Freep healer RK VS Mini

[Hayden102]

How's the healers going atm in 6man and raiding, I always see alot of minis doing well but the rks getting wrecked, what's going on? how bad have rks been nerfed, I remember them being very very capable healers in the moors. Their hots seem rather small for pvp. Is it because of all of the aoe of spiders etc?

[XPICTO]

How's the healers going atm in 6man and raiding, I always see alot of minis doing well but the rks getting wrecked, what's going on? how bad have rks been nerfed, I remember them being very very capable healers in the moors. Their hots seem rather small for pvp. Is it because of all of the aoe of spiders etc?

rks being wrecked? lol rk is the most powerful healer atm in both sides

[Giliodor]

rks being wrecked? lol rk is the most powerful healer atm in both sides

Allow me to translate this.

My oh so underpowered warg can't kill a healing RK because of OP Armour of Elements. PLEASE NERF!!1! And yes, defiler heals are just fine.

Obviously a class is OP in healing when a single freep/creep can't kill it, this is basic logic.

[XPICTO]

Allow me to translate this.



Obviously a class is OP in healing when a single freep/creep can't kill it, this is basic logic.

if your rk gets wrecked l2p it. You're just a typical freep QQing about creep nerfs and how freeps are UP. Instead of QQ in forums review your playstyle.
also copying outdated posts is pretty lame.

[Geventh]

Imo, RKs got a nice boost in u14.
MV has become the most potent healing skill beating everyhing else.
WoH is there to increase the amount healed (upto +15% incoming healing) and a part of our group healing capabilities.
EftA lost its usefulness since HD because of its long induction, long cooldown and the nerf to its burstheal component.
PtH is basically a potent power restore skill over time in group play. (With legacy)
RW is a channeld group healing skill, bad sadly it can be interrupted easely.
BI is a tiering HoT with a decent expiration heal, which can be used on the move.
WoE and EoE our bubbles, since HD on low CD.
Our Fates Endwind takes 60% incoming damage of your whole fellowship for 20s. (Overpowered IMO)
Rune-sign of Winter a small HoT with -10% incoming damge buff.

As you can see Runekeepers have alot of decent skills which are all needed or required to be an effective healer.
In comparison to a Minstrel: Ballads -> Anthem-> Spam Bolster Courage with couple of Inspire Fellow, if not enough Coda/BC and repeat.

In the right hands a RK can do more than a Minstrel, but if they get interrupted or get out of rotation, it can end bad.
This might be a reason why Minstrel outshine RKs beacuse of their ability to burst AoE Heal what ever happens.

I also think Minstrel needs that fellowship heal component removed from BC in blue line and a couple of buffs to other skills, especially raise the spirit.

[Ethrildar]

Sadly a good RK in a 6man or larger is incomparable to a good mini, there's just nothing that can beat an aoe 10-20k heal every 1-1.5 seconds + a further 10-20k on the main target, then if that fails, coda heal, another bolster, then Triumphant Spirit which crits up to 35k, then Fellowships Heart when you know the brown stuff is about to hit the fan.

RK is good, and versus a few creeps, imo it's better at keeping itself alive, but it just doesn't have the aoe necessary to keep up a group larger than 4 alone, if the creeps are smart, they'll split focus between the RK, and the second squishiest in the group and then it's a matter of time before the RK runs out of bubbles and Fates stone, and one or both will die, and the group wipes. Now don't get me wrong when you get lucky and the creeps suck (xpicto) a RK healer can keep itself up IMMENSELY well, it's less bothered by the basic CC's, but it's a lot more bothered by Disarms and Silences both of which give it a 99% grey-bar, unlike mini that has 75% immunity to silence, and disarm does nothing except take away your healing-sword's legacies for 10 sec, big whoop. The same is true of defiler/WL, both can heal to 90% effectiveness through either of these CCs, this seems to be a "freep only" sorta thing, and it hurts RKs bad. This didn't used to be a problem because creep debuffs like disarms & silences were on reasonable CDs of about 40-60 seconds per debuff, now they're on 20 or so, which makes them so spammable, that combined with the nerf of Scribe a New Ending, a RK really can't keep itself from being disarmed/silenced for very long.

In general, a mini can just heal so so so much better than a RK purely though the aoe bolster, outside of that it's pretty close but sadly, we're not outside of that, and so long as bolster stays the way it is, the class (at least for healing a group rather than itself) will stay a thousand miles above RK. I don't say all of this lightly as I LOVE Rk heals, and back at 85 I was one of very few RK healers on Brandywine who really pushed the class to it's limits, it's sad to see how inferior it is now, the only times I've seen it do remarkably well is with a player who can play the class remarkably well, and even then if they played a mini half as well, they'd be a superior group healer.

I also find RK healing a 6man or more, solo healing this is, to be really boring, again through the lack of meaningful aoe or proper burst healing. EftA is just the single worst burst heal in the game, it crits for literally less than LMs beacon of hope crits, by a factor of about 50%, it has a ridiculous CD, the aoe splash heal is microscopic and it hits a tiny tiny area. I very rarely use this skill, it even has 2x the induction of Bolster Courage. Bearing in mine one BC is likely to heal for around 70k including the aoe (no crits), and one EftA is likely to heal for about 10k if you get lucky with the little aoe splash HOT on the end, and maybe a crit.

Don't even get me started on Defiler & WL. WL alone isn't too bad, it's about right imo but when teamed with other WLs and Defilers the class just becomes ridiculous and as we all know there is no stronger healer than a good defiler, having the ability to stack 5 versions of Fellowships Heart on yourself and your group on basically no cooldowns, and the good old 40k burst heal if you need it, alongside an awesome over-potent fear, and very very good sustained dps, very good debuffs.

All in all, healing on both sides is OP but to say RK is better than mini is sadly, very far from the truth. I wish they'd just put it back to how it was with RoR, it was great and it had good utility to make up for it's lack of up-front burst healing.

Long post is long. Many tears predicted from the likes of XPICTO

[Giliodor]

if your rk gets wrecked l2p it. You're just a typical freep QQing about creep nerfs and how freeps are UP. Instead of QQ in forums review your playstyle.
also copying outdated posts is pretty lame.

I'm not sure if you're even serious... I have said several times freeps are in groups stronger than creeps. And I never said my RK gets wrecked... which is quite surprising, considering it's level 97. You're the only one QQ'ing about RK's.

[XPICTO]

I'm not sure if you're even serious... I have said several times freeps are in groups stronger than creeps. And I never said my RK gets wrecked... which is quite surprising, considering it's level 97. You're the only one QQ'ing about RK's.

You are one of the few defending the theory about creep opness. I'm not sure if you are serious... freeps groups are stronger but weaker in solo? ###.

[Giliodor]

You are one of the few defending the theory about creep opness. I'm not sure if you are serious... freeps groups are stronger but weaker in solo? ###.

Please quote me on that? Especially since I just said the exact opposite... Rofl your stupidity knows no limits.

[XPICTO]

Please quote me on that? Especially since I just said the exact opposite... Rofl your stupidity knows no limits.

your brain have so much limits though. In every thread you say nerf creeps, but you say freeps are stronger? hypocrite much. If you cant get what i mean its because its beyound your brain limits, not my stupidity.

[Giliodor]

your brain have so much limits though. In every thread you say nerf creeps, but you say freeps are stronger? hypocrite much. If you cant get what i mean its because its beyound your brain limits, not my stupidity.

Individual class balance has nothing, literally zero, to do with group vs group balance. I have never said "nerf this, nerf that" without giving an explanation to do so, and I always give possible solutions. How you can possibly come up with this reply? Seriously, start reading what I actually post instead of making these stupid assumptions. The fact that spiders are ridiculously OP, and defiler heals are still too ezmode for any game doesn't change the fact that mini healing, Wrd/Fire RK DPS and guardian survival aren't as well.
Moreover, I even posted about 15 times in the "QQ wardens are OP" thread about wardens and their OPness.
Please, stop. You clearly don't have the slightest clue about what you're saying.

[LEGENDofALL]

1.from my point of view i think small group wise Rks are better and large groups id stick with minny

2. Defiler/WL vs Healing RK/Minny id take the RK/Minny everyday of the week and twice on sunday though the defiler/WL combo is still pretty damn good


Biggest problem overall is healing is OP in the moors period and not just from those classes and thats not including pots for creeps which is pretty OP in itself.

[Ethrildar]

1.from my point of view i think small group wise Rks are better and large groups id stick with minny

2. Defiler/WL vs Healing RK/Minny id take the RK/Minny everyday of the week and twice on sunday though the defiler/WL combo is still pretty damn good


Biggest problem overall is healing is OP in the moors period and not just from those classes and thats not including pots for creeps which is pretty OP in itself.

1) Yep.

2) It wouldn't be mini and RK, it'd be mini and blue cappy, that would certainly make you think twice. RK is not the freepside equivalent to WL, and whilst the classes aren't mirrored it doesn't take much to work out what class roughly equates to what opposite-side class. Out of Defiler + WL or Mini + Cappy, the Defiler + WL would win every time, purely because a blue cappy has nothing to stop the mini being hard-focused, and a yellow cappy is 100% reliant on CDs that once up, are just that, gone. WL can also heal itself whilst if the cappy is focused (albeit that'd be a dumb idea to focus the cappy first) it can barely heal itself at all. I wouldn't say there was THAT much in it, but still imo a Def + WL duo is way, way harder to take down than a Cappy + Mini duo. 1-2 CCs on the mini and any 2 competent creep DPS classes can take it down to 25% health. Can't say the same about any decently-built creep healer at 83-97k morale.

[LEGENDofALL]

1) Yep.

2) It wouldn't be mini and RK, it'd be mini and blue cappy, that would certainly make you think twice. RK is not the freepside equivalent to WL, and whilst the classes aren't mirrored it doesn't take much to work out what class roughly equates to what opposite-side class. Out of Defiler + WL or Mini + Cappy, the Defiler + WL would win every time, purely because a blue cappy has nothing to stop the mini being hard-focused, and a yellow cappy is 100% reliant on CDs that once up, are just that, gone. WL can also heal itself whilst if the cappy is focused (albeit that'd be a dumb idea to focus the cappy first) it can barely heal itself at all. I wouldn't say there was THAT much in it, but still imo a Def + WL duo is way, way harder to take down than a Cappy + Mini duo. 1-2 CCs on the mini and any 2 competent creep DPS classes can take it down to 25% health. Can't say the same about any decently-built creep healer at 83-97k morale.

1. We can agree to disagree and as I have stated I'd take minny/rk over defiler/WL, anyone who actually takes the time to learn the rk class will see its full potential.

2. I wasnt talking about classes mirroring each other either i was stating who I'd take.


Though overall they're both great to have healing for either side its just how I see it.

[Arathaert]

1) Yep.

2) It wouldn't be mini and RK, it'd be mini and blue cappy, that would certainly make you think twice. RK is not the freepside equivalent to WL, and whilst the classes aren't mirrored it doesn't take much to work out what class roughly equates to what opposite-side class. Out of Defiler + WL or Mini + Cappy, the Defiler + WL would win every time, purely because a blue cappy has nothing to stop the mini being hard-focused, and a yellow cappy is 100% reliant on CDs that once up, are just that, gone. WL can also heal itself whilst if the cappy is focused (albeit that'd be a dumb idea to focus the cappy first) it can barely heal itself at all. I wouldn't say there was THAT much in it, but still imo a Def + WL duo is way, way harder to take down than a Cappy + Mini duo. 1-2 CCs on the mini and any 2 competent creep DPS classes can take it down to 25% health. Can't say the same about any decently-built creep healer at 83-97k morale.

Call me a noob (and moors-wise it'd still prolly be true despite my 2 years out there), but how exactly do Defilers and WLs mesh well? There's an overabundance of defilers on our server, compared to good WLs, so I rolled one and liking it so far. I'm assuming it has to do with keeping the traited wl bubble on the defiler? Other than that... *shrug* my ignorance knows no bounds.

(fyi I'm not arguing your point, I'd just like more details because learning :P)

[Ethrildar]

Call me a noob (and moors-wise it'd still prolly be true despite my 2 years out there), but how exactly do Defilers and WLs mesh well? There's an overabundance of defilers on our server, compared to good WLs, so I rolled one and liking it so far. I'm assuming it has to do with keeping the traited wl bubble on the defiler? Other than that... *shrug* my ignorance knows no bounds.

(fyi I'm not arguing your point, I'd just like more details because learning :P)

It's more a question of they just work well together, unlike cappy + freep healer (rk/mini), the WL can effectively heal itself, and it provides great burst healing and good emergency skills to compensate for the defilers lack of burst healing, since defiler is all hot based for the most part. The two work well together, also, because they can both heal properly, it's like having two healers. Whereas having a cappy and a mini/rk is having 1.5 healers, the cappy compensates by buffing the main healer by a portion, but is nowhere comparable to another mini/rk/defiler/wl. That, and a matter of having a 5 target immediate rez at 75% morale on a 2min CD, cause yknow, that's still kinda ridiculous.

[Giliodor]

It's more a question of they just work well together, unlike cappy + freep healer (rk/mini), the WL can effectively heal itself, and it provides great burst healing and good emergency skills to compensate for the defilers lack of burst healing, since defiler is all hot based for the most part. The two work well together, also, because they can both heal properly, it's like having two healers. Whereas having a cappy and a mini/rk is having 1.5 healers, the cappy compensates by buffing the main healer by a portion, but is nowhere comparable to another mini/rk/defiler/wl. That, and a matter of having a 5 target immediate rez at 75% morale on a 2min CD, cause yknow, that's still kinda ridiculous.

After playing my captain for 2 weeks (mostly in blue), I respectfully disagree. Yes, captain heals are weaker, but they provide a constant flow of HoT's, and aren't too vulnerable to CC.

[Constrictions]

RK healers have more utility and constant flow of heals to deal with focus fire than any other freep healer. This was even the case when everyone thought RK's were the worst healers (U13?).

It's a matter of timing bubbles and keeping HoTs maxed, knowing how and when to kite and when to use burst(high or moderate) heals. As well as always using your condition cure when applicable.
Since U14 it is a hell of a lot easier to troll everyone with RK healing in every possible regard.

[Constrictions]

Individual class balance has nothing, literally zero, to do with group vs group balance.

This is probably the most ridiculous opinion I keep seeing you assert in the forums.

This is like saying that individual cells have absolutely nothing to do with the functioning of an organ.
Well, actually, organs are made up of tissues which are made up of lots of individuals cells.

If individual cells don't work properly, the tissues that make up an organ won't work properly. If the tissues that make up an organ don't work properly, then the organ doesn't work properly.

No, this is not a slippery slope fallacy, it's actual biology.

You can't attempt to cure an organ or it's tissues to proper function without changing or considering the effects of the specific cells. They are the smallest independantly functioning unit by which the entire organism is built from.

The relationship between individual class balance and group vs group and raid vs raid balance, and the balance of general game systems is somewhat different, but not very dissimilar in reciprocity.

[Leopoldio]

You can't just simply choose what is the best rk or mini.

Good rk -> can outheal average/bad mini
Good mini -> can outheal average/bad rk

Good mini & good rk will both do great. Perfect, when you have both in group.

It also REALLY depends on the situation you are facing. if there are 2+ spiders -> mini usually will do worse then rk, since stuns/mezzes (brand + pot + skill usually go on cd quite fast), but rk hots are still work, when you are being mezzed. Same with many wargs. Rk can do scribe spark and clear most fear/silence/disarm while pots are on cd. If there is not that many CC but a lots of burst dmg -> mini will do better, since RK is mostly HoTs.

[Ethrildar]

You can't just simply choose what is the best rk or mini.

Good rk -> can outheal average/bad mini
Good mini -> can outheal average/bad rk

Good mini & good rk will both do great. Perfect, when you have both in group.

It also REALLY depends on the situation you are facing. if there are 2+ spiders -> mini usually will do worse then rk, since stuns/mezzes (brand + pot + skill usually go on cd quite fast), but rk hots are still work, when you are being mezzed. Same with many wargs. Rk can do scribe spark and clear most fear/silence/disarm while pots are on cd. If there is not that many CC but a lots of burst dmg -> mini will do better, since RK is mostly HoTs.

Agreed with exception of Wargs. RK is destroyed by Wargs on a level only pre-HD minstrels know. That combo of having 2 short CD interrupts, and 5 silences per minute that a mini is immune to 75% of, RK isn't. Wargs alone not such a problem since Scribe a New Ending cures plenty of silences if the wargs are bad and don't apply debuffs in the right order, but vs a few competent wargs mini has the outright advantage purely through silence immunity with 75% uptime.

[Giliodor]

This is probably the most ridiculous opinion I keep seeing you assert in the forums.

This is like saying that individual cells have absolutely nothing to do with the functioning of an organ.
Well, actually, organs are made up of tissues which are made up of lots of individuals cells.

If individual cells don't work properly, the tissues that make up an organ won't work properly. If the tissues that make up an organ don't work properly, then the organ doesn't work properly.

No, this is not a slippery slope fallacy, it's actual biology.

You can't attempt to cure an organ or it's tissues to proper function without changing or considering the effects of the specific cells. They are the smallest independantly functioning unit by which the entire organism is built from.

The relationship between individual class balance and group vs group and raid vs raid balance, and the balance of general game systems is somewhat different, but not very dissimilar in reciprocity.

This is just... What can I say. It's got nothing to do with biology. Look at it like this: the fact that 1 freep can't kill a defiler, doesn't mean defilers are OP in group vs group. In fact, they're pretty bad if you know how to counter them. If a guardian is OP as hell in 1v1, that doesn't mean it's the same in group vs group. In fact, guardians aren't that good in group vs group.
Something that makes a class OP in a 1v1 scenario doesn't have to be OP in groups. /lol at writing an entire essay about biology.

[Leopoldio]

Agreed with exception of Wargs. RK is destroyed by Wargs on a level only pre-HD minstrels know. That combo of having 2 short CD interrupts, and 5 silences per minute that a mini is immune to 75% of, RK isn't. Wargs alone not such a problem since Scribe a New Ending cures plenty of silences if the wargs are bad and don't apply debuffs in the right order, but vs a few competent wargs mini has the outright advantage purely through silence immunity with 75% uptime.

Um, not sure what 75% immunity on mini you are talking about ?
My RK build isnt destroyed by one simple reason - i have traited rk lightening stone in healing build. So it solves all problems with wargs. And recently I've mentioned a lot of RKs slot it as well. That gives quite nice timespans to use your heals, while everyone is slowed/stunned.

[Hayden102]

Thankyou all for the info, decided to just roll both

[Constrictions]

This is just... What can I say. It's got nothing to do with biology. Look at it like this: the fact that 1 freep can't kill a defiler, doesn't mean defilers are OP in group vs group. In fact, they're pretty bad if you know how to counter them. If a guardian is OP as hell in 1v1, that doesn't mean it's the same in group vs group. In fact, guardians aren't that good in group vs group.
Something that makes a class OP in a 1v1 scenario doesn't have to be OP in groups. /lol at writing an entire essay about biology.

Good group balance requires that each class within that group has adequate balance individually.
That balance may be -100% mitigations and +100,000% damage. And it may be the opposite.

But a group filled with classes that have poor individual balancing will undoubtedly reflect on the balancing of the overall group performance.

Ignore my analogy if you want, but my point still stands.

Agreed with exception of Wargs. RK is destroyed by Wargs on a level only pre-HD minstrels know. That combo of having 2 short CD interrupts, and 5 silences per minute that a mini is immune to 75% of, RK isn't. Wargs alone not such a problem since Scribe a New Ending cures plenty of silences if the wargs are bad and don't apply debuffs in the right order, but vs a few competent wargs mini has the outright advantage purely through silence immunity with 75% uptime.

Remember too that all light armoured classes have innately high resistance ratings from their main stats. The RK can use a cure potion on themselves in addition to scribe a new ending. But the other thing too, is that nobody has ever been responsible for curing all of their own conditions. In a group situation it is expected that you are with another class who can help you do that (All other classes can also purchase the pots which you can use on allies).