Player Guide: Class Changes Summary: Captain

[Almagnus1]

Looking at the traits, would it make sense to sacrifice FB for additional DPS traits?

What about going yellow instead of blue for the splash?

[aardnebby]

I must admit to being impressed by recent damage parses, I apologise for my earlier irritation. I have not been able to get Turtle DPS parses from other classes in my raid group mainly due to the time of year, but will keep working on it.

To take a more detailed look at the makeup of our DPS:

1. It is apparent that Heightened Allies is basically worthless. Let me break it down as to why (all figures are approximate):

A red line captain is capable of 2.5-4k sustained DPS. A herald of war (adding 2% to the captain) gains approximately 40 dps with 2 points in it, an archer double that but without the 2% bonus to the captain. 2 points saved and put into Dignified Spectacle boosts the captains personal DPS AND outgoing healing by 1% (25-40 dps) without the costs of a herald (Micromanaging targets, accidental aggro etc), as you can simply leave your herald of war in passive mode, maybe clicking it for a self heal occasionally or triggering it when you have time.

This confirms an earlier post in the beta forums I made where I pointed out the only way "hybrid" builds are going to be efficient is if a trait is so bad that two points in it are worth less than 1 point in an out of line trait. Personally I am not complaining, I still think that turning the captain into a pet class is an awful idea.

2. In long fights bleeds represent a significant portion of our damage, in short fights we can only hope for crits.

More reliable short fight damage is needed to compare favorably with other classes who produce more consistent DPS (I am getting 1-1.5k if no big crits, 4 or so with a crit).

[Elrantiri]

I must admit to being impressed by recent damage parses, I apologise for my earlier irritation. I have not been able to get Turtle DPS parses from other classes in my raid group mainly due to the time of year, but will keep working on it.

There's not much to apologize for though, 12.1 has added a lot of DPS to the Captain by buffing Martial Prowess + Standard of War and fixing Master of War autocrits. Those three changes (well mostly Martial + MoW) have made the Captain a lot more useful for DPS. A 12.0 parse on Nornuan would have been more like 3k DPS if even that much.

1. It is apparent that Heightened Allies is basically worthless. Let me break it down as to why (all figures are approximate):

It is useless at endgame at least, at lower levels some players are reporting rather good numbers, and my Snowbourn Captain is 49 and in Moria, Herald archer does almost same DPS as at 85-95.

2. In long fights bleeds represent a significant portion of our damage, in short fights we can only hope for crits.

More reliable short fight damage is needed to compare favorably with other classes who produce more consistent DPS (I am getting 1-1.5k if no big crits, 4 or so with a crit).

Indeed. As for being reliant on crits it's business as usual for the Captain IMO. The effects of crits have just been made even stronger in Helms Deep.

Looking at the traits, would it make sense to sacrifice FB for additional DPS traits?

What about going yellow instead of blue for the splash?

Well looking at my own trait setup I only see one thing to go for, which would be to scrap my 2 traits in powercost and 2 from FB then grab Gallant Display in HoH. Gallant does fine damage and has low cooldown, so that could be useful.

As for the +10% bleed I actually don't think so, unless you want some of the survivability from LoM. HoH gives you +6% melee damage on crits and +4% melee damage from spectacle, so I would expect most bleeds (especially autobleeds) to do almost the same damage + you'll have 4-10% more damage on your other melee skills. You'd also have some extra outgoing healing which is nice.

[Elrantiri]

Some additional parses:

First boss NCF 95T2, 5300DPS: http://imageshack.us/a/img850/7005/5g07.jpg
First boss STH 95T2, 4100DPS: http://imageshack.us/a/img607/7619/kzj2.jpg
Challenge trash pull School 95, 8500DPS (picture from midfight though, 2 archers still alive) http://imageshack.us/a/img30/1538/5q5h.jpg
Last Boss Seat of the Great Goblin 95T2, 3600DPS: http://imageshack.us/a/img19/8495/8qnr.jpg
First boss Iorbars Peak 95T2, 4800DPS: http://imageshack.us/a/img13/2927/zxj8.jpg

[enginekid88]

I would also like to see a video, but more for instructional purposes than anything else.

Yes, the screenshots leave much to be desired.

[Almagnus1]

Yes, the screenshots leave much to be desired.

To be quite honest, I think it's pretty appalling that you are doubting what Elrantiri is saying.

I do not doubt that RockX has given us the tools to be able to rub shoulders with the DPS classes, and I appreciate the lengths Elrantiri has gone to show us what he's doing, as that will be a great benefit to other captains.

[aardnebby]

To be quite honest, I think it's pretty appalling that you are doubting what Elrantiri is saying.

I do not doubt that RockX has given us the tools to be able to rub shoulders with the DPS classes, and I appreciate the lengths Elrantiri has gone to show us what he's doing, as that will be a great benefit to other captains.

To be fair, I hope you note there is a direct correlation between shorter fights and higher dps. As shown, captains burst dps can be high but very dependent on the RNG. All of the screens show a total number of crits of 28%+, one as high as 50%, so clearly the random number generator was helping a little here (not that I accuse anyone of

This is why the solo turtle works well, it allows a long fight, with decent mitigations considering its low level that won't kill a solo player in a short time.

Further, there was a minstrel in the group, whos DPS buffs are not inconsiderable. And they can buff while healing and DPSing and doing more than us in both of those roles, but hey we all knew they are OP.

[enginekid88]

To be quite honest, I think it's pretty appalling that you are doubting what Elrantiri is saying.

I don't care what you think but i'll respond

Anyone can fight various mobs and get various dps parses. But that's useless for comparisons of all classes DPS against one another.

All classes must lay down a DPS parse from THE SAME TARGET so that everyone can be judged equally against each other.

It's useless for a cappy to fight a turtle and show us a parse, then in a champ forum, a champ was fighting an orc, or whatever.

It doesn't matter that the lvl 85 dummy gives lower numbers, all that matters is every class can easily and simply go to snowbourne and fight that dummy.

The numbers will then all be equal against the exact same target so we can compare all classes equally and truly know where cappies stand against the other classes.

The training dummy is the best to use because it's right there in town and totally convenient.

And a video is much better so we can also see the skill rotation being used and we can see whether they have any buffs they shouldn't have.

[Elrantiri]

To be fair, I hope you note there is a direct correlation between shorter fights and higher dps. As shown, captains burst dps can be high but very dependent on the RNG. All of the screens show a total number of crits of 28%+, one as high as 50%, so clearly the random number generator was helping a little here (not that I accuse anyone of

Well, my base crit is 27.9% with Relentless, BoE has extra crit chance, DB/PA/RoutC has 5% extra and since I usually use Master of War autocrit on Grave Wound (which ensures ALL the ticks crit), having 28% crit or more is normal. Of course there's a luck element to whether or not your Inspire or SL crits so you can get GW crit, once that one is in place your crit chance is bound to be high.
Of course I should have taken a screen of it, but from an hour or more of playing (e.g. BG T2HM), my crit chance for the full run is well over 30%.

Of course Minstrel buffs has a nice effect with CotSA and AoW and so on but even their buffs surely are limited. CotSA is what, 10%, Coda is 5% and AoW is 15%? Even if you substract 25-30% of the DPS from the parses (which would be overkill because the buffs are far from 100% uptime), the 3man parses are still quite good.

I don't care what you think but i'll respond

Anyone can fight various mobs and get various dps parses. But that's useless for comparisons of all classes DPS against one another.

All classes must lay down a DPS parse from THE SAME TARGET so that everyone can be judged equally against each other.

It's useless for a cappy to fight a turtle and show us a parse, then in a champ forum, a champ was fighting an orc, or whatever.

It doesn't matter that the lvl 85 dummy gives lower numbers, all that matters is every class can easily and simply go to snowbourne and fight that dummy.

The numbers will then all be equal against the exact same target so we can compare all classes equally and truly know where cappies stand against the other classes.

The training dummy is the best to use because it's right there in town and totally convenient.

And a video is much better so we can also see the skill rotation being used and we can see whether they have any buffs they shouldn't have.

Ah right... I keep forgetting how immensely difficult and timeconsuming it is to find the Turtle and have a go at him. If only there was some kind of instance finder that'd allow you to get in there right away.

As for parses (dummy or not) from other classes feel free to link some, I've not been able to find much and none of them were Snowbourn parses except for 1 (and that was a Captain without CombatAnalysis)

Lore-master: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...-master-parses



Warden: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...21#post7022021



All of them are Nornuan/Filikul parses. You may need to reload the page (F5 or CTRL+F5) to see the pictures.

Also, if you look at this Google image search: https://www.google.dk/search?q=lotro...5%3B1600%3B900
There seems to be a lot more parses in Galtrev than in snowbourn.

[DelgonTheWise]

I
It doesn't matter that the lvl 85 dummy gives lower numbers, all that matters is every class can easily and simply go to snowbourne and fight that dummy.

The numbers will then all be equal against the exact same target so we can compare all classes equally and truly know where cappies stand against the other classes.

Doesn't work for classes that depend on bleeds, DOTs, marks, etc. AKA doesn't work -- dummies are bad parse targets because they wipe/reset. Turtle is a good choice. Easier to get to than Snowborne (instance join panel is everywhere), enough morale to get a good long parse in, etc.

Thanks for the highly useful posts Elantiri, informative contributions to the forums are much appreciated by me and I suspect most others.

[Elrantiri]

Thanks for the highly useful posts Elantiri, informative contributions to the forums are much appreciated by me and I suspect most others.

You're welcome, and hopefully this overview will be even more useful https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...rike-Mechanics

[Farothrana]

Some impressive work Mera, keep it up.

enginekid88 looking more and more foolish as the thread goes on, time to give it up?

[enginekid88]

As for parses (dummy or not) from other classes feel free to link some, I've not been able to find much and none of them were Snowbourn parses except for 1 (and that was a Captain without CombatAnalysis)

So whats the point of parsing you captain and saying that they deal great dps when you haven't seen any parses from other classes to compare them? How can anyone say Captains do good enough DPS when as you say there aren't any parses to compare yours to?

[Elrantiri]

So whats the point of parsing you captain and saying that they deal great dps when you haven't seen any parses from other classes to compare them? How can anyone say Captains do good enough DPS when as you say there aren't any parses to compare yours to?

How do you interpret "Haven't seen much" to "haven't seen any parses"? The very post you're quoting has parses from other classes in it. Wake up.

When I say Captains have good dps (don't remember ever saying great DPS), it's based on the content we have at the moment. Captain DPS is plenty to cut through the mobs in landscape, instances and raids. When you combine that with our powerful buffs I simply don't see what else we'd need when it comes to DPS.

EDIT: Also, I'll ask you to bring some parses from other classes, especially given one of your previous posts:

RK's have high dps when dps traited

LM's have high dps when dps traited
Burgs have high dps when dps traited
Wardens have high dps when dps traited
Champs have high dps when dps traited
Minstrels have high dps when dps traited
Guardians have ??? dps when dps traited
Captains have low dps when dps traited

You have yet to show anything that backs up this post. "How can anyone say Captains are not doing good enough DPS when as you say there aren't any parses to compare yours to?"

[Elrantiri]

Nornuan video:


About same DPS as last time, sadly the devastate % was quite a bit worse on this parse. However, Bleed pulses legacy (which I didn't have last time) helped keep up crit % and DPS with Grave Wound being about 25% of my damage.

[enginekid88]

About same DPS as last time, sadly the devastate % was quite a bit worse on this parse. However, Bleed pulses legacy (which I didn't have last time) helped keep up crit % and DPS with Grave Wound being about 25% of my damage.

That was excellent.

Now all we need is videos of all eight other classes fighting this Turtle so we can see their DPS and then truly know how Captains compare.

Even better would be to find a level 95 enemy to fight since Turtle is lvl 60? Then not only would we know where captains stand but we would have a better understanding of everyone's damage against lvl 95 enemies.


Perhaps try BG? Enter instance and two mobs are right there, they both have 200K morale and are lvl 95. Have a tank hold one while the classes fight the other. (maybe there is a better instance)

[Elrantiri]

Now all we need is videos

No, there's no 'we need' here. There is only you and your appearent needs of seeing videos.Make them yourself.

I'm perfectly fine with Captains being the class with the lowest personal DPS as long as their DPS is good (which it is) and when Captains also have so many buffs for the group.

[enginekid88]

I'm perfectly fine with Captains being the class with the lowest personal DPS

Seems odd that you would feel that way since you are the one fixating on your Captains dps by constantly recording and parsing it. A player that doesn't think or care about his DPS doesn't do multiple parses.

[Elrantiri]

Seems odd that you would feel that way since you are the one fixating on your Captains dps by constantly recording and parsing it. A player that doesn't think or care about his DPS doesn't do multiple parses.

Being fine with being lowest on DPS doesn't mean being fine with any DPS. If Captains could only do 1.5-2.5k or less DPS I'd ask for boosts to DPS.

Also, constantly recording? I've recorded three parses, about 20 minutes video, that is hardly constantly.

[Almagnus1]

Seems odd that you would feel that way since you are the one fixating on your Captains dps by constantly recording and parsing it. A player that doesn't think or care about his DPS doesn't do multiple parses.

In all fairness, you are asking him(her? it?) for more parses and what not.

[enginekid88]

In all fairness, you are asking him(her? it?) for more parses and what not.

i entered this thread way late. He's the parser that is all concerned about his cappy dps so much so that he parses it and posts it. i merely asked for a video....

[Elrantiri]

i entered this thread way late. He's the parser that is all concerned about his cappy dps so much so that he parses it and posts it. i merely asked for a video....

Well you sure entered the thread without reading the posts then. I posted the Nornuan picture because aardnebby was asking for some proof that I've told him I would give him:

Sorry Enginekid, El Ranti cant seem to provide any proof of his own (still waiting on his DPS parses).

Afterwards, DelgonTheWise wrote he'd like to see the skill breakdown tab and Almagnus1 wrote he'd like to see a video:

It would be much more civil to ask just how they did it though (I'd be interested in the skill breakdown tab myself).

I would also like to see a video, but more for instructional purposes than anything else.

Therefore I made a video with Nornuan showing both the fight and the breakdown tab.

You (enginekid) have also asked for video, but given you've been acting like a kid (which I guess I should have seen coming given your nickname), I can't be bothered to help you out. Also, I and others have given several good reasons why the video you are asking for is useless.

[enginekid88]

Well you sure

You don't need to explain yourself.

[Almagnus1]

@Elrantiri: From what you've seen, can you give a rough percentage of the DPS we're doing compared to the top end DPS classes?

[Elrantiri]

@Elrantiri: From what you've seen, can you give a rough percentage of the DPS we're doing compared to the top end DPS classes?

It depends so much on the fight, some classes excel at AoE/Singletarget etc. Some of my parses like http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/9392/tu1a.jpg suggests Captains sometimes are at the very top of DPS and other times it feels like the other classes is doing really good DPS (especially blade-brothered players). Also, I've mostly been playing in pugs since my kinship is dead (not that pugs means noobs, but I had some awesome DPSers in kin who are not playing anymore). I also think many players are still trying to get used to the new skills, trait trees etc. and thus not doing as much DPS now as they will in a month or two.
So far I'd say our DPS is very close to the other classes with few exceptions (I've seen a champ parse with 36k dps for 5 seconds, RKs critting 25-35k+ and Hunters crit 50k with one skill, Captains can't really compare with that kind of burst).