Freep healer RK VS Mini

[RGilthanas]

Let's just say they both are too hard to kill and need a major nerf.

Defilers need FAR more of a nerf. Not just to their heals, but also to their survivability.

Honestly, GET RID OF MY MINNIE'S DPS AND GIVE ME THE SURVIVABILITY OF A DEFILER!

[LegendOfKamikazee]

Let's just say they both are too hard to kill and need a major nerf.

Most accurate statement so far on this thread

[Giliodor]

Defilers need FAR more of a nerf. Not just to their heals, but also to their survivability.

Honestly, GET RID OF MY MINNIE'S DPS AND GIVE ME THE SURVIVABILITY OF A DEFILER!

To be honest... Minstrel heals > defiler heals.

[sm91]

Defilers need FAR more of a nerf. Not just to their heals, but also to their survivability.

Honestly, GET RID OF MY MINNIE'S DPS AND GIVE ME THE SURVIVABILITY OF A DEFILER!

Take off your freep goggles then. Defiler heals is nothing compared to mini, but they get all hate for some reason.

[RGilthanas]

Take off your freep goggles then. Defiler heals is nothing compared to mini, but they get all hate for some reason.

For some reason? I know why. My original statement still stands.


If you don't know why, then go find out before adding your 2 cents.

[sm91]

For some reason? I know why. My original statement still stands.


If you don't know why, then go find out before adding your 2 cents.

Only thing is that they can dps while healing, but it's op only in a solo situation. Aside that it's nothing compared to all a mini and rk can do, of course always with some blue cappy and some LM spamming water lore to support them to make it even worse. Not to mention the fact that creepside doesn't really have anything comparable to a red cappy to burst a healer down fast.

[RGilthanas]

Only thing is that they can dps while healing, but it's op only in a solo situation. Aside that it's nothing compared to all a mini and rk can do, of course always with some blue cappy and some LM spamming water lore to support them to make it even worse. Not to mention the fact that creepside doesn't really have anything comparable to a red cappy to burst a healer down fast.

Fair enough, absolutely correct, freepside has more utility and choices - not only skill-wise, but also choices of classes.

However. Defilers are extremely tanklike, too much so in my opinion. The fact that they can dps while heal traited is wrong (also goes for any class on both sides. Really should only do one specialization.)

The fact that a minnie can dps OR heal is irrelevant because minnies have to do one or the other to get the full benefit, where defilers can do both and tank at the same time. The tank/survivability is what I'm focusing on - I want my minnie to be able to survive as well as a defiler.

[Giliodor]

Fair enough, absolutely correct, freepside has more utility and choices - not only skill-wise, but also choices of classes.

However. Defilers are extremely tanklike, too much so in my opinion. The fact that they can dps while heal traited is wrong (also goes for any class on both sides. Really should only do one specialization.)

The fact that a minnie can dps OR heal is irrelevant because minnies have to do one or the other to get the full benefit, where defilers can do both and tank at the same time. The tank/survivability is what I'm focusing on - I want my minnie to be able to survive as well as a defiler.

Minstrels have burst healing... why would they need a tank's survivability? Minstrels are ridiculous currently. Increasing heals or survivability would make it absolutely OP.

[sm91]

Fair enough, absolutely correct, freepside has more utility and choices - not only skill-wise, but also choices of classes.

However. Defilers are extremely tanklike, too much so in my opinion. The fact that they can dps while heal traited is wrong (also goes for any class on both sides. Really should only do one specialization.)

The fact that a minnie can dps OR heal is irrelevant because minnies have to do one or the other to get the full benefit, where defilers can do both and tank at the same time. The tank/survivability is what I'm focusing on - I want my minnie to be able to survive as well as a defiler.

So you want crazy mini heals AND more tankiness (you can have 46% mits with a cappy in group, and i think 51% tactical dipping in yellow?)? How is a blue mini ever going to die, especially if you get 35k+ morale like some do?

[RGilthanas]

So you want crazy mini heals AND more tankiness (you can have 46% mits with a cappy in group, and i think 51% tactical dipping in yellow?)? How is a blue mini ever going to die, especially if you get 35k+ morale like some do?

Seems very similar to Defiler's stats. Without any buffs.

[Giliodor]

Seems very similar to Defiler's stats. Without any buffs.

How many more times does it need to be said... Minstrels have better heals. Especially when we take the morale pools ratio into account. My minstrel with awful stats can outheal 5-6 creeps easily with stun immunity on me. No defiler can do such a thing. Minstrels have it better than defilers. Stop whining.

[sm91]

Seems very similar to Defiler's stats. Without any buffs.

Do some maths with HP, heals, damage ratios please. I could understand if creeps had something similar to red cappy putting +57%(OB, telling mark, sure strike with set bonus and the 2% from crits) inc damage while buffing a lot all dps too, but there isn't anything close to that.

[Sezneg]

Seems very similar to Defiler's stats. Without any buffs.

I've come to realize that the magnitude of mitigation is not nearly as important as the spread from heavy to light classes. That's why, IMO things are better with some compression between the heavy and light levels. You can balance damage around any mitigation value... but when you have to balance it between paper and a brick wall, you end up either atomizing the paper, or making no headway against the brick wall.

[Thaelon]

an utterly abysmal 3/10 reaver (self proclaimed best reaver in the world) and 2-3 of his other accounts...

rofl, how can you rate my skill when you claim you have never fought me(we both know thats a lie as i have farmed you multiple times but you seem to insist it never happened)? I would also like to know who on these forums you think are my "2-3 other accounts" so they can laugh at you too.

Try using fates stone a 2nd time around when 3 VTs are off CD just as your stones duration ends. Lemme know how that goes

If you need to rely on cds to live through 3 bas then you fail however if you truly needed help with this situation you could bubble or just go about your regular heal rotation and outheal the 3 vts nps

Essay bubble is gone in the blink of an eye and whilst it's a really good skill it's not comparable to being able to heal an ally from 5k to 25k in one skill press with a delay of around 0.2 second for the second bolster to hit.

Thats the point of "absorption" bubbles, they are meant to absorb, you only use bubble when you know you are going to take a/some big hits and you want to absorb them. As for minis heals being bigger sure, they are bigger however rks heal for far more in the same period of time as minis do, not to mention the fact that neither you nor giliodor seem to be understanding, Minis cannot reliably heal while they are being ccd, rks can

[Jakreal]

when the mits update hit (no more from vit might ect.) i remember equinox complaining that he had to equip mits saying that "i lose to much dps, i shouldnt have to equip mits"

as a warden

[Thaelon]

when the mits update hit (no more from vit might ect.) i remember equinox complaining that he had to equip mits saying that "i lose to much dps, i shouldnt have to equip mits"

as a warden

no dude, you must have it wrong(not really), equinoxx knows exactly what he is talking about in this game(except everything), he is never wrong(except about everything)

[Thorandril]

How many more times does it need to be said... Minstrels have better heals. Especially when we take the morale pools ratio into account. My minstrel with awful stats can outheal 5-6 creeps easily with stun immunity on me. No defiler can do such a thing. Minstrels have it better than defilers. Stop whining.

When you have to contend with 5+ in any given fight, maybe minstrels will need a fine tuning. As is... morale pools are sort bunk, since anyone above a decent rank can get 80,000+. And there's no reason not to, morale is still king for creep corruptions.

[Giliodor]

When you have to contend with 5+ in any given fight, maybe minstrels will need a fine tuning. As is... morale pools are sort bunk, since anyone above a decent rank can get 80,000+. And there's no reason not to, morale is still king for creep corruptions.

And they can stack HoT's on all 5+ at once? I doubt it. You can nuke them down quite easily, especially since HoT's don't counter burst DPS.

[LEGENDofALL]

How many more times does it need to be said... Minstrels have better heals. Especially when we take the morale pools ratio into account. My minstrel with awful stats can outheal 5-6 creeps easily with stun immunity on me. No defiler can do such a thing. Minstrels have it better than defilers. Stop whining.

Minstrels heals are awesome no doubt about it and yeah I'll give them the edge as the best healer but its pretty close with defiler.

[Sezneg]

When you have to contend with 5+ in any given fight, maybe minstrels will need a fine tuning. As is... morale pools are sort bunk, since anyone above a decent rank can get 80,000+. And there's no reason not to, morale is still king for creep corruptions.

Once you figure out when the defiler needs to refresh Efflorescence, and have someone disrupt them, it falls apart for them pretty quick.

[ScrettleSllim]

Defilers need FAR more of a nerf. Not just to their heals, but also to their survivability.

Honestly, GET RID OF MY MINNIE'S DPS AND GIVE ME THE SURVIVABILITY OF A DEFILER!

Honestly I think that an RK lasts longer then what a Defiler does Defensively.
A bubble and reflective stun to all melee, best get away skill.
Two other bubbles.

Though in saying that whenever I see a defiler it is -30% incoming healing straight away. So this might have changed my opinion on the topic.

[Ethrildar]

An RK will keep itself alive longer versus a few creeps assuming the class make-up isn't perfect for fighting the RK, than a Defiler will. However when its 6v6 and you've got a defiler, you've effectively got a VERY VERY good debuffer, a more than reasonable DPS and a seriously over-potent incoming heals debuff, AS WELL AS some of the best heals in the game. And to whoever says "hots dont counter burst" sure they don't, but when each pulse of one of the 4 stackable hots can crit heal for 10k+, that more than accounts for whatever burst a ranked creep is gonna take from a freep DPS. Other than that, nothing would ever die.

What makes defis really overpowered (I don't think they're that overpowered, but they need a tone down) is that they can debuff (very well) DPS (far more than adequately) and heal all at the same time with next to zero trait trade-off. That, and having very good mits and being able to achieve over 100k morale (seen a rank 14 defi with 106k or something utterly ridiculous) any creep worth his salt knows that morale stacking = winning, most of all on a healer.

Defilers have just got too much of everything, whereas minis are better healers than defis, they cannot dps (at all....) they have no aoe fear to screw up melees, they have no debuffs what-so-ever... and the same is true of RKs. Trying to DPS or debuff on a healing RK or Mini is just a total waste of healing time. Neither class can afford to do this, RK HOTS are quite potent but they're tiny duration for the most part, stopping your heal rotation to spam out any dps/debuff skill with 80% resist rate in a heal build with low finesse, is just a huge waste of time.

[Jakreal]

ok just wow equi ... this is just constant babble commin out of you with no evidence ...

However when its 6v6 and you've got a defiler, you've effectively got a VERY VERY good debuffer,

6v6 ... and you play on brandy so im gonna just throw your credibility out the window

6v6 and a defiler is debuffing when he probably should be focusing on healing... unless there is another healer... what are the group make ups both sides? need more info before saying he can just debuff cause a solo filer doing that will not only waste time cause you have 5 dps im guessing? but vs a good freep group of 6 he will definitely die. you kidding me lol? vs 5 dps hes gonna not beable to stop healing to try to debuff...

That, and having very good mits and being able to achieve over 100k morale (seen a rank 14 defi with 106k or something utterly ridiculous) any creep worth his salt knows that morale stacking = winning, most of all on a healer.

Again if you are basing this off a solo filer doing this in a 6v6 than not only will his heals suck cause hes morale stacking... but you could probably ignore him all together and kill his dps.

They do not have very good mits either with just delving pot buff we get 39.7% beleriand round the same for tactical.

Ill also take this into a dps sort of view too since you said "ANY creep worth his salt" meaning them all. Im not sure where you get these ideas. If you morale stack you either lose offence or defence, or both kinda. Both morale for damages.. thats what -7.5% damage. You take up 2 additional spots so figure out the what you are giving up there when it comes to whatever you are replacing offence\defence traits with. All for a single or a couple extra hits on you.

but when each pulse of one of the 4 stackable hots can crit heal for 10k+

Not one single defiler hot can hit 10k not one of them(if you glass and you have r15 and ONLY EFFLORESCENCE maybe you might hit 10k with it lmao)...I really just don't know where you get these ideas.

You'll maybe see 6-8 ON >>>EFFLORESCENCE<<< and that's MAYBE like 2-3 times per rotation on the hot its not like the thing crits every single time. Every other hot doesnt get that high and two of them pulse every 5 seconds....(fungal bloom, and fungal spores)

This is my heals which isn't a morale stack R12 filer with 2 outposts

Fertile slime crits for like 3-5.2k (With fungal spore +15% inc heal)
Fungal Spores crits for 4.2k-5.5k
Fungal Bloom crits for the same as slime seeing as it has the same tooltip on the hot
Eflorescence crits for about 5.8k-7.4k (With fungal spore +15% inc heal)

Depends on your traits and the targets rank (inc heal)

From my traits you've said that any creep worth his salt morale stacks stupidity so they already lose the 7.5% damage from just morales for damages

Im guessing they'd take off a crit rating for only two (that would be the smartest thing to do still have cap crit chance{unless you wanna lose the 3 set from mastery or crit defence}) (38% crit mag to 29.1%)

I have the 5% damage for power traited... they would take that off for a morale for damage so that's another 5% damage loss....

So youd lose quite a sufficient amount of healing for just making your morale pool bigger... by about... 11k morale... 74k to 85k on my filer...


You need to gather resources and evidence before you post because you really just have no clue what you are talking about and have put no effort into finding evidence or providing facts at all

[Ethrildar]

ok just wow equi ... this is just constant babble commin out of you with no evidence ...

6v6 ... and you play on brandy so im gonna just throw your credibility out the window

A few things.

No evidence, are you having a laugh? What did I say that requires evidence. Learn what the word means then start using it in sentences. This is basic.

6v6 with 5 DPS? Jeez that'd go great with 1 healer on either side. In the same way the defiler would get utterly rekt by 5 DPS, so would literally any freep healer no matter how good. lol. It's more a question of you can have 3 DPS, 1 WL and 2 Defs, and both Defilers can put out more than adequate DPS and good debuffs whilst also maintaining very good heals THAT STACK WITH EACHOTHER. Learn how to build a group.

My credibility goes out of the Window because I play on Brandywine (and Eldar)... Wut? Why exactly? You played here for a while, got utterly destroyed by pretty much everyone, failed at trolling, everybody creep & freep hated you and then you left, tail between your legs back to whichever trash server you came from.

That's one.

Two: You play a rank 10 defiler, clearly FOTM. And MY credibility goes out of the window? LOL. If you don't know how to make the class work well, more fool you, I'm not teaching you how, too many defilers on my servers as-is.

[Thorandril]

Once you figure out when the defiler needs to refresh Efflorescence, and have someone disrupt them, it falls apart for them pretty quick.

All it really takes it one, fights don't last long enough for this to be a reasonable way of dealing with them nor do we have access to the amount of healing debuffs we need to even cancel out the buffs they receive from BFP's.

And when all is said and done, there's still enough of them out to convince me there's an issue and it isn't how easy it is to kill a single one of them when the stars align with proper buffs/debuffs/group compositions. My problem has never been a single defiler alone, but how easy the class is to play/rank resulting in multitudes upon multitudes of the class with little to no fallback on how to deal with them but lag out and die due to blight spam. I remember taking a group out the first few weeks after the classes ridiculous overbuffing being unable to kill a single thing and having the entire keep (majority of any given room) covered in AOE -100% heal debuff pools while we struggled to even debuff/kill one target.

All things being equal the issue isn't their heals, it's their ease of application and potency of their healing debuff that has the potential to nearly control the direction of a fight. Their self heal ability being too high due to BFP healing buffs on ranked creeps in tandem with an overbloated morale pool while having fewer heal debuffs with weaker magnitudes freepside. Simple interrupting efflorescence really gets you nowhere and marginalizes the bigger picture problem.

EDIT: Also every induction looks the exact same so I'm not really sure how you can be serious