A Letter from Executive Producer Aaron Campbell

[Linnaeus]

Gondor better be impressive!

[Mar-Evayave]

I have to dispute a couple things you said which are... not entirely correct.

That's okay with me. I like a good duel. *draws blade* Engarde!

I hope you don't mind that I chopped your post up into bits, but I wanted to respond to your points one by one.

> Raiders are the most likely people to use the Auction House. Their "money" often goes toward the gear and consumables they need for group activities. A raider (playing a hunter) is much more likely to even go looking for Light/Fire Oils, Bow Chants, and Focus Potions. A raider is much more likely to think about using various things that might be overlooked by others. And, guess what? Raiders are the most likely people to (by extension) support the "economy" of their server.

I don't really have the statistics to show one way or the other, though I would parry your right hook and make a jab to your flank and say that I think crafters are the most likely people to use the AH. Crafting is a big part of many player's time, whether they are casual soloers, raiders, whatever. Crafters swap resources and recipes this way, raiders get the end product this way (assuming those raiders don't make it themselves -- I, for example, have all guilded alts and would sooner grind what I need than buy what I need, so I would just craft my end-game stuff if I wanted it). You might be surprised at how many non-raiders also like those things. Perhaps not as much, I'll give you that, but those things do have just as good a use in solo play as in raid play.

> Likewise, raiders are much more likely to make full use of the crafting system. They want the good gear and consumables. So, that is going to create natural demand for crafted items. Yes, other people do use the crafting system... but not nearly as much as someone who needs to keep up their crafting to support raiding habits... and by extension, their friends are encouraged to keep up their crafting to support their raiding friends.

Ah, I see where you are going. See, I would have separated crafters into their own group. I'd wager that an equal percentage of all playstyles make full use of the crafting system. The gear available there is just as valuable. I suppose PvMPers might use it marginally less (simply because crafted armor does not have Audacity) but even then they probably had a PvE set of gear (I did, for example). I would still put Crafters into their own group. Everyone in my kinship crafts (and a lot -- all of them are guilded to my knowledge), but I'm the only one who raids or PvPs. At a grander scale, I have rarely come across someone who doesn't craft at all.

> Raiders are the ones most responsible for a lot of the good items that make their way to the Auction House. All those Star-lit crystals on the AH didn't just magically appear. You don't get them by RPing or questing (well, not yet anyways). You get those kind of items to drop only by running 3, 6, and 12 man instances.

Doubtful. Star-lit crystals are only one item out of many. There is a lot more in the AH than stuff obtained via raids. Furthermore, so much of this is posted at such high prices, that typically only other raiders would be willing to pay that much to obtain the stuff. Why would a casual player pay so much for something they don't really need?

> Raiders are the ones who encourage the building of a solid network of "friends" within the community. There is just something about "fighting, bleeding, and dying together" that builds friendships... in ways that other methods don't even compare. You are able to make that "connection" much better via raiding. Granted, some raiders can be jerks... but I would say easily 90% of them are great folks... if you don't mind putting up with a little coarse language and crazy antics.

So not true. Sorry, I totally don't agree about the whole crafting stuff, but this I really totally don't agree with. A lot of raiders and even PvPers I've seen are the real jerks. What's more, that coarse language shows willingness to violate the rules, and if "crazy antics" mean nonstop talk about certain parts (and sizes) of anatomy... then thanks, but no thanks. *mock vomit* And then there are the "elitists" who refuse to let anyone in who doesn't have max virtues, top-of-the-line gear, etc. I've never met any good friends in raids. I met a few in PvP. The vast majority of my friends I met in casual play and are now kinmates. And none of us (but me) raid.

Granted, perhaps my server has a lot of bad apples and things are more mature on your server, but... *sigh*

> All other aspects of the game benefit from having a healthy raiding community. I dare say that raiders are much more likely to discover the "fun" aspects of the game... like RP, music, crafting... even delving more into the quests... because raiders want to learn the mechanics of the game so as to discover how best to play their characters. Even raiders need time to just chill out and do non-raiding stuff. Example: There was a really great Guardian who used to play on my server (some may know him as Horthell) who also loved to mess around with the music system.

I just don't get this at all. Raiding has nothing to do with RP, music or crafting. The ability to RP, play music, or craft gear has no impact on one's ability to play their class.

> Raiders are the most likely people to spend [real] money on the game. They have the most incentive to do so... if only to maintain their subscription.

Since raids primary come from expansions, why would they need subs?

> Raiders are the most likely people to have greater knowledge about the game... and be able to pass it along to newbies... thus, adding more people to the "raiding population."

I'll give you that one. They pretty much need to have a greater knowledge about their class, in any case. Pass it on to the newbs? Only if they are not the jerks.

Now, don't get me wrong... I am not saying that other people don't do some or all of the things I listed. I am simply saying that raiders have the most natural incentive to take full advantage of all aspects of the game.

I dunno. I see so many people (those vocal minorities we've been referring to) who say, "no raids? I quit!" If they take such full advantage of the rest of the game, then why are they quitting? Apparently crafting, RP, music, etc. can't be too important to them if they don't care enough to stay for them.

I can't argue with the rest of your post either. I am a mutt of this MMO. I do a bit of everything. I am dabbling at RPing over on Landroval, and I hope to get more involved in the music system there as well. When lvl cap was 75 I did a LOT of raiding and PvPing, and more PvPing when lvl cap was 85. Sadly, the Riddermark server is either gank-world or empty world as far as the Moors are concerned (as I said, most of my friends in there have transferred servers or stopped altogether; there's almost no point).

I definitely don't disagree about content. In beta I loved the EBs. Unfortunately, I had assumed that all the broken parts would be fixed. Unfortunately, the system is (IMHO) in shambles. I'd totally support more raids (or group content in general). I don't dispute all of that.

If I were to TL;DR this post here, I'd just say this: I disagree with the sentiment that raiders are the backbone to this game. *shrug*

would fail Mar-Evayave's 'manners' test

Just want to point out that it is not my "manners" test. It is Turbine's. As I said, when people can't even avoid using profanity in their thread titles, then it's a hopeless cause IMO. Protest all you want, but if you can't be polite and mature about it, and follow rules regarding profanity and other such things, then don't expect people to take you 100% seriously.

I can't understand where you are coming from here. You don't like EBs, ok that's not a hard concept to grasp. But apparently you've done each one once per character and yet expect to find it easier than it is currently. Once you are a R5+ engineer everything tends to be so simple and formulaic and yes easy that any nerfs would be hard to tolerate.

That is sorta where I'm coming from, actually. If I have to waste hours and hours of grinding EBs that are insanely difficult, with almost no rewards, that frustrate me beyond belief, then I have no inclination to find out what it's like when I reach rank 5 in any role. There needs to be at least a little of the fun-factor. The EBs held the promise (not spoken but perceived) that even the ordinary Joe could jump in and perhaps, down the line, even raid with the old pros. Unfortunately, the ordinary Joe finds himself totally overwhelmed in the chaotic mess that is the EBs. Dismayed at the situation, he flees in great panic and buries any hope of grouping up as a high-ranking Engineer. There has got to be some measure of fun, even at the lowest rank. If I "complete" an EB and technically failed, there is no sense of accomplishment. At least in a traditional raid I can feel I accomplished something.

But specifically to address you're approach to this... You are a raider, and well versed in the ettenmoors by you're own admission. Was your first run of ToO simples? how about OD or BG or the rift? or even the watcher. Was your first few hours of the moors full of killing blows , dancing from victory to victory? didn't think so. Yes the EBs seem hard at R0 especially when you haven't looked up any strategies for the quests. But with some perseverence it quickly becomes a AFK bore fest (granted only a few are like this) . Helms dike certain combos of side quests after setting up pre fight you literally can AFK and get platinum on 3 quests and the main. If you're unlucky you'll have to fire a catapult a few times.

Actually, I only ever ran the Rift once, and I was such a newb to the game that I had no idea what was going on. That was also when the level cap was 65, so many were overleveled. My experiences there are next to nothing. ToO was a learning experience, but it was a fun experience. Depending on the wing, we'd stop at various places and plan what we were going to do. We'd take a bio. Get a last drink. Heal up, buff up. We'd do all this preparation and then move into action with a plan and a strategy. EBs totally takes this away. Yes, we can plan, "If X quest comes up, here's what we'll do" but it's just totally different. No matter what class you play, you'll be doing more or less the same thing. "You guard that crystal and I'll charge through to the queen, killing spiders as I go." Doesn't matter what class I'm on. If there is one specific thing I dislike about the EBs, it's how totally useless many classes feel. The one I felt was best was the champ, but only because a champ is an AoE hog. I pretty much god-moded my way through mobs. My LM, with mostly single-target, stationary, induction-based attacks? Not the same by any standard.

I can't say how the EBs feel at max rank. But if the path to that end is like sleeping on a bed of thorns, then no thanks. I've never experienced this much in PvP or raiding. Maybe if I went into the EBs in a full raid as a first-timer it wouldn't be so bad, but as all of them must be solo/duo first, it doesn't even give me a chance to taste that in full-force. It is hard enough on duo, and nigh impossible solo.

Oh, there is one thing I thought of. So, EBs are available level 10 and up? Yeah... right. Took my Landroval toon in there a few weeks ago (was mid-to-high 20s I think?). I was literally slaughtered and my own attacks did next to no damage. I had a snowball's chance in the underworld of soloing that thing. And that was after having taken my high level toons on the Riddermark server through. It wasn't a case of not knowing what to do or how to do it. It was simply a no-win situation. Boggles my mind how anyone could complete it at that level.

[yafga]

How can people be happy about this? Sure i would approve if the core game worked as intended, but its not...

Revamped zones just means they move around some quests, add some new and delete all group quests. Probably remove all red rings aswell -.- There is seriously no reson now to level up alts! I know the story, done all zones many times.

And this mailsystem is something that we dont need! It seriously dont make any sense to be able to read mails anywhere on the map :S

Session play, it was interesting in moria. But after that it got worse, i think the boromir session play was the worst one you have ever created. To make session play interesting you need to give us an interesting character, with fun skills.. not skills from champions/guardians.. thats just stupid.

The new book is good news, but you should have thrown in some 3mans or 6 mans in the new region.

So no this will not bring me back to the game! =(

And also nice to see a new Executive Producer, i dont know what Kate did for this game that improved it. Back in the days when Jeffrey Steefel were the Executive producer the game was awesome.

[frickinmuck]

On the face of it the response from the Raid and PvMP communities has been pretty restrained. Focusing on the handful who allow their anger to boil over into unpleasantness to other players is a distraction. LOTRO used to be able to cater for everyone and all those groups rubbed along pretty well. The silence and complicity from those who don't take part in Raiding or PvMP is shameful. I say this to them: one day your preferred activity will be on the cost-cutting chopping block and perhaps then you'll understand the rage of players whose game experience has been gutted with no explanation or comment and who are expected to suck it up on the grounds that they are "only a minority".

I haven't seen anything I would call "restrained" from those communities. Bitterness, arguing, attacking of the devs, of Turbine and of other players from these groups has become de rigueur for the forums - and for the game sites and fansites - for many months now. I get that people are upset and feeling gutted over the lack of content that appeals to them, but that is never an excuse to be a jerk. As for the silence of the other players, I've seen a lot of non-PvMP and non-raiding players express concern and stand up for those communities.

If these communities want to see more content to their liking, and more support from devs and other players, they are going to HAVE to find more constructive ways to make it happen. They are becoming so shrill that they are going to end up generating hostility and backlash where they would benefit more from solidarity and support. The person or group that finds a way to channel the interest/anger positively into a more constructive, community-minded outreach/outcry, and devises constructive suggestions and requests that are actionable by devs, will have about a thousand times more success than those who just sit here and type vicious screeds.

I have noticed that the community manager (not using his name because it's not a PERSONAL attack) has gotten very, very short tempered over the past many months to the point of indignation fairly often. In fact, he reminds me quite a bit of good ol' Floon Beetle of yesteryear. I don't like reading the Dev posts anymore because too often I find myself tilting my head at the community manager's comments and wondering if his tone pasts muster as good community relations and customer service. As a customer (since beta) I don't think it does. Perhaps burn-out is to be blamed, but a vacation and corrective action are warranted.

Since we all know you are talking about +Sapience, your withholding of his name doesn't make your attack any less personal. Add me to the list of those who disagree with you on this. If anything, I think he's handled himself with exceptional aplomb given the significant challenge anyone who tries wrangling communities like this must face. Particularly when there are always direct and often personal attacks put upon people in positions of perceived authority, that they must deal with in addition to any community management duties. And I've said this before, but "tone" online is almost ENTIRELY down to the reader. What you see when you read something is quite often a total reflection of your own attitude, and often has little to do with the attitude of the person writing. The reader's state of mind, positive, neutral or negative, will determine the bulk of the tone of any message.

It's down to you and how you choose to read what someone is saying. You have responsibility for your own experience. If you read someone's comments uncharitably, you can't then call them out for their supposed tone.

[TheCrossbow]

That's okay with me. I like a good duel. *draws blade* Engarde!

I hope you don't mind that I chopped your post up into bits, but I wanted to respond to your points one by one.

I just want to point out that only one of us views this as a duel. I am sure it is possible to have a hearty discussion without anyone feeling like it is a duel.

I don't really have the statistics to show one way or the other, though I would parry your right hook and make a jab to your flank and say that I think crafters are the most likely people to use the AH. Crafting is a big part of many player's time, whether they are casual soloers, raiders, whatever. Crafters swap resources and recipes this way, raiders get the end product this way (assuming those raiders don't make it themselves -- I, for example, have all guilded alts and would sooner grind what I need than buy what I need, so I would just craft my end-game stuff if I wanted it). You might be surprised at how many non-raiders also like those things. Perhaps not as much, I'll give you that, but those things do have just as good a use in solo play as in raid play.

Ah, I see where you are going. See, I would have separated crafters into their own group. I'd wager that an equal percentage of all playstyles make full use of the crafting system. The gear available there is just as valuable. I suppose PvMPers might use it marginally less (simply because crafted armor does not have Audacity) but even then they probably had a PvE set of gear (I did, for example). I would still put Crafters into their own group. Everyone in my kinship crafts (and a lot -- all of them are guilded to my knowledge), but I'm the only one who raids or PvPs. At a grander scale, I have rarely come across someone who doesn't craft at all.

I am not disputing that raiders aren't the only people who take advantage of the crafting system. I am merely making the point that they are the "group" who has the most natural incentive.

By default, raids, instances, and PvP... those things tend to make you want to seek out ways to make your character the best they can be... or at least decent enough to survive. Therefore, those activities tend to have people looking for whatever crafted items you can get... or whatever other top gear is available.

In essence... the whole supply/demand aspect comes into play much more for those who more regularly engage in group content.

In LOTRO, the person who does not regularly participate in group content may still want/use the good crafted/dropped gear... but they just don't have that built-in incentive that grouping provides.

Therefore, "raiders" are the ones who are most likely to use whatever methods are available to acquire that gear...

Doubtful. Star-lit crystals are only one item out of many. There is a lot more in the AH than stuff obtained via raids. Furthermore, so much of this is posted at such high prices, that typically only other raiders would be willing to pay that much to obtain the stuff. Why would a casual player pay so much for something they don't really need?

I merely used Star-lit crystals as an example of an item that is only going to really become widely available from the "raiders" doing raids often enough that they generate far more "loot" than they can use. They, then, start passing along their excess to everyone else... friends or AH.

And, once enough of those "expensive" items start flooding the market... basic economics dictates that the price will eventually come down to a range where the "average Joe" can afford them.

Or, ideally... the "average Joe" gets enticed to go do some raiding because he finds out where he can get those Star-lit crystals.

Also, related to an earlier point... the raiders will go buy the crafted stuff the "average Joe" puts on the AH... thus, probably giving "average Joe" a respectable income enough to afford a few Star-lit crystals.

So not true. Sorry, I totally don't agree about the whole crafting stuff, but this I really totally don't agree with. A lot of raiders and even PvPers I've seen are the real jerks. What's more, that coarse language shows willingness to violate the rules, and if "crazy antics" mean nonstop talk about certain parts (and sizes) of anatomy... then thanks, but no thanks. *mock vomit* And then there are the "elitists" who refuse to let anyone in who doesn't have max virtues, top-of-the-line gear, etc. I've never met any good friends in raids. I met a few in PvP. The vast majority of my friends I met in casual play and are now kinmates. And none of us (but me) raid.

Granted, perhaps my server has a lot of bad apples and things are more mature on your server, but... *sigh*

There are a couple things in this section that I need to address...

1. Most of the really good "raiding" groups will ask people to have max virtues and good gear for a reason. If someone has high numbers in their virtues and good gear, chances are they have a good grasp of their character.

2. Most of the really good "raiding" groups can come across as "elitist" simply because they actually expect people to meet some standards. And, most often, (not saying you are guilty of this) the complaints about raiders being "elitist" comes from people who just don't like the idea of being held to a higher standard.

Regarding those 2 things... if you want to participate in some really good raids, you are going to have to learn to accept that the leaders of those groups expect certain things out of their groupies. Some of those expectations may go unspoken... which is (IMHO) the fault of the leader for not spelling out those expectations especially when someone is new(er) to the group.

There are/were some really good raiding kinships in LOTRO. I can tell you, without a doubt, all of them have higher expectations of their members... for good reason. And, the majority of those kinships are able to walk away completing some pretty difficult raids because their members came prepared.

So, please do not paint raiders as jerks when they are simply asking you to meet higher standards.

As far as the coarse language and crazy antics... the really good groups will tolerate a little bit... but most of them are good folks who are quite willing to keep things clean when asked.

Again, there seems to be a little bit of an effort to apply the actions of a few bad apples to raiders as a whole.

You might take notice that the real "jerks" in MMOs tend not to last very long anyways...

I just don't get this at all. Raiding has nothing to do with RP, music or crafting. The ability to RP, play music, or craft gear has no impact on one's ability to play their class.

Well, crafting does have a direct impact... as demonstrated above. But, my point is that keeping around a healthy community of raiders does tend to have a positive impact on other aspects.

Since raids primary come from expansions, why would they need subs?

My overall point is that raiders are the ones most likely to spend [real] money on the game. Someone at Turbine clearly knows this is true because there are several items on the LOTRO store probably intended to entice raiders to spend money/points to "shortcut" the process of "gearing up".

I dunno. I see so many people (those vocal minorities we've been referring to) who say, "no raids? I quit!" If they take such full advantage of the rest of the game, then why are they quitting? Apparently crafting, RP, music, etc. can't be too important to them if they don't care enough to stay for them.

The thing about well-done raids is... they promote the idea of doing those raids repeatedly... at least so you can get that amazing piece of gear you want. There is also a tremendous amount of joy in helping other people get their goodies.

While other aspects can be used repeatedly... a healthy raiding community tends to promote a longevity that RP, crafting, music, etc don't. Those other things just lack the natural draw... especially once you reach the level cap and are looking for things to do.

[Ithrien]

I don't really have the statistics to show one way or the other

A lot of raiders and even PvPers I've seen are the real jerks.

It is extremely unfair and a bit rude of you to paint people who participate in PvMP and group/raid content as "jerks" (that break rules and all of the other things you're accusing countless players of - jeesh!).

I'm sorry you've had bad experiences with people - sometimes people's behavior can really suck (I have gone overboard myself, I'm still a good person). If for example you are being ridiculed (to whatever extent) for doing something wrong or not doing something you should be doing, how many times can that happen before you are taught, or figure out on your own, the right way, or at least a way that works?

In today's LOTRO, the significance of a single player's actions/gameplay choices, even gear and build choices... is far less impactful than previous years. There are very few roles that "need" to be filled in LOTRO content anymore, and more classes (in multiple traitlines) than ever can fill each role, whether intended or not. You're saying that there are people who still care about virtues, some of which giving +15 to a stat at 18 while gear gives ~200 to two stats and THEN some slices? Okay, I guess I can accept that there are still "those guys" out there, there will be a few bad eggs in every coop.
(Mine are all over 18, for the record. And I'd prefer my groups have virts at 18 as well. A good build implies a good player - but I do not automatically assume the opposite is true for bad/progressing builds.

But.. one fortunate thing about LOTRO is you only have to associate yourself or "deal with" the people that you choose to. You can solo, you can duo, or you can group with as many people as you want, join a kinship, add anybody you meet who you enjoy spending time chatting or running content with to your friends list, and put any "jerk" you encounter on your ignore lst.

Did you know that this game's community has won multiple awards, and is generally known to be one of the best around? Please stop trying to place anyone who groups/raids or PvMPs outside of that - we "minorities" earned that, and we ARE that, alongside casual players - the majority of which generally not being as active in the community as those of us who play regularly and participate in many LOTRO activities beyond solo/landscaping (let's not forget, vast majority of these - the majority of players - never even use GLFF) - who are vocal/active "minorities" like us on the forums and in-game.

And most importantly, the people who you encountered that were "jerks", they're a minority. Even if every person you've ever grouped with was a "jerk" to you, you're one person. Your experience doesn't speak true to the experiences of many in this game, the majority of the community is friendly enough to remain award-winning at the very least.

This will come of as rude, and I apologize in advance because I'm certainly not "calling you a jerk", but if no shoes fit... maybe its your foot? If there is an unreasonable and un-play-with-able player, should we expect that this poor attitude is shared by the majority of people who you've ever grouped with, rather than give this large number of people the benefit of the doubt that the problem here might be you, the only constant?

Your virtues can only go up. How are people still yelling at you, did you not bother to raise them?

The instances aren't dynamic, they don't change. How are people still yelling at you about not knowing what to do?

I can't argue with the rest of your post either. I am a mutt of this MMO. I do a bit of everything.
If I were to TL;DR this post here, I'd just say this: I disagree with the sentiment that raiders are the backbone to this game. *shrug*

I wish more people would understand that LOTRO is a complete package.
You aren't a "mutt", you're just a player, like everybody else. The game is intended to be played, fully, every aspect, by every player with the means to do so.

Whether or not a given player has enough time, money, or skill/ability to do so is going to vary for every person JUST like their attitudes.

Just want to point out that it is not my "manners" test. It is Turbine's.

Just want to point out:
I can point to a post where you call a portion (the majority that you've encountered) of group/raiding players jerks.
Can you point to a post where a group/raiding player says the same thing about other players like that?

Who cares what (in your case, other) people think the backbone of the game is, or even what the backbone of the game actually is as long as the game continues to provide enough, and "good enough" content for each playstyle?

FYI: Players who participate in raids ARE the backbone of one part of the community at least - the raiding community - and it was once a much larger, competetive and much-loved aspect of this game which kept many players around for years, and created and held together many kinships/friendships/acquaintanceships between thousands of players, whether you participated in that part of the community/game or not.

What matters is what YOU do. What matters is how YOU act. (You as in, each of us as individuals.)

You aren't doing yourself, or any new or old players any favors by bashing on people who raid.
I second a previous poster's opinion that the silence and compliance from people who don't/didn't participate in PvMP or group content is shameful, we should all be in support of proper venues of gameplay for all playstyles.

I haven't seen anything I would call "restrained" from those communities.

Then you are either selectively reading, have a questionable memory, are lying, or are wearing a certain type of goggles.

[Emere]

Hullos Mr Rowan Sir!
My name is Fincin Elodie Halwende the Only! (Landroval)
I gots two questions fer ya.
Is ya gonna fix the broked notes on our evur so hated piggyhorn?
Are ya gonna give the vury big music community another instrument or anything????
There are an awful lot o us tha' love musicin....so I am jus' curious how yer gonna treats us this time around or are we being fergitted again?
Love Fincin
~bunny hugs an pie kisses!~

[Cheery]

Will we find out what happens to Lothrandir?

This is important to me, too. I care about the Grey Company and very much want to see them forged into a fighting (and thinking) force.

[frickinmuck]

Then you are either selectively reading, have a questionable memory, are lying, or are wearing a certain type of goggles.

Any reference to what we've seen from these communities as "restraint" could be described in the same way.

[Cheery]

Agreed, yet I started BB and went afk until they finished - an unranked, single target melee class has no hope of doing anything anyway, so I made better use of the time that my character was in the BB. Definitely unfun game play.

You are making me feel better about how much I didn't enjoy BB. My main is a red-line champ. (Now, sometimes, yellow). In ignorance, I assumed that she was most likely to prosper as Vanguard. My mistake.
So, when I got alt #1 up to BB (red-line burg), I just tried to get her through it.
I keep telling myself that I really need to go back and work at it. But playing my lower alts or even going for Virtue deeds seems like less frustration and confusion.
Thanks for letting me know that I'm not alone.

[Ithrien]

Any reference to what we've seen from these communities as "restraint" could be described in the same way.

If thats how you choose to word a sweeping generalization that discounts any honest constructive communication or feedback, I happily direct you to your own words:

And I've said this before, but "tone" online is almost ENTIRELY down to the reader. What you see when you read something is quite often a total reflection of your own attitude, and often has little to do with the attitude of the person writing. The reader's state of mind, positive, neutral or negative, will determine the bulk of the tone of any message.

It's down to you and how you choose to read what someone is saying. You have responsibility for your own experience. If you read someone's comments uncharitably, you can't then call them out for their supposed tone.

At least posters of constructive feedback, if negative, can see your words here and know that when you're ignoring or misrepresenting all of their perfectly honest/decent attempts at being reasonable - even with posts like your last one! - that it isn't their fault.

All boils down to you on this one buddy.

[frickinmuck]

At least posters of constructive feedback, if negative, can see your words here and know that when you're ignoring or misrepresenting all of their perfectly honest/decent attempts at being reasonable - even with posts like your last one! - that it isn't their fault.

I do not respond to constructive feedback negatively. Rants, screeds, attacks and the like however, I have zero patience for. The forums have been dominated by such posts for months now. If I am sounding fed up, that is why.

[Cheery]

Rather than asking for the Battles to be removed or discontinued, I think I'd like to have people push for improvements to the system if it is really that bad. As it is, MMOs in general suffer from too much of the same thing over and over as you level. For me, LOTRO rises above this only because of the story, the world, and the effort Turbine spends on both of those along with adding the skirmishes, mounted combat, and battles as we go. Limiting that in any way seems like a request to go back to the same old same old.

You will never find me claim Turbine is the best out there when it comes to tech running smoothly in a game, but when it comes to making epic landscapes and locations, I can rarely find fault. The Battles LOOK great to me. I have just started them and am still learning the ropes, so I probably can't say where they are lacking just yet, but I'd like to see them stay, expand, and become fun and flexible enough to interest people. Now, if you just don't like the Skirmish/Battle format at all, I'm not sure what can be done, but if you like Skirmishes and think Battles are horrible, I believe there is room to improve them and make then a great part of the game.

Same goes for Mounted Combat. I am still learning how to not run my war-steed into a wall, but other than not being able to strafe like I can on a normal steed (why? argh! :P ), I am starting to enjoy it. I understand there are some who won't like it at all, but again, it added something new to the game. New is what I need so it isn't just fedex and kill 10 orcs outside (and sometimes inside) the epic.

I think Turbine has been good with starting the new ideas, maybe now what is needed is to polish, improve, and build upon them.

An excellent idea.
You are right about Turbine's good ideas.
I love Mounted Combat. And I'd love to see it expand with more variations.
I like Some Skirmishes. As a primarily solo player, I find a few of them too long. The reasons why I think BBs are worse (for me) than most are that:
1) they appear to be designed for couples, and
2) what I am supposed to do and where I'm supposed to go to do it, is not at all clear. Maps and clearer instructions would be nice.

[Ithrien]

I do not respond to constructive feedback negatively. Rants, screeds, attacks and the like however, I have zero patience for. The forums have been dominated by such posts for months now. If I am sounding fed up, that is why.

Well, that's fine. I can even relate. Too often people squash any chances of getting an actual reaction/response from Devs, even get threads closed.

One thing that doesn't help though, and never will, is to amplify the problem in the ways that what I quoted from you can sometimes do.

Everyone isn't bad. You can report the ones who are.

You directly used the words "these communities".

Its individuals, as I assume you already know... not the entire PvMP and raiding communities.

Sometimes statements like that are why you end up with rants, screeds, attacks and whatever.

[Mar-Evayave]

I just want to point out that only one of us views this as a duel. I am sure it is possible to have a hearty discussion without anyone feeling like it is a duel.

Sorry, I had thought it was obvious that I was teasing. -.- If it's not even a duel in jest, then I won't bother responding to the rest, so that it can't be mistaken as anything even remotely akin to a duel.

It is extremely unfair and a bit rude of you to paint people who participate in PvMP and group/raid content as "jerks" (that break rules and all of the other things you're accusing countless players of - jeesh!).

It is even more so unfair and rude of you to completely ignore what I said. I said very clearly that I was a PvMPer and a raider. Please take note of that statement. I'm hardly calling myself a jerk -- what purpose would that serve? Neither did I call you a jerk. I don't even know you. Neither did I say all the raiders and PvMPers were jerks. In fact, I very clearly stated that several of them were close friends. I even mentioned that I no longer PvMP on Riddermark because most of my friends in the Moors there have transferred servers and/or quit the game. I would greatly appreciate it if these points were given fair consideration. I am not, by any means, painting all PvMPers or all raiders as jerks. A lot of them have been. In PvMP they typically were the standard troll or rank farmers. Some made their trollish nature very clear; others were more covert about it. But thankfully there were very few of them there. In raiding, many of those I raided with were at worst poor at following instructions. But at best they were exceptional, and a very nice exceptional too. But yes, I have seen a lot who were simply, well, not.

As to the rest, I agree 100%. This game (or rather, it's community) performs quite remarkably. I am aware of at least one instance when we've been labeled as the most mature community. I have seen the very bad side of the community, as you note. It's hard to get past the rough spots. GLFF on Riddermark server is probably 15% legit stuff, 5% idle chatter, 40% trash talk (including profanity), and 40% verbal pornography. That is, unfortunately, the channel that raiders tend to congregate (at least publicly; I still see the standard "5/12 ToO..." posts on a regular basis; if the larger majority of raiders, the mature ones, on Riddermark now congregate elsewhere, they have not made it widely known). And yes, many of those involved in the latter 80% are raiders. In the past there was more legit stuff (after all, it IS Global Looking For Fellowship for a reason), but more and more trolls and other undesirables have made it a very unpleasant place to venture into. I now have it in a different tab on my chat box than the rest of my stuff so that I only go there when absolutely necessary. When I PvMPed we all merely used the OOC channel. That was far, far more mature and cleaner, simply because only those actually in the Moors could use it.

As to the point you raise about virtues (as in my earlier example of "elitists"), I have not seen that recently. That was an example of the days when 75 or 85 was the level cap. Virtues don't make a huge impact anymore. But those elitists (refusing to consider good players simply because those good players didn't have perfect gear, perfect virtues, perfect everything) behaved quite poorly. They were essentially discriminating against players who did not have all that perfection, apparently forgetting that they themselves had to start somewhere.

Please stop trying to place anyone who groups/raids or PvMPs outside of that - we "minorities" earned that, and we ARE that, alongside casual players - the majority of which generally not being as active in the community as those of us who play regularly and participate in many LOTRO activities beyond solo/landscaping (let's not forget, vast majority of these - the majority of players - never even use GLFF) - who are vocal/active "minorities" like us on the forums and in-game.
[...]
Just want to point out:
I can point to a post where you call a portion (the majority that you've encountered) of group/raiding players jerks.

No you can't. Again, I am part of that group as much as any other. Not even the majority of them. A minority within a minority. "A lot" does not mean a majority. It merely means a large quantity. A large quantity within a minority. It does not mean most, it does not even mean half.

The community -- as a whole, regardless of their playstyle -- earned those awards. Not any one group among us. It may be cliche, but united we stand and divided we fall. I wish people would stop all the bias between groups. Being a member of all groups (as I solo, casually group in landscape, raid, PvMP, play music, RP, craft, and probably anything else out there -- I'll try anything, so long as it doesn't break Turbine's rules), I am one of those who likes to enjoy the fullness of this game. Like you I care about it. I can be just as vocal as any other. I just try to choose better ways to express my opinion.

FYI: Players who participate in raids ARE the backbone of one part of the community at least - the raiding community -

Of course. There is no raiding community without the raiders. All I disputed is that the raiders are the backbone of the entire game. How can a minority be the backbone of a game?

You aren't doing yourself, or any new or old players any favors by bashing on people who raid.
[..]
Then you are either selectively reading, have a questionable memory, are lying, or are wearing a certain type of goggles.

[/quote]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I AM A RAIDER. So either A) I'm bashing myself. Or B) I wasn't bashing them (raiders or PvMPers, for that matter) at all.

What bewilders me is how everyone jumped down my throat. As a matter of potential interest, my original post on this matter was NOT about raiders/PvMPers (the so-called vocal minority) but about Sapience and his perceived lack of a temper. I attempted to show why raiders and PvMPers were seemingly considered to be a vocal minority on this forum. As Sapience and the rest of Turbine are the only ones with the statistics (the rest of us can only speak based on what they say and/or our personal opinion), I could only talk about the "vocal" part. And I gave examples when raiders can't even get past the first few lines with throwing mud at everyone else. Do all of them behave like that? Certainly not. In fact, at the end I referenced a specific example (#311 in this thread) that showed the exact opposite: a member of that vocal minority who can be VOCAL... but respectfully vocal. In fact, and I'm sorry that so many missed this the first time around, I ended with this fervent wish:

We see people say, "Oh I love HD," and others who say, "Oh I hate HD", and the same for the class changes, the EBs, and a plethora of other topics. It doesn't mean one side is wrong and the other is right. They are just different. But why can't they all be different and yet remain polite and mature-minded at the same time?

That was the single-most important point I was attempting to make. If Sapience's temper is thin, and I'm only saying if, isn't it understandable why? He doesn't even make the decisions about this game -- he is merely the mouthpiece. And yet he is usually the one getting bashed. And the negative portion of the vocal minority is typically the portion doing that bashing. The lack of raids and the poor situation in the Moors are among the hottest topics of the game at the moment, and have been for months. The situation breeds discord and upset emotions, and at times it gets out of control. I never said I liked any of it. I just wish everyone would at least remain respectful when they express their unhappiness. I do not envy his position. I do not think I could handle those situations with such withstraint. In fact, I'd have probably broken down and begged my supervisor ages ago to be transfered, were I in his place. I appreciate his situation, but I do not envy it.

I will take this opportunity to request that, if any disagreement must continue (be it with you or anyone else), that it continue silently. I've attempted to turn this situation back around, but this will be my last attempt. I apologize for any misunderstanding. I apologize if any previous comments of mine were not written clearly. I hope this current post clears that up, but if not, I do not wish to persue it any further. So, at worst, shall we just agree to disagree? At best, and I hope this is the case, we can all agree to forget the last few posts we've made and move forward. In which case I'll gladly continue this conversation. I sincerely do hope that we can live up to our name. Not as a vocal minority, or a mutt, but as a mature playerbase. Regardless of the state of the game, I hope that is the one thing we can all maintain.

This is important to me, too. I care about the Grey Company and very much want to see them forged into a fighting (and thinking) force.

I almost missed this part. I'd forgotten all about Lothrandir!!! O.O The last we saw of him was in the dungeons of Isengard, right? I always felt a bit teary-eyed when I left there.

[Cheery]

With so many rumors flying around regarding the unfortunate layoffs, it's hard to know what to believe and what not, especially when it's not told clearly. :/

Was there an official announcement of this that I missed? Or, is it all just rumor?

[frickinmuck]

You directly used the words "these communities".

Its individuals, as I assume you already know... not the entire PvMP and raiding communities.

That is absolutely true, and perhaps I should be saying, "the more strident among those communities" just to be really, really clear about what I mean. Especially since I myself fall into both communities to varying degrees. There are amazing people from all the communities in LotRO, in fact - I'd go so far as to say most people in this community are amazing. Even the ranters are probably normally great people who've been pushed too far. I referred to the communities the way I did because I was responding to what was said previously, about them showing a lot of restraint. That comment really rubbed me the wrong way, because it's made my heart a bit sick over the past few months to watch the negativity, bitterness and hatred that's been coming from the more strident among those communities () over the past few months. Particularly outside the forums on more public gaming sites and fansites, which just gives the game and the community a bad name.

Having said that, I regret responding in the way I did, because it's not a true reflection of how I feel. There's a lot more nuance to how I really feel, and a lot more diversity of opinions and approach among those communities than my response implied. Like I said, I've taken the recent harsh negativity and doom and gloom and "this game is over" kinds of comments and posts very, very hard. More so than I express in the forums here. It makes me despondent at times. So much so that some days I can't bear to login to the game or the forums. I love this game and I love this community, and I want to see a rally, and an attempt at constructive positivity and cautious optimism. For the sake of the game, we really need that as a community.

[Mar-Evayave]

Was there an official announcement of this that I missed? Or, is it all just rumor?

It is official that there were layoffs. How many, who, etc. is pure speculation. There was even speculation that Sapience had been fired. Obviously, that's not true. So if you see any rumors about specifics, take it with a grain of salt at best, and disregard it at worst.

Not in response to you, but a general notice for any interested:

I saw some concerns regarding what changes or improvements would be included in U13 for the Moors/PvMP and followed a bunny trail to this recent post made by Jinjaah (thanks to frickinmuck's excellent recap of the last Hobbits event):

Hey All,

I did in fact get lost in the Shire...so pretty this time of year...But on a serious note I have in fact been very busy and the recent events have changed some of our U13 plans for the Ettenmoors.

I am trying to put in some extra time and push through a lot of the things we talk about but here are some things that have been completed:
- The new PVMP damage types are now properly passing through physical mitigation. This means that the additional mitigation tacked onto audacity has been removed.
- We did some tweaks some things within the Ettenmoors like increasing the damage from the murder holes in TA from 500 common damage to % health.
- We did some stat adjustments to the Creep core virtues (on the character panel, the categories with squares next to them). Most of these have never been updated since Monsterplay came into existence, which was part of what caused such a discrepancy in stats between freeps and creeps.
- Trying to clear out a lot of bugs that have been lingering for far too long on the creep side.

There were some other things that we are working on that we can talk about at a later date since its fairly early in their testing. Some things I would still like to do is a damage / healing pass if time permits.

-Jinjaah

If any wish to comment on this, Jinjaah posted the above in the Where's Jinjaah? thread. I'd advise to reply in that thread, as that is the current location of the discussion.

It is several days old (and now 5 pages long) but there might be more information in there that some of you have not seen. I, for one, had been aware of the thread but not of its contents, so I can't really say further on what the conversation includes.

[Mar-Evayave]

That comment really rubbed me the wrong way, because it's made my heart a bit sick over the past few months to watch the negativity, bitterness and hatred that's been coming from the more strident among those communities () over the past few months. Particularly outside the forums on more public gaming sites and fansites, which just gives the game and the community a bad name.

Having said that, I regret responding in the way I did, because it's not a true reflection of how I feel. There's a lot more nuance to how I really feel, and a lot more diversity of opinions and approach among those communities than my response implied. Like I said, I've taken the recent harsh negativity and doom and gloom and "this game is over" kinds of comments and posts very, very hard. More so than I express in the forums here. It makes me despondent at times. So much so that some days I can't bear to login to the game or the forums. I love this game and I love this community, and I want to see a rally, and an attempt at constructive positivity and cautious optimism. For the sake of the game, we really need that as a community.

I'm going to go back on my word just slightly and say I am behind these statements 100%. Thank-you, frickinmuck. You read my, well, I guess my heart. My mind muddled it up somewhere between my heart-strings and my fingers, but you have expressed exactly my own feelings on the matter. So again, thank-you.

*quick edit* Rats. I'd meant to c/p the above and edit it into my previous post. I do hate it when I forget and accidentally double-post. *facepalm* Sorry for the double-post!

[Beaniemooch]

I do not respond to constructive feedback negatively. Rants, screeds, attacks and the like however, I have zero patience for. The forums have been dominated by such posts for months now. If I am sounding fed up, that is why.

Perhaps lack of addressing concerns, lack of respect from those who don't agree with our playstyle telling us "if you don't like it there's the door" accounts for us sounding fed up as well. And what may be a screed or rant to you may be frustration to someone else, or "fed up" as you say. Again, like has been said above, tone is in the eye of the reader.

I agree with a previous poster who said that if it was your playstyle being threatened and gutted you'd be up in arms. Just because it's somebody else's doesn't mean yours isn't next. How fed up will you be then?

What drives me in the game, both to play and to spend money, is raiding and instances. What drives you is something different. We all deserve to have content in the game that we enjoy. I don't think any one group deserves that more than any other.

[LethalLethality]

What drives me in the game, both to play and to spend money, is raiding and instances. What drives you is something different. We all deserve to have content in the game that we enjoy. I don't think any one group deserves that more than any other.

I'd say the content that drives the story forward (read: Open World PvE) should always get more attention than the things you do after you complete the current story (read: PvP and Raids). My personal opinion though. I certainly don't think all groups should be treated equally in terms of content release.

I would guess that the story and PvE is the driving force behind many, if not most, players. So I think those should be catered to first and foremost.

[Calta]

I wish people would do a basic empathy exercise prior to posting something like 'all blahblahs do/think blah' or 'blahblah community here, and on other sites are bletch' or even 'many/most blahblahs in GLFF are bleh'.

Try substituting a phrase like, old people, young people, black people, yellow people, women, gays, christians, jews, muslims, or any other group disciminated against/persecuted/scapegoated by the rest of their community, for the blahblah word you just used (whether it be PVPer soloer, raider, RPer, forum poster, casual, crafter.) Then read it back before you post.

Would you still attach your forum name to it? If not. Don't post it.

This may seem overdramatic but i firmly believe over generalising and using terms about playstyle that conflate to discrimination/lambasting/vitriol/vilifaction is divisive, damaging, and shows/promotes muddled thinking. (George Orwell reference.) Two legs good 4 legs bad mentality does not promote rational discussion, compassion, problem solving, or debate. All of which require respect for the other. It does make for excellent 'burn the witch' bonfires and escalating stone throwing by both sides though.

Our community is based around another book that spends a good deal of time pointing this out.

just my politically correct 2 cents worth.

[staveisle]

Didn't see that coming.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !

[staveisle]

I have seen the very bad side of the community

Perhaps you should note your posts have put you into that category for many who want to push Turbine to change the current direction of the game.

[TheCrossbow]

Perhaps lack of addressing concerns, lack of respect from those who don't agree with our playstyle telling us "if you don't like it there's the door" accounts for us sounding fed up as well. And what may be a screed or rant to you may be frustration to someone else, or "fed up" as you say. Again, like has been said above, tone is in the eye of the reader.

I agree with a previous poster who said that if it was your playstyle being threatened and gutted you'd be up in arms. Just because it's somebody else's doesn't mean yours isn't next. How fed up will you be then?

What drives me in the game, both to play and to spend money, is raiding and instances. What drives you is something different. We all deserve to have content in the game that we enjoy. I don't think any one group deserves that more than any other.

Actually, what most people don't realize is that all playstyles are being affected by the recent trends in the game. It isn't just "raiders" who's play style has taken a hit... particularly more emphasized with Helms Deep.

> There was not any real instance cluster (and doesn't seem to be) associated with Helms Deep. This is certainly the first time a traditional instance cluster or new skirmish hasn't at least been announced as "in the works". At least Riders of Rohan got the Erebor cluster.

> Big Battles are "OK" but fail to really appeal to raiders... neither are they quite as "solo friendly" as presented.

> There is no [new] method of solo progression like there was in previous expansions. RoR had Hytbold which served as something repeatable people could do once at the level cap... and it was equally accessible to everyone... with tangible rewards that even enticed raiders to do some of it.

> Aside from the housing inventory revamp... there has been nothing new/fresh really added to the game related to the RP aspects of the game. As much as I like being able to store 4x as much stuff in my housing chests... more storage isn't exactly RP-related.

IMHO... I approve of the class changes. I've stated my reasons for liking them so I won't restate them here. The landscape and quest content for Western Rohan are both pretty good. They convey the scenery and story of Rohan very well. The treachery of Wormtongue is very well emphasized.

But, Helms Deep does, unfortunately, give you the feeling of an expansion that... isn't quite complete. At least when they released Riders of Rohan, they gave us fair warning that it was only "half" of Rohan. Helms Deep feels like it is missing something to make it feel complete.

(Posted by Mar-Evayane)

Sorry, I had thought it was obvious that I was teasing. -.- If it's not even a duel in jest, then I won't bother responding to the rest, so that it can't be mistaken as anything even remotely akin to a duel.

I suppose, at this point, I am not really looking for a duel... either real or in jest. I am looking to have a discussion about the future of LOTRO. You were the one that referred to a "duel." I'm not looking to "duel" anyone. I just wanted to engage in a discussion highlighting the impact a healthy raiding community has on the game.

But, considering that you let such a minor part of my post put an end to the discussion... perhaps I would be correct in concluding that the points I made hit their mark... that facts I presented (regarding how much impact a good raiding community has on the game) were quite sufficient in pointing out that the lack of a decent raiding community in LOTRO will create a "gap" that can only be filled by reviving at least a decent raiding community...

So, then... could I conclude that you at least somewhat agree that Turbine should do a better job of supporting the "raiding community" they do have... just as they should do a better job of supporting ALL aspects of the game?