Freep healer RK VS Mini

[Giliodor]

Good group balance requires that each class within that group has adequate balance individually.

I give up... Did you even read my post?

[LEGENDofALL]

Good group balance requires that each class within that group has adequate balance individually.
That balance may be -100% mitigations and +100,000% damage. And it may be the opposite.

But a group filled with classes that have poor individual balancing will undoubtedly reflect on the balancing of the overall group performance.

Ignore my analogy if you want, but my point still stands.



Remember too that all light armoured classes have innately high resistance ratings from their main stats. The RK can use a cure potion on themselves in addition to scribe a new ending. But the other thing too, is that nobody has ever been responsible for curing all of their own conditions. In a group situation it is expected that you are with another class who can help you do that (All other classes can also purchase the pots which you can use on allies).

very true !!!!!!!

[Constrictions]

I give up... Did you even read my post?

Yes. If you understood the line where I mentioned the 100,000% damage and -100% mitigations thing, it might imply that I understood your post but actually account for it in my perspective of ettenmoors class balancing.

[LEGENDofALL]

Yes. If you understood the line where I mentioned the 100,000% damage and -100% mitigations thing, it might imply that I understood your post but actually account for it in my perspective of ettenmoors class balancing.

I understood your post .

[Thaelon]

Good group balance requires that each class within that group has adequate balance individually.But a group filled with classes that have poor individual balancing will undoubtedly reflect on the balancing of the overall group performance.

wrong, for example, lets say a class (mini before trait trees) is overall based on healing so is poorly balanced for a 1v1 situation because of lack of dps, they are amazing in groups but lack severely in 1v1 situations. Rk can be seen as the same in terms of fire traits, lack of survivability put them in a terrible spot for 1v1s. Both these classes(depending on traits) excelled at group combat yet failed miserably at 1v1 combat. You can have perfect group v group balance w/o needing to achieve perfect 1v1 balance first, in fact achieving perfect 1v1 balance would ruin group v group because all classes would be evenish in terms of the amount of effectiveness they bring to the table(like if combat was balanced for 1v1s, 1 healer could die to 1 dps which would completely destroy group v group balance).

[Ethrildar]

wrong, for example, lets say a class (mini before trait trees) is overall based on healing so is poorly balanced for a 1v1 situation because of lack of dps, they are amazing in groups but lack severely in 1v1 situations. Rk can be seen as the same in terms of fire traits, lack of survivability put them in a terrible spot for 1v1s. Both these classes(depending on traits) excelled at group combat yet failed miserably at 1v1 combat. You can have perfect group v group balance w/o needing to achieve perfect 1v1 balance first, in fact achieving perfect 1v1 balance would ruin group v group because all classes would be evenish in terms of the amount of effectiveness they bring to the table(like if combat was balanced for 1v1s, 1 healer could die to 1 dps which would completely destroy group v group balance).

The point - that's gone way over your head - was not that a class has to be balanced 1v1. It's that a class has to be balanced INDIVIDUALLY for a certain role.

[Monkeylad]

Call me a noob (and moors-wise it'd still prolly be true despite my 2 years out there), but how exactly do Defilers and WLs mesh well? There's an overabundance of defilers on our server, compared to good WLs, so I rolled one and liking it so far. I'm assuming it has to do with keeping the traited wl bubble on the defiler? Other than that... *shrug* my ignorance knows no bounds.

(fyi I'm not arguing your point, I'd just like more details because learning :P)

The heals, the aura, the bubble. And the defiler can heal quite well too. Which is why the freeps QQ on our server Luki, because most nights they have 20+ with 3 defilers and 3 warleaders or more while we usually can only muster 10

But the side with the warleader defiler combos will win more often I believe. Even if they're not getting many kills, they're not giving any away either if they know what they're doing. Cappy can only do so much in blue, dipping into yellow for in harms way can work, but you sacrifice a lot of your utility imo. Runekeepers and minstrels seem to be much more squishy compared to defilers and warleaders when they're focused and will go down a lot quicker with the 4 vts on them, and the other healers being babysat by spiders. Maybe it's not too op when there's an equal makeup, but more often than not that's never the case

But as far as healers go, if both know what they're doing and how to play, I'd still take the mini over an rk for group. Besides, the rks are much more useful traited in fire

[Thaelon]

The point - that's gone way over your head - was not that a class has to be balanced 1v1. It's that a class has to be balanced INDIVIDUALLY for a certain role.

wow amazing job dude, you really figured out this thread fast ey? If only i realised that was what he was talking about, i might have replied to him telling him how and why he was wrong. If only...

[Giliodor]

Truly, if you face 6 healers, you're lucky...

[Ethrildar]

Truly, if you face 6 healers, you're lucky...

Seconding this.

On Brandyzerg, creeps will have 1 def, 1 wl, and 1 spider for every 1 member in your group. This is no exaggeration.

[Constrictions]

You can have perfect group v group balance w/o needing to achieve perfect 1v1 balance first,

I agree, but I think obviously for many reasons this is not ideal. I think working it like this would, and has been a quick fix in the past. However there are functional limits in how Turbine is to restrict the ability to step out of the mould (Raid vs Raid). They have failed to account for this before and the ettenmoors has suffered as a result.

in fact achieving perfect 1v1 balance would ruin group v group because all classes would be evenish in terms of the amount of effectiveness they bring to the table(like if combat was balanced for 1v1s, 1 healer could die to 1 dps which would completely destroy group v group balance).

I don't think that has to be the case.
Like you are saying, a class can be balanced individually for a role, but that balance is not necessarily proportional to how another class is balanced for their role. In that sense two classes which are individually balanced may not be balanced if placed in a 1v1 encounter, but would both do well in group and raid situations.

-

Your example of 1 healer being killed by 1 dps and/or vice versa does not necessarily hold merit. 1 healer may not be able to die to 1 DPS, but ideally the DPS should be able to sustain themselves enough that the healer shouldn't be able to kill the DPS while they are committed to healing themselves.
Ideally, in order for the healer to win the fight, they would have to trade-off their healing on themselves to out-damage their opponents sustain, but leave themselves vulnerable to death.
The fight would then rely on the healers ability to actively manage their own sustain and damage on their opponent, while the DPS has to time his damage to exploit the vulnerability of the healer.
In group situations, there is no issue because presumably the healer is healing the entire time and not required to do any DPS.

-

In this sense, a class can be individually balanced for its role in a way that is proportional to how all other classes are individually balanced for their roles.
In such a case you would have good 1v1 balance (which would include my solution in the above example) and good group/raid balance, because in every possible situation (except in cases of one side extremely outnumbering the other) there are then options for counter-play and exploitation of weaknesses.
It would also encourage group and raid leaders to balance their group/raid with more than just the most useful classes, instead of the current situation where you have 1/3 of creep raids as BA's and weavers, and the other 1/3 as defilers, with the remaining third as whatever else is left.

Note: I think part of the problem is how each class has become homogenised into having each of their potential roles made 'pure' or distinct from each other via trait trees. If all the roles are hybridised with traits giving specific bonuses then the system would be a hell of a lot closer to that ideal I described.
In fact, that's almost literally how the trait system worked before trait tree's (at least, around moria).

You might argue that this type of approach is impossible, but its similar to what guild wars 2 did and has maintained.
Whether it is possible to do in this game is another argument, but it hasn't been far off in the past.

[Monkeylad]

Seconding this.

On Brandyzerg, creeps will have 1 def, 1 wl, and 1 spider for every 1 member in your group. This is no exaggeration.

Yes, I know. I played freep and creep there and got bored.

[Giliodor]

Yes, I know. I played freep and creep there and got bored.

How's Gladden in terms of action, and what time of the day? Send in pm, if you like.

[Monkeylad]

How's Gladden in terms of action, and what time of the day? Send in pm, if you like.

Sent a message

[infinitewhimsy]

Um, not sure what 75% immunity on mini you are talking about ?
My RK build isnt destroyed by one simple reason - i have traited rk lightening stone in healing build. So it solves all problems with wargs. And recently I've mentioned a lot of RKs slot it as well. That gives quite nice timespans to use your heals, while everyone is slowed/stunned.

Cry of the Chorus on Minstrel has a 30s CD and provides 20s of Silence Immunity. Provided it works properly, a really great Warg can use Dire Howl at the same time they see the CotC animation, if both activate at once Mins get Silenced even with the Silence Immunity on. Or at least they used to. It's also worth noting that Minnies have no Induction Setback half of the time, with their Bubble (if it breaks or not).

Correct me if I'm wrong (I've only eyeballed RK since RoR) but All Fates Entwined is essentially gone for RK, leaving them without any real kind of interrupt prevention? I am assuming Our Fates Entwined doesn't do this this. I'd say that, coupled with their susceptibility to Silence/Disarm (that Mins lacks), leaves them far and away the inferior PvP healers on Freep compared against the absurd and mindless BC spam Minstrels are capable of-- particularly with consideration to the low cds of TS and FH and the fact Coda can still be used to double Bolster after AotTA.

[Ethrildar]

Cry of the Chorus on Minstrel has a 30s CD and provides 20s of Silence Immunity. Provided it works properly, a really great Warg can use Dire Howl at the same time they see the CotC animation, if both activate at once Mins get Silenced even with the Silence Immunity on. Or at least they used to. It's also worth noting that Minnies have no Induction Setback half of the time, with their Bubble (if it breaks or not).

Correct me if I'm wrong (I've only eyeballed RK since RoR) but All Fates Entwined is essentially gone for RK, leaving them without any real kind of interrupt prevention? I am assuming Our Fates Entwined doesn't do this this. I'd say that, coupled with their susceptibility to Silence/Disarm (that Mins lacks), leaves them far and away the inferior PvP healers on Freep compared against the absurd and mindless BC spam Minstrels are capable of-- particularly with consideration to the low cds of TS and FH and the fact Coda can still be used to double Bolster after AotTA.

Basically this, yeah.

Our Fates Entwined is now a rune-stone you place on the ground that absorbs 60% of all incoming damage to the fellowship for 20 seconds on a somewhat lengthy CD. RK has no induction setback immunity and as you mention, and as I mentioned above, one of the biggest factors in which healer is better is the fact that Minstrel is not affected that badly by silence/disarm and RK is, tremendously.

[infinitewhimsy]

It's sad to consider, considering how much more internally functional Mins and RK used to be. I think they were both in a pretty reasonable state (strictly as far as healers go, compared to Defiler/WL) in their group healing role before RoR. And they were definitely more interesting then, too.

[Constrictions]

Silence/disarm isn't a problem provided that the RK knows how to use scribe a new ending, and their teammates know how to do more than alt-tab 1-6.

Also remember that the runekeeper is still healing while under the effects of silence/disarm. Silence/disarm only affects the ability to make the heals, which are pre-emptive in nature anyway.
As far as interrupts, the only induction practically interrupt-able is epic of the ages. You can always just use the RK consumables to ensure it goes off, and you also get a proc bonus which makes all inductions -40%.

HoT heals are more applicable and a better form of sustenance. In most cases your RK healer is not going to be mauled with silence after silence and disarm after disarm in a fashion that SANE, and maybe plus a pot cannot handle.
SANE itself easily deals with all reaver effects twice over, including co-ordinated and masked disarms. You'd need a reaver and a warg, possibly with a weaver too, all working together to dedicate and time CC and debuffs to stop the RK from healing altogether, albeit efficiently.
Assume its in a group situation, this would only actually work provided your group is not conscious of the state of the healer and the RK themselves is without any form of support from other classes. One hunter, or one captain with a condition cure for example would just totally negate those effects.

Otherwise, if you expect a string of uncurable disarms/silences that's also one of the few times when you should be using your group bubble.

[Ethrildar]

Silence/disarm isn't a problem provided that the RK knows how to use scribe a new ending, and their teammates know how to do more than alt-tab 1-6.

Also remember that the runekeeper is still healing while under the effects of silence/disarm. Silence/disarm only affects the ability to make the heals, which are pre-emptive in nature anyway.
As far as interrupts, the only induction practically interrupt-able is epic of the ages. You can always just use the RK consumables to ensure it goes off, and you also get a proc bonus which makes all inductions -40%.

HoT heals are more applicable and a better form of sustenance. In most cases your RK healer is not going to be mauled with silence after silence and disarm after disarm in a fashion that SANE, and maybe plus a pot cannot handle.
SANE itself easily deals with all reaver effects twice over, including co-ordinated and masked disarms. You'd need a reaver and a warg, possibly with a weaver too, all working together to dedicate and time CC and debuffs to stop the RK from healing altogether, albeit efficiently.
Assume its in a group situation, this would only actually work provided your group is not conscious of the state of the healer and the RK themselves is without any form of support from other classes. One hunter, or one captain with a condition cure for example would just totally negate those effects.

Otherwise, if you expect a string of uncurable disarms/silences that's also one of the few times when you should be using your group bubble.

I love your posts man but you're pretty wrong here, I'll list why. At least from my experience, admittedly on a server where a balanced group v group quite literally doesn't ever happen.

A Rune-keeper is affected by Silence/Disarm even if only a little, when Scribe is up. Scribe no longer has 100% uptime, it's as slow, clunky skill, it reduces valuable attunement, has a nice 2 second delay either side of it, too. Not to mention the fact that a good Warg will be using his silences (or disarms, and reaver disarms) to interrupt inductions, this works and even if the silence/disarm is instantly cured, the induction the RK is in, will be interrupted. This also assumes it's simply one singular creep on the RK, more than 1 creep's debuffs and that's it, SANE is overwhelmed and you're never going to be able to cure all those debuffs. Only takes one spider to massively overwhelm SANE, and when is there ever not a spider, or a defiler, or a warg, or a reaver? Each one of whom can put up between 3 and 398 debuffs on their enemy? Doesn't matter how potent they are, provided each debuff uses up a cure. With creep heals and DPS as-is, it's also very inefficient to have another freep class trait into an unnecessary line just for cures on the RK when a mini doesn't need this special treatment. Part of the unbalance between the two healers.

RK HOTs still tick whilst stunned, agreed, but these hots are for the most part pretty minimal, even with T3 WoH, and 2-3 MV HOTS up you're really not looking at a ton of healing whilst stunned.

The only induction practically interruptable? This is where you're most wrong, it doesn't matter what induction you interrupt, in fact interrupting EFTA is the worst use of your interrupt, interrupting any MV or WoH will put either one of the skills on CD, and totally decimate the RKs rotation, given how pathetically small EFTA heal is (like 2/3 of the initial hit a bolster does, with a massive CD, huge-### inducton and a pathetic splash heal/hot). Frankly I rarely use EFTA because if I manage to get it off, I've screwed my rotation and will have to wait the annoying delay before I can use my next MV/WoH rotation, which is far more effective in the time-frame unless EFTA crits, which statistically is unlikely compared to it's chance to non-crit.

The simple fact that one warg can interrupt inductions on a RK literally endlessly (because of the 4 second interrupt CD on MV/WoH/EFTA) and the fact they can also spam silences and DEBILITATING attack duration debuffs whilst maintaining huge DPS, is the biggest problem RK has. Mini is not susceptible to this, an interrupt does not put Bolster on CD, and Bolster is a thousand times better than anything the RK has.

Basically RK is almost as good as a mini, if it has a group supporting it rather than purely doing their own class role (DPS, CC, w/e), whereas a minstrel is 99% self sufficient, and whilst it can be buffed by support of other classes, it's not necessary to function, and with or without all this support, the mini still comes out way on top purely for the below few reasons:

- Silences/Disarms are not sustainably curable if there's more than 1 creep throwing up debuffs on the RK, these debuffs do little/nothing to the Mini.
- Interrupts utterly destroy the healing ability of a RK, simply putting one warg will really screw a RK once AoS ends. It has some means to temporarily stop this being such and issue (skills like AoS) but a Mini doesn't need these skills.
- Mini can use 1 induction and aoe heal the entire group for 8-19k per group member & a further 8-19k on the initial target. RK simply has nothing even remotely comparable to this heal.

That, and when you say use the RK consumables, look at the CDs on them, you'd need one every couple of seconds to deal with just 1-2 creeps harrassing you, let alone 10+. Half the CDs on them are 3minutes odd.

I love the RK but what HD did to it's ability to main-heal is sad, EFTA needs a massive buff (1 sec induction, huge aoe like bolster, 3 sec CD, no huge delay after use), and RK needs SANE to cure a debuff every 1 second and have 100% uptime, again with no silly skill delay, that'd be a small change or two that'd go a hugely long way to making the class more playable versus creeps that have some semblance of intelligence.

[Constrictions]

There's a couple of specific things I could counter, although you basically just spelt out to me why minstrels need a nerf.

It used to be that classes such as captains and LMs would spend a large portion of their time supporting their healer and making up for their lack of self sufficiency at performing their role.

If that is no longer necessary then there's a huge problem with the minstrel in terms of it making too much of a positive effect in group situations.


When both the minstrel and runekeeper required another class to makeup for their supposed weaknesses, they complimented each other perfectly. Without those types of weaknesses there's no incentive for strategic play, except hope that your Burst DPS is faster than their healers reaction time.

[Thaelon]

There's a couple of specific things I could counter, although you basically just spelt out to me why minstrels need a nerf.

It used to be that classes such as captains and LMs would spend a large portion of their time supporting their healer and making up for their lack of self sufficiency at performing their role.

If that is no longer necessary then there's a huge problem with the minstrel in terms of it making too much of a positive effect in group situations.


When both the minstrel and runekeeper required another class to makeup for their supposed weaknesses, they complimented each other perfectly. Without those types of weaknesses there's no incentive for strategic play, except hope that your Burst DPS is faster than their healers reaction time.

I felt the same way about the counter thing but dont listen to his trash lol, heal rk>>>>>>heal mini. Rks have far more self sustainability than minis, far better heals(for pvp) and far more -inc damage/damage absorbtion bubbles, the only reason people think like equinoxx does is because heal rk has a higher skill cap than heal mini however if you are good/great you will laugh at people who cry about heal rks and wonder how they can be so bad...

[Giliodor]

I felt the same way about the counter thing but dont listen to his trash lol, heal rk>>>>>>heal mini. Rks have far more self sustainability than minis, far better heals(for pvp) and far more -inc damage/damage absorbtion bubbles, the only reason people think like equinoxx does is because heal rk has a higher skill cap than heal mini however if you are good/great you will laugh at people who cry about heal rks and wonder how they can be so bad...

Good/great mini > Good/great RK > Most mini's... doesn't mean RK's are better than mini's, lol.

[Ethrildar]

There's a couple of specific things I could counter, although you basically just spelt out to me why minstrels need a nerf.

It used to be that classes such as captains and LMs would spend a large portion of their time supporting their healer and making up for their lack of self sufficiency at performing their role.

If that is no longer necessary then there's a huge problem with the minstrel in terms of it making too much of a positive effect in group situations.


When both the minstrel and runekeeper required another class to makeup for their supposed weaknesses, they complimented each other perfectly. Without those types of weaknesses there's no incentive for strategic play, except hope that your Burst DPS is faster than their healers reaction time.

Spot on, exactly. I 100% agree... WHEN creep DPS and heals also get a nerf along the same lines.

I felt the same way about the counter thing but dont listen to his trash lol, heal rk>>>>>>heal mini. Rks have far more self sustainability than minis, far better heals(for pvp) and far more -inc damage/damage absorbtion bubbles, the only reason people think like equinoxx does is because heal rk has a higher skill cap than heal mini however if you are good/great you will laugh at people who cry about heal rks and wonder how they can be so bad...

I agree that RK has a much higher skillcap, far far higher, however you're totally wrong about one major thing, RK having better heals for pvp.

In PVP, aoe healing is winning, which is why bolster is so amazing, versus a zerg, 50% or more are not following raid assist, which is where RK falls massively short of the mark, and minstrel doesn't, because minstrels can use one skill and cover both their ST and their AOE healing at the same time, that's what makes them so superior, it's that one skill. RKs are indeed better at keeping themselves alive, for sure, I love kiting 15 bads on my RK endlessly, however if 7 of those bads decide to target a hunter in my group and the other 7 bads decide to target some other squishy in my group, I can either just spam bolster on mini, which has no CD, very little animation, a small induction mid-combat, and heals between 50 and 75% of a freeps morale pool in just 1 heal, for the whole group. OR I can pop CDs on RK, use fates stone to absorb the damage, keep them up for just that bit longer, but not indefinitely, bubbles have CDs, more -inc dmg modifiers (albeit all tiny tiny durations and only 10%, even if they do stack for a couple of seconds).

When it comes down to a healer not just keeping itself alive versus bad creeps, RK is incomparable to minstrel, because RK has no spammable aoe.

In PVE, RK is massively boosted because aoe healing becomes far less necessary with the addition of a half competent tanking cappy/ward/guard/champ/beorning.

[Thaelon]

Good/great mini > Good/great RK > Most mini's... doesn't mean RK's are better than mini's, lol.

The correct answer would be Good/Great rk>Good/Great Mini>everyone else but A for effort

I agree that RK has a much higher skillcap, far far higher, however you're totally wrong about one major thing, RK having better heals for pvp.

In PVP, aoe healing is winning, which is why bolster is so amazing, versus a zerg, 50% or more are not following raid assist, which is where RK falls massively short of the mark, and minstrel doesn't, because minstrels can use one skill and cover both their ST and their AOE healing at the same time, that's what makes them so superior, it's that one skill. RKs are indeed better at keeping themselves alive, for sure, I love kiting 15 bads on my RK endlessly, however if 7 of those bads decide to target a hunter in my group and the other 7 bads decide to target some other squishy in my group, I can either just spam bolster on mini, which has no CD, very little animation, a small induction mid-combat, and heals between 50 and 75% of a freeps morale pool in just 1 heal, for the whole group. OR I can pop CDs on RK, use fates stone to absorb the damage, keep them up for just that bit longer, but not indefinitely, bubbles have CDs, more -inc dmg modifiers (albeit all tiny tiny durations and only 10%, even if they do stack for a couple of seconds).

When it comes down to a healer not just keeping itself alive versus bad creeps, RK is incomparable to minstrel, because RK has no spammable aoe.

In PVE, RK is massively boosted because aoe healing becomes far less necessary with the addition of a half competent tanking cappy/ward/guard/champ/beorning.

You have it the wrong way around, in PVE mini wins because aoe healing is winning and in pvp hots are far superiour because of cc. In pvp(granted i can see how your opinion of pvp is slanted because you play on BW which has a terrible general player base skill lvl) you will be on the receiving end of a TON of cc(whether that cc be disarm, silence, fear, stun, daze etc.) so as a mini the best you can do to keep someone up through cc is hope the creeps dont do enough damage to their target while you are ccd, thats it. An rk can prehot themselves, the creep target and the creep off target so that even if the rk is ccd the creep focus target will always have a ton of incoming heals. Couple that with the immense removal, -inc damage, bubbles and +inc healing buffs rks have they far outmatch anything minis have. With that said, minis are better healers when fighting terrible creeps because the terrible creeps wont cc as well, interrupt as well or generally harass the mini at all and will allow the mini to freecast bcs for as long as they want which is why people think mini is better, sadly :/

[Giliodor]

The correct answer would be Good/Great rk>Good/Great Mini>everyone else but A for effort


You have it the wrong way around, in PVE mini wins because aoe healing is winning and in pvp hots are far superiour because of cc. In pvp(granted i can see how your opinion of pvp is slanted because you play on BW which has a terrible general player base skill lvl) you will be on the receiving end of a TON of cc(whether that cc be disarm, silence, fear, stun, daze etc.) so as a mini the best you can do to keep someone up through cc is hope the creeps dont do enough damage to their target while you are ccd, thats it. An rk can prehot themselves, the creep target and the creep off target so that even if the rk is ccd the creep focus target will always have a ton of incoming heals. Couple that with the immense removal, -inc damage, bubbles and +inc healing buffs rks have they far outmatch anything minis have. With that said, minis are better healers when fighting terrible creeps because the terrible creeps wont cc as well, interrupt as well or generally harass the mini at all and will allow the mini to freecast bcs for as long as they want which is why people think mini is better, sadly :/

Theoretically this is correct. But I often find that HoT's aren't enough to keep me up through the amount of stuns, dazes and disarms. I think you need more of an emergency heal in such a scenario: like Coda + double BC, TS.
Big advantage RK's have is the OFE Runestone. It's incredibly OP. But they still lack AoE heals (not counting RS...). Maybe the Rune Sign of Winter should be applied to the entire fellowship or something.