Battles system will be revisited after it goes live. Having tested it and having run several of them, I found myself not engaged enough into the participation and interaction with what is going on. The visuals are great, the spectacle is great. Standing there, you do feel like you are on a real battle front, and you feel the presence of armies and crowds with pre-battle tension. They nailed the general atmosphere.
But the problem is, this atmosphere and spectacle can only be appreciated when you are simply there for immersion. Once the battle is joined and things start happening, the mechanics have been disappointing for me. I am not a clicky type, so the role of Engineer got a bit old for me fast. My main is a Lore-master, and role of vanguard was not very suitable (tried it, kept dying. I was being upscaled to 95 from my level 57, so I suspect there are still some stat issues to balance that haven't been sorted yet). That leaves only officer role, but that too implies clicking and interacting - not objects in this case but NPCs. I spent entirely too much time clicking and looking at 'command windows' (or whatever they are called) than actually playing in an engaged way. The graphics and atmospheric details are great, but with these roles and these tasks and these clickings around I felt like I was missing the forest for the trees, which diminished my enjoyment.

There is potential there, I don't want to be dismissive of the entire system. But the complexity of new mechanics is unnecessarily complex. People criticize BB's by comparing them to skirmishes, I actually wish they were more like skirmishes where you get to throw your punches and heals with utter freedom and don't get bogged down clicking on things instead.
This is only the beginning though, fingers crossed that the system will get a re-evaluation and be made more intuitive and immersive.

Right now running a solo Epic Battle feels like performing one of those "plate-spinning" acts you used to see on old variety shows - you have to run back and forth from commander to ballista to catapult, pause to knock over a few ladders and cut some grappling hooks, then loop around and get back to the commanders, running around like a maniac and trying to keep all the plates in the air.

Everything you need to do other than DPS-ing something brings up a little interface panel with clicky buttons. You can easily get tired of seeing them. As you earn points to spend on improving your vocations, some of the clicky actions take less time, and more options open up for you to use. But it still boils down to a lot of time spent using new interfaces to get through to the end. It feels more like having a battle happen around you than being in the middle of a fight.

I agree that there is promise in the concept, and share your hope that the Epic Battle system can be refined in the future.

Edited to add: I encourage players to seek out videos of the Epic Battle gameplay. I learned a lot and saw some things I will try in the future. I can definitely see that some classes have more of an advantage when it comes to actual fighting.

[Adanirian]

The feeling of happiness you get when you kill your kinnie on the other side is simply beautiful (evil grin).

You can say that again!!!

[Lohi]

Class changes are awful. This is now a completely different game than I originally purchased, and not for the better.

But every year we've had class changes. Some have been very major changes. The classes that we play in Rohan are NOT the same classes we purchased 6 years ago! So I'm still baffled why there's so much despair now but not so much in the past.

[Minquinn]

Like some have mentioned, I too, am on the fence over whether or not to purchase HD. Based on what I've read, I may hold off until the next expansion comes out. :shrug:

As for the class changes......well I really want to see how drastic the changes to Champ and Guardian are. Reading about them doesn't make me feel any better, though Guess I'll have to wait till next month to find out.

The class changes really don't bother me just like any MMO they will be changed so much from what we get in the release that we will have forgotten how bad they were at first.

I was considering buying Helms Deep. I know some can not believe that. My biggest gripe in the last xpac was the randomness with rewards for doing the end game content. While Hytbold was one way to obtain things you needed, instance were the other. I have heard that the end result of spamming these Epic Battles results in a random loot chest. Wow is that disappointing. So how many times am I going to have to run these Epic Battles before I get something I need? Is the same necklace going to drop from the reward 10 times in a row (then they will only be vendorable) or can I just expect relics and bounties?

The last loot system left me scratching my head on a daily basis, can I expect this is not going to change?

That would keep me from buying HD. Like I said before I still enjoy the content 1-75 can I expect the 85-95 to be even worse than 75-85?