Official Discussion: Helm's Deep NDA Drop.

[Dworin]

A people who dislike the changes but want to see Moria and will support a flawed product(to them)
B People who dislike the changes and will not continue
C people who like the changes and will continue
D those who like the changes, but are mad others don't, and don't believe they deserve an opinion or have a right to make ones own purchasing decision. They just spam people who voice concerns with points why they SHOULD like it
E those who dislike like the changes, but are mad others do and don't believe they deserve an opinion have a right to make ones own purchasing decision. They just spam people who voice praise with points why they SHOULD NOT like it

Welcome to a polarizing expansion it will get no better, just quieter <---IMHO).

Seems like a reasonably good summary to me. (though I'd replace Moria with Helm's Deep)

[Bendin]

Seems like a reasonably good summary to me. (though I'd replace Moria with Helm's Deep)

opps I actually meant Mordor lol

[Dworin]

opps I actually meant Mordor lol

Hehehe, easy mistake to make. *smile*

[Lohi]

What these class changes have given us is more homogenization between classes. Everyone can be main dps now.

This is a flaw in the game to be sure. People now are essentially choosing DPS as their main role, plus one other very minor role (heal,tank,support,cc) that they'll never be asked to do for the majority of the gmae.

It actually wasn't that long ago when there was some challenging stuff. Ie, Roots of Fangorn had some tough fights; my lore master was doing 5 different things in the first boss fight, my tank found it engaging, my healer was sweating through it, etc. Granted, some groups found it relatively easy but quite a few were struggling.

[frickinmuck]

HUH? what multi boss raid? Far as I know there isn't even a single. Or is this a hope and dream statement?

Hope and dream statement. Turbine have repeatedly said that one of the reasons behind the changes is that the current system was causing huge headaches in creating new content. I choose to believe them, and believe that this will make it easier for them to give us more of what we really want in future updates.

[NaktiesKarys]

Once more a half-noobish question about traits.
Let us say, toon "AlphaOne" is f2p and therefore some trait slots locked. They are unlockable for 95 TPs (current sale - some 71 TP). Let us imagine, this toon has 5 class slots and 2 of them unlocked, while 3 remain locked.
Situation A: toon unlocks all slots (it's sales after all);
Situation B: toon does not unlock.
What would change after Helms Deep launch? Would toon in Situation A get more points...or the same as in Situation B?

[Thorwyn99]

Once more a half-noobish question about traits.
Let us say, toon "AlphaOne" is f2p and therefore some trait slots locked. They are unlockable for 95 TPs (current sale - some 71 TP). Let us imagine, this toon has 5 class slots and 2 of them unlocked, while 3 remain locked.
Situation A: toon unlocks all slots (it's sales after all);
Situation B: toon does not unlock.
What would change after Helms Deep launch? Would toon in Situation A get more points...or the same as in Situation B?

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...des-on-Changes
The Trait points and how you get them part.

Basically each bought legendary/class slots unlocks a specialization step in a tree after HD, the points to spend on a tree you can get are unaffected though.

As a side note there was the issue that legendary slot unlocks cost 195 TP on live while all spec unlocks in Beta cost 95 TP, so i'm not sure if it's worth buying any legendary slots, i'm also not sure if we ever got a clarification on this.

[Beorthnoth]

Isn't the epic quest line tied into the big battles? And if they are my statement would be entirely true. And why is any of the regular questing locked behind anything? Isn't paying for it enough to unlock it?

The epic quests at Helm's Deep require you to complete the battles, much the same as Mirkwood required you to complete skirmishes. This is right at the end of the expansion - by the time I got there I'd done pretty much all of the landscape content. Note that this time around, buying the expansion unlocks both epic and regular questing. Try to look on it the same way as having to complete the first chapter of Book 2 to unlock Moria, or the Mirkwood prologue. It's not like this is something new.

[Atrixzia]

Some questions the new trait trees look complicated.
I am not buying Helms Deep yet,

When i log on day one of HD will i have to reset all my traits for all my alts

Will you be able to change a trait tree if you decide to try something else or is it cast in stone.

Thanks

[Palentian]

Some questions the new trait trees look complicated.
I am not buying Helms Deep yet,

When i log on day one of HD will i have to reset all my traits for all my alts

Will you be able to change a trait tree if you decide to try something else or is it cast in stone.

Thanks

First, the trees have nothing to do with HD. They are simply going live on the same day.

Second, yes. You'll have to reset all your alts.

Third, you'll have 2 saves for different trait setups but you'll be able to unlock a few others if you need to with MC. You can set up 2 lines, and switch between them as long as you're out of combat. It'll cost a little silver each time you do, similar to having to spend at the bard. Only you wont' have to go to a bard to do it. If you look around there are a few guides on the changes. Some of the beta players spent a great deal of time creating class specific guides on the changes, so go check those out, too. They really did a great job.

[Beorthnoth]

First, the trees have nothing to do with HD. They are simply going live on the same day.

Second, yes. You'll have to reset all your alts.

Third, you'll have 2 saves for different trait setups but you'll be able to unlock a few others if you need to with MC. You can set up 2 lines, and switch between them as long as you're out of combat. It'll cost a little silver each time you do, similar to having to spend at the bard. Only you wont' have to go to a bard to do it. If you look around there are a few guides on the changes. Some of the beta players spent a great deal of time creating class specific guides on the changes, so go check those out, too. They really did a great job.

Not quite true; it won't cost you anything to switch between your specialisations. It does cost silver to reset a specialisation if you want to tweak it.

[Palentian]

Not quite true; it won't cost you anything to switch between your specialisations. It does cost silver to reset a specialisation if you want to tweak it.

Really? Huh. My bad. I could have sworn it cost to switch. Ah well. Thanks for the correction.

[Jurny]

First, the trees have nothing to do with HD. They are simply going live on the same day.

Second, yes. You'll have to reset all your alts.

Third, you'll have 2 saves for different trait setups but you'll be able to unlock a few others if you need to with MC. You can set up 2 lines, and switch between them as long as you're out of combat. It'll cost a little silver each time you do, similar to having to spend at the bard. Only you wont' have to go to a bard to do it. If you look around there are a few guides on the changes. Some of the beta players spent a great deal of time creating class specific guides on the changes, so go check those out, too. They really did a great job.

Everyone won't have 2 saves for different trait setups, it's my understanding that it varies depending on the players status. I believe FTP people will have only 1 save available to them, VIP/Lifetime will have 2, I'm not sure about the Premium players, but if I were to guess, they would get 2 as well. :/

[Crell_1]

Everyone won't have 2 saves for different trait setups, it's my understanding that it varies depending on the players status. I believe FTP people will have only 1 save available to them, VIP/Lifetime will have 2, I'm not sure about the Premium players, but if I were to guess, they would get 2 as well. :/

Premium players get 2.

Though, to be honest I dont know which is more frustrating. Having to redo all of our traits, or having to redo all of quick slots. I'm surprised that the 'Save ALL of the quick slots' values wasn't reacted to much earlier in beta by the team given the reaction it seemed to get in the Q&A.

[narainadun]

Just going to address this part and it sounds like the developer has their head screwed on right regarding the mini in this aspect. What has happened is that minstrels have managed to delude themselves thanks to previous poor changes that they should be unkillable death machines who can faceroll everything in their path because damnit skill is for other people. WRONG. We have light armour so yes, you get hit as a mini, you go down like a sack of potatos. Get rid of this godmode complex and realise that tougher people should be taking the hits and your heals and buffs are meant for them. Ironically this means you might have to group up in a MMO.

As for DPS, again, minstels deluded into thinking they should be doing everything and all roles revolve around them. Minstrels are not a dps class, other classes are. We have our roles, they have theirs.

This. . . Pure and Simple. . . This sums up the Changes to ALL classes. We are no longer Godmode Harbingers of Death and Destruction to the enemies of the Free Peoples and Allies of Sauron. As an RK I can no longer heal on par with healing traited RKs while traited DPS. On live every class can do almost anything. A good mini or RK or LM can even Tank for short periods of time. That is why the changes are taking place. To put everyone in their roles. Every class can DPS to a point, for the solo portion of the game. But for Instances, you wont be seeing many DPS Guards running around. Or Captanks. Or even Chanks. These Changes are being made so that classes Can fulfil their Primary Roles.

As it stands now, i haven't Changed any of my Trait builds on live in over a month. I don't need to. I can DPS or Heal regardless of trait set up, and the penalty to my DPS or Healing will be minimal due to my stats. The only thing i lack is Buffs, Buffed Skills, slight CDR (based on Legacies), and a Smaller Fellowship Heal. I don't need to retrait. My DPS falls only slightly. The basic "Best Builds" on any character has not really changed since Moria (yes i know there have been changes, but all in all, the basic classes have not changed. Even switching Warden to Agility based wasn't that massive of a change.). I think that we have been due for a change for quite some time. While the Tree set up is not my favorite (there is only one way to actually set up a Tree system and have it allow for hybrid builds and that's not the way this was implemented), that being said, there are some definite Pros to it. We are no longer Gods of Middle-Earth. Skill is actually required to be good. Yes, it's late in the game's life to implement this, but we are humans. We can adapt.


Also, i did extensive testing on low level toons. The impact at low levels, while small to the Level 85 who can afford to drop 500 TM/PM, to a level 10, +60TM/PM can be felt enormously. This will benefit the lower level people.

[Calta]

Narainadun since you agreed with this, What roles do you have on beta? 2? 3? The rk i played had two that were viable.

I now have one in HD for minstrel. Heal bot. So thanks for those well chosen words about my main class needing breaking because you think yours is OP

Just going to address this part and it sounds like the developer has their head screwed on right regarding the mini in this aspect. What has happened is that minstrels have managed to delude themselves thanks to previous poor changes that they should be unkillable death machines who can faceroll everything in their path because damnit skill is for other people. WRONG. We have light armour so yes, you get hit as a mini, you go down like a sack of potatos. Get rid of this godmode complex and realise that tougher people should be taking the hits and your heals and buffs are meant for them. Ironically this means you might have to group up in a MMO.

As for DPS, again, minstels deluded into thinking they should be doing everything and all roles revolve around them. Minstrels are not a dps class, other classes are. We have our roles, they have theirs.

No adequate-secondary-comparable to cappies/LMs dps=no viable soloing=no capped healers as everyone gives up levelling through sheer tedium.
And good luck with doing any pre HD content. We haven't even got a ranged corruption removal at present.

No rez in anything except heals means no grouping except traited blue=boring. Triumphant Spirit is still on 45 sec cd. At 91, I am routinely getting 8-12k heals with crits/procs higher, in crafted 80 level gear, and using 85 second agers.. and thats a NOT God-mode?

(remember early moria anyone? no minis to heal then, GLFF was ful of LF healer-they were so boring. Just spam healbots-exactly we are in beta 6. Glad you liked that style. i didn't.)

Happy healer hunting folks- you'd better roll and auto-level our new god-mode healer and then draw the short straw for who plays it in any group. Because most vet minis will be long gone to interesting games, playing RKs LMs and captains, or dead of boredom.

[LaGere]

Actually, if you have the expansion then on the 18th you will be able to login to LotRO and play Big Battles without having to do the epic, or any other content. The only content that is "gated" in any way is the landscape content. You have to do a couple "run around and talk to people" type epic quests to open up the landscape stuff. It's pretty simple and doesn't take long.

Good sir... You have my thoughts in a reverse sort of way. I don't want to do big battles as I don't see them as worth my while. where I want to do epics until I run up to the point where its gated thru big battles. and I especially want to do landscape quests unless they are gated behind one of the other two things(epic line/big battles). It seems to me they are forcing you to complete stuff you don't want to do, to do regular landscape questing. I have a hard enough time understanding why they have gated the epic line behind big battles, let alone gating landscape questing behind anything at all. Choices? Where have the choices gone? Maybe I have misunderstood someone elses post I read but I have had two people quote me and reply with regular quests are gated behind epics and turbine themselves have acknowledged that epics are gated behind big battles. so I don't see a mistake on my end.

[Darlgon]

Good sir... You have my thoughts in a reverse sort of way. I don't want to do big battles as I don't see them as worth my while. where I want to do epics until I run up to the point where its gated thru big battles. and I especially want to do landscape quests unless they are gated behind one of the other two things(epic line/big battles). It seems to me they are forcing you to complete stuff you don't want to do, to do regular landscape questing. I have a hard enough time understanding why they have gated the epic line behind big battles, let alone gating landscape questing behind anything at all. Choices? Where have the choices gone? Maybe I have misunderstood someone elses post I read but I have had two people quote me and reply with regular quests are gated behind epics and turbine themselves have acknowledged that epics are gated behind big battles. so I don't see a mistake on my end.

Lets try this then:

From here


https://www.lotro.com/en/game/articl...ep-quest-notes

When you buy the Helm’s Deep expansion, you will also get access to the next three Books of the Epic Story:

Volume III, Book 11: The Golden Hall
Volume III, Book 12: War in the Westemnet
Volume III, Book 13: Helm’s Deep

But why are these Books tied into purchase of the expansion? I wrote a post on the forums in September to explain the decision,


...



We're a Free-to-Play game now, so obviously that requires a change in approach. We gradually modified the way the Epic worked. People forget now, but when the transition to F2P happened the existing expansion packs didn't have free Epic Books - you had to pick up Mines of Moria in order to do its six Epic Books, and if you didn't have Mirkwood then Volume II Book 9 was also blocked away. As the level cap increased and we got further and further into the game (and further along in our story's timeline), we loosened restrictions on what you needed in order to experience those Epic Books. You could play them for free, and you could solo them (if you wanted - except for the Volume II Epilogue. That one's on me, guys. Sorry!)


...


But there would come a time in the future when the decision wasn't so easy. What if there were a system looming on the horizon that would be the centerpiece of an expansion, such that everything was tied into it, and the Epic Story needed to interweave with it in such a way that we couldn't separate the two, but we also couldn't give you the entire system for free? Ah, I'm sure our Future Selves will handle it.

Well, here we are in the future, confronted with a system that allows you to experience the Battle of the Hornburg in all its rainy glory, and an Epic Story that would be doing you a disservice if it didn't tell the story of that battle. There are players who play the Epic even without buying the expansions, and I am sorry that this is a change for you guys. But it's a change that serves to reward the players that do pick up the expansion, and makes the expansion a better deal, more worth your time and your money. This is just an expansion change for now - I'm hoping we can keep the Epic Story free in other updates. But for big expansions I'd expect that it'll be featured as one of the Things You Get on the 'virtual box.'”

Or, this:

Is there a list of what is included in the expansion that is not free for all players. I know the quests are not free, but the level cap rise and the epic quest lines are free. So what do you get for the money and what is free for everyone.

Sure thing.


Requires purchase of the Helm's Deep expansion pack
Battle of Helm's Deep (Epic Battles).
Epic Story.
Western Rohan/Helm's Deep Content (Quests).


Does not require Expansion Pack Purchase
Class Changes.
Level Cap increase.
Additional Crafting Tier.

Landscape quests have never been gated behind epic, but gated behind the purchase of the new content. (IE, you could do Wildermere epic story, but not even be offered the landscape.)

The Epic quest line requires you to do Big Battles, so you HAVE to buy Helm's Deep to COMPLETE the Epic. Hope that makes sense.

[gardavil]

This is a flaw in the game to be sure. People now are essentially choosing DPS as their main role, plus one other very minor role (heal,tank,support,cc) that they'll never be asked to do for the majority of the gmae.

It actually wasn't that long ago when there was some challenging stuff. Ie, Roots of Fangorn had some tough fights; my lore master was doing 5 different things in the first boss fight, my tank found it engaging, my healer was sweating through it, etc. Granted, some groups found it relatively easy but quite a few were struggling.

Not all will choose DPS as their primary role. My Guardian will be a Tank, my RK a Healer (because I actually enjoy RK as a Healer much more than I ever did a Mini), and my DPS/Support.... as I personally think they should be (a personal outlook and approach to playing my characters, I am not barking orders here). Regardless of whether it works well or not, regardless of what Turbine does to the classes beyond HD. I will play my characters as such, I will submit bug reports as needed, and I will try to have fun doing so. At least the Devs will have Data on how these Classes work when NOT tree'd DPS.

[Beorthnoth]

Good sir... You have my thoughts in a reverse sort of way. I don't want to do big battles as I don't see them as worth my while. where I want to do epics until I run up to the point where its gated thru big battles. and I especially want to do landscape quests unless they are gated behind one of the other two things(epic line/big battles). It seems to me they are forcing you to complete stuff you don't want to do, to do regular landscape questing. I have a hard enough time understanding why they have gated the epic line behind big battles, let alone gating landscape questing behind anything at all. Choices? Where have the choices gone? Maybe I have misunderstood someone elses post I read but I have had two people quote me and reply with regular quests are gated behind epics and turbine themselves have acknowledged that epics are gated behind big battles. so I don't see a mistake on my end.

I do see what you're getting at. I was just trying to set out the order in which things happen. If I can try to put it a little more clearly -

1. Landscape quests do not become available until you've done most, if not all, of book 11. I can understand that you don't like this. However, this has been used before by Turbine, in terms of needing to be some of the epic stuff to get into Moria and Mirkwood.

2. From that point, everything is opened up, though if you like a lot of flexibility in your gameplay, you should be aware that there's more than a little linearity in needing to complete some quest chaind to open up others.

3. Questing in the Helm's Deep area is almost 100% epic quests, and it is these that require you to participate in the big battles. I have heard rumours that these capters will auto-complete if you fail a battle 3 times, but I can't verify this.

I appreciate you don't like or agree with this. I was just trying to make it clear what is required at various points, and what the gating mechanisms are. I certainly wasn't trying to be combative, or to dismiss yours concerns as meaningless.

[frickinmuck]

Good sir... You have my thoughts in a reverse sort of way. I don't want to do big battles as I don't see them as worth my while. where I want to do epics until I run up to the point where its gated thru big battles. and I especially want to do landscape quests unless they are gated behind one of the other two things(epic line/big battles). It seems to me they are forcing you to complete stuff you don't want to do, to do regular landscape questing. I have a hard enough time understanding why they have gated the epic line behind big battles, let alone gating landscape questing behind anything at all. Choices? Where have the choices gone? Maybe I have misunderstood someone elses post I read but I have had two people quote me and reply with regular quests are gated behind epics and turbine themselves have acknowledged that epics are gated behind big battles. so I don't see a mistake on my end.

As was already mentioned, having to complete epics to get to landscape content is not new at all. There are other areas of the game where the same is true.

As for Big Battles, this is Helm's Deep. Would you prefer an epic quest line that does not in any way touch upon the battles of Helm's Deep? Should Turbine just rewrite the lore so that no one has to go near that content? The Helm's Deep section of the epic questline will necessarily include participating in the battles that took place in that section of the book. I'm sure that there were a lot of Rohirrim who dreaded doing battle there, but they went anyway, for the good of the realm.

Also, i did extensive testing on low level toons. The impact at low levels, while small to the Level 85 who can afford to drop 500 TM/PM, to a level 10, +60TM/PM can be felt enormously. This will benefit the lower level people.

I agree, low levels are getting a real boost with this update.

[Palentian]

Good sir... You have my thoughts in a reverse sort of way. I don't want to do big battles as I don't see them as worth my while. where I want to do epics until I run up to the point where its gated thru big battles. and I especially want to do landscape quests unless they are gated behind one of the other two things(epic line/big battles). It seems to me they are forcing you to complete stuff you don't want to do, to do regular landscape questing. I have a hard enough time understanding why they have gated the epic line behind big battles, let alone gating landscape questing behind anything at all. Choices? Where have the choices gone? Maybe I have misunderstood someone elses post I read but I have had two people quote me and reply with regular quests are gated behind epics and turbine themselves have acknowledged that epics are gated behind big battles. so I don't see a mistake on my end.

Part of the problem of separating the Epic from the Battles is that this whole part of the story is almost entirely wrapped up in Helm's Deep. This truly is one of the pivotal moments in the main story. As has been pointed out, Epics were not always free. At one time you had to buy Moria to do anything there. The Epic line was made free AFTER the release. In Moria it was possible to separate out the Epic line from everything else happening in Moria. In Mirkwood, you HAVE to do the beginning area to unlock ALL the other quests in the zone. Heck, even in Angmar there are skirms that are part of the epic line. So this gating of content is not without precedence. There was no way to separate an epic line from EB because those battles are pivotal to the epic line. I'm not saying that the whole epic line is wrapped up in EB, but enough of it is (and should be) that it probably would have caused more problems to try and make PART of it free, but you have to pay for the rest. Imagine the outrage if that happened. And making all of EB free is unrealistic from a business perspective.

[Lohi]

let alone gating landscape questing behind anything at all.

This is how the game used to work though. It's not a new change. Epic quests used to be required to open up other quests; most obviously to be able to enter Moria or Mirkwood or east Angmar. We've also had epic quests gated behind landscape quests as well, we've had epic quests gating skirmishes and skirmishes gating epic quests.

[Andthelion]

As was already mentioned, having to complete epics to get to landscape content is not new at all. There are other areas of the game where the same is true.

That doesnt mean anyone has to agree with it, or like it, or pay for it, there have been expansions that did not require this way of doing things as well, so the argument "it happened before" is irrelevant

As for Big Battles, this is Helm's Deep. Would you prefer an epic quest line that does not in any way touch upon the battles of Helm's Deep? Should Turbine just rewrite the lore so that no one has to go near that content? The Helm's Deep section of the epic questline will necessarily include participating in the battles that took place in that section of the book.

I would prefer something that was actually epic and not slow, dull and clunky, if their goal was to get helms deep into the game and make it fun, engaging and epic, then they have failed miserably, if their goal was to get it in cheaply, and then dress it up as epic, then hats off because they absolutely nailed that one.

I'm sure that there were a lot of Rohirrim who dreaded doing battle there, but they went anyway, for the good of the realm

Yes, but they dreaded it because they feared the onslaught of thousands of orcs, with turbines Helms Deep they would have dreaded it for its dreary epic dullness ( oh look at that it is epic after all ) instead of fighting off the invading army they would have been fighting amongst themselves over who had to go muck about with that godforsaken catapult, or who had to go watch the never ending meter fill up while they reload some rocks (allthough at least doing that means they get completely ignored by any orcs)

[FoxFire]

While reading through the thoughts regarding the class changes and the trait/skill trees has put a bit of concern in me (though less so than some of the alarmist posts had originally), I am most hopeful that if they've done as great a job on the Epic quest line and the landscape as they have previously, I'm going to enjoy this expansion.

I suspect it will take some time to get used to the changes. It will be most interesting to see what people think about them in a few months after we've gotten used to them and various balance issues and further input have been implemented.