Official Discussion: Helm's Deep NDA Drop.

[Andthelion]

Here's another metaphor that got more and more absurd as it was stretched further. These points you make might be appropriate if the metaphor was a clear parallel to the situation in LotRO, but it's not. The reality is, we have a toolbox with appropriate tools, it's just that some people wish we had all the tools all the time. There is, in fact, never a scenario in-game where we have not got a tool that is appropriate to the task. There is never a situation in game where we have a tool that is as out of place for what we're presented with as a blowtorch at an ice rink. I wish I had more to add to this but we're getting so hypothetical now that it's become a meaningless discussion. If you were talking directly about actual situations regarding skills in-game, I would be more engaged in this discussion.

ok lets talk skills in game then,

I am a champ traited for dps in a raid , all is going well, until the tank crashes , no warning just stops tanking, the big nasty troll and his adds make for the minnie (or me) explain what tools I have to , grab aggro of that troll, stay alive and keep the raid going till the tank gets back?

In game scenario 2

I am on my rk again dpsing quite happily, this time our healer has a lapse in concentration and doesnt notice the big red square he is stood in and dies, explain what tools I have to step in keep the raid alive long enough until the minnie can be rezzed, healed back to full, rebuffed and got his bearings back enough to take back over and allow me to go back dpsing again?


So to clarify your point, there USED to be no situation in game where we didnt have the correct tool in the bag, now after these changes the game is FULL of situations where we wont have the correct tool in the bag.

[Palentian]

When making analogies, it's easy to let the analogy get away from you. Analogies are only useful if they reflect the thing being analogised. Since we're talking about a game, a game analogy is going to be closer than a tool analogy.

When people ask to be able to do everything, it just reminds me of that Calvinballish game of oneupsmanship that kids play with each other. "I shot you!" "I had a bulletproof vest!" "Doesn't matter, the gun I shot you with was a bazooka!" "My bulletproof vest blocks explosions, though."

Is it fun? Of course! If it wasn't, kids wouldn't play it. But, at some point, they get tired of it and go play football or something instead.

LMAO!! I have to say, sometimes I read these forums and feel like I'm in 3rd grade again.

[frickinmuck]

If anyone remembers Siege of Mirkwood's launch, they will recall how vocally disappointed many people were by the lack of progression after Moria. We wanted new traits, new trait slots, new skills, and just a general sense of improving over what we had before. While part of the problem was the 5 level gap and the poor gear on offer, a lot of it had to do with the fact that our classes had been virtually backed into a corner, with nowhere else to go.

Consider what our classes got with Siege of Mirkwood. We only get a level 62 skill each at launch, and these were in many cases very underwhelming (consider, for example, the Captain level 62 improvement: Fighting Withdrawal, which just removes the -30% damage penalty of the rarely used Withdrawal). In fact, Hunter and Warden did not get any new combat skills at all, receiving just a port to Mirk-eaves.

Fast forward to the next update three or so months later, when we finally got our level 64 skills (after much complaining), and again these are fairly unimpressive, mostly minor improvements to existing skills, like a small power restore.

It is not that players don't want upgraded skills, or didn't appreciate the token upgrades they got. It's that the upgrades are and feel unimpressive, and thus our characters are essentially set in stone at a much earlier level, only increasing in potency by a tiny magnitude over time.

Add to this the fact that many skills have already received upgrades by now, and some started to receive upgrades to the upgrades (Light of Elendil, for example), and we see that it was a very inelegant system that was simply unsustainable.

I certainly was not the only one commenting on the lack of progression after Moria.

-Bel

This is exactly my take on things as well. I have been lamenting the lack of meaningful progression for ages. I think the unsustainability of the system is obvious when you take a closer look at our character class development since level 50-60. Now, I think a lot of people are questioning that skill trees are the best solution to that, and I think that's impossible to say. I'm inclined to say that with the passionately expressed desire of many to be able to hybridize more and do more with their characters in off-trees, it seems Turbine has created a scenario that will give the classes somewhere to go from here. Whether people are able to see it right now or not, I think this approach will prove to be a much, much more manageable and sustainable one than the one we had. So in that sense it's a success.

[SNy-lotrolinux-EU]

If a Minstrel can access all his/her buffs while in the healing line, then why would he/she try out Protector of Song at all?

While I have a minstrel at cap, I haven't really played it much, and I haven't participated in beta either. That said, even I am aware that there's only so much fun in spamming heals (addressing which, as you might be aware, had been one of the primary design goals of earlier minstrel revamps, so they would get away from spamming bolster courage).

I would wager a guess that this would a prime reason people appear a bit irritated that those tales, buffs, damage skills et cetera, as you even acknowledge, are buried within other trees, reducing the blue minstrel to spamming heals.

SNy

[Atheling]

Yeah, I don't know how many items there will be available, but I imagine they will be adding more over time to maintain the appeal of Big Battles. I hope so, anyway. You can LOL at my hopeful naivete if you wish!

Hope so too If only because one of my toons must have a grudge against the RNG at all times

[Dworin]

Here's another metaphor that got more and more absurd as it was stretched further. These points you make might be appropriate if the metaphor was a clear parallel to the situation in LotRO, but it's not. The reality is, we have a toolbox with appropriate tools, it's just that some people wish we had all the tools all the time. There is, in fact, never a scenario in-game where we have not got a tool that is appropriate to the task. There is never a situation in game where we have a tool that is as out of place for what we're presented with as a blowtorch at an ice rink. I wish I had more to add to this but we're getting so hypothetical now that it's become a meaningless discussion. If you were talking directly about actual situations regarding skills in-game, I would be more engaged in this discussion.

It is directly parallel, using Apollo 13 again. The tool in that case was the power left to the astronauts aboard the craft. All the creative solutions they could come up with were for naught, without the power to implement the solutions. lotRo is the same. You say we have all the tools, but some of them will be gated and unreachable on the fly. If you are in combat and need to trap adds, but you are traited so that you do not have traps on your bar, all the created scenarios you can concoct will not trap a single foe. It'll be like Apollo13, with no power: solutions without the tools to implement them.

[frickinmuck]

To my knowledge there is no official global chat channel coming any time soon. Nor was one ever tested during the Helms Deep Beta. There was at some point prior to the announcement of Helms Deep a discussion about possibly making an official channel, but I dont know if anything else ever came of it.

I saw it mentioned more than once in Q/A's and interviews with gaming sites that there would be a global channel. Perhaps Sapience can clear this one up for us.

[Naraca]

I can only speculate on the reasons, because I can't read Sapience's mind, but I always assumed that the beta polls were only allowed to a) avoid the appearance of "squelching" negative opinions and b) as a "lightning rod" for the same, to give those who disliked the changes a place to express themselves without derailing other discussions.

Furtim's "B" answer is the most accurate.

Well, this helps to explain the many posts from beta testers in this thread noting that their feedback was ignored. It's pretty easy to ignore criticism if you funnel it all into one thread. Sounds like the kind of response which would lead a consistently polite poster to become this exasperated. And that's the kind of response I've seen all through this thread, as well.

Was Fredelas seriously banned for that post? Because whoever did that has serious ego issues.

[Kongas]

People can say what they want and spin all the analogies they want. Bottom line is - come Nov 18th people will be all judging for themselves whether they are having fun or not and then voting with their wallets. I'm not having fun so my vote is in. If people think that by some unlucky happenstance the few dozen malcontents in LOTRO all somehow got into beta then I suspect you, or more likely -Turbine accountants in the coming financial quarters - are going to be in for a surprise. But who knows. Nothing said here by any side will have any effect.

People know when they are having fun or not and if they are not, there's plenty of other companies happy to take their money.

[FittyBolger]

I'll say this. In general, polls are against the community guidelines. However, these player run polls were allowed to operate and run their course repeatedly over the multi-month beta process. Certainly someone felt they were generating some kind of useful feedback or they would not have been allowed to continue.

I recall someone saying that the reason polls are not allowed is because there's generally no way to make them quantifiable or useful. In this case, respondants stuck strictly to one post per, with their reply, making it very very easy to get quantifiable feedback.

My thoughts as well Crell.

It was my hope the polls could be used in a constructive manner especially given the forum anarchy that existed when I first posted.
Turbine left them up *bows* and, while they might feel hesitant to acknowledge this, I hope they did indeed consider this information of use.

Edit: I just read the reply by Sapience where "lightning rod" was the "most correct" of 2 options... Should have provided a greater range of options like the poll I say!
Disheartening personally... as was much of my BETA experience.

[Palentian]

Well, this helps to explain the many posts from beta testers in this thread noting that their feedback was ignored. It's pretty easy to ignore criticism if you funnel it all into one thread. Sounds like the kind of response which would lead a consistently polite poster to become this exasperated. And that's the kind of response I've seen all through this thread, as well.

Was Fredelas seriously banned for that post? Because whoever did that has serious ego issues.

Again, CONSTRUCTIVE feedback and criticism. There is a subtle difference that escapes many.

[frickinmuck]

Well, this helps to explain the many posts from beta testers in this thread noting that their feedback was ignored. It's pretty easy to ignore criticism if you funnel it all into one thread.

Except that didn't happen at all. In fact, the beta forums are filled with dozens of threads that are critical of the changes in general, and all the threads discussing more specific topics (such as class threads or threads discussing specific battles) were also full of criticism. There was definitely no limitation to people's ability to give critical feedback in beta. Much of the feedback was dominated with criticism.

[Frieja]

But they are not developing group content and have spent the past few years making the game solo-friendly. This is what I don't understand? Why are they giving us classes for grouping without developing grouping content? And isn't that going to hinder the entire game up to lvl 85 since it was all designed for solo classes?

That is a bit baffling, isn't it? I meant to reply to your original post on the subject early on in this thread, but forgot. That question has been on my mind as well: Why strip the classes down into specific roles if they're not creating group content? It's got to be for future projects. I think I recall a blue name say this class revamp is to lay the ground work for future development.

[ShireDweller]

Except that didn't happen at all. In fact, the beta forums are filled with dozens of threads that are critical of the changes in general, and all the threads discussing more specific topics (such as class threads or threads discussing specific battles) were also full of criticism. There was definitely no limitation to people's ability to give critical feedback in beta. Much of the feedback was dominated with criticism.

So maybe the poll wasn't as much of a lightning rod as it was thought to be?

[frickinmuck]

So maybe the poll wasn't as much of a lightning rod as it was thought to be?

Hard to say. I think they at least had the effect of giving people a means of trying to quantify their rage.

That is a bit baffling, isn't it? I meant to reply to your original post on the subject early on in this thread, but forgot. That question has been on my mind as well: Why strip the classes down into specific roles if they're not creating group content? It's got to be for future projects. I think I recall a blue name say this class revamp is to lay the ground work for future development.

I find these kinds of questions strange, frankly. I think grouping is always relevant in LotRO, and these changes definitely make it more relevant than before. There's still a ton of group content in the game. I might start asking those questions if they began removing that content, but right now those questions don't really make a lot of sense to me. We are in a MMO, we have group content, I've seen nothing that makes me doubt there will be more.

But yeah, they did say that future development is one of the many reasons why some of these changes were made.

[Drachenjager]

about time to warn the masses. This is no longer LOTRO. I picked this game because of the way it played . I preordered HD like a fool. I regret it. Playing it on beta makes me sick . I used to love the game so much i spent all day playing when i was off. NOW at least i will have time to fish and take photos again. Thanks Devs for forcing me to kick the habbit.

BUT since i was taught to always say something nice . The graphics are stunning. Game play on the other hand... trait trees have to go. Big Battles have to go. bring back skirms and raids . Give a tank something to do again .

[Namesse]

If anyone remembers Siege of Mirkwood's launch, they will recall how vocally disappointed many people were by the lack of progression after Moria. We wanted new traits, new trait slots, new skills, and just a general sense of improving over what we had before. While part of the problem was the 5 level gap and the poor gear on offer, a lot of it had to do with the fact that our classes had been virtually backed into a corner, with nowhere else to go.

Consider what our classes got with Siege of Mirkwood. We only get a level 62 skill each at launch, and these were in many cases very underwhelming (consider, for example, the Captain level 62 improvement: Fighting Withdrawal, which just removes the -30% damage penalty of the rarely used Withdrawal). In fact, Hunter and Warden did not get any new combat skills at all, receiving just a port to Mirk-eaves.

Fast forward to the next update three or so months later, when we finally got our level 64 skills (after much complaining), and again these are fairly unimpressive, mostly minor improvements to existing skills, like a small power restore.

It is not that players don't want upgraded skills, or didn't appreciate the token upgrades they got. It's that the upgrades are and feel unimpressive, and thus our characters are essentially set in stone at a much earlier level, only increasing in potency by a tiny magnitude over time.

Add to this the fact that many skills have already received upgrades by now, and some started to receive upgrades to the upgrades (Light of Elendil, for example), and we see that it was a very inelegant system that was simply unsustainable.

I certainly was not the only one commenting on the lack of progression after Moria.

-Bel

I know I'm going to feel the progression when I'm leveling and I'm finally able to add 73 mastery to my build - there's a lot of junk in the trees, not just skills.

[JeauxLOTR]

It was my hope the polls could be used in a constructive manner especially given the forum anarchy that existed when I first posted.
Turbine left them up *bows* and, while they might feel hesitant to acknowledge this, I hope they did indeed consider this information of use. .

I thought these Polls were actually some of the 'best behaved' threads in all of Beta. Posters mostly followed the rules and very few posts within each version were disqualified.

[rodarin]

People that think Beta means anything are completely jaded.

Betas these days are basically free looks at what they are going to put out, they might change a skin or two, maybe adjust some damage here or there, but 95% of stuff people see in a beta is what is going into the game.

People that actually think what they say as 'beta testers' is somehow going ot manipulate or even change the development path are seriously deluded.

[Stephen1981]

People that think Beta means anything are completely jaded.

Betas these days are basically free looks at what they are going to put out, they might change a skin or two, maybe adjust some damage here or there, but 95% of stuff people see in a beta is what is going into the game.

People that actually think what they say as 'beta testers' is somehow going ot manipulate or even change the development path are seriously deluded.

yea i get that but does not mean people not happy will not vote with their wallet

[frickinmuck]

People that think Beta means anything are completely jaded.

Betas these days are basically free looks at what they are going to put out, they might change a skin or two, maybe adjust some damage here or there, but 95% of stuff people see in a beta is what is going into the game.

People that actually think what they say as 'beta testers' is somehow going ot manipulate or even change the development path are seriously deluded.

Insofar as the general plan and framework is concerned, I totally agree. Once something hits beta, it's happening in that format whether you like it or not, and any attempt to try to change course is futile. However, any claim that beta is meaningless and that nothing changes, and that beta testers don't have an impact is completely untrue. I have been involved in LotRO betas, and I can say firsthand that a LOT of changes are made, a great many of which are directly driven by player feedback and suggestions. This was perhaps more true during the Helm's Deep beta than ever before. I realize some player classes had more challenges with this process than others, but the hunter you will see on live was hugely influenced by the beta testers.

[Aidus]

People that think Beta means anything are completely jaded.

Betas these days are basically free looks at what they are going to put out, they might change a skin or two, maybe adjust some damage here or there, but 95% of stuff people see in a beta is what is going into the game.

People that actually think what they say as 'beta testers' is somehow going ot manipulate or even change the development path are seriously deluded.

Completely untrue in this case. There were MANY changes in beta, not all the ones some people wants but there were meaningful serious changes.

[Belnavar]

I know I'm going to feel the progression when I'm leveling and I'm finally able to add 73 mastery to my build - there's a lot of junk in the trees, not just skills.

There are arguably some dud traits remaining, but I think most of them were changed throughout the course of the beta. Most ratings traits were converted to percentages, allowing us (I believe) to go over the cap. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't consider +5% damage, evade, critical defence, etc. as "junk." A handful of dud traits may remain, though not all of these need to be selected (you can, in many cases, pick a different trait in order to get to the next tier, or spend your points in another tree). I expect some of these will be changed or moved around in the coming months, and this is where player feedback is important (as it was in beta to get those rating traits converted to percentages).

-Bel

[Cefely]

That is a bit baffling, isn't it? I meant to reply to your original post on the subject early on in this thread, but forgot. That question has been on my mind as well: Why strip the classes down into specific roles if they're not creating group content? It's got to be for future projects. I think I recall a blue name say this class revamp is to lay the ground work for future development.

Maybe they are going to go back to developing lots of traditional raids & instances then? A lot of people would love that. If this is why, I wonder why they don't say so? Seems like it would be something they would want us to know, as it might do a lot to get the morale up again for the raiders, if there are any left. :P

It is just a total 180 from how they have been developing the game for years now, so I guess we'll have to wait & see.

[BangoTwinkletoes]

Completely untrue in this case. There were MANY changes in beta, not all the ones some people wants but there were meaningful serious changes.

There were indeed many changes that the beta testers worked hard to achieve. Though we cannot copy & paste from the beta forum, anyone who is serious about their class & how it will play should talk to those who closely involved in testing their class on beta to get an idea exactly what was presented in the first beta and the delta between that and what's in the latest (5.1).

I don't want to say that we owe some gratitude to the class testers & those who worked hard to get the changes accepted and implemented, but it's not far off.

Just need now to get the minstrel fixed.