A Letter from Executive Producer Aaron Campbell

[Sapience]

But they could roll back to the old system and just admit that the new one was a failed experiment .

I can answer this as definitely as I did during beta. The Trait trees system is not being removed or rolled back. Period.
(Someone did call out that we should be more direct, clear, and leave no room for misunderstanding, right?)

[Thornglen]

Been playing since a month or so after launch, but have barely played since October because of the horrible new trait system for skills. I do know that lots of people like this new system, but a higher percentage of those I know dislike it with a passion - is there any way to make it an option to use the old system? A VIP-only TP purchase even? It's generally felt among those I know that while it's a great system for new players, it penalises those who have been playing for years and have carefully crafted their class and play style to be the way they want - and now they can't play how they want.

The new trait system seems to have people divided into many camps. We all have to decide where we fit in. There are more than this, but to give a few examples:

• New players who never saw the old system
  These are maybe the most likely to embrace the new because it is all they know. there will be those who don't like it anyway, but that won't likely be from comparing it to what came before.
  .
• Players who dislike the new system without really trying it fully because it is so different
  I have been guilty of this in games. The developers changed something that I have played for years? Noooooo! As a matter of fact, I was almost in this category when it came to the Minstrel overhaul a couple years back. Then I discovered Minstrels were even better after the changes.
  .
• Players who have tried making the new system work like the old system and gotten frustrated
  You just are not going to have all the skills you had under the previous class trait system. Some hybrid builds might be gone for good. I mourn their loss, but if trying to build exactly what you had before does not work, maybe look for ways to get the same general feel with a new build.
  .
• Players who have tried the new system and dislike it after finding problems
  There are problems with the new trait trees. Some problems that were likely brought up in beta and have continued to live for one reason or another. This does not mean all the problems will stay. I am sure tweaking still needs to be done and I can hope the bigger community concerns will be addressed.
  .
• Players who have tried the new system and report problems in hopes of having the system improve
  This is where I am right now. I have been trying to learn the new system and find builds that work for me. There are certain things I see as issues with the trees that are not just a matter of it being different. Things like the Minstrel's yellow line and some skills that just don't seem to do what they would need to do to be useful. Some good conversations go on in the forums and, again, I hope to see some of the concerns addressed
  .
• Players who have tried the new system and decided to restart with a new character
  I tried this as well. I'd never played a Rune-keeper before, so gave it a shot. I think they have maybe taken one of the biggest hits to flexibility under the new trees, since I don't yet see a way to switch from effective dps to effective heals within the same fight (which could be done before), but I am only in the 30s and still learning.

Basically, my main message here is that if you don't like the new traits, removing yourself from play because of it is only serving to also remove you from being part of the solution. It may be sending a message to stop playing, but if, as you say, new players are ok with the trait trees, it may not be an effective message in the long term.

Now, if you are 100% certain you can no longer have any fun with LOTRO characters, new or old, with trait trees, then stepping back from the game is probably the right choice. Other than that, though, with all its problems, I still think LOTRO is a fun game and is one worth fighting for. 2014 may not see the removal of trait trees, but it could see many improvements with them. I hope you are around to help make it happen with the rest of us.

[rosey21]

I can answer this as definitely as I did during beta. The Trait trees system is not being removed or rolled back. Period.
(Someone did call out that we should be more direct, clear, and leave no room for misunderstanding, right?)

Be careful Sapience, that "period" can get ya into trouble...

[ErandarTheFirst]

I can answer this as definitely as I did during beta. The Trait trees system is not being removed or rolled back. Period.
(Someone did call out that we should be more direct, clear, and leave no room for misunderstanding, right?)

And I thank you for that, I love the new trait tree system and don't want it removed. Sure, things need to get ajustments but it's a good system. (IMHO)
What also caught my eye few months ago is that people heard we would get a trait tree system and without even seeing and it was like: "oh no this is going to be bad".
People went in with the expectation it would be bad and in their eyes they will do everything to convince themselves that the system is bad.

Though on the otherside I can understand why people don't like it. Bad experiences with previous games for example. Lotro's system was very unique and very good.
Doesn't mean that the trait trees are bad. I think Change is unavoidable, you can't keep changing stuff on classes with the same system you have for years, there is a limit.

I also can understand the opinion of people with saying that the system was good how it was. Same thing here though, you can't keep the same system forever and don't change anything.
It will get boring overtime with everything being the same, then people will be asking "when are you going to change the classes".

PS: Welcome back Aaron Campbell, happy to have you back on lotro ^^.

[anthonyx]

The new trait system seems to have people divided into many camps. We all have to decide where we fit in. There are more than this, but to give a few examples:

• New players who never saw the old system
  These are maybe the most likely to embrace the new because it is all they know. there will be those who don't like it anyway, but that won't likely be from comparing it to what came before.
  .
• Players who dislike the new system without really trying it fully because it is so different
  I have been guilty of this in games. The developers changed something that I have played for years? Noooooo! As a matter of fact, I was almost in this category when it came to the Minstrel overhaul a couple years back. Then I discovered Minstrels were even better after the changes.
  .
• Players who have tried making the new system work like the old system and gotten frustrated
  You just are not going to have all the skills you had under the previous class trait system. Some hybrid builds might be gone for good. I mourn their loss, but if trying to build exactly what you had before does not work, maybe look for ways to get the same general feel with a new build.
  .
• Players who have tried the new system and dislike it after finding problems
  There are problems with the new trait trees. Some problems that were likely brought up in beta and have continued to live for one reason or another. This does not mean all the problems will stay. I am sure tweaking still needs to be done and I can hope the bigger community concerns will be addressed.
  .
• Players who have tried the new system and report problems in hopes of having the system improve
  This is where I am right now. I have been trying to learn the new system and find builds that work for me. There are certain things I see as issues with the trees that are not just a matter of it being different. Things like the Minstrel's yellow line and some skills that just don't seem to do what they would need to do to be useful. Some good conversations go on in the forums and, again, I hope to see some of the concerns addressed
  .
• Players who have tried the new system and decided to restart with a new character
  I tried this as well. I'd never played a Rune-keeper before, so gave it a shot. I think they have maybe taken one of the biggest hits to flexibility under the new trees, since I don't yet see a way to switch from effective dps to effective heals within the same fight (which could be done before), but I am only in the 30s and still learning.

Basically, my main message here is that if you don't like the new traits, removing yourself from play because of it is only serving to also remove you from being part of the solution. It may be sending a message to stop playing, but if, as you say, new players are ok with the trait trees, it may not be an effective message in the long term.

Now, if you are 100% certain you can no longer have any fun with LOTRO characters, new or old, with trait trees, then stepping back from the game is probably the right choice. Other than that, though, with all its problems, I still think LOTRO is a fun game and is one worth fighting for. 2014 may not see the removal of trait trees, but it could see many improvements with them. I hope you are around to help make it happen with the rest of us.

I think you hit it pretty well. I go from one of those to another sometimes on the same day! It also depends on what toon I play. It is a flawed system but it is fixable. I think what people really have trouble with (of course I can only speak for myself) is that we are forced to play differently. There was no great movement on the forums or anywhere else that said let's scrap this and start all over. Trees can work. I like how they work in a few MMOs that I play. But the customization is lost. You can do it but at a great cost to the role that I prefer. And that is what really disappoints me. We were told that one of the main reasons for switching (other then skill bloat) was that the classes had homogenized builds. That the tree would allow for more flexibility. That hasn't worked out on any of the 7 toons that I play regularly. Some are better then others. It seemed that there wasn't a lot of thought in how some skills were gate so far down a line that unless you play that spec you won't get that skill.

I was part of the beta and the devs did what they could to address these issues. If the hunter was release as it was in Beta 1 and 2 then there would be mass suicides (hunter suicide!). I am hopeful that things get better. I would like to be able to earn more class points and I hope they add additional skills. It would be cool to play my class the way I want to. So I try to voice my concerns and hope that things happen.

[Corelli]

In addition you were allowed to invite 10 friends who you could also grant founders status to during the first few months after launch.

I don't remember this part at all. Half of my friends who played when it started did the Founders package and the other half don't play anymore. I was definitely happy to pay the initial $199 Founders fee, it has been well worth it over the almost 7 years the game has been live. Even though almost no one does a monthly sub anymore (which I disagree with as I am not a big fan of the easy level free to play system) I figure I have "paid off" a monthly sub of $9.99 or $14.99 (which I think was the original monthly sub) years ago.

I have played on and off over the past seven years, haven't always agreed with all the changes made to the game, think some things are pointless/too hard/too easy (according to me, your mileage may vary) but have never played or enjoyed a MMO as much as LOTRO. The possible exception being Ultima Online which was my first (worst and best experiences playing).

I will always come back to LOTRO till the bitter end, which will hopefully take us to the gates of Mordor and even maybe Mount Doom before the plug is pulled.

[Zikaris99]

This may be a silly question, but what are "Hobnangians"? Google has no answers for me.

http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/A_Game_of_Hobnanigan

It's hobnanigans, like shenanigans. Google must not have suggested sites based on the typo

[Rupture1]

Its sad how you totally ignore questions about PvMP. But no1 is surprised i think! So im gonna ask again! Any news in PvMP in upcoming updates? Thank you for no answer.

on the back burner as always. its sad because the fail to realize that they created a very good original pvp expirience that with a little more effort could be great. i have played/pvped every mainstream mmo that has come out in the last 7 years and always come back to lotro. no other game has that fish bowl open world community pvp this game has. its fun knowing who you are fighting, seeing people you played with 6 years ago still out there keeping up the fight and meeting new people that emerge in the ranks.

[Thornglen]

In addition you were allowed to invite 10 friends who you could also grant founders status to during the first few months after launch.

I don't remember this part at all. Half of my friends who played when it started did the Founders package and the other half don't play anymore. I was definitely happy to pay the initial $199 Founders fee, it has been well worth it over the almost 7 years the game has been live. Even though almost no one does a monthly sub anymore (which I disagree with as I am not a big fan of the easy level free to play system) I figure I have "paid off" a monthly sub of $9.99 or $14.99 (which I think was the original monthly sub) years ago.

I have played on and off over the past seven years, haven't always agreed with all the changes made to the game, think some things are pointless/too hard/too easy (according to me, your mileage may vary) but have never played or enjoyed a MMO as much as LOTRO. The possible exception being Ultima Online which was my first (worst and best experiences playing).

I will always come back to LOTRO till the bitter end, which will hopefully take us to the gates of Mordor and even maybe Mount Doom before the plug is pulled.

I certainly remember founders being able to invite others on the founder pricing. That was how I got in.

I, too, will keep coming back to LOTRO. I don't have as much time to play as I had 6 years ago, but it is still one of the best around for me and I am hoping 2014 brings a good number of improvements.

[YamydeAragon]

Technically, we've had Entplay already, haven't we, when we played as Nurzum? Though he was a stone giant,he seemed very "ent-like". I wouldn't expect Ent Play to be much different, though I could be wrong.

Yes, he technically was a corrupted ent. By what you can read of the quests (Spoiler alert): Nurzum was part giant (man kind) & part huorn (nature kind). He was a chimera achieved by Saruman's experiments. I almost pity him as Saruman took him when he was young, weak & inocent & convinced him to turn against men & ents that where once his friends.

Back to the original theme, im looking up for those revamps. They will be very welcome.

[Crell_1]

And I thank you for that, I love the new trait tree system and don't want it removed. Sure, things need to get ajustments but it's a good system. (IMHO)
What also caught my eye few months ago is that people heard we would get a trait tree system

Trait trees are not Skill trees. This is a fundamental difference in what we were expecting vs. what we got. This made it harder to swallow.

[BloodLoaf]

This is a massive multiplayer online game right? Can you PLEASE give us a reason to group with other people!! Need new raiding end game content!!!!! People don't want to solo their way to Mordor!

[Linathrial]

I can answer this as definitely as I did during beta. The Trait trees system is not being removed or rolled back. Period.
(Someone did call out that we should be more direct, clear, and leave no room for misunderstanding, right?)

Good! Because the trait tree system is excellent as far as I'm concerned. So is mounted combat. So is Helm's Deep. So are the revamps of Bree and Mines of Moria.

As a matter of fact, I am loving the direction this game is going. I just don't understand why some folks are never happy?

I have seen all the new games coming out and let me tell you, the 2 best games on the internet STILL in my opinion are 10 years old and the other is 7 years old. One of them is this game which is by far my favourite....the other one I'll let you guys figure out.

Turbine, I love the variety of different things you are bringing to this game. Keep up the great work!

[rosey21]

Good! Because the trait tree system is excellent as far as I'm concerned. So is mounted combat. So is Helm's Deep. So are the revamps of Bree and Mines of Moria.

As a matter of fact, I am loving the direction this game is going. I just don't understand why some folks are never happy?

I have seen all the new games coming out and let me tell you, the 2 best games on the internet STILL in my opinion are 10 years old and the other is 7 years old. One of them is this game which is by far my favourite....the other one I'll let you guys figure out.

Turbine, I love the variety of different things you are bringing to this game. Keep up the great work!

For the most part I am happy with the game, however I just cannot be happy over HD & mounted combat. Sorry...

[Tiempko]

This is a massive multiplayer online game right? Can you PLEASE give us a reason to group with other people!! Need new raiding end game content!!!!! People don't want to solo their way to Mordor!

I asm certain that many people do want to solo themselves to Mordor. For me, that is fine. There is no wrong way to have fun, except to find fun in the suffering of others.

However, wanting to adventure with friends is not a wrong way to have fun either. Those options seem to be disappearing. I truly fear that the North Downs upgrade will do more of the same. I fear the ruination of Nan Wathren and Dol Dinen. But, I am hopeful for a pleasant surprise.

[Linathrial]

For the most part I am happy with the game, however I just cannot be happy over HD & mounted combat. Sorry...

I am....very happy with this game.

Meh...to each their own.

[Nodwick]

Well welcome ( yet again )

What I would like to see from the future, is that Turbine and the staff that make things, and announce it on the forums, would be more prominent and forthcoming answering questions about the stuff, specially when we the players come here to ask for clarification.

Let me give an example.

The bounder token, were promised as this: ( I have cut some of the original quote away so it doesnt take up that much space, but you can go back and read it all )

From Sep 17 2013:

Hello, everyone. It’s EdgeCase here

The final way will also be shown on the plaque. On the plaque will be the names of one character for each person who contributed the most

to the event. If you’re one of our biggest contributors, you will have the name of one of your characters emblazoned on this statue

forever.

Questions were asked about how this would work, on Sep 18 2013, this post was given to the community:

1. We're still determining exactly how many names will be on the statue. We're also still determining whether or

not the recognition will be a "highest contributors on each server" or "highest contributors globally" thing.

And since then no more information was given to us.
The last server to complete it all was on 6th october.

Then in middle of february 2014, the statue came up, without any announcement at all, and now it was not as it was expected from the community, even though this has been said by +Sapience and the 26th of february:

This isn't new to be honest. I've always encourage people to read the words written and not to to assign meaning or

intent to them. A very large amount of disappointment can be avoided by not trying to dig out some deeper, probably nonexistent, meaning

only to find out that it you've created an idea in your mind that did not exist in the speaker's (typers?).

So even if we read what is written, we got something else, so we cant in effect trust what is written.


What I want to bring forth and say is, be more active on the forums, make it clear what it is you want, and when you have said that, stick with it, and if you change what was promised, then give the players an oppertunity to give input on this without closing the talks down, and let the community help you when you are wrong to right it again.
Keep the community updated on the progress of these things.

[Sapience]

Well welcome ( yet again )

What I would like to see from the future, is that Turbine and the staff that make things, and announce it on the forums, would be more prominent and forthcoming answering questions about the stuff, specially when we the players come here to ask for clarification.

Let me give an example.

The bounder token, were promised as this: ( I have cut some of the original quote away so it doesnt take up that much space, but you can go back and read it all )

From Sep 17 2013:


Questions were asked about how this would work, on Sep 18 2013, this post was given to the community:



And since then no more information was given to us.
The last server to complete it all was on 6th october.

Then in middle of february 2014, the statue came up, without any announcement at all, and now it was not as it was expected from the community, even though this has been said by +Sapience and the 26th of february:



So even if we read what is written, we got something else, so we cant in effect trust what is written.


What I want to bring forth and say is, be more active on the forums, make it clear what it is you want, and when you have said that, stick with it, and if you change what was promised, then give the players an oppertunity to give input on this without closing the talks down, and let the community help you when you are wrong to right it again.
Keep the community updated on the progress of these things.

Youi missed one that sits right before the last quote you listed. This from a Take the Hobbits to Isengard thread.

Will the people who are on the Bounder's Bounty plaques be able to choose which character they want displayed in the future
When they started sorting out what was going to go on the Bounder’s Bounty plaques it was discovered there was going to be a group of 1,400+ people needing to respond with which character they wanted on the plaque, and that was going to take way too long to organize, so instead they went with the accounts that had the highest count, and which of the characters on that account contributed the most.

[Crell_1]

Youi missed one that sits right before the last quote you listed. This from a Take the Hobbits to Isengard thread.

+Sapience, can anything be done for players who A.) Did not even get a character name that existed on the account at the time of the plaque creation? or B.) Had characters they wanted assigned who turned in 'an equal amount' as the character who was listed.

Yes. Contacting 1400 players and changing all those names would be a hassle. ; This would be a much smaller subset I reckon.

[Sapience]

+Sapience, can anything be done for players who A.) Did not even get a character name that existed on the account at the time of the plaque creation? or B.) Had characters they wanted assigned who turned in 'an equal amount' as the character who was listed.

Yes. Contacting 1400 players and changing all those names would be a hassle. ; This would be a much smaller subset I reckon.

In the exceedingly rare case where I might be able to tie the name being wrong with a direct error in our data. Maybe. Outside of that, highly unlikely.

[Arrabell]

Welcome back Rowan! I do believe you have been missed.

[Crell_1]

+Sapience, can anything be done for players who A.) Did not even get a character name that existed on the account at the time of the plaque creation? or B.) Had characters they wanted assigned who turned in 'an equal amount' as the character who was listed.

In the exceedingly rare case where I might be able to tie the name being wrong with a direct error in our data. Maybe. Outside of that, highly unlikely.

Just so I'm exceedingly clear.

You mean that A) Is a Maybe. And B.) Is highly unlikely?

If you fall into A. (I know a at least one person who does) What should be done to get it on file? A PM to you? A support ticket?

[Sapience]

Just so I'm exceedingly clear.

You mean that A) Is a Maybe. And B.) Is highly unlikely?

If you fall into A. (I know a at least one person who does) What should be done to get it on file? A PM to you? A support ticket?

Yes on A and B. Send me a PM (and I know of one person who falls under A as well and already speaking to them).

[Reximus]

I can answer this as definitely as I did during beta. The Trait trees system is not being removed or rolled back. Period.
(Someone did call out that we should be more direct, clear, and leave no room for misunderstanding, right?)

It hasn't worked thus far with Ettenmoors or Instance/Raid clusters, both of which have come up again in this thread.

Also, I like the new trait trees, I like the new abilities I have because of them, and I wouldn't call them a failure.

[cirkonia]

This is a massive multiplayer online game right? Can you PLEASE give us a reason to group with other people!! Need new raiding end game content!!!!! People don't want to solo their way to Mordor!

It dont have to be a multiboss raid, some or one 6man instance, some 3man would be enough for the time beeing until we wait for somehting bigger maybe in 2015. All complaints about skilltrees and so called bugs, were not the reason the most of my kinship was driven away from this game. Nobody quit the game because of skilltrees, inventory handling, housing, not revamped starter areas or something else.

The only reason nearly all leave the game is that there is no group-content anymore that is challanging in any way. The scaled instances are nice, but with the still ongoing issue with bad balancing they are still in a facerollmode. Is that issue forgotten?

Just have done again a 12 man skirmish level 95 with one mini, a captain and level 89 Lore-Masters. No challange at all, even not in the most other instances. That drives player away. And our kinship is not a hardcore raiding kiniship, more a casual gamer kiniship which does from time to time some group-content.

And after years players want to see something new...even it is not a multiboss cluster...

I wonder how much development time was spent on the playable ent - what they would have be able to do with that time? Why does Turbine always nice but not neccessary Fluff. The Epic will be fun, yes - for a hour not more....and will not bring any player back for longer than few days.