Official Discussion: Helm's Deep NDA Drop.

[Granlu]

I don't won't to repeat everything others have said about HD or the battles. I won't argue who is right and who is wrong. Everyone plays different and everyone has their own goals and everyone is very attached to their characters. What I do want to say is this. I hope you will stay and give it a chance. Don't make your mind up the first day or second. It will take a while to realize how things actually fit together. I am a Lore Master. When I first saw the trees, I got angry. I was so disappointed and I actually was afraid that I couldn't play my character ever again. I felt like this all the way through beta 3. Then with beta 4 and 5, it seemed to come together a little bit. The biggest decisions you will make is which skills you want to try to reach. For me, I love dps and always have but at the same time I loved my pet. I had to pick and choose some of the blue tree and some from the red tree until I was somewhat satisfied. You can make different sets of skills also that can be switched between battle if you choose. For a lore master, we are a jack-of-all-trades. You may have to give up that notice. You will not be able to have ALL the skills at the same time that you are used to playing with. At the same time though, you can come up with a similar and pretty good build. It took me a very long time to do that because of the confusion and figuring out where all the skills were at in each tree. Some things I love about Helms Deep is now we can bring our pets out during battle. No more waiting til the fight is over. There are some new skills and I noticed some of the drops on jewelry, etc. are really nice. The music in game is totally awesome. The landscape is so beautiful with the blue. red and golden flowers scattered among the fields. It is breathtaking!

The one thing though of everything I want to relay to you is this. A lot of people gave their best to help bring about these changes in beta. It was a very hard job and was the hardest beta I ever encountered. You may not like everything you see or experience with HD but remember a lot of us were pulling for you, trying our best to make things right and get the changes we know you would want. Some of our suggestions were implemented and some weren't. We really put up a battle for each and every class to come out the best it could be under the circumstances. So when you finally get to see it all for yourself just remember one thing,,, You did not see it at it's worse. I thank every single beta tester, every dev that listened and worked with us, and although I don't like everything about these changes, I love Lotro and will hang in there as long as my health allows. Have fun, that truly is what it should all be about. Hugs!

[Lohi]

Loremaster was an odd one.

This reminds me of lore master changes with Moria, where it was confused the most with the translation from pre-Moria. It felt like it had to have trait sets because all classes had to have them, but the traits did not fit rationally into three distinct categories. Three trait sets were big strait jacket, and having them in trees likely won't loosen it. Granted, DPS is fun but I was hoping to get back to a saner support class (or a game that had room for support classes).

Are we still in a blue=tank/heal, red=dps, yellow=support/grabbag/oddities for all classes?

For minstrels, I don't know. It's not the class Orion left. For better or worse, that's gone.

But it's currently not the class we started with either, and the Isengard changes drastically upended the feel of it. Harmony never really worked or found a niche and seemed to exist only because they needed 3 stances (sort of worked ok in skirmish raids though). So upending it again will probably feel familiar I guess.

I also remember in Moria how many minstrels from beta predicted doom, and many put theirs on hold until the first patch (I had lots of alts so I put mine on hold).

It's no fun being on the fringes of the battle.

But there's nothing in Helm's Deep that would be the main battle, no? Basically the only ones who weren't on the fringes were the army led by Gandalf arriving at the end.

[Lohi]

My personal opinion is that HD is at least a month away from a successful launch.

But would it be playable even if it has probelms? With Rohan they delayed the release, and at the time I thought this was a very good thing and that there was a lot of work necessary. However at the time the original release date rolled around it actually was pretty much usable even though it would have needed a patch very soon after. So I wonder if Turbine management is in the boat of hoping it'll be good enough to play with patches coming soon after rather than delay things yet again. Remember, the single-player game model is generally to release something a bit too soon and then shove out patches later (think Skyrim).

[rctman]

...were set upon by this vocal minority until they stopped posting in Beta General at all.

I'm with the vocal minority on the topic of how the trait trees and out of spec penalties were implemented - and I'm fairly certain that we took our fair share of hits. From where I was sitting, there was plenty of scorched earth all around.

The out of spec penalty is particularly regressive to lower level characters. In order to select a Tier 2 trait, you will need to allocate 5 points at Tier 1 and so on... in your specialized line, those 5 points cost 5 trait points... In an out of spec line, those same 5 allocated points will cost you 10 of your trait points. If you have completed all of your class and legendary deeds at L85, you should have 55 points to spend - so a serviceable hybrid build may be possible. For those who are working with lower level characters, the cost of hybridization appears to me to be somewhat prohibitive. On the other hand, folks have speculated that you will really come into your own by the time the game gets to Mordor...

Which is part of why the regressive implementation strikes me as being unfortunate - I don't think that this particular approach "honors" the commitment that people have already made to developing their characters. Those legendary traits that you spent hours on? Replaced by an incremental integer signifying deed completion. The current system encourages degrees of class trait specialization by providing bonuses... If you choose to work with a hybrid build, the "penalty" is the loss of a potential bonus. The new system will also grant bonuses as you advance within a trait line, but choosing to specialize will cost you both in the sense that you are leaving bonuses unclaimed and by charging double for the privilege.

I do think people should try out the changes for themselves before making up their minds.

[DanteIL]

The other thing that players should be aware of with Helm's Deep is that the majority of the normal landscape quests are actually gated behind the Epic Quest line. That is, the first thing that you will do is receive a note from Horn telling you to go to the Entwade Ford and then there you will be sent BACK to Nona's cave and then from there you will sent BACK AGAIN to the Ford where you will be allowed to enter West Rohan proper. But, even then, the landscape will not have quests for you, like you may expect -- at least not yet. You have to go to Edoras and do the Epic storyline there first before being sent back out into Rohan for the bulk of the landscape quests. This is yet another consequence of the Epic line being "inextricably intertwined" with HD.

[Lohi]

skills in your specialization cost 1 point each, and skills in the other two trees cost 2 points each. This mechanic is what really limits your ability to create hybrid builds

This is the part I'm wondering about, what was the rationalization for it? Already today we are heavily discouraged from getting a hybrid build (at least if we want to get into groups), because the set bonuses are just so large. And yet before Moria the "hybrid" builds were perfectly natural and commonplace. So now, we get a penalty from not getting trait line bonuses, but also a penalty to the cost. The devs must really hate having hybrid players.

Off the bat, having a 1.5 point penalty would be ok, as in pay 1 point, then 2, then 1, etc. However if things are undoubtedly balanced around 55 points then that change could mess things up too much.

How much of a pain is it to swap builds between combat? That seems like the redeeming factor. Ie, you can't be hybrid single-target and area-target but you could switch between fights. The drawback is with those skills you might need at any time (such as in-combat rez even if you're running with dps).

[Ryvick]

The Top Three problems in what could have been an incredible expansion:

A. I have said it before and I will keep saying it till those in charge understand. Trait trees are inherently faulty and will not work.

1. You are required to get through poor traits to get to good traits by design.

2. You are asked to spend twice the number of points in any other tree besides the primary.

3. You only get a single trait point every 2 levels but whereas on live you get a new or improved skill every 2-3 levels your looking at placing a point in a pointless trait every 2 to 4 levels (If you put a point in an off tree your looking at wasting 4 levels!).

4. There are only about 2 traits in each row of each tree so your looking at very little choice at ALL! One of those traits is almost always 5 ranks of some absurd Mastery rating!

5. Fully traited you are looking at having about HALF the strength your character ever had on live. Overall a class does have more skills than currently on live but considering 3/4ths are locked behind the trait trees you will never have more than half the skills you have access to on live (More likely 1/3rd).


Overall, Devs will spend more time tinkering with these absurd trees each expansion even though they state that the 2 to 1 point costs in off trees are designed so they don't have to look at the trees every expansion. The lack of skills is supposedly to ease development and yet they will still have to develop as if every character has access to all their skills anyway. Again and again this just looks like a boneheaded move that will only be discovered too late!

B. Threat Changes are going to be poorly thought out in conjunction with problem C. Its going to look like the same problem the threat changes in Moria launch (DPS out of Control with the LI DPS till it was nerfed and No way for Tanks to Control Aggro until Aggro Gen increased on Threat skills aka "Moria Threat Fiasco").

1. Threat generation is going to be primarily DPS based.

2. Tanks will have little inherent Threat Generation other than the 300% modifier on their base damage. I do not see tanks being able to do 1/3rd the DPS of a full DPS class.

3. Tanks will be getting threat catch up added to their Snap Taunts, however this amounts to little more than "Threat +1". and We will be looking at tanks doing nothing but attempting to DPS and waiting on their Snap Taunts to get off Cooldown.

C. This is where I put the Obscene Stat increases on Gear. Most players call it Stat inflation. A lot of people knows what happens to a game that doesnt handle their stat inflation well. Blizzard had even posted a lengthy article about the troubles unchecked stat inflation had been doing to their own game. You can see further problems with unchecked stat inflation in the end game of SWTOR on Makeb and anywhere in the StormLegion Expansion in Rift. You start seeing Mobs with obscene amounts of health and a lack of players running around when they get bored of just standing there whittling away at Enemy NPC health.
Stat progression needs to be tightly controlled and as linear as possible to limit Stat Inflation and absurd jumps in both player stats and Enemy NPC stats that just stat spiraling out of control.



Those are the biggest problems of this Expansion.


This could have been one of my Favorite Expansions with the Big Battles, and Western Rohan. Instead I am dreading every day this gets closer. It's Sad.

[frickinmuck]

A lot of people gave their best to help bring about these changes in beta. It was a very hard job and was the hardest beta I ever encountered. You may not like everything you see or experience with HD but remember a lot of us were pulling for you, trying our best to make things right and get the changes we know you would want. Some of our suggestions were implemented and some weren't. We really put up a battle for each and every class to come out the best it could be under the circumstances. So when you finally get to see it all for yourself just remember one thing,,, You did not see it at it's worse. I thank every single beta tester, every dev that listened and worked with us, and although I don't like everything about these changes, I love Lotro and will hang in there as long as my health allows. Have fun, that truly is what it should all be about. Hugs!

Definitely. Everyone who wasn't in beta should know that those of us who were really worked hard and for many hours to ensure things are the best they can be. Of all the betas I've done, this one was by far the most intense. I think that was partly because the changes were so major, but also because there was so much backlash and fear among players outside beta that it really felt like the stakes were high.

But would it be playable even if it has probelms? With Rohan they delayed the release, and at the time I thought this was a very good thing and that there was a lot of work necessary. However at the time the original release date rolled around it actually was pretty much usable even though it would have needed a patch very soon after. So I wonder if Turbine management is in the boat of hoping it'll be good enough to play with patches coming soon after rather than delay things yet again. Remember, the single-player game model is generally to release something a bit too soon and then shove out patches later (think Skyrim).

Things are definitely playable in their current state. The only thing that I feel any doubts about are a couple of the Big Battles. As I said earlier, the battles are still rough around the edges in some areas. I don't know what it will take to bring them into a launch-ready state because I don't know what's required to fix some of the issues, but they are pretty close. I don't feel NEARLY as nervous about the readiness of this expansion as I did with RoR. Things are definitely a lot more polished than they were at the same stage with RoR.

How much of a pain is it to swap builds between combat? That seems like the redeeming factor. Ie, you can't be hybrid single-target and area-target but you could switch between fights. The drawback is with those skills you might need at any time (such as in-combat rez even if you're running with dps).

It's super easy. As easy as swapping between mounted combat builds. As for the double point cost in off-trees, people are upset about that because they want to be able to have everything the way it is on live. I can't help but feel those people are still in denial a bit, and haven't really embraced the changes. They basically want the exact build they have on live, and that's not how things are now. But they don't REALLY need to be. We have a lot of power and specialization now, and as we level up and get more points we will become more and more powerful. I honestly don't think the 2 point penalty hurts all that much. The builds we have right now in beta are good even with the penalty, and they're only going to get better. And with spec swapping, we really do have access to every skill/trait almost all of the time. Certainly more than on live. I think the view that we are somehow limited by these trees is a bit short-sighted.

You only get a single trait point every 2 levels but whereas on live you get a new or improved skill every 2-3 levels your looking at placing a point in a pointless trait every 2 to 4 levels .

Not entirely. Class deeds give points as well, not just leveling.

Fully traited you are looking at having about HALF the strength your character ever had on live. Overall a class does have more skills than currently on live but considering 3/4ths are locked behind the trait trees you will never have more than half the skills you have access to on live (More likely 1/3rd).

That is an exaggeration at best. Unless your gear and level are significantly lower on beta than they are on live (which would just be strange) I can't see how you can say classes are half as powerful as they are on live. That's just simply not true, at least, not for the classes I played.

As for the skills - an end-game player always has access to pretty much all the skills on all the trees at all times, they just have to swap builds to access some of them. And as we level and get more points, we will have more and more access to get deeper into the off-trees on our main builds.

[trancejeremy]

Hence the point, turbine often goes overboard with changes. I mean, is there anyone who levels a toon now that is ever in danger of dying? Sure if you make a sloppy pull or something but for the most part all of the toons face roll the pve content. Mini's and Wardens were just the pinnacle of turbine making their game easy. On paper it looks like the trend has continued, we'll see.

Actually, I see a lot of people have difficulty in Ered Luin, in the Vinyard. There are a lot of goblins and if you are still using the starter gear, it can be tough if you are fighting 2 or more. I've seen more than a few people die there in recent months as I play alts.

Beyond that, so much of the game's difficulty is based on gear. Where I am at in the game, at 76, I have about less morale on my champ than mobs my level do. I've seen other characters my level with much less. And then you have people with twice as much.

It's pretty much always the people with the best gear (and virutes and so forth) that complain the game is too easy.

[TheStormKing]

Region, Epic and Quests: Similar to what we've had before. Turbine's world design team have excelled, as usual. It is still Rohan, but unique from East Rohan, with some amazing eye candy (Edoras and Helm's Deep, for example. The pictures don't do either justice).

Epic Battles: Chaotic and fun. They can take some getting used to at first, as you are dropped in the, ahem, "deep" end. The scale is spot on and very impressive.

Class Changes: Big and sweeping, and undoubtedly controversial. The most important thing with these is to give them a chance. They are very different to what we have on live, but the core elements of classes remain intact. Skills may be gated or found on the trees, while others are merged or accessed via procs, etc. After the initial shock wears off, you may find you really like the changes. I know I do. Not only have skills generally been improved, but cooldowns have been mostly decreased across the board. All classes also have a slew of new skills, specific to various trait trees.

-Bel

Ah, Bel. The greatest of all Turbine's apologists. And you do it for free, to the mystery and wonderment of all sane men.

The classes do not have "a slew" of new skills. Most classes have been gutted, and have significantly FEWER skills. How can you not SAY that? The fact that you don't tells more than you would like.

The class changes are absolutely, unequivocably for the worse. They were made so that Turbine can develop new content easier, with no real consideration for the fun of the player.

To me, these changes embody an absolute disregard to what the current population purchased and played. The social contract has been cast away, and all players now know the very real truth: this isn't your game, and Turbine WILL do whatever they wish.

I have no doubt that the casual player, more interested in cosmetics and Bree, will like these changes. The game has been made drastically simpler, and thus, easier. They have moved virtually ALL of the incombat decisions to out of combat tree choosing. It's boring to actual gamers, like myself. But, I now know that I am actually not their target audience.

To the players of LotRO, just know that I fought as hard as I could against this, in every way I could. Not a single word was heeded. This was rammed down our throats, and there was NOTHING anyone could do about it.

Turbine undoubtedly will point to the Beta, and how many changes they made due to player feedback. Good for them. They took LotRO, gutted it, and presented a shadow of its former self that was a 2 out of 10. Player feedback certainly improved that, to probably a 3 out of 10. Turbine would love to say that their game is "50% better because of the players in Beta", but everyone knows that what we had was an 8 out of 10, knows it is less than half as good as it ever was.

Poor showing, Turbine. I'm embarrassed for you.

[TheStormKing]

How much of a pain is it to swap builds between combat?

Depends. If you want to swap to an entirely different build, say red to yellow, and you have the other build ready to go, great!

If you want to make a small mod to your current build, you are out of luck. You will have to reclick an entire tree, if you want to make a single change to your build. And you will either have to overwrite your current build, or purchase another build tree.

This was by design, so that your pain and inconvenience can be monetized. Huge suckfest.

[Cefely]

To those claiming that it is so easy to switch builds now (out of combat)...what about when you're in the heat of battle and need to call upon that one skill that is probably now hidden in another build, to fix a situation that arose? (CC's, tanks, etc) This does happen a lot. It is not a rare thing, in all prior areas of the game leading up to HD anyway. Explain please, how all of the new, 'distinctive' SKILL trees will handle this?

Also, still wondering about my question from page 4. No comment or opinion as to why Turbine has spent the last couple of years making this a solo-friendly game and are now forcing our classes into more grouping-friendly roles....without developing any grouping content? I am genuinely curious about this, and confused. If they are planning on going back to more group content in the future, one would think they would mention it?

[Belnavar]

The classes do not have "a slew" of new skills. Most classes have been gutted, and have significantly FEWER skills. How can you not SAY that? The fact that you don't tells more than you would like.

It is already fairly well known that some skills have been removed, merged, gated, or otherwise moved around, and Turbine has been talking about reducing total available skill count since January. What is not as widely known is the fact that there are also several new skills, including new corruption removal and stun removal skills for many classes (perhaps all -- I didn't get a chance to check every class), and others like (to use Captain as an example) the following: Strength in Numbers, Reform the Lines!, and Gallant Display, and that is only listing a few of them. It would be erroneous to just say "we lost skills" when we also gained skills, and arguably we did not lose the functionality of any skills we lost. But, for anyone who is curious, don't take my word for it (or TheStormKing's) -- look at the class summaries and you will see for yourself.

-Bel

[TheStormKing]

I can't help but notice that the few posters who give these changes favorable reviews keep using the word "distinctive."

I noticed that too. It's like they were given talking points by Fox News.

Hybrid builds have been nuked. Claiming it's better in the name of.... *vomit*.... "Distinctiveness" smacks of just wordplay to get around the reality.

[Nouri]

So Turbine made most of our skills inaccessible so that they had to do no real class upgrades down the road? We just grind more points in future updates to regain access to skills we have now, huh? Thanks, Turbine :/

[Jurny]

Depends. If you want to swap to an entirely different build, say red to yellow, and you have the other build ready to go, great!

If you want to make a small mod to your current build, you are out of luck. You will have to reclick an entire tree, if you want to make a single change to your build. And you will either have to overwrite your current build, or purchase another build tree.

This was by design, so that your pain and inconvenience can be monetized. Huge suckfest.

I just wanted to add to what he said, although I'm not quite sure if it's been mentioned, but something you will have to think about when switching from 1 build to another , you will most likely need to have another set of armor, jewelry, and weapons for the other builds and you'll need to switch that out as well. Which also means more bag space taken up. :/

[KarooOstrich]

Well... This is the reason they are giving us for it Nouri...

I don't buy it tbh, no need for it in a 7year old game with an established player base.

13 to go...

[TheStormKing]

arguably we did not lose the functionality of any skills we lost.

This is patently false. Why are you lying?

But, for anyone who is curious, don't take my word for it (or TheStormKing's)

Everyone is free to take my word for it. I speak the truth, unfettered by... well, anything.

[Belnavar]

So Turbine made most of our skills inaccessible so that they had to do no real class upgrades down the road? We just grind more points in future updates to regain access to skills we have now, huh? Thanks, Turbine :/

That is only part of it. Turbine has confirmed that there is also room to add more traits and additional ranks to existing traits in future expansions. So it is unlikely to be merely a matter of giving us more points to spend (though that will certainly be part of the equation, probably 5-10 points per expansion).

-Bel

[Namesse]

So Turbine made most of our skills inaccessible so that they had to do no real class upgrades down the road? We just grind more points in future updates to regain access to skills we have now, huh? Thanks, Turbine :/

It will be easier for Turbine to add a rank of some useless stat that gates a skill you want, keeping it inaccessible. For those who think that by the time they reach Mordor they will finally! be able to fill out a second tree, they're going to be disappointed. It's only an illusion of progression to see that you've gained more points, but you still can't reach your goal.

[jadacakai]

New areas look great.

Classes have had a huge revamp, some good , some hard to adjust to. Overall, it felt good to me playing through all my toons.

To those that constantly gave feedback and helped shape the new trees, well done.

A lot of negativity without proper feedback did make listening to OOC/glff and the beta forums a chore.

Yes its different, yes it will make you rethink.

“Nothing is so painful to the human mind as a great and sudden change.”
? Mary Shelley, Frankenstein

“To improve is to change; to be perfect is to change often.”
? Winston Churchill

[Belnavar]

This is patently false. Why are you lying?

Let's see some examples from the Captain class:

1. Captain has lost the three Tactics skills, but has it lost their functionality? No. Sure Strike now triggers the applicable Tactics buff (which is much stronger than it is on live, with Focus actually now being useful) when the Captain is in a Battle-readied state. Tactics is therefore now an active part of the battle, not something we apply beforehand and reapply whenever we wipe or someone dies.

2. In Defence of Middle-earth no longer exists as a separate skill, but is merged with Motivating Speech. No Captain will have to choose between another legendary and IDOME, as it will come as standard at the appropriate level.

3. War-cry has been removed as a skill, but the -15% Attack Duration buff and the +5% damage buff are triggered by Routing Cry and Rallying Cry respectively when traited in Lead the Charge or Hands of Healing.

4. Cry of Vengeance has been removed as a separate skill, but merges with Escape from Darkness when properly traited in Hands of Healing.

What is "patently false" about this? Sure, there are likely examples of skills that were simply axed entirely (though I cannot think of any for the Captain), but the above shows that it is not a simple matter of "my skills are gone," as you are making out. Again, players can read the class summaries and see for themselves, and then play on 18 November and experience it for themselves.

Everyone is free to take my word for it. I speak the truth, unfettered by... well, anything.

-Bel

[kickman77]

Sorry thats just plain rubbish.

We ASKED after beta 1 to allow in combat changes, NOTHING was said.
we asked after beta 1 to reduce the out of spec double point penalty NOTHiNG was said
we asked after beta 1 to give us back our skills, we got no response.
we not only asked but gave reasons why.

When beta 2 started and nothing that we asked for had changed we got a touch miffed, so we started asking louder, we were then told that the trait trees were here to stay regardless of what we said, that the out of spec penalty was here to stay regardless of what we said, that not being able to swap in combat was staying regardless of what we said, we were told to leave feedback in the class forums though, but we wanted to address the problems with the trait tree system as a whole and not to fluff up what was in them. They released a class survey, they never once asked us our opinions on the trait tree system.

We were told by Sapience we were a vocal minority so why would he listen to us, so 1 guy counted up all posts in the biggest thread on the trait tree subject and found that 75% of the posters had issues with the trees, we were then told that what a small sample size, so he counted up all the posts from ALL the beta threads and guess what same again 75%, then we were told his method of collecting data was flawed, so somebody else ran polls every build and hey guess what 75% of posters again expressed dissatisfaction.

It didnt matter one bit how we asked or how we put our points across, we were never going to be listened to thats why people started to rage quit and get angry.

There wasnt and still isnt even an official feedback forum for the biggest change to this game in years, doesnt that tell you that they didnt want to hear our opinions of the trees as all?

There has never been any dialog between the devs and the beta testers regarding the trait tree system, not once have they expressed any interest in our ideas to make it better or in lots of people views even workable. Sure they have engaged in the class threads regarding where skills should go or what should be included, but no-one has ever asked us if we feel the out of points spec is too high, or if we have lost too many skills, the ONLY engagement we have had from anyone from turbine is from Sapience to tell us to give it up , it aint gonna change.

On the out of point spec, they did answer and said that they will be looking at that once it goes live. The reason they gave is because they want classes to feel different. As it is now, most classes have and or are becoming jacks of all trades. When you have every class with self heals and bubbles, what is the use for the healer. When Healers are so UBER they are starting to get into Warden God Mode what is the use for a proper tank. That is why these changes were made. Are all of them good, no. There are things I want. But I understand why I dont get them. The current setup we have now is so bloated and overbearing that were looking at what... Improves Improved skills? I mean honestly... changes had to be made. Some people like them, some don't and I get it.

N ow for the combat changes. Turbine again answered this and said because they felt you should choose before entering combat. Do I like it? Not entirely, but I feel as if it adds a bit of a challenge that was not there before, as most of the class changes do.

You asked for skills. The response was.. They are there.. but gated behind different trait lines. This is so each class is diverse and not a "Jack of all trades", again, I will point to the current system and ask if that was kept, how soon would Wardens be healing a fellowship (Oh wait.. they have a fellowship heal) and Mini's and RK's tanking (Oh wait... they are staring to get crit defense)

When Beta 2 was launched... a lot of things people asked for was not changed.. Mainly because they fixed some bugs, changed the questline a bit, added NPC's ect. that were not there. The trait changes really started rolling with Beta 4 and 5, because the dev's needed that time to make those adjustments. Unfortunately, a lot of those who were extremely upset, had very little patience and decided to pack up, and leave.

So, now you mention you counted up all the post and got 75% negative response, I will kindly reply with a simple question. Do you know how many actual players were in each round of beta? Since Turbine has not released that information, any poll made by the players is skewed. Sadly. Also if you look at the poll threads, you will see that people whom Liked the changes voted in 1 only, while those who did not, made sure they posted in each one. Maybe those who like the changes were in game finding bugs and trying to make the whole experience of Helms Deep better. I know I was.

As far as an official feedback forum. You must have missed a seperate forum for each class. They were there. Many people posted in them. Many did not. But they were there.

You than go on that there was no communication between the players and Turbine. Yes some class threads did not have a blue name present. I will agree. But I will also let you know that they rarely ever post on the forums. That is what Sapience is there for. The devs that did post were kind enough to explain things and have an open dialouge. Oh and don;t forget there were also QA sessions with developers during the beta events. The logs of those were posted as well. So yes, there was communication. Oh and I would love to see the quote from Sapience saying "Give it up it aint gonna change" cause I will pay you 100 gold in game if you can provide it. What Sapience did say is that the trees are here to stay. OFFER FEEDBACK IN THE CLASS THREADS. Now if you did that and still feel shunned I am sorry. But a lot of changes were made based on that feedback and I think a few more are probably coming.

You mean those people who ridiculed others with quotes like: "New trait trees are coming, leave if you don't like it LOLOLOL" or "Can I have your stuff if you quit?"
How very interesting... Now that the NDA has been lifted the 'majority supporting the changes' everyone was talking about is now gone.

And I am sure there we absolutely NO personal attacks on anyone from the players who did not like the trees. I am also sure that a lot of the players I know in beta, are not posting in this and other threads because of how they were treated on the forums. One, even left beta all together because of a personal attack.

[Lohi]

Given that this is END GAME content I should highly hope it is possible to fail it.

But you can fail to get the rewards. Look it at like tier 2 challenges. If the challenge fails, there are a lot of intolerant leaders out there who will demand everyone leave and restart, rather than move ahead and get less that the top rewards. Ie, even though the raid did NOT fail the group will consider it to be failed. So treat big battles the same, if you only get lousy medals (no gold/platinum) then consider it to be failed. Especially with once a day cooldowns I suspect that a lot of group leaders are not going to be tolerant of slacking.

[Gagmuk]

This is patently false. Why are you lying?



Everyone is free to take my word for it. I speak the truth, unfettered by... well, anything.

ROFLMAO, now this is funny... Folks, Helms Deep is definitely playable. yes, their are changes, some better than other. Does that make any class unplayable? NO. I would say that their is a lot of animosity towards the change because players do not want or like change. So to try to get it put back the way they like it player will post, flame, troll do anything they can to give something a bad rep.

Are the players going to have to reset their Hot keys? yes
Are the players going to have to develop new play styles? yes
will these changes mess up the macro's players have set up? most definitely.

bottom line, the classes are all still playable, the creeps are still playable, the quests are completable, the zones are explorable, the crafting is chugging along and the big battles will be there as well. dont take my word for it or any of the negative posts word for. form your own opinion, watch the videos! visit a friend who has Helms Deep!