Minstrel Feedback on Helm's Deep

[Caelven]

Raise the Spirit has been and still is my main self-heal, I do use the leg that buffs it. Now that I don't have SOS while red-line I have been using Chord of Salvation more often, which is to say, ever. But I do like the effect of taking SOS away while redline, it makes soloing feel more like the Minstrel class of old...

Well i went skirmishing last night and now know that Raise My Spirit is no longer a viable option as a main heal when in melee. I redid my legacies for Chord of My Salvation cooldown and used RMS as fill in. it worked okay i suppose, not so well when i started lagging though, being small heal it has to be Just In Time and not Just A Little Later.

[Deviled_Egg]

Skipping all the rest of your comment, REALLY? Try in production right now. The only way to get to Rally is to trait blue. That being the case, I would have test all your list later today?

edit: I have seen the "retrait 4 or 5 times until Rally shows up" comment and I was unable to make that work. The Rally icon has a blue background for me and theres a tier 6 red already in place.

Telda

This is a bug! Rally was supposed to have been pulled off of players, but if you had the trait slotted when you logged into HD for the first time, you got to keep the skill. A fix should be going in for 12.1 which will make sure you can only have Rally when traited Blue.

[xmorzan]

Our AOE dps is not best in game. And since the new content caters to dps classes that's who we have to compete with for a spot. If I have to compete with a champ for a spot in a BB shouldn't I have dps on par with them? Or an RK who's currently hitting 25k and up crits? Or hunters who have ridiculous dps? Because there's no role for healers in there.

The trait trees were theoretically brought about to give us 3 distinct roles. If one of ours is a dps role, we need dps on par with a dps class. Otherwise this is all a lie.

AOE-wise. It is. If you're not putting out the top numbers you're doing it horribly wrong. ST-wise, we're certainly not tops, but multiple minstrels are topping 20k on CtF, and holding aggro in pretty much any content

And you shouldn't be competing with REAL dps classes for dps spots because our role is healing, not dpsing. If we have a dps line, which we do, it should be serviceable, passable because there were no REAL dps classes available. Why would I roll a champ or hunter when I can fulfill a dps role better with a healer? We might as well delete all the other classes, create a tank line for us and just play this mmo with 1 class that does everything.

[Calta]

--------------------------------
We might as well delete all the other classes, create a tank line for us and just play this mmo with 1 class that does everything.

which is exactly what happens in Big Battles-no role for healers at all. Or tanks really. All classes either dps -like the OP dps guards can, and rune keepers can, and lore-masters can, or champions can, or hunters can, or (god love them) even cappies can, or burglars can, etc.etc.

or we can click on catapults or click on npcs.....No healing role needed there for us (the only new group content available).

I guess we just don't play our class, just click things, according to your view....

[Dramastorm]

I just noticed Cry of Wizards is now a PBAOE,....is that as intended?


If so I will be mucho sad in the pantsal region = (

[Veria]

And you shouldn't be competing with REAL dps classes for dps spots because our role is healing, not dpsing. If we have a dps line, which we do, it should be serviceable, passable because there were no REAL dps classes available. Why would I roll a champ or hunter when I can fulfill a dps role better with a healer? We might as well delete all the other classes, create a tank line for us and just play this mmo with 1 class that does everything.

Anyone who takes a peek at warspeech skills and thinks they look, sound or feel like they're made to heal, should have their head examined. It's so funny how u talk about what is REAL like it's 2007 and minis don't need to compete for single healing spot with 3 other classes, while typical fellowship instances want 4-5 dps classes. Landscape content doesn't need healer at all except for some warbands. BBs require dps more than anything.

Champs, hunters, RKs have dps role yea but they have 2 playstyle dps choices and better armour. Minis are stuck with what it is. Yet, these classic DPS classses also have another role if they pick: tank/CC/heal and no one's rolling their eyes. Devs intended to make all 3 trees have viable group role. If they take away near all survivability from red, keep light armour and low dps, what is red line mini good for in fellowship then?

If you like being pigeon-holed into 1 role, by all means do so. Just don't drag the rest of us with you, thanks. It won't lead this class to a better place.

Btw, before i get told to roll champ/htr/rk, wanted to say i have both champ and hunter at 85 and geared as well as baby RK. They're okay but somehow never given me half the enjoyment with killing things as with mini. Their awesome moves, shouts and music melodies is what i found very appealing and not seen before in any games i played. I know lots of minis who feel the same way.

Tolkien lore supports music doing great harm to evil foes (http://cstm.mymiddleearth.com/2010/0...e-appropriate/). If it wasn't for marketing decision to make RK back in Moria, minis would've had a viable group dps role a long time ago.

[Wiser]

2x AoW
1x AoP
(+30% physical, +20% tactical, -5%AD.)
Buff from coda up constantly.
(+5% Damage, +5% tactical damage)
Buff from ballad
(+4.5% tactical)
Tale
(77 will, fate and vitality 1000 finesse)
EoB debuff
(-1000 crit defence)
iCotSA
(10% off inductions & AD.)
PC damage reflect
(15% damage reflect up constantly)
+CTG and SOA should it become useful.

There are plenty of offensive buffs, enough to show back of the envelope that in a 6 man fellowship of Tank, Healer, You +3 DPS you're better going Yellow than Red. It's no more useless than going Red in a fellowship.

I agree with you the offensive buffs will always be useful since there is no cap for that. I didn't test whether taking a yellow minstrel is more(or much more) beneficial to the group than taking a hunter/rk that can do 20k-30k damage(not DPS) now and then, since one of my "trait tab" is red for solo, another is blue for healing (I named it healbot), and I'm not willing to spend 1g+ to re-spec or 100MC to open up the 3rd one just for the off chance to be able to buff damage in a group. ^^

On a unrelated note, I used to deal twice the damage on mounted combat than on foot, but now it's totally the other way around.

[Wiser]

We might as well delete all the other classes, create a tank line for us and just play this mmo with 1 class that does everything.

Actually this class exists. It's called captain. They also wear heavy armor, has a group wide buff, able to rez in-combat even if DPS/tank traited (hasn't confirm this one after beta), and has a pet, which is much better than us squishy minis. Luckily for every other classes that exists, captains are not extremely OP.

[00CloughRN]

I just noticed Cry of Wizards is now a PBAOE,....is that as intended?


If so I will be mucho sad in the pantsal region = (

It's not, at least for me. I know the animation is a bit misleading, but the AOE is definitely centred on the target.

[Silmelin]

If DPS get lowered, how will I be able to solo then? Yes, I can kill things quickly now, but I'm a LOT squishier which means that I die very quickly and there's less healing for me to use so if I don't kill the mob quickly, I'll be the one who falls
I'm questing in a lower leveled area than me at the moment but the mobs hit me very very hard. I can't keep up with my healing, but since I hit them hard, I can still get by.

If DPS gets lowered, I will need my defense back

Btw, before i get told to roll champ/htr/rk, wanted to say i have both champ and hunter at 85 and geared as well as baby RK. They're okay but somehow never given me half the enjoyment with killing things as with mini. Their awesome moves, shouts and music melodies is what i found very appealing and not seen before in any games i played. I know lots of minis who feel the same way.

That's what I like about minstrels too

I'm not a healer, I'm a warrior-skald!

[Dramastorm]

It's not, at least for me. I know the animation is a bit misleading, but the AOE is definitely centred on the target.

Yeah it must be the animation, totally looks like a PBAOE

[Norwrei]

This is a bug! Rally was supposed to have been pulled off of players, but if you had the trait slotted when you logged into HD for the first time, you got to keep the skill. A fix should be going in for 12.1 which will make sure you can only have Rally when traited Blue.

Why did you remove our ability to rez people? Unless traited blue? That makes no sense at all or is it only the incombat rezes? Thanks.

AOE-wise. It is. If you're not putting out the top numbers you're doing it horribly wrong. ST-wise, we're certainly not tops, but multiple minstrels are topping 20k on CtF, and holding aggro in pretty much any content

And you shouldn't be competing with REAL dps classes for dps spots because our role is healing, not dpsing. If we have a dps line, which we do, it should be serviceable, passable because there were no REAL dps classes available. Why would I roll a champ or hunter when I can fulfill a dps role better with a healer? We might as well delete all the other classes, create a tank line for us and just play this mmo with 1 class that does everything.

That's hogwash! Don't speak for all the players, thank you very much! Each plays their class as they choose not as someone else dictates. There is NO reason in the world that a Minstrel should not be able to compete for a dps role in a group.. especially simply not just because you said so!!!!

If DPS get lowered, how will I be able to solo then? Yes, I can kill things quickly now, but I'm a LOT squishier which means that I die very quickly and there's less healing for me to use so if I don't kill the mob quickly, I'll be the one who falls
I'm questing in a lower leveled area than me at the moment but the mobs hit me very very hard. I can't keep up with my healing, but since I hit them hard, I can still get by.

If DPS gets lowered, I will need my defense back



That's what I like about minstrels too

I'm not a healer, I'm a warrior-skald!

That's exactly how I feel. My minstrel is NOT a healer and never was even before warspeach. We all get passionate about our fav class so it's no different for me. I get passionate about the dps aspect of the minstrel as most probably know by now haha. I hate hate hate it when others try to limit you based on their standards.

What i'm loving most about this expansion is that the classes being more of a hybrid offers something for everyone.. diversity can only be good. More choices and flexibility in play style. I love it!

Sadly like every expansion there are always people who come along trying to hold the minstrel back.. they are always asking for nerfs, etc.. complaining, whining, etc. I feel like saying "leave the minstrel alone" or was that Britney? Just joking

For those who are claiming the minstrel's dps is too high, I'm more concerned about the other classes with astronomical dps so once again leave the minstrel alone. thanks!

/rant over

PS It is also Lore appropriate that the Minstrel deal heavy damage. Just ask Tolkien.. by reading his stories. Remember that music and the stories and words that it evoke are powerful, not only in healing but in damage too!

[Gedrevn]

This is a bug! Rally was supposed to have been pulled off of players, but if you had the trait slotted when you logged into HD for the first time, you got to keep the skill. A fix should be going in for 12.1 which will make sure you can only have Rally when traited Blue.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO !

Gonna really hurt red line in the moors.

I just noticed Cry of Wizards is now a PBAOE,....is that as intended?

It is, but the PBAOE range is huge.

which is exactly what happens in Big Battles-no role for healers at all.

That's what I though too, but I've seen a few other people in the Instances subforum talk about being able to single target heal NPCs and Banners. I did one early test just to confirm the no-healing from Beta, and didn't see anything, but maybe it's a specific requirement/bug thing?

[Calta]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO !

Gonna really hurt red line in the moors.


It is, but the PBAOE range is huge.


That's what I though too, but I've seen a few other people in the Instances subforum talk about being able to single target heal NPCs and Banners. I did one early test just to confirm the no-healing from Beta, and didn't see anything, but maybe it's a specific requirement/bug thing?

One or two players claimed to be able to single heal npcs in Beta but I certainly could not. However I am wondering if the pulses from Officer heals maybe the source of confusion, if they coincide with the st heal from the player. .... just an idea.

In general i am running red plus a bit and not bothering about blue. Interestingly the only time i have actually had to heal was an overlevel undermanned run of rift. 85-90s were actually taking a bit of damage from the adds at the last boss fight!(partly due to overlevel overconfidence and consequent leroying.) Imagine that! I was actually having to heal. In a level 50, 5 year old raid.

I'm sorry, but big battles make my main class role redundant-no one gets hurt. My secondary role as dps is ok i guess, but if i wanted aoe dps i'd be taking a LM, fire RK or champ-all of whom can outdo minstrel damage. I've not seen a single 'need heals' in GLFF since the update.

The more i think about it, the more i think it's not just the high heals (and the high burst dps with the right traits and gear) and the OP of DPS across most classes- the real issue is the balance of the enemy. Single damage types, really small aggro areas, and simple mechanics make us seem even more overpowered. I know lots of people have said this but PLEASE make some of the combat content more interesting and challenging.

Suggestion:
My suggestion for a relatively simple solution to future expansions or updates (fingers crossed) is to tweak the standard 'fight the multi adds plus boss' landscape quests to orc camps into something equivalent to an old instance or Angmar level difficulty. Maybe put the odd elite master emerald/shard dropper in the orc camp type quests-make those solo quests optional: put something really nice for LIs in the inevitable landscape chest in the centre of the camps.

On a tangent-LI grinding is the hardest obstacle for newer players, players who change servers, etc. It takes a LONG time to grind the shards for a scroll if it's your first character and you mostly solo-this would balance things out a little.

Give challenge lovers something to solo and allow multi tapping as an incentive for us to cooperate (if not fellow) for those quests. Or we could go back to do them solo as we get tougher. And use them to test builds on. All the stuff people used to do with landscape elites. Like warbands, people would likely start to meet up to do them but unlike MC they'd be able to play their classes 'main' role. And there wouldn't be the same controversy as there were over those vexacious horselords recipes.

Although I loved the Great River region for this cooperative aspect of play, it did gate the progress of some players and is not played now by soloing levellers but this would be just another quest and therefore easily bypassed by people who don't like the harder combat stuff. Like warbands are by those who dislike MC.

Please note-I'd much rather have some Rift like instances for a proper opportunity to challenge me to get better in my role as a healer. But in the interim....this could give us an alternative to clicking in big battles or cutting through landscape mobs like godlings.

[Beaniemooch]

I'm sorry, but big battles make my main class role redundant-no one gets hurt. My secondary role as dps is ok i guess, but if i wanted aoe dps i'd be taking a LM, fire RK or champ-all of whom can outdo minstrel damage. I've not seen a single 'need heals' in GLFF since the update.

I haven't either. I've seen instances run, skirmishes run, battles run - usually group instances all begging for healers because there aren't enough - and no one needs heals. The closest I've seen is "take anything". Usually they're specifically calling for hunters or AOE dps.

[SouthernBelle0927]

I just noticed Cry of Wizards is now a PBAOE,....is that as intended?


If so I will be mucho sad in the pantsal region = (

I took my mini out today on a worm-slaying/ore-gathering expedition in Ram Duath, and liked the greater AoE for the skill--when you're trying to finish a big deed set in a hurry being able to kill 4 mobs at one time is handy. She's level 69 so she decimated them, but I was using it more as an exercise to get used to the new skills and complete a neglected deed.

What bothers me is that my lively and very lady-like mini looks really strange and sounds horrible executing the skill--like a drake with a really bad case of laryngitis. I've always gotten a chuckle out of her Piercing Cry and Call of the Second Age coming out in the middle of all the music, but this new Cry of the Wizards makes me cringe...if it wasn't so effective as a multi-target skill when soloing I'd delete it from my hotbar it's so awful to watch and hear. Minis are music specialists...can't they be a little more graceful and melodic, especially the lady minis?

[SouthernBelle0927]

Two more issues:

1) Is anyone else noticing that Call of Orome stays on regardless of stance? It's always been dependent on War-Speech being active, and the tooltip indicates that's still supposed to be the case. She's running red-line at the moment, so I suppose that could be part of the reason, but it still doesn't make any sense.

2) Some of the skills (especially Call of the Second Age) are out of sync--the mobs react/die before the animation fully kicks in. Granted, my mini is very good at what she does, but killing telekinetically is NOT supposed to be one of her talents as far as I know.

[Beaniemooch]

Been trying to keep an open mind as I level the minstrel. She's 93 now, and today accidentally ran into the 64k signature bear for a quest around Stoke. She was on foot and accidentally aggro'd him but managed to take him down - on foot - without losing more than 500 health. Anthem of the Wizards, a few critting war speech skills, and BAM there it is. She's still wearing all her 85 gear and using her 85 first agers too (including a healing book) and hasn't changed any jewelry.

Eight levels later and up to 61 total tree points, and I still haven't found anything useful outside of the red traitline. There are simply no skills worth putting points into blue or yellow line that make any difference to my playing. I've also noticed if I'm riding my horse on the landscape and engage a mob I'm now very likely to GET OFF the war horse to dps them down. Why? Because it's faster. Considering how OP I used to think minstrels were mounted (a cappy and I took down the 2.5m hp turtle by ourselves, neither of us breathing hard) it's odd to get off my horse to take on 27k mobs.

I don't know where balance will be for the minstrel. We need dps to be viable in big battles because there's no healing role in there, but the dps we have now feels very unbalanced. When doing solo instances where myself and a few NPCs engage multiple mobs I quickly grab aggro and tank even though I have 8800 hp and they have 60k, because I know I can dps them down before I lose too much health. It doesn't feel right. And 8 levels later I haven't had any need to drop Dissonance yet.

Summary for me is the minstrel just doesn't feel like a minstrel now. The dps is overwhelming to those of us who have played for a long time, and the lack of real individuality as a minstrel class (compared to being an RK or hunter or whatever) feel wrong. The way the class feels now I could be anything - there's nothing that makes me feel like a minstrel.

[Norwrei]

This is a bug! Rally was supposed to have been pulled off of players, but if you had the trait slotted when you logged into HD for the first time, you got to keep the skill. A fix should be going in for 12.1 which will make sure you can only have Rally when traited Blue.

Why take rally away? Even lore-masters still have back from the brink and cappies have their and I think rk's do too!

[Kalderic]

That's what I though too, but I've seen a few other people in the Instances subforum talk about being able to single target heal NPCs and Banners. I did one early test just to confirm the no-healing from Beta, and didn't see anything, but maybe it's a specific requirement/bug thing?

I have tried heals on the soldiers and found out that with single target heals you can heal them back up, but only to a certain point (about 75% morale) after which heals become ineffective.
I have successfully used this to save soldiers from certain death already.
I haven't tried healing banners with healskills.

[Gedrevn]

Two more issues:

1) Is anyone else noticing that Call of Orome stays on regardless of stance? It's always been dependent on War-Speech being active, and the tooltip indicates that's still supposed to be the case. She's running red-line at the moment, so I suppose that could be part of the reason, but it still doesn't make any sense.

Skills are now trait line dependent, not stance dependent. Stances will alter some skills and gate outgoing healing, but they don't affect skill availability.

I have tried heals on the soldiers and found out that with single target heals you can heal them back up, but only to a certain point (about 75% morale) after which heals become ineffective.
I have successfully used this to save soldiers from certain death already.
I haven't tried healing banners with healskills.

I did a few Helm's Dike runs yesterday and was completely unable to heal any NPC in any stance or any Big Battle Trait Line. I didn't specifically target NPC's below 75%, so I'll double check that next time.

I'm sorry, but big battles make my main class role redundant-no one gets hurt. My secondary role as dps is ok i guess, but if i wanted aoe dps i'd be taking a LM, fire RK or champ-all of whom can outdo minstrel damage.[B][I] I've not seen a single 'need heals' in GLFF since the update.

Definitely running into the same thing. Works out since I mostly play with friends who don't mind the minstrel gimpiness as much, but especially with the prominence of Big Battles, not really needing to heal pretty much just makes us a less useful version of anyone who can DPS.

[Calta]

Been trying to keep an open mind as I level the minstrel. She's 93 now, and today accidentally ran into the 64k signature bear for a quest around Stoke. She was on foot and accidentally aggro'd him but managed to take him down - on foot - without losing more than 500 health. Anthem of the Wizards, a few critting war speech skills, and BAM there it is. She's still wearing all her 85 gear and using her 85 first agers too (including a healing book) and hasn't changed any jewelry.

Eight levels later and up to 61 total tree points, and I still haven't found anything useful outside of the red traitline. There are simply no skills worth putting points into blue or yellow line that make any difference to my playing. I've also noticed if I'm riding my horse on the landscape and engage a mob I'm now very likely to GET OFF the war horse to dps them down. Why? Because it's faster. Considering how OP I used to think minstrels were mounted (a cappy and I took down the 2.5m hp turtle by ourselves, neither of us breathing hard) it's odd to get off my horse to take on 27k mobs.

I don't know where balance will be for the minstrel. We need dps to be viable in big battles because there's no healing role in there, but the dps we have now feels very unbalanced. When doing solo instances where myself and a few NPCs engage multiple mobs I quickly grab aggro and tank even though I have 8800 hp and they have 60k, because I know I can dps them down before I lose too much health. It doesn't feel right. And 8 levels later I haven't had any need to drop Dissonance yet.

Summary for me is the minstrel just doesn't feel like a minstrel now. The dps is overwhelming to those of us who have played for a long time, and the lack of real individuality as a minstrel class (compared to being an RK or hunter or whatever) feel wrong. The way the class feels now I could be anything - there's nothing that makes me feel like a minstrel.

I've been all red until tonight.

Finally go to try healing fully in blue with my warden buddy-duod warg pens at 87-he was 86. we are both in our crafted stuff and second agers from before update- swapped in some boots and hat from quest drop for some finesse. It was Very easy. But didn't feel smooth. Just op. Used melody without respeccing for some bits and warspeech for others. Harmony (healing) feels lumpy and very op-i'd bubble him and me and run back with 4 wargs as he got the first group down-rinse and repeat. Only really needed heals properly at last boss fight. I took almost no damage except once, due to the loss of aggro from symultaneous stuns as i bought 4 wargs to him and stun remove being greyed out, but i just potted and hit ts on him and then bc both back to full morale. That was as exciting as it got.He had no aggro problems even when we tried me full tilt spam healing.

Like Beanie and Wiser, I am doing all landscape quest battles on foot- i am doing double the damge i am on war-horse. 4 mobs (yellow or orange) were easy. only problem is whenthey run away!

BBs are still a problem for minis for reasons outlined. Tried one with 86 warden and got a gold for saving horses but we needed to work on that combination more. Then he switched to 87 hunter and i switched to my level 27 fire RK-levelled through crafting mostly. RK was awaesome. I may be playing her in BB and Yva on landscape and quests for a while. Hunter went vanguard and was still having trouble killing stuff before npcs. But we saved the statue. (My first succes with that.) Levelled from 27 Fire rk was taking trolls down as fast as fully kitted 87 hunter and also taking no damage at all.

DPS balance is going to be a problem for minis-need to be champ like in BBs to be competitive with RKs etc and yet nerfed for landscape.

[Earenya]

I dunno. The Minstrel is boring now. I'm not sure what it is. Too many skills split up and put across too many trait trees. Red line is okay for soloing but again, I don't get big damage output largely because Im undergeared. It's fine though. It's just that the skills are boring now. A couple of clicks and the mob is dead and move on to the next set. To me, healing on the minnie was a combination of what is in the yellow and blue lines. Not either or. Taking things like CtG and other skills out and then making blue line OP just have made the Minstrel, I don't know, Not a minstrel. I do understand lore-wise there's not a lot of dungeon/boss fights they can put in HD. Still, a healer isn't necessary at all in BB's so I'm not sure what the point is. I'm hoping maybe the minnie gets some different skills and a rework down the road. They need it.

I can' explain it properly. It's just not a good class right now as far as play.

I really like my alts a lot. The LM is fine, the Hunter is fine. the Minnie, not so much and I can't exactly put my finger on it. It just isn't fun to play anymore. I don't feel that way about the other classes. (I haven't tried my warden).

[Earenya]

This is a bug! Rally was supposed to have been pulled off of players, but if you had the trait slotted when you logged into HD for the first time, you got to keep the skill. A fix should be going in for 12.1 which will make sure you can only have Rally when traited Blue.

Only having Rally traited Blue is a mistake. It really should be a general skill. Lots of us group in Dissonance Stance and even if we are duoing we can use it if our fellow goes down. I think the Devs need to reconsider that. IT's not an OP skill by any means on it's own and is on a CD so having it available to all trait lines shouldn't be an issue.

[Gedrevn]

Only having Rally traited Blue is a mistake. It really should be a general skill. Lots of us group in Dissonance Stance and even if we are duoing we can use it if our fellow goes down. I think the Devs need to reconsider that. IT's not an OP skill by any means on it's own and is on a CD so having it available to all trait lines shouldn't be an issue.

Not to continuing beating a dead horse, but ^ this.

It's one thing to say you want players to be forced to make decisions about the different trait lines. It's another, ridiculously awful thing entirely to take an essential skill and lock it into 1 trait line so that minstrels have ZERO choice on what line they have to choose if they want to group or raid.