A Letter from Executive Producer Aaron Campbell

[bobbylobs]

There has become somewhat of a trend to derail a thread to get it locked when its not going the way some may wish. Going forward, the effort spent trying to derail a thread to the point of getting it locked will be less effective. Removing posts and those who feel they cannot post in an appropriate manner or choose to employ this tactic will happen more often.

I would say thats probably a very positive step forward, far too many good in depth discussions are ended due to the actions of a single person, keeping the thread going but removing the offending posts like you mentioned above is very much a step forward for the forums.

[JustALittlePeril]

Trying to get back on topic...

While all the things in the letter range from OK to good, in my opinion, the lack of mention of balancing is a bit distressing. Since HD, I've spent most of my time leveling a guard to 50, then a champ from 50 to 79, currently. I've been doing all red quests when I can, because it is the only way I have to pay attention to what I am doing. Even then I need to engage 4+ red mobs to make things interesting.

This would be tolerable, at least until end game, if it were not for the fact that I can't accept quests more than 5 levels over my head. I often run out of red quests and have to go back searching for old quests that are trivial as they are yellow/white. Maybe if I could take purple quests I would not run out of quests, and I'd need to be careful about how many mobs I pulled, like the good old days.

I could also go on about the end game difficulty, but that horse has been beat to death. Let me just say that in my opinion, balancing should be the number one priority until we at least get back to the level of difficulty we had in RoR, although I'd personally like to see you go a bit farther.

[Mar-Evayave]

Trying to get back on topic...

While all the things in the letter range from OK to good, in my opinion, the lack of mention of balancing is a bit distressing. Since HD, I've spent most of my time leveling a guard to 50, then a champ from 50 to 79, currently. I've been doing all red quests when I can, because it is the only way I have to pay attention to what I am doing. Even then I need to engage 4+ red mobs to make things interesting.

This would be tolerable, at least until end game, if it were not for the fact that I can't accept quests more than 5 levels over my head. I often run out of red quests and have to go back searching for old quests that are trivial as they are yellow/white. Maybe if I could take purple quests I would not run out of quests, and I'd need to be careful about how many mobs I pulled, like the good old days.

I could also go on about the end game difficulty, but that horse has been beat to death. Let me just say that in my opinion, balancing should be the number one priority until we at least get back to the level of difficulty we had in RoR, although I'd personally like to see you go a bit farther.

Jinjaah let the PvMP community know that there is some work being done in the Moors for balancing and Sapience has said that balancing is an on-going process. I for one wouldn't understand a word they said if they talked about "value X is being drawn back to 3.14..." or something like that. xD I agree, the "on-going process" bit does tend to be confusing and vague. It almost makes it seem trivial. But I find Jinjaah's post to be encouraging. It shows that work is being done, and while PvMP is not the same as PvE, it's still the same characters freepside.

[JustALittlePeril]

Jinjaah let the PvMP community know that there is some work being done in the Moors for balancing and Sapience has said that balancing is an on-going process. I for one wouldn't understand a word they said if they talked about "value X is being drawn back to 3.14..." or something like that. xD I agree, the "on-going process" bit does tend to be confusing and vague. It almost makes it seem trivial. But I find Jinjaah's post to be encouraging. It shows that work is being done, and while PvMP is not the same as PvE, it's still the same characters freepside.

Yes, it just would have been nice to see some recognition by the new EP that this is a high priority issue.

[bobbylobs]

Jinjaah let the PvMP community know that there is some work being done in the Moors for balancing and Sapience has said that balancing is an on-going process. I for one wouldn't understand a word they said if they talked about "value X is being drawn back to 3.14..." or something like that. xD I agree, the "on-going process" bit does tend to be confusing and vague. It almost makes it seem trivial. But I find Jinjaah's post to be encouraging. It shows that work is being done, and while PvMP is not the same as PvE, it's still the same characters freepside.

Yes but balancing pve and pvp are two entirely different things, for starters creeps do different types of damage to the mobs on landscape, each creep has its own mits and avoidances, its a build an individual makes for themselves, there is no common ground to balance things around like a landscape mob, adapting freeps dps to accomodate reaver x is useless when adapting it to accomodate random wolf in field y or raid mob z.A creeps dps, isnt constant, a creep can move in and out of combat, can be joined by lots of other creeps, is effected much greater by position, with a landscape mob or an instance mob, thats not the case, generally an orc on landscape dosent try to gain positional advantage, doesnt get buffed by randomly selected creep classes etc etc, balancing freeps to a creep will only make the landscape situation much much worse.

While I am glad they are balancing PVP I dont use that as a yardstick to how PVE balancing is going they are separate entities, I was very dissapointed with the adjustments that were supposed to have been made in the last update, I really didnt see much change tbh, hopefully when BR comes up we will see some difference with U13.

As for the revamps, the 3 areas chosen I would agree with, however the actual content in those areas is very good, its the flow that is the problem, take ND following the epic book usually means I miss trestlebridge as I get the memo to go there around the time I reach Ost Guruth and Radagast, which means I either skip the epic book (which is a no-no for me) just do the epic book and skip the rest of the lone lands questing(which is a shame as the quests are very good), buy a stone of the tortoise, or do all the content in Ost Guruth/Aughaire and miss out on the first half of ND. That needs addressing and tying together much better, the same happens towards the end of the ND epic book as well, it takes you off to Evendim way before you have finished the content of ND, which is a shame as the content is great.

MM needs more quests,it seems split in 2,the quests span 11 levels(39-50), but there is not enough content for 11 levels, you go there for the epic at what late 30s?, but the east and goblin town are higher in level (late 40s) and you end up following the epic elsewhere,the east is a place people go during the "waiting to start eregion" phase but the are too few quests for the size of region, I would add at least 1 more quest hub in there and reduce the level range of the area(39-45) try and turn it into a proper full questing region rather than just a gap filler it seems to be now.

Trollshaws I wouldnt touch too much, its a very different questing experience, it feels very wild and isolated exactly as I pictured when reading the books, however I would try and structure the epic books better there, the back and forth from rivendell does get tiring after a while, maybe put a quest hub in between rivendell and thorenhad to break up that journey.

[frickinmuck]

I made a suggestion awhile back for a store item that gives the game a "hardmode" edge, for those of us who want more challenge. It didn't seem to get much traction.

[Cheery]

It's very sad to see this thread get derailed and plumb the depths of intra-community petty squabbling about who has the most right to complain about something or other.

Here's a novel idea? How about we stop all of that nonsense and instead focus the discussion about something constructive, such as to what Turbine should be doing over the next couple of years? You never know - the exec producer might just take part

Yes, please. Everyone has stated their main position more than once. Let's get back to:

Thanks, Rowan, for coming to rescue us!

Please follow your overall plan and provide us with new and interesting content.

But, also, please, recognize that HD was not a huge success. Please use some of your resources this year to improving it. Get the icon duplication straightened out. Provide more instruction on how to approach BB, especially from the solo viewpoint. Reconsider some of the process for rewarding perseverance in these instances. Raise the priority of balancing issues.
Without trying to ascribe specific reasons to it, it is an incontrovertible fact that there are many old-time players that have stopped playing LOTRO since HD came out. Please try to get some of them back because I miss them.

The very best of luck in your renewed position!

[Beaniemooch]

As for end-game, I've said it before: PvMP is by far the most challenging, exciting area of the game right now (that's probably always the case). If end-gamers need something to do while they wait for more raids, I think that's a great place to start. Jinjaah has recently been in the forums talking about some of the work being done on that area, so it seems it is getting some love.

I have a R8 minstrel, but since HD I have had no interest in the moors. PvP was always something I did as a break from raiding, not instead of. I'm happy that you're enjoying it but it's not a substitute or filler for me because PvE content is where my interest lies. As for a self-nerf item, I can do that just by taking off all my armour and weapons but what is the point? To artificially gimp myself is not addressing the basic problem with the game and the imbalance that exists.

I'm really hoping that Rowan can dig in and see what can be done. I agree, HD was not the success for many that Turbine hoped it would be.

[frickinmuck]

I have a R8 minstrel, but since HD I have had no interest in the moors. PvP was always something I did as a break from raiding, not instead of. I'm happy that you're enjoying it but it's not a substitute or filler for me because PvE content is where my interest lies. As for a self-nerf item, I can do that just by taking off all my armour and weapons but what is the point? To artificially gimp myself is not addressing the basic problem with the game and the imbalance that exists.

No matter how much balance they bring to the game, and they always are improving that, it will never be the terrifying, annoying, frustrating challenge it used to be. Nothing like East Angmar during the SOA days. Undeniably, the game has been eased up to accommodate a new, expanded player base. That is as it should be, and I would not want to see that changed. That doesn't alter the fact that there is a contingent among us who enjoy tougher challenges, the sort that newer, inexperienced players don't enjoy. Perhaps you're not part of that group and that's fine, stick with what is currently on the table, but for my part - I would welcome and would definitely pay for a store item that adjusts difficultly level in a way that is more scientific and broader than simple dequipping of items would allow for. I am not talking about a nerf so much as I am talking about an item that puts things into hardmode.

A wider aggro range that's more in line with SOA levels, perhaps a trigger that makes opponents much more likely to use special attacks, hit harder, do bigger damage or bigger bleeds, call for reinforcements, etc. The devs would know better than I what types of tweaks could be done to raise the difficulty level with such an item. If we can have items to artificially disable xp gain, I don't see why a hardmode item is such a strange concept. Far from implying a lack of balance or inappropriate level of mainstream challenge to the game, it simply acknowledges and accommodates different playstyles. Most people don't want things to be nail-bitingly tough, they just want it to be fun and relatively straightforward. Some of us want more. Nothing wrong with either approach. I'd just love to have some choice and variety. Over-leveled zones with dequipped gear doesn't cut it.

[Beaniemooch]

No matter how much balance they bring to the game, and they always are improving that, it will never be the terrifying, annoying, frustrating challenge it used to be. Nothing like East Angmar during the SOA days. Undeniably, the game has been eased up to accommodate a new, expanded player base. That is as it should be, and I would not want to see that changed. That doesn't alter the fact that there is a contingent among us who enjoy tougher challenges, the sort that newer, inexperienced players don't enjoy. Perhaps you're not part of that group and that's fine, stick with what is currently on the table, but for my part - I would welcome and would definitely pay for a store item that adjusts difficultly level in a way that is more scientific and broader than simple dequipping of items would allow for. I am not talking about a nerf so much as I am talking about an item that puts things into hardmode.

A wider aggro range that's more in line with SOA levels, perhaps a trigger that makes opponents much more likely to use special attacks, hit harder, do bigger damage or bigger bleeds, call for reinforcements, etc. The devs would know better than I what types of tweaks could be done to raise the difficulty level with such an item. If we can have items to artificially disable xp gain, I don't see why a hardmode item is such a strange concept. Far from implying a lack of balance or inappropriate level of mainstream challenge to the game, it simply acknowledges and accommodates different playstyles. Most people don't want things to be nail-bitingly tough, they just want it to be fun and relatively straightforward. Some of us want more. Nothing wrong with that at all.

This is what Tier 1, Tier 2 and T2c were designed for. I happen to like T2c, but I would protest loudly if they took out T1 because that needs to be there too. But I want that to be part of the game, not need some kind of gimp suit I have to put on to make life tougher for me. I should be able to strive for the best I can be with what is in the game and have a place to take my little uber self to play. Somebody who isn't willing to go through what I am should have just as much right to have a place to take their little uber selves, however they are set up.

I don't like the artificial item to disable XP, I've never purchased it and I don't see the point. I'm glad it's there for folks who enjoy it. I also don't think a hardmode item to make content artificially harder is appropriate when we already have a mechanism for T1, T2 and T2c. I could care less about landscape mobs, they're not where challenge should ever be. Nobody should be frustrated and constantly in danger every time they see a landscape mob or three. What I dislike is there is nowhere in the game right now that is a challenge - nowhere. This is not my fault for being a good player or having good gear, this is a flaw in the game that the mechanics weren't scaled properly from when places like BG and Helegrod were on level. Frankly I'm glad they're not scaling Rift. Big Battles were a failure in my opinion because they didn't really address solo/duo content and they sure as heck didn't address raiding content or instances. They're not something I enjoy and I avoid like the plague whenever I can get out of them - I only go to help unranked friends or a scheduled kin run that needs me.

There are times I want things to be nail-bitingly tough but I want them to be able to be conquered. There are times I don't want things tough and I want to relax and play with friends in a low-key fashion. Lotro used to have all of that and now they don't. I see that as a problem with the game and not the fact I have decent gear and know how to play my character.

[frickinmuck]

Nobody should be frustrated and constantly in danger every time they see a landscape mob or three.

Then perhaps you aren't the audience for this item. I am.

It's strange you say you want challenge, but that this item doesn't appeal to you, but that's totally fine. It appeals to me and some others. Perhaps it's too complicated to program and we'll never see it created, but a person can dream...

As for T2C, yeah, that's great for when raiding, but I'm not always raiding. I have 17 alts and only a handful of those are end-game. I do a lot of landscape stuff and it would add to my enjoyment if that content was more challenging than most people would appreciate.

But we're straying off-topic again, I guess. Like others, I am optimistic about Rowan's letter and looking forward to seeing what direction things take.

[Mar-Evayave]

Yes but balancing pve and pvp are two entirely different things, [...] While I am glad they are balancing PVP I dont use that as a yardstick to how PVE balancing is going they are separate entities...

I can't disagree with that, but it's important to keep in mind that when you balance a class in PvP it does effect PvE as well (if the class in question is a freep class). That was more of my point.

Frickinmuck & Beanie - Even as recently as RoI, the kind of difficulty you describe existed in the game. I joined this game about half a yearish before RoI launched. I remember being in Evendim when it was announced and I pounced on Legendary because I didn't have any of the quest packs offered (best buy ever). And later I was in Angmar itself (East Angmar, actually, outside BG) around the time that RoI actually did launch (if memory serves). Perhaps it was because I was playing a guardian at the time, but I remember it being harder then that it is now. I can't really pinpoint the part where that changed, though.

[Beaniemooch]

I can't disagree with that, but it's important to keep in mind that when you balance a class in PvP it does effect PvE as well (if the class in question is a freep class). That was more of my point.

Frickinmuck & Beanie - Even as recently as RoI, the kind of difficulty you describe existed in the game. I joined this game about half a yearish before RoI launched. I remember being in Evendim when it was announced and I pounced on Legendary because I didn't have any of the quest packs offered (best buy ever). And later I was in Angmar itself (East Angmar, actually, outside BG) around the time that RoI actually did launch (if memory serves). Perhaps it was because I was playing a guardian at the time, but I remember it being harder then that it is now. I can't really pinpoint the part where that changed, though.

It was in the game, and I miss it. When stat caps were removed it became ridiculous how much mastery a character could have. We were fairly powerful in RoR, but there was content that called for it, nay, demanded it (Flight T2/T2c anyone?) and it had a use. Now the mobs even in instances didn't scale well to 95 but the gear is off the charts for overpowered stats. An 86 third ager had more dps than an 85 first ager - say what? Why?? When you make that huge a leap so quickly it backfires and I believe that's what happened in this case. I don't have a solution but look forward to continued tweaking and hope it reaches a level that it's actually noticeable. So far it hasn't been.

I am mildly optimistic with new leadership and I'm willing to give it a chance. I understand it's only March and there's no new group content in 2014. Can you please give us an idea if there will be in 2015? I don't even need a date or guesstimate, just please tell me you're working on something that resembles a raid/instance cluster and I'll go about my business content to wait and see. And send the minstrel dev to the class forum if you see her/him.... please?

[Grimsin'sRiders]

Trying to figure out where this thread is, or was, or how it got wherever it is - It's almost as if I've drawn a glass from one of the kegs in my Kinhouse - Who, wut, ...err... Where?

Can we maybe cut down on all the multi-quoted, long-winded posting at least until my head stops spinning & I once again find my pants?

[idlehanz]

Hello all! I’m Aaron “Rowan” Campbell, Executive Producer of The Lord of the Rings Online.*

Update 13 (and LOTRO’s 7^th Anniversary) are coming up soon (He said it! Not me!- Sapience). There is a long list of new features with U13, but I want to highlight some of the key items and the great folks that are working on them.

.

Still waiting for my Deep Fried Sickle Fly Gizzards to be added to the food. Probably appropriate for Shire and Bree region.

Thanks!!!

[Smehcoons]

Aaron.

Some questions:

1. Has the license for LOTRO been extended? If so, until when? (explicit and clear, no spin, no emotive words, no room for interpretation, no wishy-washy "agreement" or "plan" statements etc).

2. Is there any new raid / instance content planned and currently in development? Will we see it in 2015?


Some humble suggestions that I can't imagine requiring massive resources:

1. Add another tier of difficulty for the existing raids / instances. (T3C)

2. Have unique rare drops for each raid instance.

3. Profit

[JRAD65]

There has become somewhat of a trend to derail a thread to get it locked when its not going the way some may wish. Going forward, the effort spent trying to derail a thread to the point of getting it locked will be less effective. Removing posts and those who feel they cannot post in an appropriate manner or choose to employ this tactic will happen more often.

Isn't this the way it is supposed to happen. I had a look at the forums about a week ago, there were more locked threads than opened. Not once did I think it the fault of the community they were closed. Amazing discussions shut down.

[Galuhad]

1. Has the license for LOTRO been extended? If so, until when? (explicit and clear, no spin, no emotive words, no room for interpretation, no wishy-washy "agreement" or "plan" statements etc).

They have already stated a number of times that it has been, through to 2017.

[HoldumDown]

They have already stated a number of times that it has been, through to 2017.

Sorry to butt in, but I don't believe Smehcoons was addressing you when he posted his list of questions.

Lets revisit some important posts in this thread:

Well said, as always. I'm beyond tired of the word 'minority' being used as a reason to dismiss my opinions. If I were the only person to play this game who wanted new 3-6-12 content, I would still have every right to say so as often as I felt like it, and I would deserve the same respect as those who don't want that content added to the game. I have a right to feel strongly about that opinion without being called a 'whiner'. I have a right to say that I won't spend another penny on this game until it adds new classic group content without being called a 'hater' and being told that I should leave. I have a right to say I like content that feels risky and makes me think about what I'm doing without being called an 'elitist jerk'. It's that attitude, way more so than the lack of interesting content and the absence of challenge/immersion in the newer areas, that makes me less and less interested in logging in anymore. The people left here don't seem to want a community at all if it doesn't conform to their specific agenda.

I wanted to call out this post because Whart has a point. I also wanted to point out the same is true for everyone who disagrees with the statement. Or partially agrees. Or feels as strongly about something else entirely. They do not deserve to be called 'fanboi' or 'sycophant' or 'suck up' or 'apologist' because they choose not to support your views or hold views counter to them. Nor do they deserve to be called 'noobs' or 'lame' or 'fail players' because they don't wish to participate in the same type of content you do.

[LethalLethality]

I'd wait to be asking questions until Aaron posts his plans. He's stated he's not gonna post some things until he has his plan laid out and to give him some time to do so.

Thanks for all your concerns and your well-wishes.

I want to provide a fairly complete picture of our goals for this year and next year, so I'm holding off on any partial answers. Bear with me for now.

The team is focused on pushing U13 through to code freeze and preparing for LOTRO's 7th Anniversary. If you've noted my style on DDO, I prefer to be direct and also to be sure when I commit the team to a direction. I will have a lot more to say as we get closer to the Anniversary.

It's good to be back!

Sounds to me, from this comment, that what he posts is what's being worked on, for this year and next, that they want to talk about and that you won't get much in the way of answers in regards to stuff he doesn't address.

[Galuhad]

Sorry to butt in, but I don't believe Smehcoons was addressing you when he posted his list of questions.

Perhaps not, but I was able to answer his question for him none the less.

[Solo2007]

Well met and welcome Back Aaron, sir.

Now that we have the pleasantries out of the way, down to business.

I have been in the game since 2007 hence the handle Solo2007, I love this game very, when offered a long time ago I bought 3 Lifetime subs. Since then I started two more accounts.
I had to have a house in each location dwarves, elves, hobbit and man. I wanted more storage and display space so I created an kin and then bought a Kinhouse. I am a member of the Kin Rising Phoenix but also some of my character are members of my own Kins. The one thing I noticed in this game is the way owners of houses and Kinhouses have very little display space. I will not get into how to fix it but offer more display space through the store.

Updates for the game:

The one thing I noticed every time there is a update some portion of the world is changed. I do not like it when distances between A and B are shortened, without some explanation. Probably, development thought nobody would noticed, wrong. All you have to do is to look at the Ered Luin for changes in distances between path that leads Tharsis' lodge and the road the leads to Duillond or maybe it was the addition of the cliff that is viewable from 20.8s, 95.5W looking roughly to the Northeast.

There are other places in this game that the distance see to be shorten, and being an exploring character which I love to do in any game to see the art work which is amazing depending on which computer system I am looking at the time, I have noticed this.

Beginning Tutorials:

I know that in the past there have been many tutorials and some have been shelved they all had merit. I really can not think of any one that needs to be shelved except the Dwarf tutorial running now. I remember when I created my first dwarf his training was done at that little place called The Berghold. Now look what they done to it. This anti industrial theme seems to be far, are we saying only dwarves and orcs work in industry. Who, built the first kingdom, or the second that these now lay waste.


If I had one thing that I would like to see back in the game would be the blank map, that is filled in has you explore or the ability to make just my map that way. I do not mean whole section filled in just a little bit on each side of your path.

The Epic:

I like the way the Epic is intertwine with its own quests I believe this is in the HD expansion, this should be done with all volumes and books but it should not require you to have to gather a full fellowship in order to do so.

This one person's opinion does not reflect and should not reflect on the Great Power that created this place we call Middle-Earth.

[robsolflotr]

But, also, please, recognize that HD was not a huge success. Please use some of your resources this year to improving it. Get the icon duplication straightened out. Provide more instruction on how to approach BB, especially from the solo viewpoint. Reconsider some of the process for rewarding perseverance in these instances. Raise the priority of balancing issues.
Without trying to ascribe specific reasons to it, it is an incontrovertible fact that there are many old-time players that have stopped playing LOTRO since HD came out. Please try to get some of them back because I miss them.

The very best of luck in your renewed position!

Agreed, here. I played through the BB's for the Epic story, ran through them a few more times with guildies, and a few of them solo. And there's nothing like going through(what feels like, at least) several half hour sessions not really knowing what I have to do to solve the side quests(or where to go for that matter), not knowing whether manipulating any of the war machinery or troops or pew-pewing has ANY notable effect on the outcome of the battle.

I've since been tempted to use what I've learned from(bless their soul!) Gedrevn's guide to get it done right, but if a half hour session is daunting, several of those sessions to get BoA gear that MAY be orange and MAY be something I haven't already gotten in previous efforts is less than appealing. If I could at least auction it, or better yet pick what I don't already have(the reason why I could grind through Hytbold with a smile on my face), that might make it worth doing. If I wanted to spend hours of my time to just get vendor trash, I'd zerg through some slayer deeds and be far richer for it.

I don't mean to be harsh, but Cheery is right. Since there won't be another level increase/Xpac for a while(very much appreciated!), these BB's are gonna be all we have for awhile in terms of "daily something to do's". Please consider what I said and do something to make us more interested in them!

[Frisco]

Perhaps not, but I was able to answer his question for him none the less.

Sure, but you answered it incorrectly. The license was extended, but never explicitly stated that it was extended until 2017. "Agreement" doesn't necessarily equal "license" no matter how strongly it was implied.

But they probably won't ever state that explicitly, so it's not worth asking. That's just begging for infractions. It doesn't really matter, anyway, Smeh--the extending of the IP license doesn't necessarily mean the game would still be developed, and if there were yearly options, I imagine Turbine owns the options, so if they're going to make the game, they'll pick them up. If you had a contract and had control of yearly options, what would the benefit be to pick up all options at once? A lot can happen in a year, and that would be like giving a huge loan to Saul Zaentz or whoever by paying years in advance.

[FundinStrongarm]

Sure, but you answered it incorrectly. The license was extended, but never explicitly stated that it was extended until 2017.

But they probably won't ever state that explicitly, so it's not worth asking. That's just begging for infractions. It doesn't really matter, anyway, Smeh--the extending of the IP license doesn't necessarily mean the game would still be developed, and if there were yearly options, I imagine Turbine owns the options, so if they're going to make the game, they'll pick them up. If you had a contract and had control of yearly options, what would the benefit be to pick up all options at once? A lot can happen in a year, and that would be like giving a huge loan to Saul Zaentz or whoever by paying years in advance.

It was stated. Paraphrase and quotes below.

Sapience: 'The license has been extended.'

2 different people: 'For how long?'
1 person: "You notice the question as to how long the license has been renewed was ignored. It could have been renewed for 1 years, 2 years, or all the way through 2017. No way to know unless they make an announcement."

Sapience: [quoting all 3 people] "We have an agreement that runs through 2017."

Take note of the comments he was responding to. I think it is explicit. YMMV