Official Discussion: Helm's Deep NDA Drop.

[Thurinor_EU]

Here is the bottom line for anyone still reading this.

LOTRO is a 6 year old MMO. Many many loyal players have been here for the 6 years. We have gotten used to how our characters play. When HD goes live this is what you will find :

Your character WILL have less skills available than they do now no matter how you spend your points
The variation in builds you can achieve right now has been cut to cookie cutter levels
You will have to re-learn how to play your class. This applies in varying degree's to all classes

This is one hell of a gamble Turbine have taken with an ageing game.

Turbine have simplified the game by removing your options and giving you less choice. Removing options, placing them behind gates and restricting the decisions you are able to make as a player can only be described as simplification. Less skills available = simplified gameplay. Implementing cookie cutter builds is all well and good if you have a healthy MMO, with loads of vibrant gameplay requiring the traditional trinity. However these builds are introduced into a game that Turbine have spent the last 3-4 years creating small group content where the trinity is not needed. This makes this decision even more mind blowingly stupefying.

So they have upset long standing customers who will login to empty skill bars and a toon they don't recognise, who they will have to re-learn how to play after 6 years of trying, whilst at the same time seemingly rendering design decisions and scaling content that were previously made obsolete.

It is an incredible gamble.

Skill tree's are not bad. How these have been implemented is an unfortunate design decision. The manner in which the beta community were communicated to, people who are in fact paying customers, was in my opinion shocking and was indeed a large factor in my final decision.

Get into beta and try the changes for yourself before giving Turbine any money. This is that large a change you owe it to yourself to make your own mind up.

After being here from the very start, purchasing every expansion, purchasing TP my journey in Middle Earth has come to an end.

This is not a rage quit, it is a sad quit.

[Widoch]

But what you are completely ignoring is that while the total number of skills may well be the same we can no longer access them all, there are large numbers gated behind inaccessible trees, spending points in one place instantly locks a skill elsewhere.

I was counting those, if you don't take trees into consideration at all, hunter have more skills now than before in total. Yes, it does depend on how you trick out your tree, but in a maxed out tree with a capstone, I think right now the worse off you'll be is down 1 skill and in other trees up a couple skills.

The later BETA builds moved skills around a lot increasing the number of auto bestowed skills vs traits.

Again, I'm not saying the skills are better or worse, just numerically speaking. I can't really say if the new set of skills is better or worse than the old set. We'll know when BETA ends I guess.

[Atheling]

But it's currently not the class we started with either, and the Isengard changes drastically upended the feel of it. Harmony never really worked or found a niche and seemed to exist only because they needed 3 stances (sort of worked ok in skirmish raids though). So upending it again will probably feel familiar I guess.

I also remember in Moria how many minstrels from beta predicted doom, and many put theirs on hold until the first patch (I had lots of alts so I put mine on hold).

Very true Lohi. And I remember being exceptionally concerned about not being able to mainheal raids in yellow with the Orion changes before learning to love using harmony. I think the point being made in the paragraph from which you've picked out that sentence though is that the minstrel is in a rough state of development as of now and that these changes have stripped the minstrel down and then looked to build it from ground up. We are going to be looking at fixes to this continuing after release, that's by official confirmation now. So, doom and gloom, yeah take your point, but really the class isn't fully up to speed for launch day and it's been slow going over the past 10 weeks of beta to see changes and bug fixes being implemented. If I tell you that as part of the changes one of the skills deemed essential to minstrels and placed fairly high into yellow line was 'call to the fellowship' it may give you some insight into where beta minstrels are coming from. And there are some concerns around the strength of blue line healing being just a tad excessive, although the concerns around dps output are now scheduled to be addressed within beta.

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

Was any player feedback heeded? By way of "Do not do this" and "Change that" rather than listening solely to "This works"?

I don't care if beta meant people had a say, I'm concerned with the bit that the input had an effect.

Not bug testing. Testing for bugs you can do on your own. I'm interested in if anything changed at all during the beta, other than bugfixes.

Off the top of my head, things that were changed/added, just on the captain and guardian (my main classes) which were taken directly from comments of beta testers:
1) Re-addition of pressing attack
2) Modification of tactics buffs
3) Banner skill animations and functionality
4) Battle shout range and cd
5) Herald buffs modified
6) Changing functionality of hammer-down
7) Improved icons for bleeds and fortification buffs
8) Re-introduction of shield taunt
9) Fray the edge becomes forced aggro
10) Vexing blow re-introduced
11) Scaling down of guardian heals
12) Retaining shield-swipe, bash and shield blow even in red spec (when it had been proposed to remove them entirely)
13) Reducing cooldown of force opening
14) A personal one (that I alone was asking for) - Allowing the Moors banner to retain its functionality with heralds

I also know for a fact that with hunters, barbed arrow and swift bow were to be taken out of general skills and divided between blue and red specs, however thanks to beta players, this was retained. And I'm sure you'll find the same with many other classes. Beta testers were listened to, and while I don't think any of us believe that the changes are perfect, or don't miss a skill or two that we used to have, we certainly have had a positive effect, and towards the end, certainly with the regards to what Rock and Verizal (the cappy and guard devs), there were very few things which the entirety of the forums had been pro or anti (for instance, reintroducing pressing attack for cappies, and the reintroduction of shield blow in all specs for guards) that they did not change. While there were some people who will have felt their ideas were not listened to (many of my suggestions were not implemented), often you would find players on both sides of the coin, and as such, the devs had difficult decisions to make, as to which side of the beta testers to go with, and it would have been impossible to continue to satisfy everyone.

The only thing that remains an issue for me, after taking part in the past 5 betas, is threat, as I'm not sure AoE tanking capabilities for guardians will have been retained, nor do I like the 'increased dps to maintain aggro' approach, however, as most examples of testing this in beta are rather contrived, we will need to wait and see how this pans out when the expansion goes live, and I'm sure Verizal and other appropriate devs will look into fixing these things if necessary.

[Rainothon]

I have been in HD beta from Beta 1 to Beta 5.

One thing I have witnessed is that LOTRO Beta is not just for bugfixing and show. I've limited myself to closely following the champion class trait trees, out of personal interest and time constraints. And that trait tree went through a series of changes, adjustments and finetuning by Jinjaah, based on the champions constructive feedback. The champion class trait tree from Beta 1 and Beta 5 are very much different, yet attain the same vision behind it. Kudoos to Jinjaah and the champion community!

Though I realize this offers little comfort to those who consider not going further with these changes, I want to say that HD beta showed a huge effort by the devs to incorporate our feedback. They really do care about their players. But I have to admit I don't always see that care expressed as regret towards your announced departures. That doesn't mean Turbine doesn't care, I think Turbine cares and I have this quote to show for it: "They (Turbine devs) know that there's a part of the playerbase that's fearful, and in all honesty, the devs have had a few sleepless nights over the changes too." http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/10/16/a-foundation-for-future-growth-examining-lotros-class-restruct/"](source)

[Grimdi]

Was any player feedback heeded? By way of "Do not do this" and "Change that" rather than listening solely to "This works"?

I don't care if beta meant people had a say, I'm concerned with the bit that the input had an effect.

When it comes to changing specific skills or reordering in the trees, yes (at least for some classes). When it comes to generic changes, no. It felt as if devs could only drag+drop and edit the individual skill icons (and effects of course) in the tree, but changing the overall mechanic in any way wasn't on the table at all.

[Rainothon]

One big thing for people to be aware of -- that caused a lot of 'discussion' -- is the fact that, when building out your class skill trees, skills in your specialization cost 1 point each, and skills in the other two trees cost 2 points each. This mechanic is what really limits your ability to create hybrid builds -- not to say that it can't be done, but it will definitely come at a cost of some of the skills you are used to having. This is what is meant by "tough decisions."
.

During the Beta I have proposed a 4th specialization for every class: the "Jack of all Trades".

Becoming a "Jack of all Trades" would mean you don't get any of the specialization bonusses, and are unable to choose any specialization capstone trait.

However you are able to build up your trait tree at 1 point cost per trait in any tree.

Give the new trees a spin. See if you'd still need a "Jack of all Trades" as I suggested. And if so, rallye support. It's not going to make it into HD Live, but just as MC had a 2.0, so may the trait trees.

[Jeffor]

What choices? What different playstyle?

Traiting outside the trees and trying to go hybrid (and get at least a tiny bit of diversity back) costs twice as many points and considering how few points my characters had even at 85 we're caught in the tree we picked.

Certainly not true with guardians. Every build I tried I specifically made sure I had as many points leftover as possible to put in other trees. Not one of my builds filled out a tree and they were all fun and sometimes very powerful. In fact, without the penalty guards would be unstoppable. There's still plenty if diversity.

[Jeffor]

In BB, your class skills are really not used at all, sorry.

Yes they are. What a silly comment.

[Jeffor]

People who play a 'Hybrid' class will be in for a shock. You can play This way OR That way - pretty much doing This AND That has been done away with. If STrait Tree points are changed then it would be easier to do....as it stands now all classes are locked into one of three cookie-cutter builds.

This is wrong. As I pointed out earlier guardians have good hybrid options. That being said, three builds would be better than most classes have on live so there you go.

[Andthelion]

Yes they are. What a silly comment.

your dps ones are thats true, but you dont need heals, tanking or cc

[Macroscian]

Off the top of my head, things that were changed/added, just on the captain and guardian (my main classes) which were taken directly from comments of beta testers:
1) Re-addition of pressing attack
2) Modification of tactics buffs
3) Banner skill animations and functionality
4) Battle shout range and cd
5) Herald buffs modified
6) Changing functionality of hammer-down
7) Improved icons for bleeds and fortification buffs
8) Re-introduction of shield taunt
9) Fray the edge becomes forced aggro
10) Vexing blow re-introduced
11) Scaling down of guardian heals
12) Retaining shield-swipe, bash and shield blow even in red spec (when it had been proposed to remove them entirely)
13) Reducing cooldown of force opening
14) A personal one (that I alone was asking for) - Allowing the Moors banner to retain its functionality with heralds

I also know for a fact that with hunters, barbed arrow and swift bow were to be taken out of general skills and divided between blue and red specs, however thanks to beta players, this was retained. And I'm sure you'll find the same with many other classes. Beta testers were listened to, and while I don't think any of us believe that the changes are perfect, or don't miss a skill or two that we used to have, we certainly have had a positive effect, and towards the end, certainly with the regards to what Rock and Verizal (the cappy and guard devs), there were very few things which the entirety of the forums had been pro or anti (for instance, reintroducing pressing attack for cappies, and the reintroduction of shield blow in all specs for guards) that they did not change. While there were some people who will have felt their ideas were not listened to (many of my suggestions were not implemented), often you would find players on both sides of the coin, and as such, the devs had difficult decisions to make, as to which side of the beta testers to go with, and it would have been impossible to continue to satisfy everyone.

The only thing that remains an issue for me, after taking part in the past 5 betas, is threat, as I'm not sure AoE tanking capabilities for guardians will have been retained, nor do I like the 'increased dps to maintain aggro' approach, however, as most examples of testing this in beta are rather contrived, we will need to wait and see how this pans out when the expansion goes live, and I'm sure Verizal and other appropriate devs will look into fixing these things if necessary.

I have been in HD beta from Beta 1 to Beta 5.

One thing I have witnessed is that LOTRO Beta is not just for bugfixing and show. I've limited myself to closely following the champion class trait trees, out of personal interest and time constraints. And that trait tree went through a series of changes, adjustments and finetuning by Jinjaah, based on the champions constructive feedback. The champion class trait tree from Beta 1 and Beta 5 are very much different, yet attain the same vision behind it. Kudoos to Jinjaah and the champion community!

Though I realize this offers little comfort to those who consider not going further with these changes, I want to say that HD beta showed a huge effort by the devs to incorporate our feedback. They really do care about their players. But I have to admit I don't always see that care expressed as regret towards your announced departures. That doesn't mean Turbine doesn't care, I think Turbine cares and I have this quote to show for it: "They (Turbine devs) know that there's a part of the playerbase that's fearful, and in all honesty, the devs have had a few sleepless nights over the changes too." http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/10/16/a-foundation-for-future-growth-examining-lotros-class-restruct/"](source)

When it comes to changing specific skills or reordering in the trees, yes (at least for some classes). When it comes to generic changes, no. It felt as if devs could only drag+drop and edit the individual skill icons (and effects of course) in the tree, but changing the overall mechanic in any way wasn't on the table at all.

So I guess the feeling of being listened to varied a lot from betatester to betatester.

Main reason I ask is removal of Agile Rejoinder, which was a nice skill when it had a low chance to give a bubble and right now is a super awesome parry response skill which gives a tiiiny HoT which often means the difference between running into four regular non-signature mobs (on-level or a little highter) and carefully plan 30 seconds or just shoot/aoe/stun/kill/parry/agile rejoinder/potion/aoe/kill/kill and see some action instead of hanging around for ages on just trash kills. Fun and a sense of accomplishment. To cite the dunland stun threads: it is not more fun because you take twice as long to kill something.

Perhaps I worry too much and this update for hunter is not about kiting and running away. I just find it hard to imagine that agile rejoinder removal was not subject of heated discussion in beta, enough to not remove it...

I'm happy that champ and cappy got some proposed changes reversed. These classes both lost agility requirement and have supposedly been better to play since.

Interesting about barb/swift...I have no doubt that the dev never saw a hunter levels 1-19 at all but removing them as basic skills takes the prize haha. It's like What? Everyone crafts to 38 anyway!

[Calta]

The uncontested loser is the minstrel. (Because this is the class I've spent the most testing time on, and this is the class that looks downright atrocious, I'll give you guys the most input here.) This class hit beta in a disaster state. Seriously... one of those little pecking desktop contraptions that you start and then it pecks could've done a better job than where this class started... or perhaps a monkey on crack jumping up and down on the keyboard (and this is me being incredibly nice and tame about it). Sadly, very little with this class has changed since then. Despite nearly unanimous negative feedback, this class has received no design changes from day one onward (just minor tweaks here and there... for perspective, it's like having a dilapidated house with a crumbling foundation that's about to collapse and saying you're going to make sure the portrait above the mantel is securely fastened). Rather than leaving a null stance (in addition to War-Speech and Harmony), the old names that Orion created for the 3 stances have been dug out yet again (Resonance, Dissonance, and Melody), creating the 3rd toggleable stance. Just like when Orion tried to make the changes ages ago the feedback has been overwhelmingly negative.

The changes are implemented in an incredibly confusing manner, and even the class dev seems confused by the stance purposes and trait-line-alignment... the stance bonuses and skill alterations are jumbled around and not linked properly with the proper stance. I'm not even going to pretend to try to explain things as they are right now, because it's still awful. To Orion's credit he listened to the negative feedback ages ago and dropped the changes (leaving two toggleable stances and a "null" stance, reverting back to the name War-Speech that we'd always known, as we see it now on live).

Unfortunately, no feedback whatsoever has been accepted this time around. In fact, a blatant disregard for feedback on this class has been the hallmark of this beta (it's really sad that with all the positive stuff going on in this xpack and all the many things I've enjoyed, the longest-lasting memory I'll have from my many months of beta will be the "shut up and accept my authority" mentality surrounding this class).

Paragraphing mine.

We are acknowldeged as broken: even according to official feedback (4 sentences) apparently minstrels will be 'fixed' more in 12.1 (but then that was supposed to happen in beta 4). But we don't have any idea how. So when people say how great the feedback process was, yeah some classes got a lot from some developers. Not minstrels from Devilled Egg though. No vision. No goals. No acknowledgment of fundamental issues and bugs; we've had 2 single paragraphs responses from egg in 3 months on our offical class forum. No diaries like from Orion.

I won't be playing my minstrel through the new content -it would spoil the good stuff-landscape and story. I won't be buying HD until i've levelled a class I can bare to play. Then it will be for points.

try before you buy.

[Andthelion]

This is wrong. As I pointed out earlier guardians have good hybrid options. That being said, three builds would be better than most classes have on live so there you go.

On live I had plenty of builds on my champ

Mostly red line for most raids.(5R 2Y)

Mostly Yellow for things such as flight and sword halls and library. (5Y , 2R)

Full blue for tanking

And then a mix for soloing stuff, this could literally be anything depending on what I was doing.

For example when I was trying to solo the big 2 Limlight trolls on level at 75 I started off 5B,2R for other things that needed a bit more dps I would swap a blue for a red, or if I needed to hit more things put in a yellow.

Fact is on live I can literally build anything I had access to ALL my traits and I could pick and choose which ones I wanted for any given situation, I cant do that now, If I want a trait that is 3/4 of the way down a tree I have to spec 3/4 of the way down that tree.Which instantly means I can longer access traits in other trees.

If I want to go mainly Red Line but desire a trait thats near the bottom of the yellow or blue tree , tough I cant have it, I can on live.

If I want a trait near the bottom of the blue tree I have to spend points accumulating traits I may not want just to get the trait I do and in doing so lock out all the other traits.

On live I had endless options in how to build, On beta I am restricted every step of the way, everything I choose to put into a build gates something else.

To try and make out we now have more options is just false, we dont , sure it may be equal when stood in a crafting hall somewhere, with all my points to play with, but for every point I spend I lose another option.

[Jeffor]

the trouble with three branches and crosstraiting heavily punished, it all boils down to more or less only three valid options, all other combinations a severe compromise, resulting in a character not good at anything. there is nothing like the former flexibility in building your char left..

Again, how can you say that your character is good at nothing? I just didn't see that nor do I see a glaring lose if flexibility in my guard. I can basically build exactly the way I did before. Now, to be fair, I will admit that these types of choices might come more naturally to guards. We are used to having skills that are greyed out and/or unused depending on your trait-set so maybe that's why I just didn't see this all as a major upheaval. Still, to say that you aren't good at anything or that there is no flexibility at all is a serious misnomer in my opinion. All classes are different of course; however, I am not going to pretend like Turbine has never nerfed a class in the sake of balance. In fact, this happens with every expansion whether there are new trait tress or not. I suspect that a lot of the angst is due to this and not the trait trees in general. I can understand that but there is a good chance that your class might have been toned down even without the trees.

I suggest that you give it a try for yourself if you are skeptical. I admit that I am pretty open to change. It's one of the things I love about MMOs and, to be honest, after playing for so long with the changes I forget about the trait trees altogether. I was simply playing my old hobbit guardian in a cool new area of Middle-earth and having fun.

[Jeffor]

On live I had plenty of builds on my champ

Mostly red line for most raids.(5R 2Y)

Mostly Yellow for things such as flight and sword halls and library. (5Y , 2R)

Full blue for tanking

And then a mix for soloing stuff, this could literally be anything depending on what I was doing.

For example when I was trying to solo the big 2 Limlight trolls on level at 75 I started off 5B,2R for other things that needed a bit more dps I would swap a blue for a red, or if I needed to hit more things put in a yellow.

Fact is on live I can literally build anything I had access to ALL my traits and I could pick and choose which ones I wanted for any given situation, I cant do that now, If I want a trait that is 3/4 of the way down a tree I have to spec 3/4 of the way down that tree.Which instantly means I can longer access traits in other trees.

If I want to go mainly Red Line but desire a trait thats near the bottom of the yellow or blue tree , tough I cant have it, I can on live.

If I want a trait near the bottom of the blue tree I have to spend points accumulating traits I may not want just to get the trait I do and in doing so lock out all the other traits.

On live I had endless options in how to build, On beta I am restricted every step of the way, everything I choose to put into a build gates something else.

To try and make out we now have more options is just false, we dont , sure it may be equal when stood in a crafting hall somewhere, with all my points to play with, but for every point I spend I lose another option.

Well maybe champ needed to be toned down then. Not easy to hear but it's happened in the past (and without trait trees).

[Jeffor]

your dps ones are thats true, but you dont need heals, tanking or cc

Yes the mobs strict paths that they follow but other instances and raids have had similar mechanics and I find it hard to believe that these spaces will never require these roles. Has it been specifically stated that group EB will never use heals? I don't remember that.

[furtim]

Man, there's a low bar for shilling when "don't take my word for it, look for yourself" is considered a suspiciously glowing review.

[Darlgon]

This is wrong. As I pointed out earlier guardians have good hybrid options. That being said, three builds would be better than most classes have on live so there you go.

Thanks for a good laugh. The poster said "class" not build. Guardians are not a hybrid class, if you are that lost. They are as pure a tank as you can get in the holy trinity of Tank (Gaurd)/Healer (Mini)/DPS (Champ/Hunter). As other posters have already pointed out, the GAME mechanic have forced gaurds into thinking they need to heal or dps. A warden would be a closer example of a hybrid, as, with the current vision, as you need heals to off-set the lack of mitigations of heavy armor.

[kedarid]

I don't know someone has mentioned this but they want to add in the further update crafting instances and craftable enhancements to hunter traps.

[Andthelion]

Yes the mobs strict paths that they follow but other instances and raids have had similar mechanics and I find it hard to believe that these spaces will never require these roles. Has it been specifically stated that group EB will never use heals? I don't remember that.

doesnt matter what is coming this is what we have for the next year, if you thinking end game is about only dpsing aimlessly until they release another expansion, then great for you, personally I prefer a bit of variety in my game time, as do all the minnies,tanks and LMs out there.

They have spent the best part of a year developing this and they werent able to include tanking , heals and cc in these? really?

This whole expansion seems half done to me,

Give it a year and who knows maybe big battles will appeal to all the classes and they will be able to use their skills in them
Give it a year or two and these tress will start to make sense and become viable alternatives to what we have now.

Really? thats what they have spent all their time and resources doing this year,what all this upheavel has been for, developing an expansion that requires a second one a year from now to actually be any good?

[Calta]

This is actually very much what we have heard from the majority of players. I'll also mention that a lot of the final form of the classes and which skills are in which tree and the skills that found their way into the general pool are there in no small part to player feedback. There have been literally hundreds upon hundreds of changes made to the trees and their organization. Some literally ripped right from player feedback threads and put in game.

Could you please list ten positive changes from/for minstrels and 5 examples of consensus fedback being implemented. Or point to more than 2 pieces of short general feedback from our dev? or have i been in the wrong class beta threads since beta 1.....

Actually i guess you can't because the nda specifically prevent us and you, from showing to people all the hard work we put in tryinhg to fix this mess. All the great ideas. All the data. All the bug reports.

Specifics are more important to me than sweeping generalities about 'listening'. I say it again. some devs did-those classes are playable . some haven't and won't-guess which by the reactions

Oh and while i'm ranting IS THERE ANY REASON FOR EVERY CLASS GUIDE I'VE SEEN SO FAR HAVING A MALE CHARACTER IMAGE?- Your handpicked team sems to think female characters don't exist in this game. Shame on you Sapience. That should never have got by you!!

[monk_tbd]

Well maybe champ needed to be toned down then. Not easy to hear but it's happened in the past (and without trait trees).

I am not very surprised to hear that hunters and guardians seem to be best of right now with the changes. They always seemed the most easiest and more one dimensional classes to me which fits best with trait/skill trees.

So I am not sure that praising the great hybrid options for guardians with the new setup as a plus for the revamp ("hybrids are still possible!") while classes that already had great hybrid setups seemed to have lost theirs ("hybrids were too powerful!").

I will see when it goes live and then judge myself.

Classes I fear most for are warden, runekeeper, loremaster and burglar.
I am surprised that the mini seems to be botched a bit.

My mains being mini, warden and runekeeper I guess I will be able to judge them all by myself once it goes live.

[Wanderv]

your dps ones are thats true, but you dont need heals, tanking or cc

I healed (and saved) soldiers with my minstrel. I CC'd many mobs in side-quests and completed them thanks to it, with my mid-level hunter.

What i'm doing wrong?

[Wanderv]

I do not understand this ragestorm. Obviously people didn't play (or forgot) at beloved good ole' days of SoA, which so many people love. How many times classes were nerfed? My hunter at least twice. How many skills we had? Less than in HD beta.