Official Discussion: Helm's Deep NDA Drop.

[Lohi]

Points in tree's should be spent to better you're existing skills, add an extra bubble or hot on a heal, add some dot damage to an aoe, make a skill proc a buff useable by another skill, and so on and so forth.
Points spent should have more GAMEPLAY repercu

Yes, this would have been a better design goal. Ie no new skills get granted by the trees except for a capstone. Instead all the points are used similarly to traits we have now only more fine grained. They add extra effects to a skill or increase potency but nothing gets "unlocked". We wouldn't even need tier bonuses or specializations. It's kept as a tree to make sure the most potent abilities are not available from the start (same as now where you can't get all the traits from the start until you get to the right level and complete the deed). The trait tier bonuses feel wrong, as it's an extension of the same trait-set bonuses, where people choose traits they may not necessarily want only because of the lure of a set bonus.

Also decreasing number of points could have allowed using multiple trees without an artificial penalty, it just means you might not reach the cap stone or get the full increase in power of a trait. The penalty part of the new system just makes no sense to me, and the rationale that people might get too powerful is incorrect because they could just change the number of points given out. There's more than one way to solve that problem! I'd love if we could be like Shadows of Angmar and have a 4/2/2 or 3/3/2 style of build again.

Instead of getting rid of stances, it might have been interesting to make them a feature of all classes. But then that's wrong headed thinking I suspect when the approved plan is to require everyone to be a specialist. I'm completely baffled why Turbine has disliked generalists for such a long time.

[Lohi]

Well turbine said that the trait trees would allow them to add more varied skills later on,

This seems mixed up and counterproductive. It's like saying that I'm going to slow down on the freeway to well below the speed limit just so that I can feel the rush of accelleration again. If they're going to reduce skills and have a valid argument that there are too many skills, then it is very inconsistent to also say that they'll want to add more of them later. If too many skills today is a problem then why won't it be a problem tomorrow as well?

[Thorwyn99]

This seems mixed up and counterproductive. It's like saying that I'm going to slow down on the freeway to well below the speed limit just so that I can feel the rush of accelleration again. If they're going to reduce skills and have a valid argument that there are too many skills, then it is very inconsistent to also say that they'll want to add more of them later. If too many skills today is a problem then why won't it be a problem tomorrow as well?

From what i remember it was about scaling down skills so there can be more meaningful skills added later than just advanced version of something something, it's kinda what I'm used to from other tree based games.

I just checked the dev diary again though and i can't find it in there, so maybe I'm actually wrong.

[Sthrax]

From what i remember it was about scaling down skills so there can be more meaningful skills added later than just advanced version of something something, it's kinda what I'm used to from other tree based games.

I just checked the dev diary again though and i can't find it in there, so maybe I'm actually wrong.

It wasn't in a Dev diary, I think it was in one of the transcripts from an in game chat on Bullroarer. You aren't dreaming it

[Stephen1981]

well i guess this focus has gotten to much on trait trees no one has even mention u can only swap out weapons now in combat no longer can do armor,jewellery,pocket items, class slot items in combat

[Whart]

I'm forced to change my ways and adapt to the times when it comes to my job, finances, personal life, blah blah blah.

I come to the game to escape from all the adult stuff. I play the game for enjoyment. Being forced here to adapt to something I don't like breaks the enjoyment.

Many of us have been with this game for a LONG time, have hundreds of hours and probably hundreds of dollars invested into it, because we loved the setting, the game, LOTR, Tolkien, etc., and to see it being changed so dramatically in a way we don't like is going to rile us up.

I agreed the traits system needed changing, I never expected it to be something that took away things I've had for years, and then take the remaining things and divide them up into specializations, some of which I have no interest in other than I want my base skill back out of it. I came into the beta very excited and left with a bruised face after being slapped multiple times by this skill tree thing.

Thank you. I 'adapt to', 'cope with', 'deal with', 'get used to', and 'get over' things every day. That isn't what I generally think of when I'm choosing a leisure activity. If someone wants to entice me to invest in a hobby, telling me that it may not be ideal but I'll get used to it eventually isn't really the way to do it. There are far too many other options out there competing for my time and money. I take issue with the idea that anyone who doesn't like the trees or isn't interested in the defensive skirmish battles somehow can't face the concept of change. It's entirely possible that we can adapt to change just fine, and that we just aren't interested in the current offerings.

[JeauxLOTR]

One other problem with the trees is that they seem to have been done with a focus on end-game players. Lower level characters will be very limited in the number of skills they have.

[Lohi]

Going with your nuance then, I am surprised that skills changing in a game is something some people don't want to put up with to the point of working themselves up so much.

This is also something happening after a long list of changes that some people are not happy with. It is not necessarily the straw that broke the camel's back but only because this change is bigger than a straw, it's more like one more brick added to a heavy load.

I'm not opposed to F2P but some people greatly dislike it (despite nearly the entire industry moving this way). Some people hate the whole concept of a store. Some people are utterly furious at focus of attention being moved away from their favorite play style and towards a more mass market appeal. Some people have a grab bag of various gripes; itemization, pvp, lore breakage, lag, and so on. And finally the game is getting old and a lot of old friends have quite naturally moved on. This means many of these people are already looking for any excuse to leave, and many of these people are similarly looking for any excuse to stay.

This expansion is a lot like investors patiently waiting for the earnings report to come out so that they can decide to keep their stake or sell it off.

[Sigram]

Thank you. I 'adapt to', 'cope with', 'deal with', 'get used to', and 'get over' things every day. That isn't what I generally think of when I'm choosing a leisure activity. If someone wants to entice me to invest in a hobby, telling me that it may not be ideal but I'll get used to it eventually isn't really the way to do it. There are far too many other options out there competing for my time and money. I take issue with the idea that anyone who doesn't like the trees or isn't interested in the defensive skirmish battles somehow can't face the concept of change. It's entirely possible that we can adapt to change just fine, and that we just aren't interested in the current offerings.

That is it precisely. I could certainly adapt to it. I have no doubts I could. I'd rather not waste my leisure time doing so and spend it playing something I find enjoyable.

Edit: thinking on this, adapt isn't even the right word. Adapt should be changed to 'dealing with it'. These skill tree is so stupid easy there is nothing to adapt to. Learning to deal with it, or live with it is what I would have to do. Right now I am totally uninterested in doing so.

[Aidus]

One other problem with the trees is that they seem to have been done with a focus on end-game players. Lower level characters will be very limited in the number of skills they have.

Rerolled a hunter just to refresh my head about what that looked like, started on live with like 2 or 3 skills. Very much like it was on Beta.

[Sthrax]

Rerolled a hunter just to refresh my head about what that looked like, started on live with like 2 or 3 skills. Very much like it was on Beta.

Same with champ. The new system is very unfriendly to low and mid level characters, and I believe that if they think the new system will draw new players in, the leveling experience under the new system will quickly drive most of them away. Then again, maybe they want to push players to buy the "Gift of the Valar" store item so they can be insta-50 and avoid all the low level content and leveling grind.

[frickinmuck]

It wasn't in a Dev diary, I think it was in one of the transcripts from an in game chat on Bullroarer. You aren't dreaming it

It's from a dev diary on trait trees posted awhile back.

One other problem with the trees is that they seem to have been done with a focus on end-game players. Lower level characters will be very limited in the number of skills they have.

I didn't find that to be true at all. I did a lot of testing on lower level alts, and I rolled one from scratch during one of the builds as well, and I actually found my beta lower level characters to be at times more fun than on live at lower levels. Because of the way the trees are set up, there are some pretty potent, fun skills available on the trees during low level gameplay that previously weren't available until characters are at much higher level on live.

Don't forget, every class gets a set of general skills that are available to them regardless of traiting, so one doesn't need to have access deeper into the trees to get some good skills. If anything, it's the higher level characters that are going to feel the lack of some of their skills the most, because at those levels they're used to having packed skillbars.

[dietlbomb]

One nice thing about the skill reduction is they do have some breathing room now to add more skills later. It just won't be at the pace it was previously. This is a huge change and I'm sure they're focusing on getting the skills they've decided on in the right spot in the trees and balanced. No need to add new skills to the mix right now, it would do more harm than good.

This is true. There are lots of moving parts right now. We don't want any devs to lose a finger.

Well turbine said that the trait trees would allow them to add more varied skills later on, other people think it's a nice way to let you rebuy old skills with the next expansion.

I'll worry about it when the time comes, i know for sure though that spending a new trait point every 2 levels is about as much or as little exciting as getting another boring advanced skill of something something every 2 levels.
Thinking about it i tend to skip tons of levels between trainer visits starting at around level 50 because getting an advanced skill of a skill is just meh.

I agree that the previous system stopped being exciting. But the new system, which is supposed to make leveling more exciting, doesn't seem very exciting. Couldn't they have come up with something more interesting? If you're going to revamp skills and traits, either do something small with an easily predictable result*, or do something bold and exciting**. They picked the middle path: unoriginal and foreign. It's my opinion that they squandered an opportunity to do something original with the trait revamp.

Trust me, you want more points. In fact, the amount of points and the cost of off-tree traits is one of the biggest things people have been complaining about with the changes. So more points is definitely exciting. Not only do you get to unlock another skill or trait, you have more points to spend making new builds. The more points you have, the more control and flexibility you have with making new builds, so really in this new system it's highly desirable to earn more points.

I don't doubt that players will want the points. I just don't think that earning a point every two levels is my idea of an exciting growth curve. From levels 1 to 60 we got new skills almost every level (remember those passive skills? they weren't all that exciting, but they were something you could earn from leveling), and we were able to unlock specific class traits and legendary traits through various deeds and quests. Now it's just points. Get from level 31 to 33, earn a point. Collect a bunch of pages from goblins in the Misty Mountains and Angmar, earn a point. Make that final leap from level 93 to 95, earn a point. No distinction, no differentiation. Just more quantity. All our class development is reduced to a semi-fungible number. And this number gives me what? The ability to slot a capstone trait in one line and equip an additional skill I used to have available all the time?

This whole system is unstable! What are they going to do when we get more points in the next expansion? Let us be more hybrid again? Not likely! They'll just reshuffle everything. The idea that this system will become a basis for future growth is all an illusion. It will never work.

Help! There's a fly in my whisky! Oh no I drank it. Help!

Sorry. That got off the rails.




*Like maybe: 1. reorder when skills and trait slots are earned as you level, 2. decrease skill potency and increase trait potency, 3. add specializations but don't replace free-form traits with trees, 4. reduce the influence of legendary items on class specialization to make traiting more relatively potent.
**Like not copying the trait system from competing MMOs that I don't like!

[Radbug]

I've seen other posts like this. You do realize you haven't actually bought a product, right? You've only rented time on a service. Like Netflix, or Comcast (or which ever cable company you have).

That's wholly inaccurate.

If you just subscribe and spend your stipend on tat, then what you've posted holds true. As soon as you unsub you lose access to anything you you haven't bought, e.g quest packs, most skirmishes, freepside, VIP only areas like HoN and IotF.

Everybody has to buy expansions. You don't rent them as a VIP at all. If you spend your TP wisely on content you do indeed buy that content. You don't have to rent it anymore. For example, I have not rented (subbed) LotRO for a year but I still get to play what I've paid for - that is absolutely everything except the VIP skirmishes (don't like), Freepside (I have Creeps), Destiny Perks (I still have points but whatever), and Gold Viva Michel Delving presents (gag). I may have forgotten something else which doesn't matter.

[Silmelin]

well i guess this focus has gotten to much on trait trees no one has even mention u can only swap out weapons now in combat no longer can do armor,jewellery,pocket items, class slot items in combat

But what if you unequip your weapon and shield and forget about it? I do that all the time, and notice it as soon as I have entered combat and see that I have no sword

And what about all those times I have forgotten to switch from the fishing rod? For some reason it just isn't as effective to fight the watcher in the water with a fishing rod instead of a sword and shield...



I don't really mind it being impossible to switch from one equip to another during combat, but I think it should be possible to equip weapons if you aren't holding any at all.

Otherwise I'll run the risk of dying after every concert I go to on Landroval :P

[Gedachtnis]

Added the Quickbar Guide to the Trait Tree Guide This also includes my current workaround to make the memory function work.

[Behemoth4015]

I don't doubt that players will want the points. I just don't think that earning a point every two levels is my idea of an exciting growth curve. From levels 1 to 60 we got new skills almost every level (remember those passive skills? they weren't all that exciting, but they were something you could earn from leveling), and we were able to unlock specific class traits and legendary traits through various deeds and quests. Now it's just points. Get from level 31 to 33, earn a point. Collect a bunch of pages from goblins in the Misty Mountains and Angmar, earn a point. Make that final leap from level 93 to 95, earn a point. No distinction, no differentiation. Just more quantity. All our class development is reduced to a semi-fungible number. And this number gives me what? The ability to slot a capstone trait in one line and equip an additional skill I used to have available all the time?

I agree. Looking for pages to get Raging Blades on my Champ felt like a real goal. I was very excited to finally be able to Shing-Shing. Gaining one or two more points lacks the same sense of accomplishment. I would have rather seen more skills tied to specific quests, deeds, etc. I think this would have been great for immersion - my character learning/earning his abilities as he moved through the game.

[Atheling]

Added the Quickbar Guide to the Trait Tree Guide This also includes my current workaround to make the memory function work.

Really appreciate the effort you put into figuring this out, and even more so the additional work you've put into writing up that guide.

[Palentian]

That's wholly inaccurate.

If you just subscribe and spend your stipend on tat, then what you've posted holds true. As soon as you unsub you lose access to anything you you haven't bought, e.g quest packs, most skirmishes, freepside, VIP only areas like HoN and IotF.

Everybody has to buy expansions. You don't rent them as a VIP at all. If you spend your TP wisely on content you do indeed buy that content. You don't have to rent it anymore. For example, I have not rented (subbed) LotRO for a year but I still get to play what I've paid for - that is absolutely everything except the VIP skirmishes (don't like), Freepside (I have Creeps), Destiny Perks (I still have points but whatever), and Gold Viva Michel Delving presents (gag). I may have forgotten something else which doesn't matter.

Yes, and if you decide to stop playing you're not going to get your toons sent to you on a disk or anything. You are renting for various fees. In much the same way you pay for cable, and then pay an extra fee for HBO. Consider the HD "charge" as a one-time access fee, whether its cash or TP you're paying with. Imagine if HBO only charged a one-time access fee, instead of a monthly sub. Anyway, when you buy a game (like Skyrim, for instance) you have it. You can play it on your little computer whenever you want. With LOTRO (indeed with any MMO) you are simply renting time in their park. Think of it more like Disneyland. If you pay the admission, you can visit the park, but you don't own it in any fashion. (Again, imagine if Disneyland only charged a one-time access fee. That'd be cool.)

[Bendin]

Yes, and if you decide to stop playing you're not going to get your toons sent to you on a disk or anything. You are renting for various fees. In much the same way you pay for cable, and then pay an extra fee for HBO. Consider the HD "charge" as a one-time access fee, whether its cash or TP you're paying with. Imagine if HBO only charged a one-time access fee, instead of a monthly sub. Anyway, when you buy a game (like Skyrim, for instance) you have it. You can play it on your little computer whenever you want. With LOTRO (indeed with any MMO) you are simply renting time in their park. Think of it more like Disneyland. If you pay the admission, you can visit the park, but you don't own it in any fashion. (Again, imagine if Disneyland only charged a one-time access fee. That'd be cool.)

For the most part you are correct as far as what's "owned" or not. But you opened this analogy in response to why some felt "upset" about the changes.

There is one small difference between Cable companies and vacation parks vis a vis mmo's, they do not rely on longevity to be profitable. Cable companies rely more on local monopolies (often protected by law) with maybe a 1/2 backed competition from a local dish network, while amusement parks rely on their individual "summer crowd". MMo's on the other hand to remain profitable in todays VERY crowded market require and need either a long term player base or a very efficient revolving door.

Lotro for 6yrs utilized longevity in conjunction with the IP to pay the bills. But for the longevity approach to work, it requires it's consumer base to become personally invested both emotionally and financially over the long term. This has benefits(witch should be obvious so I won't get into it) and hidden penalties. One of those penalties relevant to this discussion is getting ones player base invested that much in your product makes them partial owners (at least in their own minds), And tend to make at least certain portions react negatively to large scale changes. Even though they don't actually "own" the service; by following the longevity path one creates an environment in witch you need to them to "think" they "own" it. And just as emotional attachment is a key factor of longevity, large scale changes (real or percieved) are going to engender an emotional response from at least part of your consumer base. 1 + 1 =2

This has been the constant of the mmo genre from UO to SWTOR any time large scale changes are introduced. Most devs/pubs tend try to avoid it and tweak along the margins. Because the blowback has always been in direct proportion to the comprehensiveness of the change in question.

That does not mean change is bad, it just means one must tread more and more carefully as the scope of a change and the level of player investment increases.

Aim small, miss small
Grand sweeping changes to already existing games have historically been something of a dogs breakfast in the mmo genre. The gamble may pay off big for you or it might blow up in your face or anything in between. And to date, more teams than not have mis-predicted witch they are gonna get.

[Lohi]

You are renting for various fees.

Investing in the game I think should always be short term. Ie, pay enough to have fun for the month, or a three month period, or buy the expansion so that you have fun for half a year or so, etc. The only real investment in this game was the lifetime accounts, which so far have paid off well. Perhaps someone buying a chunk of TP on sale is investing but it doesn't make too much sense to stockpile them early; buy enough for the quest packs you're going to do in the short term.

In any event, we haven't been investing for 6 years hoping to finally get a payout. We invested for 6 years and have gotten 6 years of payouts.

[Ryvick]

Just to get this thread back on topic again here are:

The Top Three problems in what could have been an incredible expansion:

A. I have said it before and I will keep saying it till those in charge understand. Trait trees are inherently faulty and will not work.

1. You are required to get through poor traits to get to good traits by design.

2. You are asked to spend twice the number of points in any other tree besides the primary.

3. You only get a single trait point every 2 levels but whereas on live you get a new or improved skill every 2-3 levels your looking at placing a point in a pointless trait every 2 to 4 levels (If you put a point in an off tree your looking at wasting 4 levels!).

4. There are only about 2 traits in each row of each tree so your looking at very little choice at ALL! One of those traits is almost always 5 ranks of some absurd Mastery rating!

5. Fully traited you are looking at having about HALF the strength your character ever had on live. Overall a class does have more skills than currently on live but considering 3/4ths are locked behind the trait trees you will never have more than half the skills you have access to on live (More likely 1/3rd).


Overall, Devs will spend more time tinkering with these absurd trees each expansion even though they state that the 2 to 1 point costs in off trees are designed so they don't have to look at the trees every expansion. The lack of skills is supposedly to ease development and yet they will still have to develop as if every character has access to all their skills anyway. Again and again this just looks like a boneheaded move that will only be discovered too late!

B. Threat Changes are going to be poorly thought out in conjunction with problem C. Its going to look like the same problem the threat changes in Moria launch (DPS out of Control with the LI DPS till it was nerfed and No way for Tanks to Control Aggro until Aggro Gen increased on Threat skills aka "Moria Threat Fiasco").

1. Threat generation is going to be primarily DPS based.

2. Tanks will have little inherent Threat Generation other than the 300% modifier on their base damage. I do not see tanks being able to do 1/3rd the DPS of a full DPS class.

3. Tanks will be getting threat catch up added to their Snap Taunts, however this amounts to little more than "Threat +1". and We will be looking at tanks doing nothing but attempting to DPS and waiting on their Snap Taunts to get off Cooldown.

C. This is where I put the Obscene Stat increases on Gear. Most players call it Stat inflation. A lot of people knows what happens to a game that doesnt handle their stat inflation well. Blizzard had even posted a lengthy article about the troubles unchecked stat inflation had been doing to their own game. You can see further problems with unchecked stat inflation in the end game of SWTOR on Makeb and anywhere in the StormLegion Expansion in Rift. You start seeing Mobs with obscene amounts of health and a lack of players running around when they get bored of just standing there whittling away at Enemy NPC health.
Stat progression needs to be tightly controlled and as linear as possible to limit Stat Inflation and absurd jumps in both player stats and Enemy NPC stats that just stat spiraling out of control.



Those are the biggest problems of this Expansion.


This could have been one of my Favorite Expansions with the Big Battles, and Western Rohan. Instead I am dreading every day this gets closer. It's Sad.

[Darlgon]

But what if you unequip your weapon and shield and forget about it? I do that all the time, and notice it as soon as I have entered combat and see that I have no sword

And what about all those times I have forgotten to switch from the fishing rod? For some reason it just isn't as effective to fight the watcher in the water with a fishing rod instead of a sword and shield...



I don't really mind it being impossible to switch from one equip to another during combat, but I think it should be possible to equip weapons if you aren't holding any at all.

Otherwise I'll run the risk of dying after every concert I go to on Landroval :P

Just to clarify. Weapons are the ONLY things you can change out. You CANNOT change out armor, jewels, etc. I think you misread his post.. I dont remember shields exactly, but I think another poster said them too, and range, but NOT your class item.

[Zombielord]

It's not just the amount of points or the penalty for traiting outside of the line you've picked ...

Imagine you chose dps line, but you're not impressed with the first skills available in the skill tree and only put 1 point there ... Not happening sorry. As you work your way down to the dps capstone you will
continously get into situations were the skilltree design forces you to spend addional points on skills you really don't find all too useful.

Wasting points on learning skills and passives that I don't want? Really?

[Radbug]

Yes, and if you decide to stop playing you're not going to get your toons sent to you on a disk or anything. You are renting for various fees. In much the same way you pay for cable, and then pay an extra fee for HBO. Consider the HD "charge" as a one-time access fee, whether its cash or TP you're paying with. Imagine if HBO only charged a one-time access fee, instead of a monthly sub. Anyway, when you buy a game (like Skyrim, for instance) you have it. You can play it on your little computer whenever you want. With LOTRO (indeed with any MMO) you are simply renting time in their park. Think of it more like Disneyland. If you pay the admission, you can visit the park, but you don't own it in any fashion. (Again, imagine if Disneyland only charged a one-time access fee. That'd be cool.)

Your analogies are strained to say the least. I own my car. I paid for it up front. One day I won't be able to use it again - is it rented?

If I decide to stop playing Skyrim I have a.... coffee coaster. I have a fair few of those. If I decide to stop playing LotRO I have everything I paid for as long as the servers are up. No coffee coaster though.

I'm not going to engage you in a digital vs physical ownership rights discussion. This thread is not about that. But if you think I'm renting LotRO then I strongly disagree.

Little computer, Disneyland, that'd be cool? I see what you tried to do there....