A Letter from Executive Producer Aaron Campbell

[Cheery]

List any part of LOTRO and you can divide the players into those who love it, those who hate it and everyone in between.
Those who love and those who hate are minorities.
Since we are all different, it is likely that we are all part of a few minorities.
Every one of those minorities are important because together, they add up to the whole.

In an online, multiplayer game, it is reasonable to assume that grouping is an integral part of the game. That players can choose to bypass much of the group content is to LOTRO's credit: more for everyone. But to decline to add group content is to narrow the appeal of the game.
So far, what I've read is that there will be no new multiplayer instances in 2014. I've also read that the contract is good to 2017. That leaves 2015 and 2016. Hard core raiders, casual raiders, infrequent raiders (I fall in here) and everyone who wants LOTRO to succeed and continue surely must hope that Turbine will have the resources and plans to add multiplayer instances in those years.

The same can be said for PVP. Personally, I don't. But it certainly seems to be part of the well-rounded, universally appealing MMO. Therefore, we must also hope that improvements and expansions to it are part of Turbine's plans.

Since we post on the forum, there's another minority. But a very important minority. Perhaps the minority that posts, that needs to ask and hope and suggest are those people that have invested more thought and more emotion and more time in the game than those who don't. What we say is surely important to Turbine.
Of course, what they can afford to do is a whole other question.

No one should be told to shut up and go away. No one should lump people into prejudice-generating groups. Everyone should avoid personal attacks.
And we should stick together to make Turbine aware that all our minorities are necessary for a successful game.

[Crell_1]

The part they refuse to accept is the "minority" part.

We're perfectly willing to accept the minority part. We also seem to tend to believe that even as a minority, we comprise a lot of the social-anchors, assistance, and other things which help keep people coming back and engaging, without which, they would cease spending money. We may not all be in the 0.15% or so of players (Not a typo) that likely provides 50% of the revenue, but I'd bet we do go a long way toward keep the rest of paying customers here. Alienating your power-users, long-time kin-leaders, and some of the most-dedicated players (*points over at the bounder's statue list) isn't a good long-term strategy.

If people still actively ran stuff, sure, keep it hard. But not now that so much is skipped over. When you can't even find a group for landscape group content, there is no point in keeping it hard. Making this stuff soloable is a good choice. EBs are, as I said, way too hard. So I don't see how they can be considered "dumbed down".

Prior to HD when the skills were still in place, I routinely enjoyed spending time in group areas. It was one of the few challenges left in the game that one could take place in prior to level cap. EBs are as a general rule, not hard. That's why players are advised to start them and go afk if they dont enjoy them, because they'll LIKELY do well enough anyway.

There is a lot more in the AH than stuff obtained via raids. Furthermore, so much of this is posted at such high prices, that typically only other raiders would be willing to pay that much to obtain the stuff. Why would a casual player pay so much for something they don't really need?

Well, for starters, until recently, most of the raid-loot was bind-on-acquire. The only bits that weren't were things like Starlits, stat-tomes, and Symbols of the , that's why there wasn't much raid-loot in the AH until ROR. When the loot system changed with ROR the system was so flooded with items that you couldn't even hardly GIVE stuff away from the raids, because the only things people wanted were the FAs (which were dropping as a 'bug'), and the 'Gold class items' which were bound on acquire.

Was your first run of ToO simples?

If memory serves, probably not as simple as it should have been. I'm pretty sure that was the run where one tank wasn't using an LI belt.

And yes, most of the raiders on Riddermark have left. I can point to specific other MMOs for a lot of them. The truth is, this wasn't the game they wanted any more, and the '12 players allowed' EB, is a far cry from what most of us would consider enjoyable raid content. I'd go so far as to say, most of them enjoyed Flight T2 pre-nerf (even though only two groups that I recall succeeded pre-nerf on our server) more than they enjoyed the EB.

I pop in occasionally, looking for some of them. If we had Mylotro anymore, I might be able to track down the others if they've started over or moved elsewhere for the PvP, but what I really want, is something that will bring them home to Riddermark, where they started, and where they were a vital part of a community that is floundering because of the loss of so many fine players, even if they weren't all social-examples to be looked up to all the time.

Having been elsewhere from time to time, I'll say that our GLFF isn't the best, nor is it the worst. Ignoring a few players, like most chat rooms or message boards, goes a long way.

[LFC4LIFE]

Which puts him, if true, far far FAR above some extremely vocal members of this community. If he's "short tempered" then they have no restraint left at all as far as their tempers are concerned.

I'm not naming particular members for one group or another group in terms of play style, but merely the play styles themselves. For example, PvMPers, raiders, soloers, casuals, hard-cores, etc. Which group seems to complain the most? Two of them, actually. PvMPers and raiders (and in this latter group would go not just those who do 12-mans and 24-mans, but also 3- and 6-mans as well; those players who look for end-game group content that is not "faceroll").

Whether they like the term or not, they have been labeled as the vocal minority. I don't see how anyone could dispute the "vocal" part. The part they refuse to accept is the "minority" part. And that is a stumbling block to them, and it is what causes a lot of flaming and disruption in otherwise normal conversations. They say, "everyone I know says..." or "just take a look at forum XYZ..." What they don't realize (whether intentionally or not) is that the number of members who use this forum is extremely low. Most people joined LOTRO so they can play a game. They don't care about any forum. All they want is to sit back and relax for a few hours with their friends. And unless they encounter a problem in game, what reason do they have to come here? We don't often see brand new members with no prior posts coming here to say, "oh my gosh I LOVE XYZ!!!" Usually when we get posts like that it is from members who have already posted on the forums before and who just want to share something they never noticed before. Usually when people come to the forums (when they otherwise might not) it is to complain about some bug they encountered and to get help fixing it.

In short, the amount of forum users is already a minority of the overall playerbase. And the amount of PvPers and raiders within that small group of forum users is even smaller. Like it or not, mock it all they want, those players are the minority -- and they are a very vocal minority at that. What's more is that they refuse to give up. And that's fine, but as the game continues on a path that leads away from what they want, they become more and more vocal and tempers start to flair and things get said that should never have been thought, much less said.

Very few members of those two groups approach the situation rationally. For example. Let's go up a few posts. Look at a few of them. Someone mentions a free-fall of the faceroll (dumbing down). As that member has only 2 posts, obviously he/she is not overly vocal on the forums. But that sentiment is widely shared among the PvPers and raiders. There was a whole thread about that very thing that went on for quite a while (and last I saw was still going on). Those are the standard response from members of those two groups. Compared to Post #311, which is extremely rational and polite.

Too many members of the PvMP and raiding groups are negatively vocal, turning normal convos into flame wars. They choose to do this. Maybe they think they won't be given any attention if they are calm and nice about it. A bit like a mob, really. Unfortunately, that mindset is what has gotten many of them in trouble and caused many others to be overlooked. I must say, I get tired of it. I see a new thread pop-up, I hover my cursor over the title to get a brief snapshot of the contents, I sigh and say to myself, "Oh, that argument again," and I skip over it. Sometimes even within that 2-liner snapshot, I get a glimpse of community guideline violations. If they can't even get past the first two lines without breaking some rule, I really don't want to read the rest of their post, and I can't imagine the staff members do either.

TL;DR

Who are you more likely to consider? The angry PvMPer/raider who is able to hold in his/her anger and give voice to his/her problems in a rational and polite manner? Or the angry PvMPer/raider who can't go more than a few words at a time without using words like "dumbing down," "faceroll," "EZmode," or "kindergarten"?

Frankly, there are often parts that are condemned with those descriptions that I (and many others) thoroughly enjoy, and let me tell you: we don't appreciate being considered dumb or in kindergarten. Our play styles differ, sure, that's okay with us. Maybe at times various things about the game are leaning in our favor. That doesn't mean that our play styles should be called dumb, faceroll, EZmode, etc. If we can accept their play styles and happily say, "sure, by all means let's see more of this!" why can't others do the same for us? We see people say, "Oh I love HD," and others who say, "Oh I hate HD", and the same for the class changes, the EBs, and a plethora of other topics. It doesn't mean one side is wrong and the other is right. They are just different. But why can't they all be different and yet remain polite and mature-minded at the same time?

Do you think that maybe the reason why you see many PvMP and Raiders being negative is because they have seen the areas of the game they enjoy been neglected?

PvMP players have been playing on the same map since day 1. Other then a few bits and pieces added it is essentially the same.

As for raiders, HD has effectively killed their game, do you expect them to be happy with this?

Many of these players come to the forums and voice their displeasure, concerns in a meaningful and none confrontational way only to be met with posts like this which is basically I am fine so what the hell is your problem?

[BangoTwinkletoes]

..... But why can't they all be different and yet remain polite and mature-minded at the same time?

And that includes calling people out as "stalkers" for having the audacity for replying to a couple of your very numerous forum posts? No?

Anyhow, what this community needs to do is tear itself away from the obsession it has with trying to put pidgeon-hole everyone's playstyle and pit that against others - solo'er vs raider, carebear vs uber-raider, completionist vs casual etc etc ad infinitum...

Rather, why don't the people on this thread focus themselves on addressing two very simple but rather significant questions:

- Has the strategy that Turbine has pursued for this game since late 2012 been a success?

- What is the right strategy to deliver success over the next 12 to 18 months?

I'm sure these two questions, specifically the latter are those which are weighing on the Exec Producer's mind right now, especially given that all the indicators are pointing to the answer to the first question being at best a "Mediocre" and at worse a "No". If that is indeed the answer then something fundamentally has to give with the overall direction the previous exec producer had been pursuing and change is needed. The sooner that this community stops having the arguments of the past two years and begins instead to accept that change is required and starts discussing what this change should be then all the better it will be for it.

As for whether the further development of PVMP and Traditional Instances & Raids should feature in the future strategy, given that Turbine sells LOTRO in a highly competitive marketplace, can someone please point out to me any other major MMOs that don't have PVMP and raiding as part of it's overall proposition? Or more to the point - what is going to get people such as me spending on this game once more instead of turning away and spending that money on other MMOs?

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

If these communities want to see more content to their liking, and more support from devs and other players, they are going to HAVE to find more constructive ways to make it happen. They are becoming so shrill that they are going to end up generating hostility and backlash where they would benefit more from solidarity and support. The person or group that finds a way to channel the interest/anger positively into a more constructive, community-minded outreach/outcry, and devises constructive suggestions and requests that are actionable by devs, will have about a thousand times more success than those who just sit here and type vicious screeds.

So, this is an interesting point of view. You mention that PvPers/raiders tend not to be constructive, or not proposing actionable suggestions, and that if they were, they would have more success in seeing these things come to fruition.

I'm afraid the reasonable suggestions/arguments get ignored just as much as the whining and moaning. For example:

1) https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...orgul-Sorcerer - possibly the best and most comprehensive suggestion for an Ettenmoors class that I've seen. This thread has been viewed by many and praised by many others, yet it hasn't been actioned by Turbine. Some of us hope that the 'secret surprise' is going to be the introduction of this, but I doubt it.

2) https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...hs-of-the-Dead - while this is a relatively new post (there was an earlier, longer one, with a detailed description on how a Paths of the Dead raid could play out), it shows that continued strength of feeling about raids comes out through suggestions, rather than moaning. A Paths of the Dead raid was suggested many times (I think the first time I saw it was during HD beta), yet Turbine chose to ignore the comprehensive suggestions regarding it.

3) I've also seen other suggestions, from these two communities, ranging from raids against the Easterlings, suggesting how Big Battles could be made more interesting, proposed revamps for the Ettenmoors etc.

The problem is that people propose these ideas, and no notice gets taken of them. This creates anger - many of the ideas are decent, and suggest ways in which raiding content in this game can be salvaged, and the fact that they are being ignored does rather make a mockery of the old Turbine slogan 'powered by our fans'. While I don't condone people getting angry and ranting on the forums (aside from in server forums, that's what they are for!), I just want to point out that clearly though out, comprehensive ideas get ignored equally as much as long rants on why the system sucks.

[Ithrien]

I'd say the content that drives the story forward (read: Open World PvE) should always get more attention than the things you do after you complete the current story (read: PvP and Raids). My personal opinion though. I certainly don't think all groups should be treated equally in terms of content release.

I would guess that the story and PvE is the driving force behind many, if not most, players. So I think those should be catered to first and foremost.

LOTRO is a full package, and that includes the instances and raids.

You're basically saying the build-up, the first steps, the earliest chapters, should get more attention than the endings, and you're fully aware that the "endings" (we're talking about instances and raids here) are exactly that - LOTRO's end-game, the content intended to keep players around after they've "finished the story"...

The stories lead you directly into 3, 6, and 12-man instances many times throughout the game. They lead you to the level cap. They lead you to end-game.

All content being designed for all players means everyone is being treated equally ("groups"), and we are all expected to "be raiders" because that is how you finish the stories, instance clusters/expansions are purchased for reasons you know, they are integral parts of the LOTRO PvE experience which has ALWAYS been designed not only for solo landscape questing, but there have always been small fellowship, fellowship, AND raid-sized group content on landscape among the quests which eventually lead you to instances, in addition to group instances themselves which finish (or in some cases continue) your story.

PvE is just PvE, if someone doesn't play certain parts of it, then that ONLY means they for whatever their reasons are, don't play certain parts of it. They're still a player just like everybody else regardless of which activities they choose to partake in.

Instances and raids (end-game in general) have always been fewer than landscape and Epic quests, and always will be for obvious reasons. I don't think anybody is expecting that to change. They don't need to be "treated equally in terms of content release" because there will always be fewer instances and raids released than just about anything else.

"Enough" is all that we need. They (instances, group content) simply need to exist, be balanced, and offer appropriate rewards.

Counting BB's and scales-to-95-instances, LOTRO end game has one of those three things going for it from where I'm standing.

I still like it mind you, but I'm disgusted by it, and with myself for still liking it. When I see groups facerolling through the trash to Durin's Bane, and then facerolling Durin's Bane (and lots of other things...) the level 65 me a few years ago bloodying inside OD to try to get challenge mode down, dies a little bit more every time.

Ideally for me:
Balance classes // PvE (this just needs to happen before anything else at all, IMO)
Scale another cluster (or several)

Then, with balanced and hopefully more controlled-capabilites and slightly more rigid "roles" for Freeps healthily "fitting" where they as classes in their intended trees/roles are "supposed to fit" and also comparing to other classes in and out of specializations for those roles appropriately ---- THEN they can work on new content based off of their new balance scheme.

[BangoTwinkletoes]

I'd say the content that drives the story forward (read: Open World PvE) should always get more attention than the things you do after you complete the current story (read: PvP and Raids). My personal opinion though. I certainly don't think all groups should be treated equally in terms of content release.

I would guess that the story and PvE is the driving force behind many, if not most, players. So I think those should be catered to first and foremost.

Worth remembering that the "top tier" instances and raids in LOTRO have always told the conclusion of the overall story for the volume / expac in question. This was certainly the case up to the end of Rise of Isengard though it fell away somewhat with RoR and was of course dropped in HD. However with SOA, Moria and the In their Absence Series the story was integral to understanding the context of the instances & raids. They were not just random fights where the party was ported into an arena to face a series of unconnected encounters.

[Elrantiri]

I'm not naming particular members for one group or another group in terms of play style, but merely the play styles themselves. For example, PvMPers, raiders, soloers, casuals, hard-cores, etc. Which group seems to complain the most? Two of them, actually. PvMPers and raiders (and in this latter group would go not just those who do 12-mans and 24-mans, but also 3- and 6-mans as well; those players who look for end-game group content that is not "faceroll").

"Seems" depends so much on your point of view. If you're looking for whining raiders and PvMPers then that's what you're going to find. If you look in globallff/glff you'll mostly see the "oldtimers", if you sit in GV/Grams you'll get PvMP whine, if you look in Ered Luin/Shire/Bree chats you'll find a different set of complainers.
What you should also notice is how they're treated. It's not like Turbine has been out saying "no new crafting/festivals/solo-areas/etc content planned for 2014", that is specifically instances/raiding that have been put into that box.

Whether they like the term or not, they have been labeled as the vocal minority. I don't see how anyone could dispute the "vocal" part. The part they refuse to accept is the "minority" part.

Why is this "minority" thing of any importance in this discussion?

[Mar-Evayave]

Perhaps you should note your posts have put you into that category for many who want to push Turbine to change the current direction of the game.

Before you make comments like that, perhaps you should read what I actually post. Anyone who puts me into that category either did not read or didn't want to accept what I had to say simply because I was the one who said it.

I do not like the direction of this game. Will it stop me from playing? No. End of story.

I suppose, at this point, I am not really looking for a duel... either real or in jest. I am looking to have a discussion about the future of LOTRO. You were the one that referred to a "duel." I'm not looking to "duel" anyone. I just wanted to engage in a discussion highlighting the impact a healthy raiding community has on the game.

But, considering that you let such a minor part of my post put an end to the discussion... perhaps I would be correct in concluding that the points I made hit their mark... that facts I presented (regarding how much impact a good raiding community has on the game) were quite sufficient in pointing out that the lack of a decent raiding community in LOTRO will create a "gap" that can only be filled by reviving at least a decent raiding community...

So, then... could I conclude that you at least somewhat agree that Turbine should do a better job of supporting the "raiding community" they do have... just as they should do a better job of supporting ALL aspects of the game?

My reference to a dual and then my subsequent drawing of a proverbial sword and crying Engarde! was an attempt to keep the conversation light and easy. People who can joke around with each other while having an argument are less likely to come to figurative blows; at least that was my hope.

As for your points, I didn't even read them. I read your original points (which I responded to) but didn't bother with your later remarks. You effectively squashed my attempts to keep the conversation friendly, so I felt no desire to proceed.

As to the last, I agree that all parts of this game make an impact. Raiders, PvMPers, soloers, whomever. No matter what the playstyle, all of it is important. What I disagree on is that raiders are the most important part. To that end, I agree that they should indeed do a better job of supporting it all.

I dislike EBs, and stated my reasons at various times, and the announcement that there would be no raids for 2014 was simultaneously worrying and understandable. Understandable because, if there is no xpac, then it makes sense, to a degree, to have no new raids. But even the refusal to scale pre-existing content makes the worrying part more worrying than it already was. Why not? That's my only question, and I have not seen it answered to my satisfaction. However, since so many of the more true raiders have already asked that question and more over and over, I felt no drive to voice it myself. Perhaps that was a failure on my part. I just didn't see how me asking it would make a lick of a difference.

I have to leave for work, but when I return, I'll read your previous points and respond to them. I just want to make it known that I fully wish that these conversations can maintain a lighthearted atmosphere.

Everyone else - be back in a few hours.

[Calta]

As a passionate advocate of group content and someone who has requested some harder sections of the landscape, just for those of us who equate adventuring in middle earth with a sense of danger, please point out where I have been rude, dismissive, or called any one group 'jerks' 'dumb' or the equivalent, whether it be to a soloer, casual, PVPer or whatever.

This is despite certain individuals here regularly dismissing my recent experiences with balance or my comments about my class as 'exaggerated', or 'not possible because i can't do it' or 'made up', and repeatedly questioning the truth of my anecdotes or analysis, implying i am being irrational, over-reacting or out right lying: all while ignoring my offers to supply evidence/screenshots or combat analysis. This happens a lot to those of us who find the game less than challenging and therefore less than immersive.

Groupers and raiders (my preferred playstyles) and me personally are frequently referred to as 'elitist', 'minority' and 'selfish'. Not to mention the never proven, one off statement, made by Sapience some years ago that 'raiders' -whatever that meant at the time- are a 'single digit minority.' (BTW 'single digit' is NOT 1%. It is up to and including 9%). What amuses me is that new content was made for that same single digit minority for some years after that statement. And there were no major layoffs at turbine during that time. Catering to the single digits didn't send the company broke. But finances are apparently an issue after no group content was developed for 6 months after the last expansion (RoR) and after no new traditional group content was offerred with this one. Just as we 'vocal minority' players predicted in RoR and HD betas. Something people may like to think about before hurling raider/single digit/vocal minority around as if it is an insult.

They say, 'honey catches more flies than vinegar.' But if if that cliche doesn't work for 6 months then the adage 'it's the squeaky wheel that gets the oil' comes into play. Many sweetly worded suggestions have been made on how to return to the game many of us loved-'gated' landscape areas, more instruction to new players through tutorials on things like damage types, individual offers to help players having difficulty with landscape content, forum grouping tools, how to improve epic battles for soloers, how to improve classes, how to fix PvP, plus the threads linked a few posts above: all ignored or dismissed.

So regardless of being called shrill, depressing, or overly vocal for our minority standing, many of us are going to keep squeaking and screeching and repetitively writing until we get oiled. ie until the game changes to give us what they gave us (and we paid for) for the previous seven years. We will keep asking for 'our share' of the game. And no one can stop us-no matter what names they call us or how much they wish they were really moderators and community spokesmodels..

On the dumbed down faceroll thing :
If I say, 'Checkers is a dumbed down/faceroll easy form of chess.' That is NOT the same as saying 'You people who like to play checkers are dumb.'

The former is an observation in colloquial language about the relative difficulty of two similar games. The latter is an insult. If one reads the first statement as personally insulting/flaming or breaching the guidelines, then that is something that is happening inside one's own head. A young chess player playing checkers with their sibling wouldn't see any insult with the first statement. However, their sibling, proud of their checkers' playing ability but not able to replicate their sister's ability to play chess, will often vociferously deny the truth of the first statement, and then say as a last resort, 'you called me dumb.' Not true, but it sure makes the chess playing sister look bad to the uninformed outsider. Make of that what you will. It's simply a real life example that came to mind.

TL: DR
to continue the analogy:
Checkers is not chess. Nor is it an adequate substitute for chess. If I have a chess board why am i being forced to play checkers and only checkers, suddenly, after years of happily playing chess? I'm not saying everyone has to play chess. They can play checkers on my chess board whenever they want. I'm just saying I like chess, I want to play chess, I paid to play chess, and someone took my pieces away and told me 'shut up and just play checkers. That's all you're getting.'
Analogy and wall of text over.

[Whart]

perhaps you should read what I actually post.

...

As for your points, I didn't even read them.

Interesting.

As a passionate advocate of group content and someone who has requested some harder sections of the landscape, just for those of us who equate adventuring in middle earth with a sense of danger, please point out where I have been rude, dismissive, or called any one group 'jerks' 'dumb' or the equivalent, whether it be to a soloer, casual, PVPer or whatever.

This is despite certain individuals here regularly dismissing my recent experiences with balance or my comments about my class as 'exaggerated', or 'not possible because i can't do it' or 'made up', and repeatedly questioning the truth of my anecdotes or analysis, implying i am being irrational, over-reacting or out right lying: all while ignoring my offers to supply evidence/screenshots or combat analysis. This happens a lot to those of us who find the game less than challenging and therefore less than immersive.

Groupers and raiders (my preferred playstyles) and me personally are frequently referred to as 'elitist', 'minority' and 'selfish'. Not to mention the never proven, one off statement, made by Sapience some years ago (before your join date) that 'raiders' -whatever that meant at the time- are a 'single digit minority.' (BTW 'single digit' is NOT 1%. It is up to and including 9%). What amuses me is that new content was made for that same single digit minority for some years after that statement. And there were no major layoffs at turbine during that time. Catering to the single digits didn't send the company broke. But finances are apparently an issue after no group content was developed for 6 months after the last expansion (RoR) and after no new traditional group content was offerred with this one. Just as we 'vocal minority' players predicted in RoR and HD betas. Something people may like to think about before hurling raider/single digit/vocal minority around as if it is an insult.

They say, 'honey catches more flies than vinegar.' But if if that cliche doesn't work for 6 months then the adage 'it's the squeaky wheel that gets the oil' comes into play. Many sweetly worded suggestions have been made on how to return to the game many of us loved-'gated' landscape areas, more instruction to new players through tutorials on things like damage types, individual offers to help players having difficulty with landscape content, forum grouping tools, how to improve epic battles for soloers, how to improve classes, how to fix PvP, plus the threads linked a few posts above: all ignored or dismissed.

So regardless of being called shrill, depressing, or overly vocal for our minority standing, many of us are going to keep squeaking and screeching and repetitively writing until we get oiled. ie until the game changes to give us what they gave us (and we paid for) for the previous seven years. We will keep asking for 'our share' of the game. And no one can stop us-no matter what names they call us or how much they wish they were really moderators and community spokesmodels..

Well said, as always. I'm beyond tired of the word 'minority' being used as a reason to dismiss my opinions. If I were the only person to play this game who wanted new 3-6-12 content, I would still have every right to say so as often as I felt like it, and I would deserve the same respect as those who don't want that content added to the game. I have a right to feel strongly about that opinion without being called a 'whiner'. I have a right to say that I won't spend another penny on this game until it adds new classic group content without being called a 'hater' and being told that I should leave. I have a right to say I like content that feels risky and makes me think about what I'm doing without being called an 'elitist jerk'. It's that attitude, way more so than the lack of interesting content and the absence of challenge/immersion in the newer areas, that makes me less and less interested in logging in anymore. The people left here don't seem to want a community at all if it doesn't conform to their specific agenda.

[ShireDweller]

I have to leave for work, but when I return, I'll read your previous points and respond to them. I just want to make it known that I fully wish that these conversations can maintain a lighthearted atmosphere.

The time-honored, Miss Manners-approved method of maintaining a lighthearted atmosphere is to agree to disagree, not to keep bludgeoning away at the same points incessantly in the hopes of wearing down any opposing views.

[Bobby_Crocker]

Having been in on-line discussions since the days of dial up/USEnet (any a.u.k. fans about?), I realize that it's rather pointless to try and sway someone's opinion in most cases. It's common for people to take the least charitable reading of their opponent's posts, intentionally or otherwise. So discussions either carry on with two sides of mis-characterizations (or downright straw men) tilting away at each other to no avail, or they get bogged down into microscopic minutiae and lose total sight of the actual points being made. Unfortunately I've forgotten this of late, and have been misdirecting many of my posts to be equally aimed at Turbine as well as fellow players. Since most players (including myself) probably won't change their opinions much based on what’s posted on these boards I'll just direct this solely at any Turbine staff who might be reading still. This is meant to be constructive not a rant, so I hope it will be read charitably.

I’ve not paid any money on the game since the pre-order of HD (which I do not regret, by the way). This is due to two simple reasons : the trivial level of danger in combat and the lack of any grouping content for level cap (not just canonical ‘raids’, but even 3/6 man stuff a la Moria instances). Despite having several alts who still haven’t reached level cap or even set foot in HD, I’m not playing at all at the moment – running through the linear HD quest lines yet again feels too tedious, especially in that there’s nothing to do once you hit the end (I don’t count BBs – they’re okay as a side attraction, not a substitute for end game content).
In the mean time I’ve been playing another game of yours, DDO (and paying a sub for it for now). I know that there are some complaints about that game being too easy at the level cap over there, too, but for where I’m at I’m able to find either an easy ‘run and gun’ adventure that takes 15 minutes or so, or I can dig in for the long haul and find something seriously challenging. Something happened to me recently in DDO that I haven’t seen in LotRO for far too long : I’ve failed quests because I didn’t think about my approach. In several quests on Elite mode I’d die several times in a row before I worked out how to do things right.

At first I was frustrated and a wee bit angry, but as I thought about it I welcomed the challenge. I died because I was so used to the current LotRO style play of running in with no thought other than ‘KILLLLL!” that I was doomed to failure. Once I took the time to step back, and plan/prepare for another go at things, when I did finally beat the instance there was a huge feeling of accomplishment. Even moreso in that I knew that at any time I could choose to simply run it at an easier setting if all I wanted to do was ‘get it over with’. But the game gave me options, and I could decide if I wanted that hard challenge or not – mostly I did, because I’ve missed that in my MMO playing for a long time now.

Perhaps some day I’ll get to the point where I’m not having fun in DDO anymore, and I’ll stop playing, or restrict myself to F2P messing about. The shine may well wear off that one, who knows. In the meantime I’m having fun and -this being the key - I'm paying you because of it. The reason for me saying this is that I have no vendetta against Turbine and haven’t walked away forever from LotRO. As LotRO stands today there is no challenge (beyond the silly stuff like soloing 6/12 man runs), and so my money is currently going to a game where I can find that. If LotRO ever introduces that challenge again I’d start paying for it again (regardless of what I do/don’t do with DDO). So consider me a data point, stating in unambiguous words (which are meant respectfully) that the lack of challenge and lack of end-game group content of any size means my entertainment dollars won’t go to LotRO – and I’m hoping that’s just a temporary thing.

[Sapience]

Well said, as always. I'm beyond tired of the word 'minority' being used as a reason to dismiss my opinions. If I were the only person to play this game who wanted new 3-6-12 content, I would still have every right to say so as often as I felt like it, and I would deserve the same respect as those who don't want that content added to the game. I have a right to feel strongly about that opinion without being called a 'whiner'. I have a right to say that I won't spend another penny on this game until it adds new classic group content without being called a 'hater' and being told that I should leave. I have a right to say I like content that feels risky and makes me think about what I'm doing without being called an 'elitist jerk'. It's that attitude, way more so than the lack of interesting content and the absence of challenge/immersion in the newer areas, that makes me less and less interested in logging in anymore. The people left here don't seem to want a community at all if it doesn't conform to their specific agenda.

I wanted to call out this post because Whart has a point. I also wanted to point out the same is true for everyone who disagrees with the statement. Or partially agrees. Or feels as strongly about something else entirely. They do not deserve to be called 'fanboi' or 'sycophant' or 'suck up' or 'apologist' because they choose not to support your views or hold views counter to them. Nor do they deserve to be called 'noobs' or 'lame' or 'fail players' because they don't wish to participate in the same type of content you do.

[Edlenn]

the trivial level of danger in combat and the lack of any grouping content for level cap (not just canonical ‘raids’, but even 3/6 man stuff a la Moria instances). .

Figured I'd add one more voice to the discussion about difficulty. As I see it there were three big changes introduced with HD - class changes which I've come to accept and enjoy (on some classes), BB which can be fun in groups, and the across the board downgrading of difficulty. It's not clear to me why this was added to the game or if it was just an unintended consequence of the other changes but it does make combat related play substantially less enjoyable for me, both at 95 and on my lowbie alts. FYI I enjoy raiding but also concerts, RP, exploring and spending time in Middle Earth but in the end I'm a gamer as I suspect most of us are and I enjoy the satisfaction of accomplishing something that's a bit of a challenge. OK to wrap this up I feel that the difficulty level before HD was about right and would like to see it restored. Thanks.

[LethalLethality]

Interesting.




Well said, as always. I'm beyond tired of the word 'minority' being used as a reason to dismiss my opinions. If I were the only person to play this game who wanted new 3-6-12 content, I would still have every right to say so as often as I felt like it, and I would deserve the same respect as those who don't want that content added to the game. I have a right to feel strongly about that opinion without being called a 'whiner'. I have a right to say that I won't spend another penny on this game until it adds new classic group content without being called a 'hater' and being told that I should leave. I have a right to say I like content that feels risky and makes me think about what I'm doing without being called an 'elitist jerk'. It's that attitude, way more so than the lack of interesting content and the absence of challenge/immersion in the newer areas, that makes me less and less interested in logging in anymore. The people left here don't seem to want a community at all if it doesn't conform to their specific agenda.

Some do overuse the term, but there are others that don't. Myself, I rarely use the term unless someone uses the argument that "If it wasn't such a huge problem, there wouldn't be nearly the outcry there is." The response to that is an honest, it's a vocal minority you're referring to. It's generally the exact same group of people complaining in every thread they can get away with doing it in.

I never mean it in a condescending tone, but as a means to let that person know that while it is a problem for some folks, the people you're referring to are always the same group, thus making it a "Vocal Minority". Not a minority of the playerbase, which the forums can, in no way, come close to representing. There may be a couple hundred different users on the forums, but thousands of players. You can't use that as an indicator of who wants what.

In other words: Stop trying to make your argument seem more valid by saying so many others agree. State your opinion and leave it at that. Don't state your opinion and try to speak for a large portion of the userbase.

[bobbylobs]

It's generally the exact same group of people complaining in every thread they can get away with doing it in.

Thats absolute nonsense, yes the same people are in every thread like this , but to say they are the ONLY people saying those things is 100% false, every single thread on this topic has new people agreeing that they want more group content and an increase in challenge, its the people who are arguing against that , that remain the same, the same 4 or 5 people in every thread, go back over the threads on this subject there are 100s of different people saying they want group content and an increase in challenge and I am wiling to bet they outweigh people saying the opposite by 10 to 1.

EDIT:
just to refer you to some posts in this very thread to support this, check posts:-

7,14,28,46,60,85,90,126,128,14 3,154,158,159,235,250,252,300, 311,314,324,353,365

They are all posts from people with fairly low post counts all asking for a challenge/raids/pvp content, and thats just from this thread, kind of goes against your "It's generally the exact same group of people complaining" doesnt it? It IS NOT the same people complaining at all, is a growing number of people asking for improvements to the game in areas they enjoy playing, but hey its fine if they leave isnt it?

[frickinmuck]

It seems most everyone missed my point, or that I didn't adequately communicate it, or that they just really disagree. My bottom line point is, we are a community. When did we lose sight of that, and how to we get it back?

Also, people who are using my notes about tone and twisting them into excuses to be openly rude, again, you really missed my point.

The problem is that people propose these ideas, and no notice gets taken of them. This creates anger - many of the ideas are decent, and suggest ways in which raiding content in this game can be salvaged, and the fact that they are being ignored does rather make a mockery of the old Turbine slogan 'powered by our fans'. While I don't condone people getting angry and ranting on the forums (aside from in server forums, that's what they are for!), I just want to point out that clearly though out, comprehensive ideas get ignored equally as much as long rants on why the system sucks.

How do you know they're being ignored? What are you expecting to get out of those posts that you aren't getting? The devs read the forums all the time, and it's almost 100% certain some of them have read these posts. However, what seems like a good idea to you may not be implementable for various reasons that are beyond their control. That doesn't mean the ideas won't be taken onboard and given some serious consideration. Hell, I think it's valuable to put ideas and thoughts out there regardless of whether they get used, or responded to by a dev. One may be a spark for them, that leads them down a really cool path. Or maybe the ideas are being implemented, but they aren't at liberty to say. You have no way of knowing how ideas are being received (You mentioned someone suggested adapting BB to PvMP. Did you not see the forums when it was announced catapults were being added to the Moors? The outcry and backlash against catapults was incredible). Even if they aren't being used in any way, I think it's valuable to share ideas, even just to show the passion and depth of interest the players have in various aspects of the game.

Enthusiasm is contagious (actually, ALL moods are contagious, which is why there is often such a backlash against those spreading negativity), and if players are showing enthusiasm, interest, inspiration and collaboration, that will wear off not only on the rest of the community, but also on the devs and everyone involved in the game. We are responsible for our own state of mind, and for what mark we leave on those around us. What role do you want to play in the LotRO community? One of rallying, bolstering and strengthening it, or one of tearing it apart? Because a lot of the more shrill among us have been doing the latter, perhaps without even being fully aware of it. Claims that the game is over, claims that the devs don't care, claims that anyone who is still happy with the game is somehow less valid, claims that there is no good content in the game, claims that there IS no content (I've oddly been seeing these claims a lot) - all of these types of claims, particularly when accompanied by openly insulting language, have the effect of fracturing our community.

I've said this before, but if all these doomsayers are correct, and the game IS in its last days, do we really want to spend those last days destroying what's left of the community? Maligning and hating on each other? Or would we rather make the most of what we have left? To me it seems, some would revel in watching everything burn. And tragically, in doing so they talk about how much they care, about "the game they love."

If we are going to stick around, it seems to me that we'd all benefit from trying to build rather than destroy. Find a way to have a positive impact, and we'll quickly see a shift in our feelings, our attitudes and our experiences. Because caring isn't something you say, it's something you DO. Caring isn't about shouting each other down and calling each other names and forecasting the demise of everything we hold dear. It's about helping each other, supporting each other, acknowledging and accepting any differences and building connections, it's about finding a corner of the community we can make a positive difference in, and taking action to that effect. If Frodo could take the ring to Mount Doom, despite his seeming insignificance and a constant uncertainty of where he was going and what was going to happen, surely we can soldier through a time of uncertainty and upheaval with a better attitude than "it's all over."

I agree with a previous poster who said that if it was your playstyle being threatened and gutted you'd be up in arms. Just because it's somebody else's doesn't mean yours isn't next. How fed up will you be then?

My playstyle is threatened almost every time there is a major change to the game, because I have an extremely diverse playing style. I love raiding, I love solo play, I especially love challenge. When the class changes came along, I was gutted when I first tried them out in beta. I felt disoriented and totally freaked out. But through beta the devs (at least the ones I had the opportunity to interact with) did a stellar job of building on the classes, improving and taking feedback from the players, and at times implementing it almost without alteration. None of that changed the fact that my "working every skill on the bar" playing style was no longer really viable in the way I'd grown to love over the years. Many of the crazy tricks I used to enjoy pulling were gone forever. But I adapted, and I've come to really enjoy the new versions of my characters.

Another aspect of my playing style is "riding the edge of death" in landscape play. I've always enjoyed trying group content in solo play - Dol Dinen and Angmar were always favourite zones, for example - and I always quest in orange and red zones. There was awhile there when the balance was so far off that red zones felt more like green ones, and I could run around Dol Dinen and solo all the quests without breaking a sweat. It has gradually been improving, but for awhile there I was getting really frustrated. It's still not 100%, but I trust that it will continue to improve.

And yeah, raids. Raids are probably the aspect of the game that excite me the most. When a new raid comes out it's like Christmas (if I were someone who liked Christmas). It's not just about the challenge, or about the rewards, it's about the collaboration and the camaraderie. To me, it is essential that there be content that requires us to know our classes, and pull them together to complete something we could not achieve separately. Roles we must play, and play well, in order to succeed as a group. I trust that we will see more such content in the future. In the meantime, I still enjoy all the old raids and continue to do them when I get the opportunity. I know it helps that I have a lot of alts so that I don't have to do them on my end-game characters. I recognize that for those who have only got 95s, there is a dearth of challenging raid content. But patience will serve us, I do believe.

I don't know, I can't speak for Turbine, but I think Big Battles were meant to be the new end-game content for this most recent expansion. They were meant to give us a way of playing together through challenging group content. Unfortunately, the focus isn't on class skills alone, but on a new mechanic that many have rejected and dislike. I get that. I understand that. But people who claim Turbine doesn't care about end-gamers need to acknowledge that they built an entire new system - a very sophisticated one - with new achievements, levels and skills to build on, playable by multiple group sizes, that tied in beautifully with the lore and that even the most abject hater must surely admit, is stunning from a visual/interactive perspective.

I doubt very much they were banking that end-gamers would hate the new system, and reject it as any kind of viable end-game content. I doubt they anticipated so much hate from the raiding community. If there is an empty place there in that expansion, I don't believe it's the result of not giving a goat dropping about the raiding community. If anything, it was a miscalculation. But raiders need to at least acknowledge that a bone has been thrown their way. A very expensive, highly sophisticated one. The fact that they don't like that particular bone doesn't change the fact that for Turbine, they put something really big out there, that they put a lot of work into making viable for all playing styles, all levels.

So all these raiders who are freaking out and saying there's no end-game content, I don't think that was by design. It's a bit unfair and inaccurate to say Turbine doesn't care, hasn't tried, has abandoned end-gamers and raiders. If BB had been loved and adopted by end-gamers, we would not be having this conversation. It's an unfortunate situation, but let's try to be fair and reasonable about what really went down, and stop pretending that whole swathes of the player base are being ignored.

As for end-game, I've said it before: PvMP is by far the most challenging, exciting area of the game right now (that's probably always the case). If end-gamers need something to do while they wait for more raids, I think that's a great place to start. Jinjaah has recently been in the forums talking about some of the work being done on that area, so it seems it is getting some love.

[Mar-Evayave]

We're perfectly willing to accept the minority part.

I totally agree. The Bounder's statue is a perfect example. Yes, it may involve a lot of work, but they should have stuck to their word even after they learned just how much work it would take. Just to note, though, that I was referring to the vocal minority. The vocal minority does not include all raiders or PvMPers.

Prior to HD when the skills were still in place, I routinely enjoyed spending time in group areas. It was one of the few challenges left in the game that one could take place in prior to level cap. EBs are as a general rule, not hard. That's why players are advised to start them and go afk if they dont enjoy them, because they'll LIKELY do well enough anyway.

I think the problem there is that, if I'm understanding you correctly, you were soloing old content. As in, taking your lvl 95 solo through Carn Dum or Urugarth or something. I've also done that and enjoyed the challenge. But I'm referring to landscape content that can't be soloed on level. There are a number of things in Angmar (like the spider raid) that can't be soloed on level and no one groups for it on level (or at least, I've never seen it happen on our server). If content is not actively run on level because it's too hard and there's not enough interest, then it shouldn't be that hard.

Well, for starters, until recently, most of the raid-loot was bind-on-acquire. The only bits that weren't were things like Starlits, stat-tomes, and Symbols of the , that's why there wasn't much raid-loot in the AH until ROR. When the loot system changed with ROR the system was so flooded with items that you couldn't even hardly GIVE stuff away from the raids, because the only things people wanted were the FAs (which were dropping as a 'bug'), and the 'Gold class items' which were bound on acquire.

True, if they are dropping that much the cost wouldn't even be high. The loot system does change things.

Do you think that maybe the reason why you see many PvMP and Raiders being negative is because they have seen the areas of the game they enjoy been neglected?

PvMP players have been playing on the same map since day 1. Other then a few bits and pieces added it is essentially the same.

As for raiders, HD has effectively killed their game, do you expect them to be happy with this?

Many of these players come to the forums and voice their displeasure, concerns in a meaningful and none confrontational way only to be met with posts like this which is basically I am fine so what [...] is your problem?

Most definitely yes. You've hit the nail squarely on the head. I'm not happy either, and I have seen many of those players come and behave maturely. It's when they come with profanity and other vulgarity. There have been many that don't check their emotions at the door, and when they don't get an answer they like, they drop whatever restraint they had altogether.

It's vaguely like something I witnessed the other day. A customer received special discounts (30% off everything every time he/she shops in a given store). Why? Because that customer threw an adult's version of a temper tantrum. Rather than lose that customer's business, he/she was given that special discount. A lot of people have the mentality that if they scream loud enough, they'll get the results they want. As my example shows, that does unfortunately happen, but it shouldn't happen. And sometimes it may just be the case that the results come but not fully developed. Rushing content into a game to "please the crowds", so to say. We've seen what happens when content gets rushed. And it's also important to remember that we are not even all adults. There are probably a lot of teenagers who play these games as well, so they don't even have any adult maturity to draw upon.

"Seems" depends so much on your point of view. If you're looking for whining raiders and PvMPers then that's what you're going to find. If you look in globallff/glff you'll mostly see the "oldtimers", if you sit in GV/Grams you'll get PvMP whine, if you look in Ered Luin/Shire/Bree chats you'll find a different set of complainers.
What you should also notice is how they're treated. It's not like Turbine has been out saying "no new crafting/festivals/solo-areas/etc content planned for 2014", that is specifically instances/raiding that have been put into that box.

Why is this "minority" thing of any importance in this discussion?

On the first:

Yes, of course. You can find bad apples in any group or any channel. But treatment is a two-way street. Turbine made a decision. There was (and still is) an uproar. That uproar has continued for months, parts of it very heated. I think we all probably want to know why there aren't any raids for 2014. If I were to make my guess, it would relate to the same reason we aren't having an expansion this year.

In the past, I have seen complaints about not liking the grind every time the level cap rises. People say they want more time. A lot of complaining has been done about past buggy content. Even in the raiding group. For example: "Why do you keep giving us buggy raids? How about fixing the broken stuff before giving us new stuff?" In a more recent (PvMP) example: "Catapults? Who wants those? How about you fix the whole balance fiasco and stop Exploit A, before you start throwing in new stuff?!"

So then Turbine stops for a moment, considers the situation, and says, "Hm, maybe we should skip this year's expansion. How about we go back to our old stuff and fix it up? There are some earlier quest packs people have been begging to have revamped. Oh, and they've wanted multiple attachments for years." And so forth. So they decide to skip an xpac, and focus on fixing and improving on older content (with the intention of returning to xpacs and raids in 2015). But now people are saying, "Who cares about the old stuff? We want new raids!" And the whole thing starts over again. Conflicting interests even within a minority makes things like this difficult. It sure would have been nice, when 75 was the cap, if Draig didn't bug out so much. :/

All hypothetical, of course, but it wouldn't at all surprise me if the above was the situation.

As to the second:

Vocal minority is a term that I believe came up during HD beta. At the time (IIRC) it referred in part to those opposed to the class changes and in part to swap from traditional raids to EBs for the xpac. Since then it has morphed at least in a small way to include parts of the PvMP group (most notably seen when conversation rises about exploits and balance, etc). But primarily, at the moment, it's more about the raiders. On it's own, it's not even a negative descriptor. It's not bad to be vocal, and it certainly isn't bad to be of a minority. So it has to be read with a grain of salt and the understanding that it is not encompassing the entire group of raiders. It's referring to a specific portion of them. A minority (the negatively vocal) within a minority (the vocal) within a minority (of the forum) within a minority (of the game). A very small portion, in other words.

However, because this 4th generation of players are so prolific in their writing here on the forums, that it often crowds other stuff out. This thread is an example. Roughly a dozen pages or so, but now that this issue has been raised, it's really picked up the pace of the conversation. Oddly enough, this topic didn't even start in regards to any of this. It began in regards to a mentioning of Sapience's perceived short temper.

Interesting.

You have taken my words out of context. There is a WORLD of a difference between

A) Replying without reading (which is what stav and others have done -- including saying I'm calling out raiders; if people read my posts clearly, they'd see that I repeatedly say that I am a raider; why would I call myself out?)
and
B) Not replying without reading (which is what I did with Crossbow; I didn't read it, so I didn't respond to it)

Before you make comments like that, perhaps you should read what I actually post.
[...]
As for your points, I didn't even read them. I read your original points (which I responded to) but didn't bother with your later remarks. You effectively squashed my attempts to keep the conversation friendly, so I felt no desire to proceed.
[...]
I have to leave for work, but when I return, I'll read your previous points and respond to them.

As I made no response to the newer points, I had no need to read them. The problem would rise if I chose to respond to them without reading them. And now that I'm home from work, I can go back and read the points and respond to them. I didn't respond to them the first time around because I didn't read them.

Well said, as always. I'm beyond tired of the word 'minority' being used as a reason to dismiss my opinions. If I were the only person to play this game who wanted new 3-6-12 content, I would still have every right to say so as often as I felt like it, and I would deserve the same respect as those who don't want that content added to the game. I have a right to feel strongly about that opinion without being called a 'whiner'. I have a right to say that I won't spend another penny on this game until it adds new classic group content without being called a 'hater' and being told that I should leave. I have a right to say I like content that feels risky and makes me think about what I'm doing without being called an 'elitist jerk'. It's that attitude, way more so than the lack of interesting content and the absence of challenge/immersion in the newer areas, that makes me less and less interested in logging in anymore. The people left here don't seem to want a community at all if it doesn't conform to their specific agenda.

Honestly, I'm tired too. I get tired of my opinions being dismissed because people are prejudiced against me. I've been labeled a "fanboi". It gets really discouraging. Sometimes, in the case of raids and whatnot, it doesn't matter how many times I say that I am a raider. I still get labeled as someone who is calling out raiders and painting them all with a black brush.

I gave an example earlier in this discussion in which I hovered my cursor over a thread title a while back, saw a 2-liner preview of the OP, and moved right on. The thread topic might have had merits, but there was so much profanity in those first 2 lines that I didn't even bother. That's why I feel that people like that are shooting themselves in the foot. There is a right way to do things and there is a wrong way to do things. Don't like something? Say so, and keep saying so. But don't say so with extreme amounts of profanity and other vulgarity.

[Maximilan]

Thanks for all your concerns and your well-wishes.

I want to provide a fairly complete picture of our goals for this year and next year, so I'm holding off on any partial answers. Bear with me for now.

The team is focused on pushing U13 through to code freeze and preparing for LOTRO's 7th Anniversary. If you've noted my style on DDO, I prefer to be direct and also to be sure when I commit the team to a direction. I will have a lot more to say as we get closer to the Anniversary.

It's good to be back!

I am pleased that you are back and remember your previous reign as Lord of LotRO! I look forward to the coming changes and have previously noted that you communicate more like an Engineer than an Sales/Marketing type. BTW that's a compliment in my book

[Mar-Evayave]

I don't know, I can't speak for Turbine, but I think Big Battles were meant to be the new end-game content for this most recent expansion. They were meant to give us a way of playing together through challenging group content. Unfortunately, the focus isn't on class skills alone, but on a new mechanic that many have rejected and dislike. I get that. I understand that. But people who claim Turbine doesn't care about end-gamers need to acknowledge that they built an entire new system - a very sophisticated one - with new achievements, levels and skills to build on, playable by multiple group sizes, that tied in beautifully with the lore and that even the most abject hater must surely admit, is stunning from a visual/interactive perspective.

I doubt very much they were banking that end-gamers would hate the new system, and reject it as any kind of viable end-game content. I doubt they anticipated so much hate from the raiding community. If there is an empty place there in that expansion, I don't believe it's the result of not giving a goat dropping about the raiding community. If anything, it was a miscalculation. But raiders need to at least acknowledge that a bone has been thrown their way. A very expensive, highly sophisticated one. The fact that they don't like that particular bone doesn't change the fact that for Turbine, they put something really big out there, that they put a lot of work into making viable for all playing styles, all levels.

What's more, I don't think they thought that non-end-gamers would hate the new system either. As the EBs are available from lvl 10 on up (much like skirms for 20+), I think they hoped to draw the more solo (or merely low-level) players into the fold. I personally feel that the system has been rejected just as strongly by those players. And it has been mentioned in the past that it can take a year to complete an Instance Cluster. If they hoped EBs would remain hugely popular for quite a while, they wouldn't have started planning new content anyway. And if they had already begun plans on the current schedule of events for 2014, that doesn't really leave them any room to fit in any emergency raids. Pure speculation on my part, of course; I would welcome any correction made by a staff member.

I am not disputing that raiders aren't the only people who take advantage of the crafting system. I am merely making the point that they are the "group" who has the most natural incentive.

By default, raids, instances, and PvP... those things tend to make you want to seek out ways to make your character the best they can be... or at least decent enough to survive. Therefore, those activities tend to have people looking for whatever crafted items you can get... or whatever other top gear is available.

In essence... the whole supply/demand aspect comes into play much more for those who more regularly engage in group content.

In LOTRO, the person who does not regularly participate in group content may still want/use the good crafted/dropped gear... but they just don't have that built-in incentive that grouping provides.

Therefore, "raiders" are the ones who are most likely to use whatever methods are available to acquire that gear...

I guess it is a matter of perspective. If crafters are not given their own category, then yes, raiders may indeed utilize it more than others. Soloers don't have as strong a need for "the best" or even for "the quickest" way to meet their ends. They can, if they so desire, take a relaxed and casual approach to, well, everything. Raiding, on the other hand, is somewhat of a competitive business. A lot of thought and effort must go into their approach to new raids (and similar content). Same with PvMPers, which is an even bigger competition. In raiding we are all on the same team. In PvMP, the freeps are trying to beat the creeps, and the creeps are trying to beat the freeps. I had approached this from the perspective that crafters had their own category. The same more or less goes for the example of Star-Lit crystals.

There are a couple things in this section that I need to address...

1. Most of the really good "raiding" groups will ask people to have max virtues and good gear for a reason. If someone has high numbers in their virtues and good gear, chances are they have a good grasp of their character.

2. Most of the really good "raiding" groups can come across as "elitist" simply because they actually expect people to meet some standards. And, most often, (not saying you are guilty of this) the complaints about raiders being "elitist" comes from people who just don't like the idea of being held to a higher standard.

Regarding those 2 things... if you want to participate in some really good raids, you are going to have to learn to accept that the leaders of those groups expect certain things out of their groupies. Some of those expectations may go unspoken... which is (IMHO) the fault of the leader for not spelling out those expectations especially when someone is new(er) to the group.

There are/were some really good raiding kinships in LOTRO. I can tell you, without a doubt, all of them have higher expectations of their members... for good reason. And, the majority of those kinships are able to walk away completing some pretty difficult raids because their members came prepared.

So, please do not paint raiders as jerks when they are simply asking you to meet higher standards.

As far as the coarse language and crazy antics... the really good groups will tolerate a little bit... but most of them are good folks who are quite willing to keep things clean when asked.

Again, there seems to be a little bit of an effort to apply the actions of a few bad apples to raiders as a whole.

You might take notice that the real "jerks" in MMOs tend not to last very long anyways...

1) It seems a little discriminatory, though, to not even give a person with low virtues and less than good gear a chance. People should be given a chance. Sure, they may turn out to be crummy raiders, but on the other hand they may be really good.

2) The ones that would come across as elitists, for me personally, are those who do the stuff in #1. And I would hope I'm not perceived as that. I purposefully hold myself to a higher standard as a matter of principle. I fail at times, but I am a perfectionist and have been for well over a decade. In real life I often get compared to my brother. He has a much higher IQ than I have, and a nearly photographic mind. He did not have to work hard to get good grades. However, I can take pleasure in knowing that, while I may not be as smart as him, at least I got better grades.

If one of those raiding kinships have high expectations, then that is fine. What I'm talking about are PUGs where the leaders tell other people to be inspectable. People they don't even know. They judge those players based purely on appearance, and without giving them a chance.

With the language and whatnot, I don't mind profanity. I don't personally partake in it, and if it's extreme then I will ask it to tone down. But I was speaking more about the vulgarity of the discussion than the profanity. Talking about certain parts of the anatomy with such sick fascination is repulsive.

Well, crafting does have a direct impact... as demonstrated above. But, my point is that keeping around a healthy community of raiders does tend to have a positive impact on other aspects.
[...]
While other aspects can be used repeatedly... a healthy raiding community tends to promote a longevity that RP, crafting, music, etc don't. Those other things just lack the natural draw... especially once you reach the level cap and are looking for things to do.

Indeed. I would go so far as to say that it's a multi-laned street. It's like a body. The heart does no good if the brain isn't there. The lungs would serve no purpose if we had no way to breathe in oxygen. They all serve a purpose, and when one suffers it does no good to the rest. As another example, I'm coming down with a cold. I feel crummy all over. I can tell myself all day that it's just a runny nose, but colds are very good at ruining the rest of the body. What was a runny nose an hour ago is now a runny nose, a foggy head, and an aching body. I wish I didn't have to go to work tomorrow.

[LethalLethality]

Thats absolute nonsense, yes the same people are in every thread like this , but to say they are the ONLY people saying those things is 100% false, every single thread on this topic has new people agreeing that they want more group content and an increase in challenge, its the people who are arguing against that , that remain the same, the same 4 or 5 people in every thread, go back over the threads on this subject there are 100s of different people saying they want group content and an increase in challenge and I am wiling to bet they outweigh people saying the opposite by 10 to 1.

EDIT:
just to refer you to some posts in this very thread to support this, check posts:-

7,14,28,46,60,85,90,126,128,14 3,154,158,159,235,250,252,300, 311,314,324,353,365

They are all posts from people with fairly low post counts all asking for a challenge/raids/pvp content, and thats just from this thread, kind of goes against your "It's generally the exact same group of people complaining" doesnt it? It IS NOT the same people complaining at all, is a growing number of people asking for improvements to the game in areas they enjoy playing, but hey its fine if they leave isnt it?

And you've missed my ENTIRE point by focusing on one sentence from my previous post. The forums are a minority. The most vocal of those in the forum are an even more vocal minority. I never said it wasn't a problem, but that it's generally the same people who go from thread to thread. Note the word "Generally" in that sentence. So, some of those you posted have low post counts. Others have hundred or thousands. All I know is I, again "generally", see the same names and/or new accounts complaining which I take to be alts.

Kinda hard for me to accept a forum account complaining about endgame who joined three months ago because there's no proof that that person is just someone who didn't use the forum or if they're hiding behind an alt or using multiple accounts to inflate the number of people complaining. Perhaps it's a flaw on my part, to put less weight on a brand new account, but such is the price for creating an account when you have a problem only.

But still, I will repeat: Everyone in the forums is a minority because those who use the forums are a small percentage of those playing the game. The ones who yell and scream the most are the Vocal Minority, and nothing they say will tell me they're in the majority because I know the only ones who have the numbers are Turbine. Once more, I'm a minority, you're a minority, everyone in the forums is a minority because, in essence, the voices on the forums are a fraction of the playerbase.

So, to those claiming they speak for the majority, I repeat: No, you're not. You're speaking for yourself and a handful of other people you know agree with you. You have no way of knowing how many people you're speaking for. The only times I use the term "Minority" (outside of this particular discussion), as I stated in my previous post, is when someone claims to be speaking for a large number of people.

[bobbylobs]

If one of those raiding kinships have high expectations, then that is fine. What I'm talking about are PUGs where the leaders tell other people to be inspectable. People they don't even know. They judge those players based purely on appearance, and without giving them a chance.
(

Unfortunately that is the chance you take with PUGS, however I would say in Lotro I have encountered far more friendly and accepting pugs than unfriendly ones, but also that is one of the real downsides of losing so many raiding and healthy shall we call them "grouping" kinships, the ones that arent hardcore, but do raid or group together every night , the kins that take in new inexperienced players and show them the ropes, gear them up,go deeding with them, teach them the basics through 3 mans and 6 man stuff and then add them to the raid runs.

Due to the lack of group content much of those kinships have died so people have little choice but to start their grouping life in pugs, some get put off by a bad experience some dont even attempt it due to pre conceptions(maybe from other games) and that all adds to a decline in group activity.

I am a firm believer that if you invest in the kinship system to create a healthy active kin based community (and yes the kinship revamp proposal that is so famous would be a BIG step in the right direction) and then provide them with the engaging content we used to get, then a, lotro's population would sky rocket and b,you would be surprised just how popular the group content would become.

[Crell_1]

1) It seems a little discriminatory, though, to not even give a person with low virtues and less than good gear a chance. People should be given a chance. Sure, they may turn out to be crummy raiders, but on the other hand they may be really good.

2) The ones that would come across as elitists, for me personally, are those who do the stuff in #1. .. He did not have to work hard to get good grades. However, I can take pleasure in knowing that, while I may not be as smart as him, at least I got better grades.

If one of those raiding kinships have high expectations, then that is fine. What I'm talking about are PUGs where the leaders tell other people to be inspectable. People they don't even know. They judge those players based purely on appearance, and without giving them a chance.

As for #1 Yes. It's discriminatory, however, not all discrimination is inherently bad. We discriminate against criminals, we discriminate against age by not allowing people of all age to vote just to give 2 examples. It is reasonable that the leader should be able to feel that the player can pull their own weight and that the group has a reasonable chance of success.

As for #2. What virtues and gear show are a willingness to put forth the effort to prepare by being the best 'solo' player you can be. Are some people's expectations/minimum requirements too high? Yes. Perhaps they lack confidence in their leadership skills or just want an easy time. But I think you would have to agree that just because I asked every single person to be inspectable the entire time I was leading ToO pugs from Day 1 of launch that there wasn't anything inherently elitist about it. Sure, you may have thought that at first, but I think after a few months, you and the rest of the server who partook in GLFF during the time would have had a hard time justifying that stance after the first month or so. I'm even reasonably certain you yourself defended me against that very accusation of being elitist by asking for the chance to inspect people in the past.

[bobbylobs]

And you've missed my ENTIRE point by focusing on one sentence from my previous post. The forums are a minority. The most vocal of those in the forum are an even more vocal minority. I never said it wasn't a problem, but that it's generally the same people who go from thread to thread. Note the word "Generally" in that sentence. So, some of those you posted have low post counts. Others have hundred or thousands. All I know is I, again "generally", see the same names and/or new accounts complaining which I take to be alts.

Kinda hard for me to accept a forum account complaining about endgame who joined three months ago because there's no proof that that person is just someone who didn't use the forum or if they're hiding behind an alt or using multiple accounts to inflate the number of people complaining. Perhaps it's a flaw on my part, to put less weight on a brand new account, but such is the price for creating an account when you have a problem only.

But still, I will repeat: Everyone in the forums is a minority because those who use the forums are a small percentage of those playing the game. The ones who yell and scream the most are the Vocal Minority, and nothing they say will tell me they're in the majority because I know the only ones who have the numbers are Turbine. Once more, I'm a minority, you're a minority, everyone in the forums is a minority because, in essence, the voices on the forums are a fraction of the playerbase.

So, to those claiming they speak for the majority, I repeat: No, you're not. You're speaking for yourself and a handful of other people you know agree with you. You have no way of knowing how many people you're speaking for. The only times I use the term "Minority" (outside of this particular discussion), as I stated in my previous post, is when someone claims to be speaking for a large number of people.

Go check the join dates of those "3 month" accounts they are all old, they are people fed up with how things are going, and to dismiss them as alt accounts just because they happen to have a different view to you is ridiculous.
3 months is MORE than enough time to get to end game nowadays anyway it can be done in 3 weeks.

So what if they are a minority? does that mean their individual opinions count less? if they are so fed up that they have decided to break the norm and post their dissatisfaction do you not think they should be heard? I would argue that a long term player who is getting fed up enough to voice that is in need of being heard more than a long term player staying silent not being fussed either way.

Your argument was that the same people are saying the same thing over and over again so therefore their complaints are somehow lessened, I was simply pointing on your flawed "facts" its isnt the same people at all, its lots of different people saying the same thing over and over again, and maybe, just maybe it might be a good idea to address why these people are saying these things, before they decide to call it a day and go elsewhere to find what they are looking for, minority or not, those people all have money to spend.

EDIT
not a single one of those posts comes from an account made after 2011, so that exposes your "alt account" theory for the nonsense that it was. You will have to come up with another one to explain why long term players are all of a sudden showing discontent for the games direction.