The Anti-Foreigner Revolt(Roleplay)

[Melyrical]

I'm curious... for all the people crying about the lack of sensitivity in this plot line...

Do you not read books? I don't know about you but I have read many books where racism of some sort was the main plot. It was an evil that needed to be dealt with or simply a daily occurrence that had to be tolerated. Or even popular games like Dragon Age... elves are treated like scum and are lower class citizens. You're saying that because there are a few over-sensitive bleeding hearts on the server that everyone should just RP concerts, dancing and happy time hugs to not offend them? Should Bioware also stop making their hugely popular game because someone out there might get offended?

Yeah no. Sorry, but they are just going to have to grow a backbone. It's a STORY. Get over it. I for one, am enjoying it.

[frickinmuck]

Why can't it be about race and about foreigners? Why must it be about gangs? Because the gangs are bad guys without a doubt and that the foreigners are good free folk who are all sunshine? There's a pattern... Everyone loves fighting the bad guys but the moment there's something that brings a bad light on what's normally accepted as the ''good guys'' everyone loses their mind [Insert Joker Meme here.] Racism is seen ALL THROUGHOUT LOTR. Every single book has it left and right. The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, The Silmarillion.. The Third Age is especially full of racism. There isn't any strange at all about a small percentage of people being racist.

I appreciate your input, but I phrased things exactly the way they are advertised for that exact reason. It's propaganda, it's charged words, filled with nationalism and emotion.

The funniest part is everyone thinks this is legitimately about foreigners.

I'm curious... for all the people crying about the lack of sensitivity in this plot line...

Do you not read books? I don't know about you but I have read many books where racism of some sort was the main plot. It was an evil that needed to be dealt with or simply a daily occurrence that had to be tolerated. Or even popular games like Dragon Age... elves are treated like scum and are lower class citizens. You're saying that because there are a few over-sensitive bleeding hearts on the server that everyone should just RP concerts, dancing and happy time hugs to not offend them? Should Bioware also stop making their hugely popular game because someone out there might get offended?

Yeah no. Sorry, but they are just going to have to grow a backbone. It's a STORY. Get over it. I for one, am enjoying it.

First of all, you can't draw parallels between what Tolkien did, and what you're doing. Most people are familiar enough with the lore to understand how race plays into his worlds. But there is a massive difference between players experiencing a storyline that was brought to life by Tolkien and a gaming company whose motives and boundaries they trust, and a story and messaging that is clearly written by another player. They don't know you, they have no reason to trust you, or to believe there isn't something more to your words than just a harmless plot. How exactly do you expect the average player to distinguish your play-acted racism from actual racism? Narrative allegory has been used for harsh political purposes since time out of mind.

What you don't seem to get is that while this may be a story to you, something that you have a lot of background on and something you are well invested in, the vast majority of players out there don't have the context you have. What to you is a propaganda board advancing the plot you've put together, is an actual racist screed in chat. Do you guys not get that?

Not everyone experiences the game like a book, with a compartmentalized narrative they make a conscious choice to participate in on a certain level, and with well-understood limits and boundaries. A great many people experience the game as an amorphous extension of their social activities. It's not a story for them or a book for them in the way you guys are implying. For them, sure there is a story and a lore and a fantasy world, but ultimately they are just real people hanging out with other real people. When they see a message in chat, they know a real person wrote it and a real person chose the message, and chose to post it there.

Like I said, this isn't just about you. You're choosing to bring the broader community into it, and the community-minded thing to do would be to consider the feelings of the community in what you choose to impose upon them. Because ultimately that's what you are doing - imposing your narrative on the community at large. That could be a great thing - something people really get into and experience as a gift - or it can be a bad thing. Something people feel alienated by and experience as a slap across the face.

But I don't need to waste my breath telling you any of that, or explaining that different players have different experiences of the community and the game. It should be enough that people from the community are giving you very clear feedback that they don't feel comfortable with it. It's up to you to decide what you will do with that information. Will you make small adjustments so that it's something everyone can enjoy, or will you continue to stick to your plan and ignore the feedback you're getting?

[Melyrical]

Those /other/ players can choose not to be part of it. Good thing about RP is you are always in control of your own story. TV broadcasts don't change for over-sensitive people. Books don't change for them, games don't change for them. If the person is exposed to it, they simply flip the channel or skip the book/game. If they don't want to be part of the RP, /ignore the propaganda and void RP that makes them uncomfortable. Pretty simple.

[JaxV]

I hope players who have been real life victims of heart break, assault, getting stabbed, shot, experiencing harassment, betrayal, falling off horses, burning their tongue, biting the inside of their mouthes, chipping a tooth, broken a bone, been scolded, lied to, etc. don't have their day and their game ruined by coming across Roleplaying. I already know people who don't feel like they can go anywhere near a made up universe, roleplaying a made up character, with people they've never met, nor likely will, as they are upset by the rampant randomness of thousands of players who make up every situation in this game. This will further alienate more players from the area.

I suppose you could say 'That you're really getting ridiculous.' if that happens.

Most people, when playing a fantasy RPG, expect that there will be the things you mention within that game. They may even expect a little rivalry between races. However, there is a MAJOR difference between that and out and out, intentional racism. Comparing racism to burning ones tongue is, quite frankly, disgusting. People do not expect to see the kinds of 'anti-foreigner' (as you call it) messages you are posting in Bree. Most people assume they are safe from racism in a game, and rightly so. It is a vile thing.

Lets have a look at some extracts from your original post, shall we?

In essence this is racism at it's finest.

Racism at it's finest? The only kind of person who could suggest there is anything 'fine' about racism, is a racist.

For those who've been involved or observed any of those involved, feel free to comment and share your thoughts and experiences. The good, the bad, and the ugly(With constructive criticism respectfully done to help).

As long as we don't have an issue with racism, right? Because you seem to be completely avoiding taking any responsibility for how these notes and events may appear to someone who has genuinely been a victim of racism.

--Nailed crudely in haste around Bree-town are parchments with Anti-Foreigner Propaganda. “Stand against the foreigners, my countrymen! On high they’ve taken hold of positions once held by able and proud Bree-landers! Cast out these foreigners and political sympathizers who oversee our folk, holding back able Bree-landers and our lands future! Stand together against them!”--

--Found around Bree is Anti-Foreigner propaganda. “The Watch is headed by a man from faraway lands who’s no idea what is best for Bree. Our Mayor is sympathetic to him and his fellow foreigners. Cast them out, and any other who would allow foreigners to hold such important positions in the stead of a Bree-lander! Bree for Bree-folk, led by Bree-folk, for the future of Bree!”--

These statements are so depressingly similar to the anti-immigration chants of present real life. So similar to the propoganda of far right facist political parties across the globe, that anyone who has been a victim of these slogans cannot help but make the association. This is something you must take into account, and not right off as ridiculous. As Frickinmuck so eloquently discussed, these are real people here.

Players have been hired out to cause trouble around town. Below are examples which I welcome any player who wishes to, to enjoy/displeasure themselves with.
-Pebbles/Small rocks thrown from roofs or alley-ways by youngsters. These are aimed at foreigners and Watchers. Or you Bree-landers who dress outlandishly.
-Horses are cut from their hitching posts, so that the horse will either stay, or wander about, or even wander off down the road. These are indiscriminate, so it can happen to anyone.
-Racist letters are found outside homes occasionally, demanding them to leave.
-Merchant Stalls are vandalized(Mostly foreigners, occasionally Bree-landers).
-Small containable fires(Haybales, wagons, etc)
-Non-fatal/Non-dismembering/Non-brutal assaults.(Quick hit and runs, a hit, few kicks, run off, etc.)

There are other things and those are mainly just annoying pranks.

There are people who experience these 'annoying pranks' every day of their lives. They are far more than annoying - they are soul destroying and tormenting. They are not pranks, they are racist attacks. Not something you expect to find to such an extent in a fantasy RPG.

While this is appearing large, it is very small. Approx 3% to 5% of Bree-landers are actively involved, while a few percent more are supporters and help them do what they do.

I have gotten mostly positive feedback so far and that it appears that people are enjoying it thus far. Occasional disliking complaint off and on but it's usually about how this sounds like Nazi Germany and Fascism.

So for the sake of a few people having a jolly good time, you ignore the complaints?

In the future there is plans for this to go into a more hostile phase once everything is discussed between all involved parties and organized based upon agreements and pre-arranged events/results, ex cetera. Know that while everything is supposed to be chaotic, we try our very best to keep it organized. Controlled chaos is awesomez.

More Hostile? I have no words for this, only disgust.

Your entire tone is of one who completely disregards the feelings of others and wants only to recreate some sick facist fantasy. As I said before, people do not join a game based on LOTR and expect to see players behaving in such an inappropriate way. Maybe the odd lore based assumption, jibe or rivalry, but not this blatant racism. You do know it is not just a white american player base, right?

Does it Fit? Yes. It fits completely.

It does not fit within a MMO with a Pegi rating of 12. Whether you think it fits within the lore or not is irrelevant. Many aspects have been stripped down to suit the audience, racism being one of them, and for a very good reason. You are not actually in Middle Earth, you are in 2014 behind a computer screen, as is everyone else, including children. Some of them victims of racism and the kinds of messages you are posting, some of them highly impressionable and likely to be influenced to racism if they take part. Are you absolutely sure that everyone who has expressed an interest is an adult? Come to think of it, are you sure that everyone who has expressed an interest is not a raging nazi and you have not set the ball rolling for a virtual hot bed of racist activity?

These are considerations you must take responsibilty for when you consider something like this, and you don't appear to be taking any considerations other than your own enjoyment.

I can go awhile, but I wouldn't have enough space and I am sure no one would read all of it. However, second part. Yes. It gives them the opportunity to do whatever they want. Nothing in life, be it fictional or reality, is ever constant. Different things happen in different places. There is no limitation, and seeing as how they can choose to involve themselves or not, they can do whatever that other players will accept being done to, or with them. It's an agreement afterall, if a player doesn't agree to be involved in this, then they don't need to be. I could disagree with everything in the normal RP session, but guess what, that doesn't change that players will still go about it. You can't please everyone.

Everything does both. You can't please everyone. Majority rules, minority rights, in the political sphere. Roleplaying? No one knows and few are going to go through superb efforts. I'm going through headaches trying to make this as appealing to everyone as possible. But here's the thing... You hate it completely, others completely LOVE IT. Point? Impossible to do either. Everyone's in groups.

How would non-roleplayers experience it? Experience what... Seeing a few emotes or adverts while they run through to a vendor, or to a quest, or read mail, or just sit around watching people roleplay? How do I know? No one does. We're not mind-readers. What's in concern is the roleplayers primarily. This is roleplay. Not.. Roleplayers choosing specific roleplay to make non-roleplayers happy. We're not books. Everyone does what they do.

But this is not something that is private. Some people might actually like to spend some time in Bree and not everyone just runs through. Are you assuming only you and your RP friends ever hang out there? It is a hub of activity, especially in the evenings and more so at weekends. If I was out, in real life, at an outdoor music event for example or just outside my local pub chatting with friends and someone started shouting out all this 'anti-foriegner' stuff do you know what would happen? They would be stopped and asked to take their BS elsewhere. They may even be arrested for inciting racial hatred. I would be disgusted and alarmed just as I would be in Bree, and so would many many others.

You seem to disregard others opnions too easily, that's a real shame.

Oh boy, it's not even Christmas and people are giving me plenty of juicy assumptions. Firstly I hadn't any idea about the festival event. I was doing this prior to it, and then it happened. Secondly I was the only white person in my neighborhood for 4 years, and one of a few whites in what was mainly black in elementary, middle, and high-school even after I moved. I know plenty about racism and bullying, including bullying due to my race. You see, I don't go into shock and freeze like a deer stuck in the headlights. I know the difference between RL and a game. The difference between knowing that this is not even being directed towards me specifically due to legitimate racism, but that this is a part of a fantasy between two characters which I have the ultimate say in. Because it IS my character. See, there's the empowering part. The ability that I can say 'No, I will NOT be discriminated against in this RP.' And, Then... Stay with me... The CHARACTER can actually FIGHT BACK, in ways that most can't in the real world. THAT is a bittersweet taste in fantasy too. So do NOT assume that just because someone does something, that they don't know anything about it. Because you just make yourself out to be narrow-minded. Thank you for taking that into account.

You have no idea what real racism is. You were bullied, and that's awful, but please dont assume to know what real racism is.

And don't assume to know how people will react and feel about your actions.

You have been infomed numerous times now that this racism is offensive, inappropriate, and ill-judged. You have chosen to ignore that and carry on anyway.

Shame on you.

[Laire]

Racism is rampant in not just LOTR, but LOTRO as well. It even exists in many of the NPC quests, the Dunlendings vs the Rohirrim being one of the best examples. There's even a derogatory name that Tolkien made up: straw-heads. That's what Dunlendings call Rohirrim.

Characters will be racist. This does not mean the player behind the character is racist. Goodness, these races don't even exist in reality-- there's no such things as Gondorians, Haradrim, Dunlendings, or Rohirrim.

Racism is a hot button issue for a decent amount of people, yes, but part of being a heavy RPer is building a story that deals with character development, and often it deals with issues that make both a player and a character think. But, again, this plot is clearly targeting heavy RPers that want to create a story, like an interactive novel or screenplay. Racism *is* something that is dealt with even in children's literature (Harry Potter, for instance, with the races being wizard-blood and non-wizard blood). That all said...

First of all, you can't draw parallels between what Tolkien did, and what you're doing. Most people are familiar enough with the lore to understand how race plays into his worlds. But there is a massive difference between players experiencing a storyline that was brought to life by Tolkien and a gaming company whose motives and boundaries they trust, and a story and messaging that is clearly written by another player. They don't know you, they have no reason to trust you, or to believe there isn't something more to your words than just a harmless plot. How exactly do you expect the average player to distinguish your play-acted racism from actual racism? Narrative allegory has been used for harsh political purposes since time out of mind.

Because the races of Rohirrim, Dunlendings, Gondorians, Dale-men, Haradrim, and so on are non-existent. How can the player behind the character be racist to a race that does not exist? It's like saying I am racist against Klingons. They don't exist, it's more or less impossible. I am not a Gondorian in real life. If a Bree-lander hates my character because she is a Gondorian, how can that possibly be against me? I am not a Gondorian.

I also expect the average heavy RPer to have a good, solid OOC-IC boundary. My character is not me, and if you're a heavy RPer, your character should not be you. If you are exploring heavy RP and cannot distinguish between IC actions from the OOC player, then you (general 'you') need to step back and realise that this IS a story, an interactive script being built on the fly. That is what heavy RP is in its purist form.

Not everyone experiences the game like a book, with a compartmentalized narrative they make a conscious choice to participate in on a certain level, and with well-understood limits and boundaries. A great many people experience the game as an amorphous extension of their social activities. It's not a story for them or a book for them in the way you guys are implying. For them, sure there is a story and a lore and a fantasy world, but ultimately they are just real people hanging out with other real people. When they see a message in chat, they know a real person wrote it and a real person chose the message, and chose to post it there.

Then that message is not for them. The message is written in a heavy RP format, and I do not see it directed at light RPers, non RPers, or even heavy RPers who have no interest in that sort of plot. It's not at all directed at them, in my humble opinion. I've seen the message many times and it seems to clearly state 'RP plot'.

Do people really not realize that this is pretendy fun time (borrowing the term from a friend), and part of pretendy fun time for some people is acting another character through an interactive script? Pretendy fun time for many others who RP is music. For a lot of heavy RPers, the music community ruins engaging plot RP, but you don't see people trying to shut them down (at least to my knowledge). Even if a topic is sensitive, if it's a topic considered appropriate for the T-rated setting (if the topic is in Tolkien's works and children's books, I think that, however dark it gets in reality, it's still 'T'), then one cannot say to take it elsewhere. It's simply not against the Terms, and its audience is another group entirely.

(I don't know if I'd go the racism route for a public plotline myself, but if it doesn't break the T-rating, then anyone can make any public plotline they want).

I haven't read the whole thread so I don't know if someone has said that they felt like they were being condemned with the message of anti-foreigner propaganda when the foreigners are Rohirrim, Gondorrim, Elves, and so on, but they applied it to their reality. If that's the case, you certainly have my condolences. I have not lived through it nor can I imagine living through it.

[JaxV]

I'm curious... for all the people crying about the lack of sensitivity in this plot line...

Do you not read books? I don't know about you but I have read many books where racism of some sort was the main plot. It was an evil that needed to be dealt with or simply a daily occurrence that had to be tolerated. Or even popular games like Dragon Age... elves are treated like scum and are lower class citizens. You're saying that because there are a few over-sensitive bleeding hearts on the server that everyone should just RP concerts, dancing and happy time hugs to not offend them? Should Bioware also stop making their hugely popular game because someone out there might get offended?

Yeah no. Sorry, but they are just going to have to grow a backbone. It's a STORY. Get over it. I for one, am enjoying it.

I'm a massive Dragon Age fan and I can honestly say I never once felt personally offended by the treatment of elfs. It's part of the story, written in by the creators of the game, and it allows the player to make choices.

There is a big difference between that and players coming in and altering the tone of an environment for their own enjoyment without a thought for other players. The messages posted in regional etc do not give a choice, they are spouting racist propaganda for all to read and that is unfair.

Give the 'bleeding heart' nonsense a rest please, having consideration for others is not a bad thing.

[Imadwarfdude]

Most people, when playing a fantasy RPG, expect that there will be the things you mention within that game. They may even expect a little rivalry between races. However, there is a MAJOR difference between that and out and out, intentional racism. Comparing racism to burning ones tongue is, quite frankly, disgusting. People do not expect to see the kinds of 'anti-foreigner' (as you call it) messages you are posting in Bree. Most people assume they are safe from racism in a game, and rightly so. It is a vile thing.

Lets have a look at some extracts from your original post, shall we?

Racism at it's finest? The only kind of person who could suggest there is anything 'fine' about racism, is a racist.


As long as we don't have an issue with racism, right? Because you seem to be completely avoiding taking any responsibility for how these notes and events may appear to someone who has genuinely been a victim of racism.

These statements are so depressingly similar to the anti-immigration chants of present real life. So similar to the propoganda of far right facist political parties across the globe, that anyone who has been a victim of these slogans cannot help but make the association. This is something you must take into account, and not right off as ridiculous. As Frickinmuck so eloquently discussed, these are real people here.


There are people who experience these 'annoying pranks' every day of their lives. They are far more than annoying - they are soul destroying and tormenting. They are not pranks, they are racist attacks. Not something you expect to find to such an extent in a fantasy RPG.

So for the sake of a few people having a jolly good time, you ignore the complaints?

More Hostile? I have no words for this, only disgust.

Your entire tone is of one who completely disregards the feelings of others and wants only to recreate some sick facist fantasy. As I said before, people do not join a game based on LOTR and expect to see players behaving in such an inappropriate way. Maybe the odd lore based assumption, jibe or rivalry, but not this blatant racism. You do know it is not just a white american player base, right?


It does not fit within a MMO with a Pegi rating of 12. Whether you think it fits within the lore or not is irrelevant. Many aspects have been stripped down to suit the audience, racism being one of them, and for a very good reason. You are not actually in Middle Earth, you are in 2014 behind a computer screen, as is everyone else, including children. Some of them victims of racism and the kinds of messages you are posting, some of them highly impressionable and likely to be influenced to racism if they take part. Are you absolutely sure that everyone who has expressed an interest is an adult? Come to think of it, are you sure that everyone who has expressed an interest is not a raging nazi and you have not set the ball rolling for a virtual hot bed of racist activity?

These are considerations you must take responsibilty for when you consider something like this, and you don't appear to be taking any considerations other than your own enjoyment.


But this is not something that is private. Some people might actually like to spend some time in Bree and not everyone just runs through. Are you assuming only you and your RP friends ever hang out there? It is a hub of activity, especially in the evenings and more so at weekends. If I was out, in real life, at an outdoor music event for example or just outside my local pub chatting with friends and someone started shouting out all this 'anti-foriegner' stuff do you know what would happen? They would be stopped and asked to take their BS elsewhere. They may even be arrested for inciting racial hatred. I would be disgusted and alarmed just as I would be in Bree, and so would many many others.

You seem to disregard others opnions too easily, that's a real shame.


You have no idea what real racism is. You were bullied, and that's awful, but please dont assume to know what real racism is.

And don't assume to know how people will react and feel about your actions.

You have been infomed numerous times now that this racism is offensive, inappropriate, and ill-judged. You have chosen to ignore that and carry on anyway.

Shame on you.

You have shown exactly what is wrong with this server. You've shown exactly the reason why there is very little publicly advertised plotlines or events that go beyond music and inns, etc. You have taken something and completely demonized it and compared me to a White-Supremacist and you know what, I am german. So guess what, what happens then to my feelings? Oh, wait, right, so since you feel like that others may take offense you feel that it's okay to offend others to make your point. Amazing. I'm going to clap for you. Silently. And then play the worlds smallest violin.

You want to know why we have issues on this server? It's because people are so unreceptive to others OOCly, that it makes anything ICly impossible. I have made several events which have been completely far off to the left field and with a wooping hundred people each, both directly and indirectly, who loved each event. And I have gotten no less than dozens involved who've enjoyed this.

Get over yourself and your self-proclaimed title of public speaker for people. I've been spoken to by a total of six, out of dozens, who've had an issue. One of them was resolved after explaining and the other five boil down to this forum and another in game. You want to go about the subject of racism and say that people are logging in, getting their feelings hurt, reliving horrors, and crying? You want to tell me that players are afraid because of this game plot where the majority of things that happen are just arguments and side-remarks, with the occasional agreement for an assault? Have you even paid attention at all to anything about this server? There has been more problems with everything else that racism is the last thing on anyones mind. Now that I am bringing it into the playing field as the main progress for the storyline, it's suddenly the biggest problem thinkable? Wake the hell up and get off your proud high horse! You are speaking for yourself. You don't know at all, so you take it upon yourself to assume and then make a large issue out of what has been up to this point NOTHING nearly as to what it's been made into.

You have done nothing but insult and degrade not only myself, or this event, but every player who has gotten involved and enjoyed it. So before you go about insulting anything or anyone or even daring to call something like this the cause to conflict and fractioning of the players or even the root to a future OOC racist issue, why don't you reflect on your own damn words. Because you've just made racist comments yourself, insulted the knowledge of all involved, and even went so far as to be a complete hypocrite. You're disgusted? I'm not only disgusted but infuriated that you would lecture anyone else when you yourself aren't anywhere near different than what you are claiming another to be.

You haven't given any constructive criticism. You've given insults. You've made assumptions of people without any basis. Please don't continue. And no, I am not saying not to comment further, because it'd be against ''My racism'', which isn't existent, it's because you've done nothing but add fuel to what was originally just a small campfire. You're a part of the problem. Not a part of the solution.

[Imadwarfdude]

I'm a massive Dragon Age fan and I can honestly say I never once felt personally offended by the treatment of elfs. It's part of the story, written in by the creators of the game, and it allows the player to make choices.

There is a big difference between that and players coming in and altering the tone of an environment for their own enjoyment without a thought for other players. The messages posted in regional etc do not give a choice, they are spouting racist propaganda for all to read and that is unfair.

Give the 'bleeding heart' nonsense a rest please, having consideration for others is not a bad thing.

Nailed crudely in haste around Bree-town are parchments with Anti-Foreigner Propaganda. “Stand against the foreigners, my countrymen! On high they’ve taken hold of positions once held by able and proud Bree-landers! Cast out these foreigners and political sympathizers who oversee our folk, holding back able Bree-landers and our lands future! Stand together against them!”

Found around Bree is Anti-Foreigner propaganda. “The Watch is headed by a man from faraway lands who’s no idea what is best for Bree. Our Mayor is sympathetic to him and his fellow foreigners. Cast them out, and any other who would allow foreigners to hold such important positions in the stead of a Bree-lander! Bree for Bree-folk, led by Bree-folk, for the future of Bree!”

Tell me again how these are telling people that all foreigners are bad people and that they MUST be kicked out and hung and killed and all that other stuff. Oh.. And before you say anything, guess what Regional Chat is? It's used for In-Character Advertisement. So, yes, these things are posted by the racists themselves for their own goals. Oh.. Did that mean a seperation of OOC and IC? Yes it did! Continue.

[JaxV]

Wow, hit a nerve did I

I will not saying anything else as you are not coming from a place of listening to your fellow players, you are coming from a place of anger and bull headedness so there is no point. It doesn't matter what anyone says as long as everyone agrees with you and your ego.

Have fun with your little game, just don't be surprised when the complaints and reports start.

[frickinmuck]

I hope that some common ground can be found. I don't think it benefits anyone to have arguments and disagreements. The point is to have fun. Surely there must be a way to achieve that for everyone.

[Imadwarfdude]

I hope that some common ground can be found. I don't think it benefits anyone to have arguments and disagreements. The point is to have fun. Surely there must be a way to achieve that for everyone.

I've done what I can, but I am not going to change the entire make up of the plot to accommodate those who don't want to get involved because of what it stands for presently. It was made the way it was for it's own reason. If players don't wish to get involved because they find that it's current shape and form aren't to their individual likings, then that is how it is. No event caters to everyone. That's just how this is going to be. I tire of arguing and repeating myself and having to explain things in different ways. After having made events in the past that people said wouldn't work, would fail, and that wouldn't be in way progressive for the community even a little, all of my events have added something. This will just be another one of those underdog ones that a select crowd will speak poorly of but will inevitably succeed.

Want proof?

The War in Ered Luin.
The Northern Conflict.

Each had a hundred involved per both directly and indirectly involved. This is by far the most OOCly dogged event so far. I am not going to make dramatic changes to the make up, but as I have said, constructive criticism and ideas, suggestions, and personal experiences are welcomed. As noted before in an earlier posting, that things have been effected by the discussions with players and kinships. Even right now I am working on the making of an event for the near future.

So for any future posts; No. Nothing major will change. Racism will be the propelling factor as to why things are progressing, but it is not going to be a rampant uncontrolled spree of hostilities and violence. Aside from the one or two cases that have been brought to my attention, which were the extremes of this, everything may seem chaotic, but things are under control..

[Imadwarfdude]

Wow, hit a nerve did I

I will not saying anything else as you are not coming from a place of listening to your fellow players, you are coming from a place of anger and bull headedness so there is no point. It doesn't matter what anyone says as long as everyone agrees with you and your ego.

Have fun with your little game, just don't be surprised when the complaints and reports start.

If there's any reports or complaints I am sure they'll all stem from you and your zeal to defend the people with the mighty sword of truth and shield of justice and all that. You didn't hit a nerve. Not with anything directed towards the plot. You hit a nerve with your hypocritical arrogant egocentric self-appointments and insults towards those players who enjoyed partaking in the event thus far. You're not talented enough to hit a nerve, just irritate me with a never ending throw-up of insults and disrespect and biased assumptions, as well as your taking things and demonizing them, as well as using exagerations and hyperbole to make issues that weren't present prior to.

You shouldn't say anything else, as you are not coming from a sensible place nor are you bringing anything constructive to the table except "Change this, change that, don't do this, don't do that, I hate this, you should be ashamed of that..." And yes... Anger? Some, maybe. Because I have to be civil and tolerate someone talking about racism and accusing the players that they're racist just because they choose to play a character in roleplay within a fictional world a certain way.

And finally... My ego has little to do with it. I've changed things, despite my not wanting to. I have listened and spoken with players that I hadn't wished to, just to make things more smooth. I've taken insults and accusations and assumptions just like the ones you've thrown at not only me, but other players. Everyone has an ego. Everyone has pride. And while mine may show, I do what I can to swallow my pride for the bettering of the PLANNED EVENT. So, I do not apologize if my refusal to change the entire basis of my event to something else, to please you and a select few.

Now that we've said our piece, please don't bother replying, as I have finished with what I want to say, and now we're done here. Thank you for your addition to the thread, and have a good day/night.

[VeruccaSault]

I like community plots. I've helped coordinate a couple. I think they are a great chance to bring the rp community together and create new and interesting experiences that we might not get every day.

I think this particular plot will not do that. In fact, I believe the way it is being presented here will have the exact opposite effect.

While I think the story line could be an interesting dynamic for an exclusively heavy-rp community, we do not have an exclusively heavy-rp community here on our server. I don't even think we have a majority heavy-rp community, at least not in "it's purest form" as was stated above (by who, I can't remember). We never have and we likely never will. One has only to walk through Bree to see that. Say what you will about IC/OOC boundaries, but let's be honest with ourselves. It takes practice to build up that type of skill. Even people who have been rp'ing for years don't quite have it down. If someone's IC/OOC boundaries are lacking, they are going to take personal offense to what is being said (as opposed to just their character taking offense). That happens in regular rp, even without having potentially inflammatory things like racism/anti-foreignerism/whatever added to the mix. Sure, these races/nationalities don't exist in our own real world. It doesn't matter. Separation is separation. Are we trying to bring the community together, or are we trying to fracture it?

I think the idea for this plot is interesting, I really do, however I think it is better suited for a smaller group, not the server as a whole. Having said that, so long as there is a choice of whether to become involved and as long as there is no IC or OOC harassment to people who do not want to participate, maybe drama can be avoided.

BTW, there's no need to respond or repeat anything that's already been said in response as I'm not interested in arguing, I just wanted to offer an opinion.

[Calthadal]

Howdy, i'm going to to bump in here and say it, my experience of this plot thus far has been.... positive. *gasp* shocking, right?

Come on, let's be honest, it makes sense both within the lore and the Landroval Roleplaying community, Imadwarfdude has outlined that quite clearly and all you need to do is visit Bree to see that it is working. Characters a talking, gossiping, arguing about what is going on like living, actual people and i'm amazed. It's personally given me a chance to flesh out my own characters (Erowar the Mirkwood Elf and and Watcher Arondol!) way beyond what I could perceive before out of idle and empty chitchat. For a starting out Roleplayer such as me, it's been fantastic.

Yes, racism is a tough subject, but it's also a real one and grants our characters a chance at deeper character arcs as they deserve. Besides, give people a little more credit, most folk I've encountered have gone out of their way to ensure that none of in-character arguments or attacks are affecting the people personally, and hey, that's fantastic, it shows that if anything this plot is drawing the community closer.

So, here's my hearty approval of the Anti-foreigner Revolt plot. Keep up the good work.

[Takekaze]

After reading through this whole thing I'm beginning to think that some people simply can't keep IC and OOC apart. Oh the misogyny! Oh the racism! Please, if you can't stomach that, don't RP and I'm dead serious about that.

Nobody is hiding behind characters. The people play them are real? Thanks Captain Obvious, I didn't know that. It's the same old strawman argument that usually kills RP. Newsflash: It's about the characters, not about the people who play them.

Sean Bean played Boromir in the LOTR movies. Who was important in the story? Sean Bean or Boromir? Boromir. Did Sean Bean's personal ideas have anything to do with Boromir? No. Sean Bean was the vehicle to transport Boromir onto screen.

Sir McKellan is gay. Gandalf isn't even human. Oh my, how could Sir Ian do this without throwing a sh*tfit! How could he not whine and scream about all kinds of -isms! Oh, I Know. Because he's a professional performer who "gets it".

Your personality =/= your character.

IC =/= OOC

Same applies in RP.

Example: I've RPed Nazis. I don't exactly like Nazis. But I've RPed them. Why? Because the plot involving them was pretty delicious. And I enjoy(ed) playing evil characters, because it takes a lot more skill than the generic goody-two-shoes Mary Sue (for which LOTRO seems to be the cesspool.)

Your personality =/= your character.

IC =/= OOC

Also, the plot. What about the plot? What about the chance for further character development? For taking part in something that isn't solely centered around your character and desires?

Oh wait, I forgot. RP today, no matter where you go (MMORPGs, board, chat), is full of egomaniacs sticking to Mary Sues and clichéd, low quality RP with the same pattern over and over again. The standard LOTRO town RP can be observed in WoW as well. It's 1:1 the exact same thing. Heck, at least in WoW it gets livened up by the Daily Death Knight (new DK player, fresh out of DK starter zone, who thinks he's ultra badass and tries to burn down the town, or similar.)

It's no longer a dead horse. It's the dust of a dead horse but people keep beating it! And it's only one thing: BORING!


As for the idea at hand: it can be observed in human history countless times and last I checked the Bree-landers were humans, too. It's kind of mind blowing that some people claim to know what "the Bree-landers" would do in the current status of WotR. No way could human nature kick in. It's impossible!


Also, thanks for reminding me again why I no longer RP outside of a very small circle of friends and wouldn't touch the RP in MMORPGs even with a 20 ft pole and a full body hazard suit.

And curse the OP for trying to come up with something other than the usual dull town RP that is present in every single MMORPG on the planet. How dares he to liven it up with something different! (That last paragraph was sarcastic, so I'm adding this because I know someone won't get it, there is always one who doesn't.)

[frickinmuck]

Various comments

First of all, it's great that you're chiming in with an opinion, but there's no need to be rude about it.

Second, if we were just talking about IC/OOC I would agree with most of what you said. But we aren't. At least, I'm not. I'm talking about Regional, where for days there were racist screeds posted, at a time when a major festival has drawn a great many people to Bree.

When a plot becomes more public like that, you can't just focus on your own fun, with no consideration for the public at large. Because this isn't Laurelin, this is Landroval, and many people don't have a clue what the heck you're doing or what it's all about. And Bree is a hub for newcomers and new players, as well, and as the guy above mentioned (who by the way did not deserve the treatment he got here), young players who will not understand what's going on.

I am in full support of broader RP events like this. I have a deep respect for the amount of work that goes into organizing and implementing something of this complexity, and I wholeheartedly applaud your efforts. But I don't get the impression that this plot is being handled in the spirit of community, or in the spirit of open RP. The responses and the treatment that I have seen of those who have expressed concerns or given feedback only serve to reinforce that impression. Frankly, that is shameful. It's one thing to stand behind your ideas and believe in what you're doing, it's another thing to attack people who come to you with concerns about it.

One thing is certain - with that type of reaction, the feedback you do get will be limited. Maybe that is as you wish, but few are going to want to stick their necks out by voicing any concerns or feedback here.

I get that it must feel like someone is coming along and stomping all over your hard work, and misunderstanding your intentions. I imagine this type of response could be stressful, and might dampen the excitement and joy of finally putting all your hard work into action. I am sorry if that has been your experience, because no one deserves that. But it is in everyone's best interest to approach conflict with collaboration in mind, and try to resolve it in a way that best serves the interest of the community.

If that's not something you're willing to do, my recommendation would be to at least move your plot into RP channels, and keep the most inflammatory aspects of it out of public channels.

And curse the OP for trying to come up with something other than the usual dull town RP that is present in every single MMORPG on the planet. How dares he to liven it up with something different! (That last paragraph was sarcastic, so I'm adding this because I know someone won't get it, there is always one who doesn't.)

Just because someone expresses concerns about how one aspect of a RP event is being implemented does not mean they lack imagination, don't understand or value RP, have a taste for the mundane, or whatever else people here have been trying to equate them with. Let's not reduce people to stereotypes in an attempt to discredit their feelings or opinions. It's more productive to stick to the facts.

[Calthadal]

First of all, it's great that you're chiming in with an opinion, but there's no need to be rude about it.

Second, if we were just talking about IC/OOC I would agree with most of what you said. But we aren't. At least, I'm not. I'm talking about Regional, where for days there were racist screeds posted, at a time when a major festival has drawn a great many people to Bree.

When a plot becomes more public like that, you can't just focus on your own fun, with no consideration for the public at large. Because this isn't Laurelin, this is Landroval, and many people don't have a clue what the heck you're doing or what it's all about. And Bree is a hub for newcomers and new players, as well, and as the guy above mentioned (who by the way did not deserve the treatment he got here), young players who will not understand what's going on.

I am in full support of broader RP events like this. I have a deep respect for the amount of work that goes into organizing and implementing something of this complexity, and I wholeheartedly applaud your efforts. But I don't get the impression that this plot is being handled in the spirit of community, or in the spirit of open RP. The responses and the treatment that I have seen of those who have expressed concerns or given feedback only serve to reinforce that impression. Frankly, that is shameful. It's one thing to stand behind your ideas and believe in what you're doing, it's another thing to attack people who come to you with concerns about it.

One thing is certain - with that type of reaction, the feedback you do get will be limited. Maybe that is as you wish, but few are going to want to stick their necks out by voicing any concerns or feedback here.

I get that it must feel like someone is coming along and stomping all over your hard work, and misunderstanding your intentions. I imagine this type of response could be stressful, and might dampen the excitement and joy of finally putting all your hard work into action. I am sorry if that has been your experience, because no one deserves that. But it is in everyone's best interest to approach conflict with collaboration in mind, and try to resolve it in a way that best serves the interest of the community.

If that's not something you're willing to do, my recommendation would be to at least move your plot into RP channels, and keep the most inflammatory aspects of it out of public channels.



Just because someone expresses concerns about how one aspect of a RP event is being implemented does not mean they lack imagination, don't understand or value RP, have a taste for the mundane, or whatever else people here have been trying to equate them with. Let's not reduce people to stereotypes in an attempt to discredit their feelings or opinions. It's more productive to stick to the facts.

You and I seem to have been reading two very different conversations, from what I've seen here there's been about fifteen percent actually constructive criticism and the rest have been more or less direct attacks on the OP. He has responded with incredible patience considering he's been called a Fascist, a racist, and a misogynist several times by people "voicing their concern". He has every right to be a little angry in my humble opinion.

Moreover I am unconvinced we are talking about the same server. In my experience the plot has done nothing but bring people together to build on this intriguing storyline, I myself have made many more friends and met many more characters than I ever did for many months prior to the event. Making it public, at least from what I've seen, has encouraged new folks to try their hand a RPing themselves, introducing a host of new characters to the Bree scene.

That said, I respect your intentions, but I have simply not seen the chaos you describe.

[frickinmuck]

You and I seem to have been reading two very different conversations, from what I've seen here there's been about fifteen percent actually constructive criticism and the rest have been more or less direct attacks on the OP. He has responded with incredible patience considering he's been called a Fascist, a racist, and a misogynist several times by people "voicing their concern". He has every right to be a little angry in my humble opinion.

Moreover I am unconvinced we are talking about the same server. In my experience the plot has done nothing but bring people together to build on this intriguing storyline, I myself have made many more friends and met many more characters than I ever did for many months prior to the event. Making it public, at least from what I've seen, has encouraged new folks to try their hand a RPing themselves, introducing a host of new characters to the Bree scene.

That said, I respect your intentions, but I have simply not seen the chaos you describe.

You're definitely right about that. We are seeing different conversations. I haven't seen the OP called a fascist or misogynist. Can't remember if I've seen him called a racist - I think it was at least implied at some point. But that only goes to show that maybe all of us could benefit from a re-read of these comments from the other person's perspective. I agree that the OP has been at least civil for the most part - aside from mocking and dismissing some of the concerns brought up. I wasn't referring to him alone when I made my comment.

Anyway, I don't think there's really any point in my discussing it further. I think I've made my thoughts clear on the issue. Regardless of what's been said here, I wish you the best of luck with your plot.

[Imadwarfdude]

Look at the title.

Now look at me.

Now give me popcorn.

That is all.


Thank you everyone so far for your feedback and input. As noted there is an event in the planning and when everything is organized and put together, this will be updated with that info.

[Imadwarfdude]

The first event is planned and advertisement shall be started immediately. The link to said thread is below.

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...-Movement-)-RP

[mrgiles]

I love this idea. I'm so sick of finding that the only rp on those server are lame concerts and filled with more lame dancing. I will gladly be a part of this rp if it is going on while I'm logged in. I've experienced racism being Mexican and living in salt lake city. I find racism to be something that's taken far too serious these days thanks to all the race baiters on tv like Al Sharpton. My dwarf is so racist against elves, Charek Ironspear at your service.

[DRNA]

Normally people want to claw and squabble over inconsistencies in Tolkien's writings and then point a finger at Turbine whenever they imagine some infraction against the lore. But the initiation of this topic is especially problematic in that it goes against the spirit of goodness and of the shared human condition, to which Tolkien's writings ultimately speak. Insomuch that playing-characters of various races in Lotro freely interact and are able to role-play together, this proposal also maligns creativity and the artistic process and does an injustice to this game. My understanding of Tolkien's works is one of equality and diversity, where the races are considered different but equally important, interdependent, and supportive of the same overarching goal (Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits, and those of the race of Man at least). It is troubling to me that this is something being dismissed. This rp theme and advertisement for such is just a very bad idea.

[Imadwarfdude]

Normally people want to claw and squabble over inconsistencies in Tolkien's writings and then point a finger at Turbine whenever they imagine some infraction against the lore. But the initiation of this topic is especially problematic in that it goes against the spirit of goodness and of the shared human condition, to which Tolkien's writings ultimately speak. Insomuch that playing-characters of various races in Lotro freely interact and are able to role-play together, this proposal also maligns creativity and the artistic process and does an injustice to this game. My understanding of Tolkien's works is one of equality and diversity, where the races are considered different but equally important, interdependent, and supportive of the same overarching goal (Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits, and those of the race of Man at least). It is troubling to me that this is something being dismissed. This rp theme and advertisement for such is just a very bad idea.

There is no absence of racism in any world. In the books there is clear racism. You can say that these were books wrote all about happiness, brotherhood, everyone loving one another, getting along, and teaching some lesson about friendship.. But you'd fall short. There was hate between Dwarves and Elves, racism found in all the books. There was distrust, hate, and absolutely no room for discussion when it came to Rohirrim and the Easterlings. Gondor and Rohan completely refused to help or have anything to do with each other, until the very last minute. Bree-landers were distrustful, kept to themselves, and were generally unsavory towards foreigners.

Thinking that everything has to be sunshine, hand holding, and dinner parties with 50 different music groups having a ball is narrow minded and "this proposal also maligns creativity and the artistic process and does an injustice to this game." You are unrealistic. You expect there to be no racism, even though it's present? Even if it weren't written down clear as day, do you honestly think there is no racism? There is individualism, there are preferences, differences, etc. The "Human factor", which can be applied to all the races, even if not of Man. You have elves who went completely crazy and started killing one another in droves within The First Age. You have The Battle of the Five Armies, where if not for the Goblins and Wargs, it'd been a full on slaughter between Elves, Men, and Dwarves.

In the story all the races have purpose and they all play a part. But that's in a book, the storyline, where the reader is just being told everything. Things are different when you take on the role of a person of a certain race in that same world and play the role with all things known considered. There's always going to be bitterness, hate, etc. Whether or not it's towards a race or ethnicity ALL the time is obvious. However there WILL be cases. Be realistic. It hasn't been overlooked. It's just not relevant when you're comparing the omniscient reader of a book to the first person limited view of the character. Dramatic Irony, is just one technical term to describe things.

[Sapience]

I have stayed mostly out of this as I do most discussions of RP plotlines, but I felt it might be time to step in and remind everyone of a few things. Especially as you're discussing a very hot button topic.

For starters, our CoC is very clear about what is and is not tolerated and any kind of racism is solidly in the 'not allowed' column. What's more is the CoC clearly states;

22. Although the Game is a role-playing game, you may not claim “role-playing” in defense of any violation of the Code of Conduct.

I realize this discussion and the RP plotline being discussed are referring to races in game and not real life. That said, you are all on a very, very thin ice with this concept. It is a very simple thing to step over the line and find yourself in a very real, very serious violation of the CoC and no, "we were just role playing" will not save you if/when it happens.

Keep that firmly in mind.

[Tallon617]

I love this idea. I'm so sick of finding that the only rp on those server are lame concerts and filled with more lame dancing. I will gladly be a part of this rp if it is going on while I'm logged in. I've experienced racism being Mexican and living in salt lake city. I find racism to be something that's taken far too serious these days thanks to all the race baiters on tv like Al Sharpton. My dwarf is so racist against elves, Charek Ironspear at your service.

So you rp a racist just because you can? Wow logic there way to go. And if it wasn't for those lame concerts and lame dancing there wouldn't be as much traffic on this server. If you don't like it go elsewhere. And by the way I suggest you read what Sapience posted. You push the envelope too far you'll find yourself in violation of the CoC. Just because you experienced racism doesn't give you the freebie of acting like one through rp. I've been subjected to racism all through my childhood into adulthood but I will not be a racist even if it's rp related. You're adding to the baiting just as much as the real world morons.