Elder King Symbol for Epic Reward?

[Wooktastic]

So I ran through the epic today after seeing that the rewards have been hooked up. For the most part, the rewards look like standard epic fare. But thrown in the middle, as a reward for chapter 5, was a Flawed Symbol of the Elder King.

Now, first off, this doesn't quite make sense considering the rest of the epic's rewards. It seems too much better. Secondly, really? If this is intended and goes live, I don't have words for how sad that makes me. Please consider not doing this.

Here's the proof:

[PKCrichton]

So I ran through the epic today after seeing that the rewards have been hooked up. For the most part, the rewards look like standard epic fare. But thrown in the middle, as a reward for chapter 5, was a Flawed Symbol of the Elder King.

Now, first off, this doesn't quite make sense considering the rest of the epic's rewards. It seems too much better. Secondly, really? If this is intended and goes live, I don't have words for how sad that makes me. Please consider not doing this.

Here's the proof:

Don't everyone start screaming about this yet. Maybe this was a slip up. I would say bug it as I'm sure this was meant to be a 2nd age symbol instead of a 1st age. But that said before the Great River Epic we didn't get a 2nd age symbol before from an epic and since then we got a 2nd age bridle from RoR and a 2nd age symbol from HD already. So giving out a single 1st age symbol isn't 'horrible' but at the same time this is the top LI symbol so getting it so 'easily' could be considered a bit of a slap to the raiding community. But again we don't know if this was intended to be a 1st age or what the reaasoning would be for a 1st age to be here other than its the last book of Volume 3 which has been full of never before seen LI rewards.

[Wooktastic]

Yeah I did file a /bug on it because like I said it seems out of place. This just doesn't seem like a sensible move to me. But I figured I'd say something about it because if it is intended, I feel that people should be aware of it.

[pvdtheking]

So I ran through the epic today after seeing that the rewards have been hooked up. For the most part, the rewards look like standard epic fare. But thrown in the middle, as a reward for chapter 5, was a Flawed Symbol of the Elder King.

Now, first off, this doesn't quite make sense considering the rest of the epic's rewards. It seems too much better. Secondly, really? If this is intended and goes live, I don't have words for how sad that makes me. Please consider not doing this.

Here's the proof:

This wouldn't surprise me as being genuine. They just made the game a tad harder so need some bribery to keep all the faceroll fanboys happy

[Crell_1]

This wouldn't surprise me as being genuine. They just made the game a tad harder so need some bribery to keep all the faceroll fanboys happy

Faceroll has nothing to do with it. After all, lots of people claim epic battles are face-roll and they're clearly going to be rewards for that after all.

So giving out a single 1st age symbol isn't 'horrible' but at the same time this is the top LI symbol so getting it so 'easily' could be considered a bit of a slap to the raiding community

Isn't giving it out as a platinum medal reward more of a slap to the raiding community? It's not like the platinum medal cash out distinguishes between where you got your medals or where you are when it cashes out. Right?

[pvdtheking]

Faceroll has nothing to do with it. After all, lots of people claim epic battles are face-roll and they're clearly going to be rewards for that after all.



Isn't giving it out as a platinum medal reward more of a slap to the raiding community? It's not like the platinum medal cash out distinguishes between where you got your medals or where you are when it cashes out. Right?

Skraids are easy yes, but there a lot more challenging than clicking your mouse to hand in quests...or 'shock' talking to NPC's. Gated behind the epic guarantees every VIP one...whereas big battles/skraids are at least more challenging and there's a chance none will drop...

[Crell_1]

Skraids are easy yes, but there a lot more challenging than clicking your mouse to hand in quests...or 'shock' talking to NPC's. Gated behind the epic guarantees every VIP one...whereas big battles/skraids are at least more challenging and there's a chance none will drop...

Have you determined that only the Skirmish T3 raids drop one and not just all T3 skirmishes? What have you observed to be the drop rate?

Additionally. Gated behind the epic doesn't guarantee all VIPs one. It guarantees one FA for anyone willing to do the whole V3 HD epic. All of which is gated by the expansion purchase for everyone. That means having to sit through and finish somewhat successfully each Epic Battle with the character.

[Michaleo]

I suppose some people want players to get FA symbols the old-fashioned way: by spending all their accumulated gold on AH.

The LI design does not limit use of a FA LI by any criteria or rite of passage. You could make a pile of gold by grinding instances where you never risked defeat and buy the FA symbol or FA LI. If you want to restrict the use of FA LI's, you'd have to make equipping/slotting them be gated by a deed, or make FA symbols bind on acquire and have them be slotted into LIs like relics. But as long as anyone can buy and use one, they're only adjusting the supply.

Increasing the supply by one per level-cap player will moderate the price during the initial period when the number produced by drops and other means cannot keep up with demand. After the post-update fever passes, will it make any difference? I may be giving them credit for a more clever and wise decision than they deserve, but it seems about as likely as the suggestion that it was an inadvertent one.

[Ithrien]

I suppose some people want players to get FA symbols the old-fashioned way: by spending all their accumulated gold on AH.

The LI design does not limit use of a FA LI by any criteria or rite of passage. You could make a pile of gold by grinding instances where you never risked defeat and buy the FA symbol or FA LI. If you want to restrict the use of FA LI's, you'd have to make equipping/slotting them be gated by a deed, or make FA symbols bind on acquire and have them be slotted into LIs like relics. But as long as anyone can buy and use one, they're only adjusting the supply.

Increasing the supply by one per level-cap player will moderate the price during the initial period when the number produced by drops and other means cannot keep up with demand. After the post-update fever passes, will it make any difference? I may be giving them credit for a more clever and wise decision than they deserve, but it seems about as likely as the suggestion that it was an inadvertent one.

Can you try again and this time not ignore the entire segment of players who participated in the required forms of content in order to obtain FA symbols at 65, 75 and 85 which they'd then (once themselves geared, and their kinnies/friends) spread their gains throughout the community (the people who "spend all their accumulated gold oh AH")?

Thanks.

(Lootboxes weren't always around you know, and even after their introduction they haven't always dropped level-cap FA symbols.)
(Also, I get that there isn't a new level-cap raid to drop symbols from obviously. They are already allegedly dropping from T3 skraids and BB plat rewards, and [not sure about tiers] scaled raids. That's enough. We don't need freebies, we need to be incentivized/given a carrot. Content should be the carrot, repeatable content that doesn't guarantee you get what you're after the very first time. Just my opinion ofc.)

[twistedmetalplayer21]

1 Symbol being handed out isn't a slap to the face for anyone. Mostly because the FA's are hardly any improvement over 2nd ages. (I posted a forum on it).

I don't think this will hurt anyone, or anybody. Plus if people think it is worth it they will group up for the 2nd FA they want to have. So people will still go grouping.

[Ithrien]

1 Symbol being handed out isn't a slap to the face for anyone. Mostly because the FA's are hardly any improvement over 2nd ages. (I posted a forum on it).

I don't think this will hurt anyone, or anybody. Plus if people think it is worth it they will group up for the 2nd FA they want to have. So people will still go grouping.

I don't think its a slap in the face either, yet if you had to run content (not just a 1-time quest completion that insta-gives you a FA) to obtain both FAs, thats twice as much incentive to group or BB right there - PER TOON.

Incentives are good. Hand-out then log-out, is not good.

I realize that in a sense I'm defending the horrific RNG, all I can say is I wish the loot system at LEAST where it pertains to FA LIs, was: (raids only) T1, only 2nd agers drop. T2, small chance for FA. T2C chest guaranteed FA, with T2 chest still retaining its chance to drop an extra.

[Strmi]

they should leave symbol,one symbol won't make difference so please leave that symbol for quest,because anyway everyone will have their symbols in max 2 weeks and at least like this we get something for doing epic

[Ithrien]

they should live symbol,one symbol won't make difference so please leave that symbol for quest,because anyway everyone will have their symbols in max 2 weeks and at least like this we get something for doing epic

Another problem.

If everyone has their symbol in 2 weeks... what do they have to "grind" for, to play for, to look forward to? (Obviously theres not any new group/instanced content and since landscape quest content and epics are 1-time, been-there-done-that content we end up with LOTRO "completed" and nothing to gain from participating in any activity. Please dont' say "But alts!" -.- Edit: Nothing to "gain" pertaining to the progression of our level-capped characters.)

Offering a free symbol just makes everyone get their symbol(s) EVEN FASTER than if it'd truly only take 2 weeks without it, and 2 weeks is too short a timeframe to soak up ALL of the new content (finish all quests, get first ager[s]/LI titles) anyway IMO. How many people had FA two weeks after OD released?

After those "two weeks" or however long it takes to finish up all the content that this update brings (meaning finish the approx 1-3 hours of questing, and obtain 2 FAs).... we've got like months before there is another update, and no reason to believe that next batch of content will contain anything to do other than more landscape and epic quests to finish, which we will all do... and dead-end ourselves yet again.

/Turbine

[Crell_1]

Another problem.

If everyone has their symbol in 2 weeks... what do they have to "grind" for, to play for, to look forward to?
...
and no reason to believe that next batch of content will contain anything to do other than more landscape and epic quests to finish, which we will all do... and dead-end ourselves yet again.

If previous betas are any indication its likely a rather long series of time limited dailies (18hrs between each part as of U13P2), from which you get a box with a random reward in it. Housing items seem somewhat rare from what we've seen. The 3 different kinds of landscape pet hourns are probably even more rare. To my knowledge no one has acquired one yet.


Not that it's a particularly compelling reason to do the dailies, but it is one for some players.

What's wrong with more 'Comparable Incomparables'? Give some way for players of one playstyle to acquire a reward. Another way for another playstyle. Who knows, maybe we'll see Moors FAs in U13P4 or U13 when it goes live.

[Rashy]

Ladies and gentlemen, our new non-free-to-play Epic quest rewards.

Next step'll be handle out to every new character you create so long you are paying your VIP.

[Mar-Evayave]

But that said before the Great River Epic we didn't get a 2nd age symbol before from an epic...

Thought I'd mention that we did receive a 2nd ager from the epics before Great River. VIII: B3: Echoes of the Dead: C4: Ergothorn Elf-friend.

[Worfie]

Can you try again and this time not ignore the entire segment of players who participated in the required forms of content in order to obtain FA symbols at 65, 75 and 85 which they'd then (once themselves geared, and their kinnies/friends) spread their gains throughout the community (the people who "spend all their accumulated gold oh AH")?

Thanks.

Wow thanks for the crumbs that fall from your table once you and your Kinnies have had your fill! I am truly grateful that you remember the great unwashed masses.

So what if everyone is running around with FA's, where is the problem in that????

Meh the game has changed, Currently its geared more towards the SOLO/Casual Players and less towards Raiders. Whether for good or bad will be(and is being) debated ad-nauseum.

So in light of this change it makes sense that you get "the best" reward for doing the Epic Quests since that's what most solo/casual players do. Before it was a SA symbol as the reward. Now its a FA symbol (if this change makes it to live and is not a bug). Call it the next step in the evolution of a solo/casual Player. My cynical nature is telling me that they are "giving" people FA symbols so we can upgrade our LIs and possibly buy scrolls/crystals from the store.

So you got your FA Symbol via t2cm raid, someone else got it via a Solo epic quest and I got mine in a packet of Cornflakes. What the difference?

The only difference is a perceived "status/attitude" that has been attached to FAs as in "ooo I haz gold item(s), I is the Bestest most hardcore player eva and I'm more leet than you are Noob"

When really its just another item regardless of how you acquired it. There is no real difference between an FA or a SA symbol as a reward. Both can make items that do ridiculous amount of dps and the difference in DPS/LI Points between a SA sword and a FA sword is not that great. Both will kill things in quick time.

If people want to rush and get a FA in one day or week, go ahead enjoy yourself. Some people can't play a lot and what might take someone 1 week to get might take someone else 1 month or more to get. But both should feel satisfaction of a job well done when they achieve their goal (in this case to get an FA Symbol)

[Othniel]

I don't mind a Symbol of the Elder King as reward for the Volume. Instead of a quest reward, add it to the deed for completing ALL of the Volume III books. Like the Symbol of Celebrimbor reward for finishing the Draigoch deed back in RoI.

[Ithrien]

Wow thanks for the crumbs that fall from your table once you and your Kinnies have had your fill! I am truly grateful that you remember the great unwashed masses.

So what if everyone is running around with FA's, where is the problem in that????

Meh the game has changed, Currently its geared more towards the SOLO/Casual Players and less towards Raiders. Whether for good or bad will be(and is being) debated ad-nauseum.

So in light of this change it makes sense that you get "the best" reward for doing the Epic Quests since that's what most solo/casual players do. Before it was a SA symbol as the reward. Now its a FA symbol (if this change makes it to live and is not a bug). Call it the next step in the evolution of a solo/casual Player. My cynical nature is telling me that they are "giving" people FA symbols so we can upgrade our LIs and possibly buy scrolls/crystals from the store.

So you got your FA Symbol via t2cm raid, someone else got it via a Solo epic quest and I got mine in a packet of Cornflakes. What the difference?

The only difference is a perceived "status/attitude" that has been attached to FAs as in "ooo I haz gold item(s), I is the Bestest most hardcore player eva and I'm more leet than you are Noob"

When really its just another item regardless of how you acquired it. There is no real difference between an FA or a SA symbol as a reward. Both can make items that do ridiculous amount of dps and the difference in DPS/LI Points between a SA sword and a FA sword is not that great. Both will kill things in quick time.

If people want to rush and get a FA in one day or week, go ahead enjoy yourself. Some people can't play a lot and what might take someone 1 week to get might take someone else 1 month or more to get. But both should feel satisfaction of a job well done when they achieve their goal (in this case to get an FA Symbol)

1. The cake is (was) for everybody. If people didn't wanna come sit at the table (group with others) and attempt to cut out a slice (raid), then that was their choice. The raids were designed to be completed by ALL players of the 9 LOTRO classes, and offer rewards for doing so as incentive alongside the feeling of accomplishment and completion/continuation of stories. The fact that after myself/kinnies/friends/puggers then "spread the crumbs" was a GOOD thing, and the only reason that even having a FA in the first place was possible for some players (those who couldn't or wouldn't participate in those forms of content) was because there were those of us in LOTRO's community who would share the spoils either by selling or giving away. Nothing is bad about that and nothing you can say will make me out to be a bad guy - I'm a good guy, players who know my toons/me know it.

2. Yes the game has changed. The game has also apparently given up hope on creating any new instances in the future at all - except maybe some more Battles. When I am unhappy with a change and think it will be detrimental to my/other players fun and/or the longevity and integrity of the game - I will speak up. Every time.

3. That isn't the only difference, the difference is that having these things drop from instances (and only 1 ever was guaranteed [for the 12 of your raiding party] *if* you complete challenge mode) was that it made people PLAY them. It built communities, and provided competetive fun and a place to utilize the full potential of your class(es). You say there's no difference, but there's a huge one: If FAs are given out in T3 Skraids, T2/C raids, and as Plat BB rewards (and even Lootboxes) then players will spend time doing these contents - at least until they get their FA (or two). If they can get one for finishing the no-effort do-it-once Epic... it pulls potential incentive from running T3 skraids, T2/C raids, and BBs. LESSENING REASONS TO RUN CONTENT IN THIS GAME IS NOT A POSITIVE.


Don't misunderstand me. I'm not upset that "everyone will be walking around with first agers". That is the intention of the game, always has been. Play the content, get the rewards. My issue is with the implementation. No, I'm not saying "FA should only drop from T2C raids" even though I wouldn't mind a world like that - but I think that T3 skraids, T2/C raids, and plat BBS and maybe lootboxes, is a fine variety and doesn't detract from any other content types.

The part I'm against is that they're basically handing them out for completing a solo-oriented (read: easy enough to be completed by any class in any traitline without much if any risk of failure) ONE TIME quest(/line) which 100% guarantees a FA reward, because after that... WHAT REASON(s) ARE THERE LEFT FOR SUCH PLAYERS TO RUN lvl 95 SKRAIDs/RAIDS/BBs? NONE.
(And you are wrong about 1/2/3 Age LIs btw, there are substantial differences, and its called *progression*.)

And not just because I think more effort should = more reward - though I do, for the record - but because (this is the most important part!) a 1-and-done means people will do it and move on.

If FA were more rare - like they are supposed to be! - and only had a chance to drop, with the only existing guarantee to see one drop being ONE symbol upon completion of highest difficulty raid content challenge mode to be rolled on by twelve people, then people would, to get their FAs, continue running these contents that drop FA (BB, T3 skraid, T2/C raid) at least until they get them.

I would prefer to have people to play the game with (I like to group), I'd prefer to help people learn the existing raids/skraids/BBs and run them, since we aren't getting any new ones for a long time now and our raiding/grouping community has greatly diminished.

I'd prefer that LOTRO THRIVE with as much action in its instanced content (much of which is old scaled up content) as possible, and not just SURVIVE by putting out less and less quality and quantities of content THAT FURTHER REDUCE THE INCENTIVE TO RUN OTHER LOTRO CONTENT, and depending on and catering to people who don't care one way or the other what the actual game content is or is like, as long as they have their Middle Earth life simulator - even if ME has become barren compared to previous years and has a dim future ahead of nothing but landscape quests until 2017 - IF it makes it to 2017.

To me, throwing FA to everybody who completes one solo questline, once, will in the end just mean more people log out, and less people playing means less people paying period.

Offering multiple venues (more than EVER: BBs, T3 skraids, T2/C raids, Lootboxes) is (or would be) awesome. But offering one minimal-effort path that every player is obviously going to do is not awesome, because it pulls much if not all of the incentive to run the non-Epic contents that drop FA. One step forward, two steps back.

The problem isn't simply people having first ages. Its people having one minimal-effort path to a guaranateed FA on speeding rails toward "all done", and then leaving for ESO or whatever else.

[Crell_1]

The part I'm against is that they're basically handing them out for completing a solo-oriented (read: easy enough to be completed by any class in any traitline without much if any risk of failure) ONE TIME quest(/line) which 100% guarantees a FA reward, because after that... WHAT REASON(s) ARE THERE LEFT FOR SUCH PLAYERS TO RUN lvl 95 SKRAIDs/RAIDS/BBs? NONE.
(And you are wrong about 1/2/3 Age LIs btw, there are substantial differences, and its called *progression*.)

The problem isn't simply people having first ages. Its people having one minimal-effort path to a guaranateed FA on speeding rails toward "all done", and then leaving for ESO or whatever else.

1. Players don't all want to go the Epic book route. Some of us hate Epic Battles that much.That's why we asked for an onramp for 3.14 in the first place. So you enjoy doing EBs? Good for you, finish up the book and get an FA that doesn't involve the RNG.

2.What about players who ask for PVMP first ages and have already done the rank work required to attain them and have the comms waiting? Perhaps even as a result of Rank Farming when it was legal?

3. I've earned FAs from T2 raid content (RoR/RoI), T1 raid content (T1-ROR DISASTER, at about 1%! [yeah, I ran enough to be confident saying that!]), and T2C (RoI), Multiples from Lootboxes (RoI) [didn't pay $/TP for the key or box]

4.My experience and that of my kinmates seems to be that the only place FAs make a significant difference is when running T2C content that all but requires it (T2C BFE@85,T2C Flight @ 85, T2C shadow@75, etc.), and in the Ettenmoors, which gained its own acquisition path. If giving players a single first age by a guaranteed method of acquisition that seems worth it enough for most players, maybe they'll login to do it. Maybe they'll spend on store upgrades, or maybe they'll go to other instances to get things like starlights or earn currency for empowerment scrolls.

As much as I don't like them in lootboxes, the Ettenmoors, or being available outside of raids at all, I still think this isn't a big deal. It has the potential to generate some revenue and interest in other kinds of group content. Both of which are sorely needed right now.


To my knowledge Starlits aren't in the EB loot table, so players will still have to go elsewhere to have a reasonable chance of acquiring them through their own gameplay.

[MessyR]

I dont see the problem with this, its not like the games hard.

We can get a symbol from T3 skirmishes, BB Platinums have a drop chance and the classic raids will have a chance to drop them.

So whos for BG T2HM Full Runs? or a quick OD first 4 wings? 45 mins isnt alot of time.

Get real, this has to be the worst update for symbols, surely? As soon as people realise BG and OD drop them T3 skirmishes wont get a look in.

Next up the zergers will be given them for free in PVP, excellent

[chrisli]

I don't particularly like this either. I don't have a problem with getting nice stuff from the epics, but it shouldn't be the best stuff available. I mean, getting a first age symbol should take a little more effort than doing a soloable quest, which is part of the point of having "shiny" items. If everyone can get one easily, it's not all that special.

I suggest they change this to a 2nd ager, although I think there's a bit of a dilemma in that many players already have 2nd agers from the skirm camp. Maybe instead they can give out a selection of LI goodies, such as a few t9 or t10 relics, a few scrolls of empowerment (the 95 versions of course ), maybe some shards to give people a head-start on melding the relics they want. I'd even be okay seeing a star-lit crystal, since you still need a decent weapon for the crystal to make a difference. And of course some people will go ahead and use the star-lit on their 2nd agers, but for other people it might be a motivation to get a 1st ager since they don't want to use the crystal on just anything. (A year or so ago, I kept looking at the goodies I'd been storing in my vault and looking forward to having the 1st ager to use it on. I can't speak for others, but it was motivating for me.)

[Tobias_R]

Hi,

I don't like this at all tbh. I also didn't like that you could barter for SA's right after HD was released.

This has nothing with elitism or 'only i should have the best gear' to do. I have never been the best geared player out there and have only had 2 FA's total at cap on all my chars ever.

The reason i don't like it when the best gear is to easy to obtain is rather that it takes some fun away for me. I like to have something to fight for, i like progression. To me a big part of the fun i have playing is trying to get better, trying to overcome hurdles to get 'that thing i want'.

Walking to a barterer and buy the stuff or get it 'for free' in a quest dont give me the same feeling of accomplishment or the proudness of 'i managed'! And as those two things are a big part of what i enjoy i don't welcome changes like this. Ymmw of course.

Regards.
/T

[Gagmuk]

I would say this is a oops. anyone that comes across this and recieves a elder king 1st age symbol as a reward for epic quest line should be sure to /bug this out in game.

If you have it so you receive and email notification for the bug reports filed in game, you can click reply on the notification and attach an update about a bug or attach a screen shot.

Im pretty sure they intended that a 2nd age symbol to be the reward for a epic quest reward.

Unless a Dev states otherwise, then i would hope they explain why they are giving em away as a quest reward. I have been playing LOTRO since 2007 and have never had my hands on 1 so this would be a bit of a shock to get 1 now.

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

Don't everyone start screaming about this yet. Maybe this was a slip up. I would say bug it as I'm sure this was meant to be a 2nd age symbol instead of a 1st age. But that said before the Great River Epic we didn't get a 2nd age symbol before from an epic and since then we got a 2nd age bridle from RoR and a 2nd age symbol from HD already. So giving out a single 1st age symbol isn't 'horrible' but at the same time this is the top LI symbol so getting it so 'easily' could be considered a bit of a slap to the raiding community. But again we don't know if this was intended to be a 1st age or what the reaasoning would be for a 1st age to be here other than its the last book of Volume 3 which has been full of never before seen LI rewards.

What is this raiding community that you mention? There haven't been any new raids for about a year now, any raiding community has either gone to the Moors (where first agers will be necessary to redress the balance due to mit changes, or have left the game entirely. While if this had happened this time last year I would have railed against it, because it isn't a reward for raid completion anyway (t3 skirmishes don't come close to flight t2 hm, for instance), I think this is a useful tool for Ettenmoors players to be able to update their gear and get back into the fray as soon as possible.