Player Guide: Class Changes Summary: Captain

[Dylbro]

This thread turning into a DPS argument is a great example of how far the Captain has fallen. Truly if you are worrying about DPS parsing on a captain you really have no idea how to play the class and have done a great disservice in regards to how the captain has been shaped of late.

[Elrantiri]

This thread turning into a DPS argument is a great example of how far the Captain has fallen. Truly if you are worrying about DPS parsing on a captain you really have no idea how to play the class and have done a great disservice in regards to how the captain has been shaped of late.

You seem absolutely clueless as to what happened in Beta if you're blaming the players for how the Captain turned out. The fundamental changes such as Specializations and Trait Trees were set in stone way before the Beta even started and the Beta was about making the best of those changes. You've repeatedly explained you're unhappy about the fundmental changes made to Captains and while you're obviously welcome to be unhappy about it, blaming other players is uncalled for.

[Almagnus1]

This thread turning into a DPS argument is a great example of how far the Captain has fallen. Truly if you are worrying about DPS parsing on a captain you really have no idea how to play the class and have done a great disservice in regards to how the captain has been shaped of late.

Without reverting back to the way things were, how would you tweak the existing system to make it better?

[Elrantiri]

Few things for RockX (not sure if they are to be considered bugs so haven't /bugged them):

• It's a bit annoying that both buffs from Master of War (the autocrit from Inspire+SL and the crit rating buff from Standard of War) have the same name (though mostly because I use certain plugins). I'd appreciate if they had seperate names.
• The tooltip for Master of War set bonus says Standard of War grants a "Critical Rating buff" but you're getting a % buff rather than a Rating buff (getting a % buff rather than Rating is much appreciated though :P )
• I still have no clue what the +3% Defence from LoM Tactics does.
• The window where you pick specialization still describes "Sure Strike has a chance to bestow..." even though I bugged it several times. The chance element was removed way back in Beta
• The proc heal description (same window as the Sure Strike thing) in HoH is a bit vague, doesn't specify is it is only applied to you, your target or whole fellowship. I'm not even sure the heal procs at all (already /bugged).
• Oathbreakers Shame seems to consume Master of War autocrit (MoW critbuff describes "Next Melee or Ranged skill will crit" while Oathies is described as a Tactical skill) (already /bugged)
• React to Battle (first tier LtC trait) describes that Light of Elendil gets up to +10% damage and +5% critical chance. Is this intended or is it a bug in line with the Light of Elendil legacy back in Beta?

[aardnebby]

Without reverting back to the way things were, how would you tweak the existing system to make it better?

1. Remove the double cost out of spec penalty? (yes yes, I know they said it wasnt gonna happen)

2. Make a stance where the captain radiate the herald buffs and increase his DPS by the amount the herald grants, but disables the herald for use in group content where you don't want the stupid thing either dying, aggroing the wrong thing, or otherwise getting in the way and you have someone better to put x-brother on. (yes yes, I know I know, the captain is now a pet class whether we like it or not)

3. Make the x-brother skills and tactics variants general rather than trait line specific (yeah, I got the memo on this one too).

Oh wait basically all the recommendations I have made have been shot down already. That's why I haven't come up with a better suggestion.

[Almagnus1]

2. Make a stance where the captain radiate the herald buffs and increase his DPS by the amount the herald grants, but disables the herald for use in group content where you don't want the stupid thing either dying, aggroing the wrong thing, or otherwise getting in the way and you have someone better to put x-brother on. (yes yes, I know I know, the captain is now a pet class whether we like it or not)

Passive + Assist + DPS target assist = win

Not that hard mate.

[aardnebby]

Passive + Assist + DPS target assist = win

Not that hard mate.

Assuming you aren't the one pulling ofc, then the issue is when you pull a mob, the herald then runs to it, aggroing anything nearby.

EDIT: not to mention the fights where you need to stop dpsing a target for a while for various reasons (they get a heal on hit buff or two mobs need to be kept at equal morale or whatever)

[Almagnus1]

Assuming you aren't the one pulling ofc, then the issue is when you pull a mob, the herald then runs to it, aggroing anything nearby.

EDIT: not to mention the fights where you need to stop dpsing a target for a while for various reasons (they get a heal on hit buff or two mobs need to be kept at equal morale or whatever)

Then go manual with it.

Keep the herald on passive, turn off assist, and use the herald's attack and follow skill to control whenit attacks.

You can also click and drag the skills to your main skill area.

[Erandred]

I am kind of confused by what this discussion turns out to be - a how to max dps on the Cappy.

IMHO, playing a Captain is about making the group stronger, not max your direct impact. If a captain manages to increase their dps boost to the group by a single percent this will most likely count for more than increasing the damage dealt by themselves by 10 times this percentage.

As Cappy you can be an ok substitute for a tank, dd and sometimes the Heal, but what you really contribute is that everybody is taking less damage while dealing more and dealing and receiving more Heal. Thus you more than make up for what you lack in direct effectiveness.

Secondary is the ability to jump into any gap (heal, tank, dd) for a short time or to some extend (heal) thus saving the group. The latter has suffered somewhat now, as you pretty much have to decide beforehand what kind of role may need the most substantial support and Trait accordingly. But if traited the Cappy feels more effective in any of the three, most notably when in yellow. I don't really have hard data on that, only my gut feeling from playing my main quite intensely over the last three years.

However, coming from my attitude towards the cappy's role what I would be interested in: has anybody cared to think about how to trait the captain best for max effect on their fellowship? That's what would contribute to the utility we get out of and thus ultimately fun we'll have when in groups with our captains

[Elrantiri]

IMHO, playing a Captain is about making the group stronger, not max your direct impact. If a captain manages to increase their dps boost to the group by a single percent this will most likely count for more than increasing the damage dealt by themselves by 10 times this percentage.

I don't see why they should be exclusive from one another. When I DPS I still use all the buffs whenever I find them to be useful for the fight (for the whole group, not just for me) with the main goal of making myself AND my group deal as much damage as possible.
There's also the solo aspect where you don't have a group to buff, that's where you might want to get as much personal DPS as possible.

However, coming from my attitude towards the cappy's role what I would be interested in: has anybody cared to think about how to trait the captain best for max effect on their fellowship? That's what would contribute to the utility we get out of and thus ultimately fun we'll have when in groups with our captains

That depends on what you consider max effect.
In terms of group damage, going LtC and getting Rousing Cry (in HoH tree), Penetrating Cry, Standard of War, Fellowship of the Blade and Oathbreaker's Shame is IMO the traits you should get.

[ssslippy]

However, coming from my attitude towards the cappy's role what I would be interested in: has anybody cared to think about how to trait the captain best for max effect on their fellowship? That's what would contribute to the utility we get out of and thus ultimately fun we'll have when in groups with our captains

There is only so much you can do really trait into to improve your group in the current setup. Most of it comes from just normally going down the tree. The things I can think of to improve your group is to make sure you have the 5% damage on rallying and the 15% attack speed on your shout. The reality is the more I crit in red the more damage I do and the more I can throw boosted effects from defeat responses. This in effect increases my own DPS while boosting my groups. Keeping up your sure strike buff will also boost your group. I personally run Vocal Skill Healing and Rallying Cry Healing on my DPS seal just because I felt this was an effective way to boost my groups healing while still doing damage. To arms duration is also a very effective legacy to help boost the group.

Obviously running blue will provide the largest boost to your group in heals.

[aardnebby]

Then go manual with it.

Keep the herald on passive, turn off assist, and use the herald's attack and follow skill to control whenit attacks.

You can also click and drag the skills to your main skill area.

It still aggros mobs while on follow, still has pathing issues both to attack close by and distant mobs and dies regularly requiring re-summoning.

My opinion is still that the herald (apart from being personally annoying) is an attempt at spreading the captain too thinly. We are a tank/heal/buff class AND a pet class? From what I understand the pet is basically being forced on us because Turbine wants all the skills being used, and we can't use x-brother when solo without a pet. After all, pre helms deep how many posts did you see saying "buff heralds, make them viable again, I hate banners!"

EDIT:

And no matter what you do, it seems impossible to give your whole group the pet buff unless they literally bundle right on top of it, due to short range of aura and the way it runs after mobs and never stands in the right place *sigh*

EDIT2:

And because the buff aura is from your pet rather than yourself, unless you turn on show all buffs you cannot even see who has the aura. And with show all buffs it's a nightmare to find the right one!

[Erandred]

Thanks for the quick replies, already git some good clues, e.g. would not have gone for the HoH cry trait when on red, rather for LoM bleeds and morale.

I don't see why they should be exclusive from one another. When I DPS I still use all the buffs whenever I find them to be useful for the fight (for the whole group, not just for me) with the main goal of making myself AND my group deal as much damage as possible.

I agree, personal and group dps go hand in hand to 95%, however maxing the last 5% fo your personal DPS will probably be less efficient for the group than expanding your buff capabilities. That is the difference I would make vs. prior posters. When judging a traits efficiency always have the oportunity cost in terms of group utility in mind, not the second best alternative for the captain personally.

There's also the solo aspect where you don't have a group to buff, that's where you might want to get as much personal DPS as possible.

Most certainly there is. It is not what I see as the reason for being, especially in the endgame. Moreover everybody got so much power lately that it is hardly worth breaking your head about solo dps from my point of view.
My feeling is more like many Cappies want to show off their dps vs. the damage-only classes in the group. That is what hunters and champs need to do to justify their being part of a group, or even more so DD Guardians (or most think it is, while it is more important even for those classes to fit into the group) but certainly not for the captain.
Just point to everybodies morale/power bars and damage output boosting when you are close around and everybody will be happy to be with you. A hint here and there to a special benefit you granted your blade brother (or now usually the entire group) or a battle rezz in due time and you can't possibly fail to be the hero of the group much more often than most other classes, with the possible expception of the minstrel and an oustanding tank - if the groups even realize and apreciate their performance.
That's what is the real fun about playing the captain for me.

[Lohi]

It still aggros mobs while on follow, still has pathing issues both to attack close by and distant mobs and dies regularly requiring re-summoning.

Hmm, I haven't seen these problems really. As for aggro, that's up to the captain to deal with, it works identically to lore-master. If the pet has fallen behind then use the instant Rally! skill to get it to your side (I wish more captains/lms in Sambrog knew to do this). I've only seen mine die a few times, and then only in tough battles. If it is defeated, then it's not a problem in any way, just resummon one or do without until battle is over. Has anyone wiped over this occurring?

We were a pet class from day one of this game. Banners were added as an afterthought, the herald was the original. Most people used herald until they hit 50 or so anyway.

Put the herald on passive so that it is next to you all the time, and you know those near you get the buffs. Or tell your herald to stand in a particular spot.

[aardnebby]

Hmm, I haven't seen these problems really. As for aggro, that's up to the captain to deal with, it works identically to lore-master. If the pet has fallen behind then use the instant Rally! skill to get it to your side (I wish more captains/lms in Sambrog knew to do this). I've only seen mine die a few times, and then only in tough battles. If it is defeated, then it's not a problem in any way, just resummon one or do without until battle is over. Has anyone wiped over this occurring?

Good for you. I am aware of the Rally! skill, but as a quality of play enhancement it should not be needed (if not in combat and distance to captain exceeds x then use rally automatically). I doubt anyone is wiping at all right now due to the issues with balance. I decided to give the herald a chance on Iobars Peak. I had to res it 3 or 4 times. In one 3 man instance. I have pug hunters that need less assistance!

We were a pet class from day one of this game. Banners were added as an afterthought, the herald was the original. Most people used herald until they hit 50 or so anyway.

Yeah and on day one of this game we had access to things we don't have now. Words of Courage could be used to heal yourself for example. And the herald sucked back then too (more so than now even) and was banned in many groups due to the issues they caused.

Put the herald on passive so that it is next to you all the time, and you know those near you get the buffs. Or tell your herald to stand in a particular spot.

And then we lose the herald DPS (small as it is). It's like saying "sure strike is bugged so now it gives the tactics buffs when you DONT hit things with it, so just don't use sure strike and everyone will get the buff just fine".

One of the wonderful and terrible things about this community is how willing many are to create work arounds for issues. It's great because it shows enthusiasm and love for the game, but it's bad when trying to provide honest feedback about bits of the game that need improvement (or alternatives).

[Lohi]

One of the wonderful and terrible things about this community is how willing many are to create work arounds for issues

But the herald is a big improvement. It's an improvement over the original herald, and it's an improvement over choosing between banner or herald, and it's an improvement over a banner alone. So ya, it is an improvement. The problem that you are having is not with the herald but with no longer having the old style banner, which is a reasonable gripe, but put the blame where it is due.

[aardnebby]

But the herald is a big improvement. It's an improvement over the original herald, and it's an improvement over choosing between banner or herald, and it's an improvement over a banner alone. So ya, it is an improvement. The problem that you are having is not with the herald but with no longer having the old style banner, which is a reasonable gripe, but put the blame where it is due.

I disagree. It is an improvement over previous heralds, but not over choice between banner and herald. As for banner alone, that would be a personal preference thing, personally if the two were of equal value I would use the banner most of the time (but not always).

I concede we are basically stuck with the herald, which is why I have tried to make suggestions as to how we could improve the herald.

EG have Rally! trigger automatically once the herald falls behind far enough if not in combat.

EG pointing out the heralds so called immunity to "most" AoE effects does not extend to the last boss of Iorbars Peak, and is frankly more trouble than its worth keeping it alive there, and suggesting maybe some change could be made. (This is one example, I don't have others to hand).

EG pointing out that pathing is still an issue in places (such as Big Battle instances)

EG requesting we could summon while running (like we could with a banner) as being forced to stand still to summon is annoying

And a new one:
If the captain receives a run speed buff, could it copy to the herald, so it doesn't fall behind in the first place? (Such as Coffee, or the various hobbit present run speed buffs)

[Almagnus1]

Is the same true for LM pets?

[ssslippy]

Is the same true for LM pets?

The one thing I have noticed about LM pets vs the herald is their HP. Also the LM has a whole trait line dedicated to their pet so its hard to compare. All we get is our 40% damage for our herald. The big issue I see right now is how much damage the Herald can take. I was in sword hall and pet was taking 3k from the troll while I barely get scratched.

Also on the herald keeping up part they really should have the heralds base speed faster then the captain. This is usually an efficient way other games keep AI companions up with their player. You can set a slightly higher speed of 10-15% so the herald does not move an insanely odd speed and it will keep up while doing its maneuvering it needs to do with AI path finding. I honestly believe fixing the path finding in the game will be near impossible but this is an easily solution.

[Almagnus1]

What do you have in the ranged slot?

[ssslippy]

What do you have in the ranged slot?

I have my banner in my ranged slot. From what I understand the armament needs to be equipped for the bonus and summoning with it only changes the look.

[Lohi]

I have my banner in my ranged slot. From what I understand the armament needs to be equipped for the bonus and summoning with it only changes the look.

Hmm, really? Any way to verify this? If true I could use some lower level stuff (oathbreaker), but it also means that it's pointless to even make the higher level armaments.

[Almagnus1]

I have my banner in my ranged slot. From what I understand the armament needs to be equipped for the bonus and summoning with it only changes the look.

Can you make high level armaments, slot those (and keep 'em slotted) then run the instance again to see if that helps with the herald survivability?

[aardnebby]

I am not sure if I should feel amused or irritated about how when I say something almagnus always has doubts. Maybe I am regarded as some kind of nay-sayer or hater. Still, as long as the issues get recognised when someone else posts, or get quietly patched away in the background without fanfare I couldn't care less. I just want the captain to be in a better place than it currently is.

Outstanding issues:

Short buff range of auras

Poor herald performance (various)

Lack of flexibility in x-brother skills


Not captain specific:

Classes split into 3 traitlines, only 2 specs unlocked for VIPs, blatant money grab here.

Destiny points removed and never replaced despite sapience saying a new system was in the works.



Did I miss anything?

[Almagnus1]

I am not sure if I should feel amused or irritated about how when I say something almagnus always has doubts. Maybe I am regarded as some kind of nay-sayer or hater. Still, as long as the issues get recognised when someone else posts, or get quietly patched away in the background without fanfare I couldn't care less. I just want the captain to be in a better place than it currently is.

Touching on the doubt side of things, after seeing how you have been basically railing on the class and fighting any and all changes to it since HD B2, even after it took several turns for the better with each additional update, it quickly gave the feeling that your mindset was basically "it changed now it sucks", rather than "how can we make this better?". That my desktop fried itself in late November, and my laptop can't effectively do LotRO, isn't helping with the **ARG** factor here.

Going back to the armaments, I've wondered if the lack of herald armor on the banners aren't a pretty major factor with the perception that heralds are flimsy. IMO, we need to have a complete cycle of items (like the warden carvings) that allow us to give a specific herald bonus with a specific banner bonus.

As far as DPS goes, the herald should be on par with the skirmish soldiers IMO. That basically means that heralds do meh DPS, but the trait does +uber DPS for the archers and +almostAsUber DPS for the heralds.