Player Guide: Class Changes Summary: Guardian

[Kantazouno]

IO will say don't get excited and wait for the many nerfs coming our way.

[oaceen]

Then in Lotro I really liked the "waiting for parry or block event", even if it has something of a monkey getting his bananas ;-)
It gave the impression that the guardian is a truly defensive fighter, who waits for a fault of his enemy, and then counters him. It "felt" differently than rotating, and much more fun, at least to me personally.

i like and agree with your assessment of how responses work currently, and, for most intents and purposes, that seems to work fine. you actively have to work on building aggro to open up the class' full potential. actively working on building aggro gives opens up these responses that allows access to better aggro skills and stuns, interrupts, and bleeds. it is really engaging and fun.

except when it's not: for those particular fights where it's very unlikely or completely impossible to get responses. lots of fight mechanics already in the game don't really play into giving guards a decent amount of block/parry responses that is completely irrespective of the guardian's B/P/E ratings. there are plenty with lots of tactical attacks instead of physical, lots of induction-based abilities, lots of random aggro attacks, or bosses with 100% avoidance penetration that leave guards pretty starved with responses and thus makes it quite difficult to hold aggro.


so i like the new system for situations like that. i am more proactive in handling my own threat, and i can build it whether or not the mob is giving me block/parry responses.

also, we're actually still dependent upon actual blocks and parries, just... not in the same way. in blue line, blocks self-heal, parries (which can't be auto-initiated for blue) are useful for applying bleeds and/or FMs with smashing stab
in yellow line, blocking and parrying builds a stacking crit def and crit buff (over 4k & 1.5k, respectively) that can stun or apply a bleed to a target when at 5 stacks.

it is more of a passive benefit rather than an active one, it's more about defensive abilities with a smaller benefit to threat, but the trade-off is that we are in complete control of our own threat now instead of waiting around for responses to light up.

[Dugal_aus_Gondor]

Great thanks for your post, oaceen!

What you write sounds encouraging and make sme hope the new system will be fun, too, maybe just different.
And you are of course right about the disadvatages of a purely on responses based aggro system.

Now I'm looking forward to next monday, I'm curious how it will be.

[Bendin]

it is more of a passive benefit rather than an active one, it's more about defensive abilities with a smaller benefit to threat, but the trade-off is that we are in complete control of our own threat now instead of waiting around for responses to light up.

That's kinda the point though, people who played primarily as guard did so because the liked the basic precept of the class warts and all. For 6+ years it remained the same. From a functional standpoint the change works, but it is not the same class, in play or in "feel". People who leave the class or the game over it won't be doing so because they can't adjust to the change, they will be doing so because the class is not for them anymore.

Those who stay and adjust to the changes will then discover the joy of not actually having anything to tank(but dif topic).

[oaceen]

That's kinda the point though

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I'm not arguing for or against any point.

[Cambruin]

I've lost faith in turbine long time ago. Never lost faith in the game though. These changes made the game even more to my liking while restoring a bit of faith in Turbine. Still not spending a dime though.

[Kolgrath]

I just started playing LOTRO a couple of weeks ago. Looks like I picked the perfect time to start!

I am excited about the Guardian changes. I enjoy the class now, but I do mostly solo stuff anyways so the changes seem like they'll make my experience even better.

[Dougvk]

In Blue and Yellow spec you will generate +300% Aggro, so you basically tank with all skills that deal damage. In addition to that, some of your force taunts will have an new mechanic that adds additional aggro, depending on the total aggro of the fellowship. It's called "threat catch up".

How far down do we have to trait in blue or yellow to get the 300% aggro? Can we pick just a few blue or yellow traits and then trait the rest in red and still receive the 300% aggro?

[furtim]

How far down do we have to trait in blue or yellow to get the 300% aggro? Can we pick just a few blue or yellow traits and then trait the rest in red and still receive the 300% aggro?

You have to choose the Blue or Yellow specialisation. Once you do that, you get the 300% aggro regardless of where you spend your trait points.

[MitchOverlord]

Hm, I don't want to form an opinion until I get to play with the changes, but I'm not sure I like the fact that stances were folded into traits. I was happy with being able to switch between overpower for deeds or if I felt like there wasn't much chance of dying, and then being able to quickly go to other stances inbetween fights if the situation called for it.

At first when I started playing the game I didn't like guard because it felt too slow, when they introduced wardens I tried one and while I absolutely loved the idea of a spear and javelin weilding medium-armored tank, I found that I couldn't keep up with the increasing length and variety of the gambits. I went back to guard and found that if you had the right gear and traits you could do decent damage, at least enough that it didn't feel slow. I feel like if I want to retain that feeling I'll have to do the keen blade and then re-spec if I want to tank. I hope that's not the case.

To be honest, when they announced HD I was hoping for a new class, I always wanted some kind of berserker that did more damage the lower it's health got, or at least a trait line like that for one of the melee classes.

[Pumpus_Maximus]

Ok maybe i missed something but Engage was a THREAT-COPY skill, same with Challenge the Darkness, meaning you could always get back on top of the threat list whenever you needed/wanted. Now its just another taunt ?

What happens after u die and get rez'd after u tanked through a million of damage ?

What if you need to aggro-swap between 2 guardians? This was a pretty common mechanic in 50-65 raids .( i didnt play after OD )
Hum? ..

[furtim]

Ok maybe i missed something but Engage was a THREAT-COPY skill, same with Challenge the Darkness, meaning you could always get back on top of the threat list whenever you needed/wanted. Now its just another taunt ?

Actually, all Forced Attack skills now include the same threat copy mechanic that Engage used to have, in addition to the taunt effect.

[Pumpus_Maximus]

Actually, all Forced Attack skills now include the same threat copy mechanic that Engage used to have, in addition to the taunt effect.

Oh wow, ok then

[Kenjutsu]

I have a level 25 guardian that is one of my played characters. I was going to red spec for levelling, with a back up blue spec for when a lowbie tank is needed.

Can people say why I should think about having a yellow spec instead of either of those? I'm not sure I understand exactly what yellow brings to the table here. Want to make sure I'm not missing out.

Thanks!

[Ioffryd]

I have a level 25 guardian that is one of my played characters. I was going to red spec for levelling, with a back up blue spec for when a lowbie tank is needed.

Can people say why I should think about having a yellow spec instead of either of those? I'm not sure I understand exactly what yellow brings to the table here. Want to make sure I'm not missing out.

Thanks!

I think Yellow is the place to be for general-purpose use, because it's the most flexible. Blue is group-play tanking only, unless you're a masochist who likes long fights. Nothing wrong with Red; it's where the 5-digit crits live, but you basically have to take on the Champ's mentality of kill-it-faster-than-it-kills-you.

Yellow lets you turtle up behind your shield, debuff your enemies into impotence, and survive; or it lets you bust out the driver and hit for distance. You won't see the gigantic numbers, but the persistent Light damage on your primary target is like a big exta d.o.t. that shortens fights quite nicely.

[Tat2Yoda]

small correction, but it's actually +300% from everything i've read, so you only need to be above 1/4 of the highest aggro holder.

Any Formula to making sure your tank is 1/4 highest aggro ? I have a Tank and other toons aswell , I make a note of of telling everyone to give the tank atleast 8 - 12 sec of taunts and attacks in order to build aggro before the DPSers step in to the fight. Will this plan of aggro build still work ?
To me a Tank = Aggro King , we hold the Head while DPSers kill the body so to speak. I never hold a prob holding aggro from 1 to 7 mobs the old way.As for the New healing return skills I say drop them and give me back all my taunts and a Mini that knows their role( a Healer) and I'll stand my ground and fight anything.

[Kenjutsu]

I think Yellow is the place to be for general-purpose use, because it's the most flexible. Blue is group-play tanking only, unless you're a masochist who likes long fights. Nothing wrong with Red; it's where the 5-digit crits live, but you basically have to take on the Champ's mentality of kill-it-faster-than-it-kills-you.

Yellow lets you turtle up behind your shield, debuff your enemies into impotence, and survive; or it lets you bust out the driver and hit for distance. You won't see the gigantic numbers, but the persistent Light damage on your primary target is like a big exta d.o.t. that shortens fights quite nicely.

Thats helpful, thank you. I think I'll stick with red and blue to try and be the best (mitigation) tank I can be or the best dps I can be. Yellow sounds interesting but a halfway house for my play style.

[Ortulas]

I have equipped Overpower (Keen Blade), but my Guardian cannot use the Overpower Tactics my scholar made for him. What’s that?

[oaceen]

I have equipped Overpower (Keen Blade), but my Guardian cannot use the Overpower Tactics my scholar made for him. What’s that?

yeah, this is really annoying. not sure what they are going to do to fix it :/

[Thorick]

Thats helpful, thank you. I think I'll stick with red and blue to try and be the best (mitigation) tank I can be or the best dps I can be. Yellow sounds interesting but a halfway house for my play style.

I quit playing once i maxed out at level 85, but i would suggest trying out the yellow trait with a sword and shield. You may not be killing mass mobs as fast, but you will be able to solo quests that other classes (except wardens) couldn't dream of doing. Don't be afraid to try different trait builds as this will help you truly understand the functionality of each skill/trait build. I think the fun part of playing a guardian is trying to figure out what i can solo. It won't be fast, but you can survive a lot with a shield, a sword, and a good rotation of self-healing/power generating skills.

[Estelaen]

Thanks for the guide, here are two questions I have after some tests:

Hammer Down - This skill damages the target and provide additional damage when the target is below 25% of it's health. When you defeat the target with this skill it provides a +5% melee damage for 15s and this buff can stack up to 3 times. The buff will expire if you're out of combat for more than 9s. When you land a critical hit with this skill it also restores 2% of your max morale. The cd of this skill is 1m.

1. If this skill has a cd of 1mn, and the buff is 15s, how can you stack the buff up to three times ?

2. When traited red, are there more bleeds than the following : sweeping cut, thrust, brutal assault (with a 50% chance) ? How are we supposed to stack ten bleeds ?

[oaceen]

Thanks for the guide, here are two questions I have after some tests:



1. If this skill has a cd of 1mn, and the buff is 15s, how can you stack the buff up to three times ?

2. When traited red, are there more bleeds than the following : sweeping cut, thrust, brutal assault (with a 50% chance) ? How are we supposed to stack ten bleeds ?

it can stack up to three times because when you get a killing blow with the skill, the CD resets.

when traited red, all crits with all skills stack 1 bleed by default. later on, a set bonus applies 2 bleed stacks from crits.

[Tallship]

This guide is fantastic, but I think there are two critical things missing from it. Things that would go a long way to avoiding a lot of frustration.

The first is "New Trait Trees 101", either a guide or link. I've been looking and I still haven't found one. So far I've worked out a few bits of info on the system by digging through threads, stuff like if you specialize in a tree points are half the cost of the other trees. But seriously can someone point me to the document that tells me how this new system works? If players don't understand that, then they really can't get into into the advanced stuff like particular skills and stacking bonuses. So if it exists, shouldn't that basic guide be linked at the top of all these class specific trait guides, and stickied somewhere really visible?

The second thing needed is right after the first sentence "Threat/aggro management is being changed/simplified and is now mainly being generated through DPS.", you need to put : "As guardians, we receive a 300% bonus to threat generated by DPS when we specialize in either the blue or yellow trees."
After reading that first sentence by itself I spent several very #$%$ off hours believing Turbine had just ruined the game for guardians, because there was no way I would be able to out-DPS and DPS based class. Looking around I can see I'm not the only one.

[Estelaen]

it can stack up to three times because when you get a killing blow with the skill, the CD resets.

when traited red, all crits with all skills stack 1 bleed by default. later on, a set bonus applies 2 bleed stacks from crits.

Thanks for your answer. So basically, when traited red each crit will both heal you and apply a bleed ? Sounds like might is definitely not the main attribute for DPS now, I'll have to turn to +crit as much as I can...

[oaceen]

Thanks for your answer. So basically, when traited red each crit will both heal you and apply a bleed ? Sounds like might is definitely not the main attribute for DPS now, I'll have to turn to +crit as much as I can...

only the parry skills (and hammer down) will heal you, but yes, crit is extremely important for redline. i believe the cap for crit at 95 is around 16k now.