Player Guide: Class Changes Summary: Captain

[Elrantiri]

Armor set bonus issues:
DN 4-set bonus has the -20% defeat event cooldown (which I'm unsure it should have?) and it reduces RC from 15 sec to 6 seconds, which is a lot more than 20% (it's 20% of the old 45s cooldown though). It also reduces SL cooldown and RoutC cooldown by the "old 20% amounts".

(Greater) Erebor Leader 2-set bonus and Tognir 2-set bonus does not seem to work on Improved Sure Strike (I have not tested with normal Sure Strike).

[aardnebby]

So RockX no longer works for Turbine, no changes to herald in Bullroarer release notes. No addressing other issues with the class except an adjustment to power costs?

Maintenance mode it is then.

[Elrantiri]

So RockX no longer works for Turbine, no changes to herald in Bullroarer release notes. No addressing other issues with the class except an adjustment to power costs?

Maintenance mode it is then.

Nonono, don't forget we also got new sounds for Battle-shout and Routing Cry

LotrO golden age incoming!

[aardnebby]

Nonono, don't forget we also got new sounds for Battle-shout and Routing Cry

LotrO golden age incoming!

Lol exactly
[sarcasm]Because the exact tone of "Aaargh!" is what I find disappointing about the class "revamp". [/sarcasm]

[DelgonTheWise]

So RockX no longer works for Turbine, no changes to herald in Bullroarer release notes. No addressing other issues with the class except an adjustment to power costs?

Maintenance mode it is then.

I don't think no changes means maintenance mode (though there is other evidence for that, particularly IMHO lack of much end game). I feel like Capts are in a pretty good place myself, and don't feel like tons of changes are really *needed*... Other classes seem rather worse off.

[aardnebby]

I don't think no changes means maintenance mode (though there is other evidence for that, particularly IMHO lack of much end game). I feel like Capts are in a pretty good place myself, and don't feel like tons of changes are really *needed*... Other classes seem rather worse off.

I disagree.

We have a herald that's forced on us with the removal of banners but is still a useless pain in the backside. No sign of the banner / armament merge we were promised in update 13, and they canned the guy who made that promise.

We have 10m and 7m radius buffs when all the new content involves splitting up over wide areas. Design fail there.

We have buffs tied to trait lines so they are basically to cover holes in captain performance rather than actually help our fellowship. That's why as predicted literally months ago I am asked to spend all my time in red line unless there is no real healer or tank, then I am asked to stand in for that role.

The only good thing is we can actually do those roles, though arguably that's because the game is so easy right now...

[Lunasa]

So RockX no longer works for Turbine, no changes to herald in Bullroarer release notes. No addressing other issues with the class except an adjustment to power costs?

No sign of the banner / armament merge we were promised in update 13

It is very common that some changes would not appear in the patch notes. When one is waiting for a promised change, he/she should check it in game before complaining.

This change is finally made, it is just missing in the notes for some reason. Captain's trainers have a new barter option where you can exchange any existing armaments for a general "Token" which in turn can be exchanged for any skill granting a herald with an outfit of your choice. These skills seem to be similar to what Lore Masters have for a long time - for example, you can have 8 or more different Raven skills and the only difference between those will be their look. Same with heralds now.

I did not spend much time looking at all the options (many pages) as I did not have any armaments with me to try bartering. But the option is there.

[HeirOfNumenor]

The buffs the Heralds give have also been changed:

Banner of War: +2% Melee, Ranged and Tactical Damage
Banner of Victory: -10% Power Cost
Banner of Honour: +3% Physical Mitigation and Tactical Mitigation

Dang....I just came back to play my captains after a few months off....and I noticed that the Herald of War no longer gives Might and Agility increases to my Captain That was (to ME) one of the few reasons to play a Captain instead of Champion or Guardian....it also allowed me to equip gear with slighter lower might/agility stats while increasing will and fate - because I knew my herald would balance me out...Dang Dang Dang again

[Elrantiri]

Dang....I just came back to play my captains after a few months off....and I noticed that the Herald of War no longer gives Might and Agility increases to my Captain That was (to ME) one of the few reasons to play a Captain instead of Champion or Guardian....it also allowed me to equip gear with slighter lower might/agility stats while increasing will and fate - because I knew my herald would balance me out...Dang Dang Dang again

There's no reason to increase Will on your Captain though, and Agility is not important for a Captain. I'd suggest you stack up on Might with some Fate and Vitality as second priority.

With that said, the +2% damage is quite weak at lower levels (where the old might+agi bonus used to be really strong), however, at endgame I prefer the +2% bonus.

[aardnebby]

It is very common that some changes would not appear in the patch notes. When one is waiting for a promised change, he/she should check it in game before complaining.

Sure, great advice, I should totally do that.

Just as soon as you point me at the location for the Bullroarer installer.

It's very common that some people make suggestion that I am sure make complete sense from their point of view. When one is making such statements, maybe he/she should check they are actually possible before hitting "submit".

And while you are dispensing such valuable wisdom, perhaps you could let us know if herald DPS has increased to something worth bothering with, or if it's just how tough they are?

And how much has survivability improved?

[Lunasa]

And while you are dispensing such valuable wisdom, perhaps you could let us know if herald DPS has increased to something worth bothering with, or if it's just how tough they are?

And how much has survivability improved?

Sorry, but I refuse to answer questions which are asked in such tone.
My post above was made to correct some misinformation which appeared in this thread. I am done here.

[aardnebby]

Sorry, but I refuse to answer questions which are asked in such tone.
My post above was made to correct some misinformation which appeared in this thread. I am done here.

Well you failed to correct misinformation, because I said (emphasis added):

So RockX no longer works for Turbine, no changes to herald in Bullroarer release notes. No addressing other issues with the class except an adjustment to power costs?

Maintenance mode it is then.

My statement is 100% factually correct. You even acknowledge it here:

It is very common that some changes would not appear in the patch notes. When one is waiting for a promised change, he/she should check it in game before complaining.

What's entertaining is I used exactly your words in return:

It's very common that some people make suggestion that I am sure make complete sense from their point of view. When one is making such statements, maybe he/she should check they are actually possible before hitting "submit".

So if you are upset about my tone, consider how I felt about yours?

I think it is clear your purpose is not to "clear up misinformation" but a bit of passive aggressive trolling, otherwise you would be happy to clear up more "misinformation" in the form of what the actual changes to the herald are.

[HeirOfNumenor]

There's no reason to increase Will on your Captain though, and Agility is not important for a Captain. I'd suggest you stack up on Might with some Fate and Vitality as second priority.

With that said, the +2% damage is quite weak at lower levels (where the old might+agi bonus used to be really strong), however, at endgame I prefer the +2% bonus.

Thank you for your advice....

[Adanriele]

Give red captains 1-1.5 min cd sprint instead of make haste! (give option for it in trait tree!) Solo red cappies like myself will <3 turbine!

[aardnebby]

Aaaaannd

Surprise surprise, heralds still not fixed. Armament changes didn't make it in I guess.

So heralds are still doing common damage, dying to normal mobs at random and to add to the fun we actually need them more due to mastery and mitigations nerf.

Is there actually a dev looking at captains right now? Lets look at the patch notes:

Captain

Grave Wound is now learned at level 30, down from level 42.

OK. Great. I am sure this helps out new players who had trouble with that because you could get the trait points before you got the skill IIRC.

All armor sets which reset Oathbreaker's Shame now have a chance to reset Oathbreaker's Shame, with a cooldown built into how often it can occur.

Itemisation dev did this.

Power costs have been adjusted for the majority of Captain Skills.

Uh... so we don't suck power in yellow line now? I'll have to test this.

The Minstrel's “Call to Greatness” should properly trigger defeat events and bring up the auto-skill bar.

Minstrel fix.

Dwarf Herald attack animation is now in sync with the damage being reported as attacks hit the target.

Did anyone actually care about that?


Basically none of the major issues addressed.

[Almagnus1]

Basically none of the major issues addressed.

And those are?

[aardnebby]

And those are?

Outstanding issues:

Short buff range of auras, EG herald buff, IDOME, Motivation - Suggested solution would be to make this a skill like our tactics (massive 80m range, duration of say 10 seconds) but is re-triggered every 3 seconds without user input.

Poor herald performance (various) - At level cap DPS is still pathetic and the Heightened Allies trait is effectively worthless compared to almost any other trait even at double the cost - no idea what I can suggest here because something tells me even if the herald does 10 times the DPS it does now (400dps instead of 40!) the pathing is not going to improve and we are stuck with the herald whether we want it or not. There are several AoE skills that kill the herald despite us being told most would not affect it. It cannot be summoned on the move (you have to stand still for the induction). It still suffers various "eye" effects. The only contribution to the playability of the captain is when you want x-brother while soloing, wouldn't a stance do just as well (such as Warspeech used to work for minstrels).

X-brother skills - Lack of flexibility - should be made general skills - why are we buffing other peoples tanking ability when we are in tank stance? Likewise heals? I want to shield brother the tank when I am a healer! I want blade brother always available because more dps = faster runs. I want to song brother when I have a captain tanking and he needs more power, or because I have a full team of minstrels and RKs and LMs who want more tactical mastery.

Tactics buff over-rights tactics of other captains in the group (sometimes? For some reason with Focus/Relentless it didnt seem to over-right, but with On Guard/Relentless the most recent one took precedence). Tactics skills should be more controllable OR stack.

Tactics - on guard - still utterly awful. The only person in the group with power problems is the tank traited captain (so power cost is pointless for 5 out of 6), the parry rating and defence % are only useful if you are taking damage. Of no interest to anyone.

Tactics - focus - 2% tactical mitigation? huh? Incoming healing % isn't really a buff, it's the same as increasing all your heals by a few % (less than 5%, because most people who need healing a lot already have incoming heal %, and going from say 130% to 135% is actually an improvement of approx 3.8%). Yes yes it increases self heals, but seriously?

IMHO reduced length of duration on last stand still makes it pointless, putting it into the tank line is counterproductive and the heal is pathetic. Can we do something with this skill to make it something I will use at some point? A bubble for example?



Not captain specific:

Classes split into 3 traitlines, only 2 specs unlocked for VIPs, blatant money grab here. VIPs should get a free 3rd spec for every character. Then make 4th/5th specs available for sale.

Destiny points removed and never replaced despite sapience saying a new system was in the works.

Apparently the tactics buff not stacking is fixed btw. Lol.

[Elrantiri]

Apparently the tactics buff not stacking is fixed btw. Lol.

Eh? That was fixed months ago? :S

Poor herald performance (various) - At level cap DPS is still pathetic and the Heightened Allies trait is effectively worthless compared to almost any other trait even at double the cost - no idea what I can suggest here because something tells me even if the herald does 10 times the DPS it does now (400dps instead of 40!) the pathing is not going to improve and we are stuck with the herald whether we want it or not. There are several AoE skills that kill the herald despite us being told most would not affect it. It cannot be summoned on the move (you have to stand still for the induction). It still suffers various "eye" effects. The only contribution to the playability of the captain is when you want x-brother while soloing, wouldn't a stance do just as well (such as Warspeech used to work for minstrels).

Heralds are indeed dissapointing, at least at lvl 85 and beyond.

Tactics buff over-rights tactics of other captains in the group (sometimes? For some reason with Focus/Relentless it didnt seem to over-right, but with On Guard/Relentless the most recent one took precedence). Tactics skills should be more controllable OR stack.

Hmm, that's odd :S It seemed to be fixed long ago.

Tactics - on guard - still utterly awful. The only person in the group with power problems is the tank traited captain (so power cost is pointless for 5 out of 6), the parry rating and defence % are only useful if you are taking damage. Of no interest to anyone.

I agree on the power cost bit, some kind of damage buff would be nice (reflect x damage on hit?). -% incoming damage is only useless because most stuff is so easy to heal anyway.

Tactics - focus - 2% tactical mitigation? huh? Incoming healing % isn't really a buff, it's the same as increasing all your heals by a few % (less than 5%, because most people who need healing a lot already have incoming heal %, and going from say 130% to 135% is actually an improvement of approx 3.8%). Yes yes it increases self heals, but seriously?

5% extra healing is worse than 5% incoming healing though. Tanks may have 130% or 135% as you say, but a Captain easily has +40-50% outgoing healing (where extra healing would be added)

IMHO reduced length of duration on last stand still makes it pointless, putting it into the tank line is counterproductive and the heal is pathetic. Can we do something with this skill to make it something I will use at some point? A bubble for example?

I'd like to see it added to the IHW trait (e.g. make the current rank 3 IHW trait a rank 5, where rank 4 adds LS with 3s and rank 5 adds 4s and heal on it)

[aardnebby]

Eh? That was fixed months ago? :S
...
Hmm, that's odd :S It seemed to be fixed long ago.

Yes, the post I was quoting raised these issues in January, so I was making the point that ONE item had been fixed in 3 months and a major update. [EDIT] Actually I had raised some of the points as early as Beta 3, so more than 3+ months.

Heralds are indeed dissapointing, at least at lvl 85 and beyond.

Agreed. And they always have been, so this is an issue that, though RockX tried, has never actually been successfully addressed.

I agree on the power cost bit, some kind of damage buff would be nice (reflect x damage on hit?). -% incoming damage is only useless because most stuff is so easy to heal anyway.

I love that idea, a damage reflect is very in keeping with yellow line while still actually being useful.

5% extra healing is worse than 5% incoming healing though. Tanks may have 130% or 135% as you say, but a Captain easily has +40-50% outgoing healing (where extra healing would be added)

So change the %. Or make the bonus something else. If our healing needs 5% or 10% boost or whatever, dont add it to a group wide buff, give us a trait that does that, or raise the tactical healing on legendary items, or one of a million other things that doesnt involve turning our GROUP BUFFS into a BANDAGE for our own poor class performance.

I'd like to see it added to the IHW trait (e.g. make the current rank 3 IHW trait a rank 5, where rank 4 adds LS with 3s and rank 5 adds 4s and heal on it)

That would be cool, but they would need to shake loose points else where so each trait line is equal number of points. Call Them Out (bleed damage on our tanking line which only gets 2 single target bleeds anyway?) might be a good place to start.

[Edit]
On reflection I note you do not address all of my points, is this because you have nothing to say or because you disagree and don't want to debate the matter?

[Elrantiri]

Yes, the post I was quoting raised these issues in January, so I was making the point that ONE item had been fixed in 3 months and a major update. [EDIT] Actually I had raised some of the points as early as Beta 3, so more than 3+ months.

Ah ok.

So change the %. Or make the bonus something else. If our healing needs 5% or 10% boost or whatever, dont add it to a group wide buff, give us a trait that does that, or raise the tactical healing on legendary items, or one of a million other things that doesnt involve turning our GROUP BUFFS into a BANDAGE for our own poor class performance.

Well, with extra incoming healing in your fellowship, heals from healers in other fellowship(s) (e.g. 24 man raid in moors or 12 man PvE) will also be improved a bit.
I would also consider it to be a lot more of "getting the buff to buff all three aspects" rather than putting it there because our healing needs those 5% extra.

[Edit]
On reflection I note you do not address all of my points, is this because you have nothing to say or because you disagree and don't want to debate the matter?

Bit of both I guess. I've stated several times in this thread that I don't mind x-brother and tactic being locked to the specialization because the buffs help all three aspects (dps, heal and -inc damage). The few % extra healing, DPS or -inc damage you could get by micromanaging which x-brother you wanted at a given time just isn't something I can be bothered with anymore. But then again, I can barely be bothered to start the game in the first place and with the "no instances in 2014+2015" approach by Rowan, I don't see see myself logging in anytime soon.

[aardnebby]

Bit of both I guess. I've stated several times in this thread that I don't mind x-brother and tactic being locked to the specialization because the buffs help all three aspects (dps, heal and -inc damage). The few % extra healing, DPS or -inc damage you could get by micromanaging which x-brother you wanted at a given time just isn't something I can be bothered with anymore. But then again, I can barely be bothered to start the game in the first place and with the "no instances in 2014+2015" approach by Rowan, I don't see see myself logging in anytime soon.

I feel your pain there!

My biggest facepalm moment of the year to date:

Honestly, my primary motivation for applying to the Council in the first place was to participate in the class revamps, and the results remain the thing I'm most proud of. I don't agree with every specific change that was made, and I don't deny that some of the results have been pretty broken (perma-SotD on Captains, anybody?), but at the end of the day Turbine made a huge step in terms of bringing a 7 year-old game in line with modern MMO gameplay. That's a hell of an accomplishment, and I'm proud to have been a part of it.

I literally could not believe he said this. Pretty much everyone I play with find the way the class revamps were done a negative experience. And captain players got some of the worst of it!

Please note this is not an attack on Furtim, I just feel he is very out of touch with the presiding opinions throughout beta and post release.

For reference:
http://steamcharts.com/app/212500#All

Notice the sharp drop after release of HD, nothing like the slower drop off of with the previous expansion. It is clear that HD did very little to boost long term player interest from this chart. (And yes I am aware that steam players are probably a minority of all LOTRO players, but it is a significant enough sample to be statistically representative).

[Elrantiri]

I feel your pain there!

My biggest facepalm moment of the year to date:



I literally could not believe he said this. Pretty much everyone I play with find the way the class revamps were done a negative experience. And captain players got some of the worst of it!

Please note this is not an attack on Furtim, I just feel he is very out of touch with the presiding opinions throughout beta and post release.

For reference:
http://steamcharts.com/app/212500#All

Notice the sharp drop after release of HD, nothing like the slower drop off of with the previous expansion. It is clear that HD did very little to boost long term player interest from this chart. (And yes I am aware that steam players are probably a minority of all LOTRO players, but it is a significant enough sample to be statistically representative).

Well, the revamps are the smallest issues as I see it but issues never the less. The total lack of balancing combined with content that I don't want to play more than once (and barely want to play once...) is what killed the game for me. My understanding from Dev diaries etc was that this revamp would make balancing easier, and since balancing is key for instances and raids, I was optimistic - I didn't mind classes getting a tad simpler if it meant content would be better. Let's just say I'm not really optimistic about this game anymore.

[aardnebby]

Well, the revamps are the smallest issues as I see it but issues never the less. The total lack of balancing combined with content that I don't want to play more than once (and barely want to play once...) is what killed the game for me. My understanding from Dev diaries etc was that this revamp would make balancing easier, and since balancing is key for instances and raids, I was optimistic - I didn't mind classes getting a tad simpler if it meant content would be better. Let's just say I'm not really optimistic about this game anymore.

I can't argue with your logic.

If they started producing two raids a year, the class revamp would have been a necessary evil that worked out arguably worth the cost.

I don't dislike the big battles, I do find them somewhat... meh. Like Skirmishes. Not a real raid, but entertaining for a change.

Of course whats truely ridiculous is they hand out secondary vitality like it's going out of fashion, then are shocked that people have such high mitigations! But rather than reduce how much vitality they give out and rebalance the items, instead they nerf what vitality does, throwing tactical mitigation out of whack...

At the moment the issue I have with balance is that landscape mobs are still too easy, but if I try and tank a real raid it becomes a matter of luck, since two dev crits and it doesnt matter how ridiculous the minstrels healing rate is if two hits in less time than the induction of a bolster kills you.

It's amateur hour for balance despite the high praise that the class revamp was going to fix all the bad old issues!

The revamp is the heart of the issues with content other than big battles and it FIXES NOTHING since we still dont get any new raids. And it is still half finished 5 months after release of HD.

[Almagnus1]

Until you have done development work at a professional level, you're not going to understand that 3 months to fix something is actually average, and sometimes it takes longer. The big killer here isn't fixing the code (that's the easy part), it's the regression testing to make sure that your fix didn't screw something else up, and resolving issues as they appear during the fixing process. I mean, if you want them to fix it ASAP, Turbine could prolly do that, but then you'd be complaining about the bugs that'd appear from there.

Really though, it's just patience and persistence - which is why it's crucial to learn how to rehash issues but with a different take on it so you can keep your idea on page one or page two, and also how to post stuff so you can get others to comment on the issue. The more unique posters that view something, and the more that can agree with you, will help give Turbine the direction they need. Another part of that is learning how to keep issues current but still play completely within the CoC.

[aardnebby]

Until you have done development work at a professional level, you're not going to understand that 3 months to fix something is actually average, and sometimes it takes longer. The big killer here isn't fixing the code (that's the easy part), it's the regression testing to make sure that your fix didn't screw something else up, and resolving issues as they appear during the fixing process. I mean, if you want them to fix it ASAP, Turbine could prolly do that, but then you'd be complaining about the bugs that'd appear from there.

You know, I do actually understand how professional project management works. Usually professionals try to look at the implications before they write a single line of code or make a start on whatever the project is. EG, lets say I give everyone 3000-4000 extra fate. Well, what does fate contribute? Crit rating, regens and now tactical mitigation. Hmm... maybe 3000-4000 is rather a lot, perhaps if all we actually want to do is increase regen we should just do that, since increasing Fate will do other stuff too!

Why give everyone 3000 free vitality on gear, then complain about mitigations being too high? If they wanted to increase average Max Morale then just increasing that stat from items is what they should have done. A fundamental rule for dealing with complex systems is that when you wish to make a change, keep it simple! The less you change, the less unexpected consequences you will get!

Really though, it's just patience and persistence - which is why it's crucial to learn how to rehash issues but with a different take on it so you can keep your idea on page one or page two, and also how to post stuff so you can get others to comment on the issue. The more unique posters that view something, and the more that can agree with you, will help give Turbine the direction they need. Another part of that is learning how to keep issues current but still play completely within the CoC.

The issue is that the plans are made before most players ever even get to make an objection or agreement. Trait trees were basically set in stone (eg double cost for out of line costs etc) before any players got a say except perhaps the players council. And furtim seems to feel that it's The Best Thing Ever, but many players disagree. Further, Turbine seems to be unable to admit it has ever made a mistake, (since this is admitting they wasted staff time/money) and so refuse to reverse course on anything once it has started no matter how unpopular it proves.

And so we have massive increases of vitality, but when this proves a problem, instead of swapping say 50% of the vitality on every item for an equal share of +max morale, they nerf what vitality does. This messes up the tactical mitigation for most classes so they add tactical mit to Fate and increase the Will contribution. This doesn't really fix the problem, as now vitality is actually less useful than +max morale since you get more max morale for the same itemlevel and vitality only otherwise contributes to OOC morale regen and resistance, but OOC morale regen is basically worthless and resistance is gained at such a low rate it is not worth the cost of stacking vitality, so no one wears primary vit gear anymore unless it is for other reasons (EG set bonuses on BB jewelry). Which means that about 40% of the gear that the item dev spent months creating is now worthless to the majority of players who know what they are doing...

I am 100% serious when I say I honestly believe that gameplay wise every major change to characters since day 1 of helms deep has been more mistake than improvement.


And further Almagnus, you asked me firstly what issues I was talking about, then when I mentioned them, you changed the subject to project management (well, you called it development work, but IMHO the principles apply to ANY project management). So, do you have any on topic comments about the issues with the captain class and or stats in general?