Recovery state - Created for Jinjaah

[Thrifkori]

Hello,

sorry in advance for my bad english (I could be wrong in naming the skills right), but here are my two cents.

Yellow Trait line:
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- Storm blades is not effectiv compared with raging blade
- Born of Combat damage is a bit to low for the cooldown
- the rest works fine
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Blue Trait line:
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-Bracing attack:
30 seconds cooldown, 1-2k healing and costs 3 fervour
better change it to:
20 seconds cd, 2-3k healing + hot , and costs 2 fervour
- it would be cool if you can see, when the passiv auto heal is available again (noble fighter i belive )
-the rest is good
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Red Line:
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as already mentioned the missing damage is the biggest problem
- increase the damage and accelerate the attacking speed
- the cooldown of sprint is far to long +25% speed for (15s/45s) not comparable with the guardians sprint
- the cooldown of club (not sure whether the name is right) decreasing it from 10 to 5 seconds would be very nice

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Other issues:
- The function of true heroics disappeard (5 Min cd for 15 sec)
- Disarming is a huge problem, ==> return of hedge (the idea of disarming the enemy sounds nice )
- No fear could remove more effects (maybe also shorter cd)
- After HD every class have at least one skill to remove cc.
i would appreciate getting back the skill with removing cc every second
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Moors:
- fighting against a warg / reaver / BA with orc-craft / fell wrought damage is like beeing a chicken waiting to get impaled, but thats a different kettle of fish.
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My regards to Jinjaah for reading all this

Greetings from Gwaihir

[Rainothon]

Moors:
- fighting against a warg / reaver / BA with orc-craft / fell wrought damage is like beeing a chicken waiting to get impaled, but thats a different kettle of fish.
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My regards to Jinjaah for reading all this

Greetings from Gwaihir

Jinjaah announced this will be adressed with U13 as OC/FW damage will go through physical mitigation first (with a reduced pass akin to beleriand damage).

[Thorcar]

Hopefully BR will be open soon to test out these potential changes but it would be nice to know what to expect sooner rather than later so we have time to discuss everything and give our feedback.

BR is supposed to open "later this this week" so we'll see.

[Sthrax]

With U13 around the corner, what is in store for us champs? There was a lot of talk mostly about red line fix's and some blue. I hope with the (recent events) champs didn't get pushed aside again. At the least increase our Base dps in red line on par with most other class's. There were some good idea's in this thread can you tell us which direction we are headed. Hopefully BR will be open soon to test out these potential changes but it would be nice to know what to expect sooner rather than later so we have time to discuss everything and give our feedback.

When we were first told that U13 would give Champs a revisit to fix the stuff they broke, I had high hopes. Now that U13 is about to go to BR, and we have gotten zero information on this revisit, I have adjusted my expectations to non-existent. With Turbine, once it hits Bullroarer, it isn't going to get anything more than very minor tweaks and bug fixes. I don't believe for a minute that any of the effort put into this and other threads dealing with Champ issues will bear any fruit in U13.

[Dolamrothdame2]

When we were first told that U13 would give Champs a revisit to fix the stuff they broke, I had high hopes. Now that U13 is about to go to BR, and we have gotten zero information on this revisit, I have adjusted my expectations to non-existent. With Turbine, once it hits Bullroarer, it isn't going to get anything more than very minor tweaks and bug fixes. I don't believe for a minute that any of the effort put into this and other threads dealing with Champ issues will bear any fruit in U13.

I hope you're wrong about that. I've got six characters total and two of them are champions. One of them is the second one I started playing and I joined the game about...six weeks before HD, I think. She's level 44 right now and traited full red line. I felt the difference when the changes were made, even though she was relatively low level. I picked the red line because it was supposed to do the most damage, but it has been a major disappointment. I suppose I'm what you'd call a casual player, though I do solo skirmishes and am trying to perfect my game play (age and slowing reflexes against me there). LOTRO is my first MMO. I do still enjoy my red line Champ to some extent, but things have really become a slog, and I find myself preferring to play the other characters instead of her. I came to the Champion forum to see if it was just me and after reading a bit started a new Champion on another server, traited full yellow line. Wow, what a difference! She is fun to play, and feels more like what a Champion is supposed to be. I also run my Guardian main with my kinnie's main, who is primarily blue line Champ, though he is a bit of a hybrid build. He seems much more formidable damage-wise than my poor red-line girl and almost as hardy as my guardian. I suppose I could just re-trait her, but I wanted to experience the differences of the two different lines. So far, the red line's main difference is that she feels puny compared to my minstrel, my guardian and even my hunter! Very unimpressive damage and not very much survivability. So I hope there will be some fixes with 13, or I will give up and re-trait her.

My eyes still tend to glaze over a bit when you folks talk about mitigations and buffs and all the rest, but I certainly agree with everything that has been said about the underpowered red line.

[Rainothon]

When we were first told that U13 would give Champs a revisit to fix the stuff they broke, I had high hopes. Now that U13 is about to go to BR, and we have gotten zero information on this revisit, I have adjusted my expectations to non-existent. With Turbine, once it hits Bullroarer, it isn't going to get anything more than very minor tweaks and bug fixes. I don't believe for a minute that any of the effort put into this and other threads dealing with Champ issues will bear any fruit in U13.

Let's look at this from a different perspective. JinJaah has been hella busy. He's doing the best he can. But he can only do so much. He is all we've got and he is just about smeared out like butter on too many breads or how was that expression again?

You may not like me saying this, but to me every tweak we champs get is gravy. I am of the opinion that there are other areas/classes of the game that need way more than gravy.

Such is the state of LOTRO at this moment. We're looking at breadcrumbs and hopefully we'll get enough of them to fill our bellies. But slices of bread are being handed out very, very carefully because LOTRO is both short on bakers and grain.

[Anreon]

Let's look at this from a different perspective. JinJaah has been hella busy. He's doing the best he can. But he can only do so much. He is all we've got and he is just about smeared out like butter on too many breads or how was that expression again?

You may not like me saying this, but to me every tweak we champs get is gravy. I am of the opinion that there are other areas/classes of the game that need way more than gravy.

Such is the state of LOTRO at this moment. We're looking at breadcrumbs and hopefully we'll get enough of them to fill our bellies. But slices of bread are being handed out very, very carefully because LOTRO is both short on bakers and grain.

Heard that one (the busy part) already during Beta, that was 4 months ago.

And I am of the opinion that balance issues on such a fundamental level and the fact that 1-2 lines (out of 3) of a class are neither compatible nor fun is one of the areas of the game that need far more than 'gravy'.

[dietlbomb]

Heard that one (the busy part) already during Beta, that was 4 months ago.

And I am of the opinion that balance issues on such a fundamental level and the fact that 1-2 lines (out of 3) of a class are neither compatible nor fun is one of the areas of the game that need far more than 'gravy'.

More-or-less agreed.

1. None of the trait lines are as fun as the pre-HD champion.

2. The overpowering of the classes is the devs' solution to the classes' oversimplication. The classes are too simple to allow players to adapt to difficult situations now. There is no tactical thinking. Underskilled/inexperienced/undergeared players used to be able to experiment and figure out ways to win with their minds. That isn't possible with the simplification now. If the devs wanted newer/less-skilled players to be able to experience the content, the content had to be made easier. They made the content easier by cranking up player dps. There will be no balance unless they repair the classes. They don't plan on repairing the classes any time soon, as they are ostensibly happy with this setup.

[Malganis_Lefay]

i just hope that battle frenzy gets fixed
its so anoying that it doesn´t activates 40% of the times use it

[Shumzuda]

Most significant issue - massive skill gap when using certain skills while using 2H weapons or dual wield 1H. Maybe they could make all skills 'fast' like they did for the burg?

[ararax2]

Spent about a week straight on my champ.
Leveled from 85-95 with 2nd age 1h and 2nd age 2h swords (pretty perfect maxed legacies). Did a ton of deeding/grinding and warbanding. Havent geared up enough for any serious instances. Have not played blue line at all.
Just my 2cents, I was going to wait until the new patch, but since there are no real changes there I dont need to evaluate them...

Big Problems
1. Red Line Fervour Generation is terrible.
Most important Red Line Legacy is Battle Frenzy Reduced Cooldown (Must get to -15)
This is crazy that red line usability requires a yellow skill and a legacy for that yellow line to function properly.
Red line dumps fervour like it is going out of business, it has a huge problem building fervour, and often feels laggy both DW and 2H. You stripped away Wild Attack's extra pip on crit, which leaves us with 2x 1 pip builder skills and 1x 2 pip builder skill. This means we need battle frenzy to function.
Suggestion:
Maxed out Wild Attack should give bonus pip on crit.
Champions Duel should give 1 pip per 5 seconds.


2. Red Line Flurry is useless.
It takes a while to get the speed up, then if you arent pounding away non stop it goes away. Very few battles you pound the entire fight.
Make it a duration of combat bonus, not 8 seconds. Also buff it to 25% (I know we get a passive 10%, but I side trait that on yellowline and still get yellow's 25%)
Yellowline Flurry is also bad, but AOE doesnt need speed buff, so its not a HUGE problem like redline is.

3. Red Line Damage is junk.
I'm relying on my 2 Hytbold set to get enough pips, crits are nothing compared to AOE, and things just take forever to die. Champions duel takes a while to build up, and only goes to 30%... The second and 3rd strike bonuses cost a TON of points, and provide weak benifit. Red line was heavily built on AA damage, which is now really weak.

3. Bring Back Hedge
Maybe as a cheap blue line investment.

4. Merciful Strikes is garbage.
It isnt worth using when the enemy's health is down.
It isnt worth increasing the threshold, the legacy only offers 10% damage bonus.
Needs a major buff, it no longer has a 0s CD, so why not make it gain pips now instead of dump them?

5. Devastating Strike stinks
Long Long animation.
Does junk damage
Long CD
Dubious debuff
Considering how it is the redline version of rend, how about put a BIG stacking bleed on it...
Or just rename it to fancy face slap...

6. Controlled Burn
So weak, so short so lame.
In short it should be minumum of 30 seconds duration 1 min CD
15% Damage 15% attack speed 1 pip per 5s Big power Regen

7. Heroics,
Very week, needs a buff.

Medium Problems
1. Blade Storm is useless.
Other skills do way more damage for way less pips
Give it to Redline and Blue Line as well, they both could use a nice free AOE popper at lower levels.

2. Brutal Strikes should not cost a point.
It should be a general use skill across all 3 lines.

3. Deep Strikes is bad
Uncontrolled bleeds are bad. In certain instances bleeds are bad. This could force the player into retraiting which is bad.
Maybe make it as a buff skill... 30s duration 30s CD that makes strike skill crits cause bleeds. Also the bleeds need a buff/tier.


4. Hamstring Root/Sprint
Not worth taking, sprint doesnt give enough bonus, hedging only needs 1 second max. No reason these are multi point dumps. Replace it with something flurry based. Red line should be about attack spam.

5. Born for Combat
Pretty weak damage, but doesnt cost pips, laggy fireoff.

Small Problems
1. Fear nothing...
Long Cooldown, no real benifit. Needs a buff.

2. CBR...
Rename it, the name makes no sense now.



Some stuff I would like.
1. Ferocious Strikes
make this work the same way as Fury of Blades, let it fire at 0 pips, and let the damage scale up with fervour. And i dont mean nerf the damage, We need a heavy hitter when we run out of pips.

2. Pip Gen
In Redline make the dump skills Brutal/Remorseless/etc.. give back 1 fervour per crit.

In summary the huge amount of lag in Red line is due to 2 issues.
1. Attack speed
2. Inconsistant Fervour Build up.
They both make redline jarring to play, and very unenjoyable, even if it did 50x more damage.

[mrfigglesworth]

i'd like to bring up the point of attack duration once again. It seems like in both dps lines, we have to build up for our attack duration and easily lose it. I would like to make a plea for this random element of attack duration in our dps lines to change. Here's 2 scenarios that describe why this is a good idea:

first scenario. Yellow champ starts attacking foe and immediately gets flurry buff, and flurry buff refreshes for the duration of the fight. Champion feels like a champion.

Second scenario. yellow champ starts attacking foe and gets flurry finally 30 seconds into the fight. The flurry buff wears off after 30 seconds, never refreshing. fight ends on a low note. Champ recognizes the fight was slow and clumpy and was waiting for skills to fire a lot of the time. Champ recognizes there's no way to control flurry procing besides hitting all aoe skills.

Basically, every time we have a fight where flurry is up nearly 100% of the time, we become used to that feeling of awesomeness even though there's nothing we can do about it. So the next time we have a fight where it doesn't happen, we wonder what the heck we did wrong. We wonder why flurry didn't proc. We recognize we're not at our full potential but can't change that one bit.

So the flurry proc and the red line -attack duration buildup proc are both going to become "the norm" when they proc and really really really annoying when they don't. Thus, I propose we either 1. give anyone who traits yellow line flurry buff 100% of the time and give anyone who traits red line the -15% attack duration 100% of the time OR 2. Make it part of a skill in yellow line (for flurry) and red line (for -15% ad) that will refresh it. The random element is just frustration.

[Rainothon]

i'd like to bring up the point of attack duration once again. It seems like in both dps lines, we have to build up for our attack duration and easily lose it. I would like to make a plea for this random element of attack duration in our dps lines to change. Here's 2 scenarios that describe why this is a good idea:

first scenario. Yellow champ starts attacking foe and immediately gets flurry buff, and flurry buff refreshes for the duration of the fight. Champion feels like a champion.

Second scenario. yellow champ starts attacking foe and gets flurry finally 30 seconds into the fight. The flurry buff wears off after 30 seconds, never refreshing. fight ends on a low note. Champ recognizes the fight was slow and clumpy and was waiting for skills to fire a lot of the time. Champ recognizes there's no way to control flurry procing besides hitting all aoe skills.

Basically, every time we have a fight where flurry is up nearly 100% of the time, we become used to that feeling of awesomeness even though there's nothing we can do about it. So the next time we have a fight where it doesn't happen, we wonder what the heck we did wrong. We wonder why flurry didn't proc. We recognize we're not at our full potential but can't change that one bit.

So the flurry proc and the red line -attack duration buildup proc are both going to become "the norm" when they proc and really really really annoying when they don't. Thus, I propose we either 1. give anyone who traits yellow line flurry buff 100% of the time and give anyone who traits red line the -15% attack duration 100% of the time OR 2. Make it part of a skill in yellow line (for flurry) and red line (for -15% ad) that will refresh it. The random element is just frustration.

You nailed it.

One might argue it's the same for crits and devastating strikes, they are random too right? But it's not the same. Attack speed is such a foundation of how champion melee feels.

I remember in the old fervor-stance days, sometimes I'd forget to activate the fervor stance. Do you know how I noticed? Not because of the lack of fervor buildup. Not because of the lack of damage of my strikes, no I noticed because of the eew! sluggy combat speed.

The short attack duration is so much of what makes the champion fun to play. It's better not to make that depend on the RNG.

[mrfigglesworth]

What if, when battle acuity was maxes out, it gave great cleave a 100% chance to proc flurry?

And for red champs controlled burn could max out the attack duration buff.

Just some thoughts.

Another idea that springs to mind is tying a small attack duration buff to merciful strike with a 6 second duration. Would make merciful strike a lot more desirable

[Syl19]

Hedge will not be coming back but Blood Rage and Continuous Blood Rage will be providing a disarm removal now while Continuous Blood Rage will provide disarm immunity for the duration of its effect.

-Jinjaah

Thoughts on change?

[Rainothon]

It's something, and that's much, much better than nothing, so I really appreciate this.

It does however tie two cc-counter cooldowns together, so I did ask Jinjaah to evaluate the cooldown duration on CBR.

Not really an issue in casual PvE where it's merely annoying to have to ride out a stun/disarm. But potentially lethal in PvMP where champs are squishy to begin with.