Traitor in Rohan

[Stasik]

Note: Spoilers included about Rohan Epic Questline in the next few lines

Hi guys, I just have a quick question about the storyline in Volume III. First some background. In Chapter 6, we find in Stoke that there is a traitor in Rohan, someone who is apparently working for Grima Wormtongue. We find that this traitor was impersonating a guard of Stoke (whom we find dead). He escapes and we deduce that he probably escaped to the Stonedeans. We are tasked with delivering this information about the traitor to the leader of Woodhurst. In fact, this is basically our only task. However, when we arrive at Woodhurst, we seemingly immediately forget this and get caught up in the internal affairs of that hold. It could be argued that the story writers simply forgot, or that this was an oversight, except that a few quests later it's alluded that we had not yet caught the traitor.

So, my question is, is this issue resolved anywhere further along, either in a side quest, or otherwise? It's been killing me that we haven't gotten any closure on this, so if someone, either an observant player, or maybe even MadeOfLions, could provide some info, that would be amazing!

[Altair6]

So, my question is, is this issue resolved anywhere further along, either in a side quest, or otherwise?

Without giving anything away the answer to your question is, yes, it is.

[Polymachos]

We identify 'a' traitor, but is he identical to the one with the mysterious brooch? If I remember correctly, the first traitor is unknown to all people, and seems to have hair of a reddish blond color. The guy that we finally find, doesn't really match this description imho.


Greetings, Polymachos

[DiogoVP]

Note: Spoilers included about Rohan Epic Questline in the next few lines

Hi guys, I just have a quick question about the storyline in Volume III. First some background. In Chapter 6, we find in Stoke that there is a traitor in Rohan, someone who is apparently working for Grima Wormtongue. We find that this traitor was impersonating a guard of Stoke (whom we find dead). He escapes and we deduce that he probably escaped to the Stonedeans. We are tasked with delivering this information about the traitor to the leader of Woodhurst. In fact, this is basically our only task. However, when we arrive at Woodhurst, we seemingly immediately forget this and get caught up in the internal affairs of that hold. It could be argued that the story writers simply forgot, or that this was an oversight, except that a few quests later it's alluded that we had not yet caught the traitor.

So, my question is, is this issue resolved anywhere further along, either in a side quest, or otherwise? It's been killing me that we haven't gotten any closure on this, so if someone, either an observant player, or maybe even MadeOfLions, could provide some info, that would be amazing!

That is a question I make to myself everytime I do those epic quests on my alts. I don't remember seeing the answer anywhere. Have you finished Volume III? It might be answered in one of the session plays with the ents too, Idk.

[Stasik]

That is a question I make to myself everytime I do those epic quests on my alts. I don't remember seeing the answer anywhere. Have you finished Volume III? It might be answered in one of the session plays with the ents too, Idk.

Once again, spoilers follow!

To answer your question, yes I finished all the books, seemingly all the quests, and everything in Rohan, as I like to fully complete all regions as I walk through them. This is just something that came up in conversation again as I was talking with a friend. I know we catch Ordlac and Grimlac, but neither of them seem to fit the original description of the traitor we were given, so I had ruled them out. I'm hoping I had missed something that would either indicate that one of those two were the traitor, or something that would lead us to the true person.

[DiogoVP]

Once again, spoilers follow!

To answer your question, yes I finished all the books, seemingly all the quests, and everything in Rohan, as I like to fully complete all regions as I walk through them. This is just something that came up in conversation again as I was talking with a friend. I know we catch Ordlac and Grimlac, but neither of them seem to fit the original description of the traitor we were given, so I had ruled them out. I'm hoping I had missed something that would either indicate that one of those two were the traitor, or something that would lead us to the true person.

Have you done all the Ents session play? MadeofLions said in another thread that the traitor wasn't Ordlac or Grimlac or anyone from the normal quests of West Rohan. He said it was going to be revealed in the epic quests. And if I remember correctly, he said it was going to be revealed in the update that would bring the break of Isengard. But maybe he forgot about the traitor some months later and didn't finish that piece of the story with the update that came.

[D-molisher]

I finished hytbold quests.
After completing the last one, meeting with the thanes ...

You reveal the real traitor, and go releace the false one you got imprisoned.

[DiogoVP]

I finished hytbold quests.
After completing the last one, meeting with the thanes ...

You reveal the real traitor, and go releace the false one you got imprisoned.

We're talking about a different traitor here. From a Quest Chain that comes way after Hytbold.

[OldMadeOfLions]

It's been killing me that we haven't gotten any closure on this...

I had more plans for the traitor, but I didn't like how some of the quests in Rohan ended up giving the impression that there were more traitors in the kingdom than good people, so I shelved it. I might bring him back in some form, but it seems every Riding had a traitor and I thought the theme might have gotten a little overdone.

MoL

[Warmutkan]

You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

Seems like every town in Rohan is being run by traitors, women, or children. I'm amazed that Joffrey hasn't made an appearance yet.

[Giliodor]

I had more plans for the traitor, but I didn't like how some of the quests in Rohan ended up giving the impression that there were more traitors in the kingdom than good people, so I shelved it. I might bring him back in some form, but it seems every Riding had a traitor and I thought the theme might have gotten a little overdone.

MoL

A little, you say?

[Aedfrith]

A little, you say?

Yup, by the end of Rohan I got the impression we'd be fighting 1/3 of the population as well as the Uruks.

[DiogoVP]

I had more plans for the traitor, but I didn't like how some of the quests in Rohan ended up giving the impression that there were more traitors in the kingdom than good people, so I shelved it. I might bring him back in some form, but it seems every Riding had a traitor and I thought the theme might have gotten a little overdone.

MoL

Yeah, I get that.
Maybe the traitor is riding to Minas Tirith with the rest of the rohirrims. haha
I would love if we could follow that path (From the Eastfold to Gondor).
I could imagine we being called by the Rohirrim on their march to discover who is the traitor they think are among them.
Also, isn't Nona trying to convince Horn from not going to battle? Because of the Fate she was told about him and Horn is probably going to Minas Tirith, unless they are already at Minas Tirith by now. lol
I could imagine an episodic quest with them, even though I don't know what an Episodic Content is supposed to be :P

[Hurin]

MadeOfLions,

Do you have any input in the "loot" or rewards attributed to the content you create? I ask because I think some of your content is spoiled by it being made "mandatory" in order to receive Trait/Skill points. Sorta like how a book you were reading and really enjoying suddenly becomes a chore as soon as a class you're taking assigns it.

But more seriously, it'd be great if Class/Trait points were disassociated with finishing the entire quest arc in certain zones (especially every zone in Western Rohan). If they were not associated with those zones (and completing every quest therein), we could once again choose our favorite places to level/progress or choose places we missed the first time around. . . instead we are sorta led by the nose through the same content over and over again if we want our alts to be "fully armed and operational."

--H

Edit: Sorry if this is a bit OT. I thought it related because the questline under discussion is one of the longer ones that I notice the most when grinding out its trait point.

[DiogoVP]

MadeOfLions,

Do you have any input in the "loot" or rewards attributed to the content you create? I ask because I think some of your content is spoiled by it being made "mandatory" in order to receive Trait/Skill points. Sorta like how a book you were reading and really enjoying suddenly becomes a chore as soon as a class you're taking assigns it.

But more seriously, it'd be great if Class/Trait points were disassociated with finishing the entire quest arc in certain zones (especially every zone in Western Rohan). If they were not associated with those zones (and completing every quest therein), we could once again choose our favorite places to level/progress or choose places we missed the first time around. . . instead we are sorta led by the nose through the same content over and over again if we want our alts to be "fully armed and operational."

--H

Edit: Sorry if this is a bit OT. I thought it related because the questline under discussion is one of the longer ones that I notice the most when grinding out its trait point.

There are only two regions that have that: Western Rohan and Central Gondor. And you're asking that to someone who wants us to do all the quests from every area? lol
Besides that, we wouldn't have a reason to do the Central Gondor since we're likely going to level cap with Western Gondor alone. If we want the essences we can simply just buy them or buy the rep items and give to someone who can barter them and then give them to us. And if they take away the class points there, there won't be much reason to do the quests. Take it as an incentive for you to do the quests. If you want to do the quests from other areas, that won't stop you from doing it, you know?

[Hurin]

There are only two regions that have that: Western Rohan and Central Gondor. And you're asking that to someone who wants us to do all the quests from every area? lol
Besides that, we wouldn't have a reason to do the Central Gondor since we're likely going to level cap with Western Gondor alone. If we want the essences we can simply just buy them or buy the rep items and give to someone who can barter them and then give them to us. And if they take away the class points there, there won't be much reason to do the quests. Take it as an incentive for you to do the quests. If you want to do the quests from other areas, that won't stop you from doing it, you know?

Oddly, people did content before there were Class/Trait points at all. They just felt more free to do the content they preferred.

Second, pointing out that it's "only" an issue in two of the last three regions added to the game only emphasizes the problem and the concern. It is a departure from precedent. And one that an increasing number of posters are noting is undesirable.

And while I would never presume to speak for MadeOfLions and state unequivocally that he wants us to do all the content as you have, I would merely guess that he would want us to do all the content the first time around (as I have) but wouldn't mind at all if our alts only felt compelled to do the content we prefer and want to experience again.

But sorry, stating that "there would be no reason" to do content in the absence of Skill Points doesn't really address the issue. If anything, it illustrates the problem rather than explains why it isn't one.

[Ardineck]

I had more plans for the traitor, but I didn't like how some of the quests in Rohan ended up giving the impression that there were more traitors in the kingdom than good people, so I shelved it. I might bring him back in some form, but it seems every Riding had a traitor and I thought the theme might have gotten a little overdone.

MoL

I would say that would make the most sense, especially if we were to find Wormtongue had something to do with it, installing traitors like himself in positions where they could do the most damage. Someone had to implement the crazy things that the king was letting happen while Wormtongue was holding sway and as much as Saruman got out, he couldn't have been overseeing everything all the time. It is a logical (in my opinion) extension of what we read in the books. I think almost everything you've done is great, except contradicting the books on the meeting time of the Grey Company and Aragorn. Gray areas I can easily get over. Black and white and on the page is your only strike with me.

Further, I think it was necessary to show there were traitors everywhere. They don't have to be the mustache-twirling weirdos, but JUST creepy and corrupt to do damage - you know, like in every stage of government we have now (ALL parties). After all, there can't be more traitors than good people - there don't have to be, though. One with a modicum of power is just enough. They all did just enough damage to make a difference and almost enough to bring everything down. The great problem each faced was that there was no coordination because each sought for a position of power of which another may have also been promised. I'm thinking of the scene in The Dark Knight where the Joker holds auditions with a broken pool cue. Each of these traitors may have been promised personally by Grima or Saruman and thought he was destined for greatness. Every one of them was expendable and wrong. In some cases, it could have been coercion, some threats, some simple appeals to greed. The manner should certainly be varied when you are writing the stories, but in the end, it comes down to Saruman lacking the sort of power he wants and seeing opportunity in the same race of people that could have ended everything by tossing a ring into a volcano, but kept it instead.

[Stasik]

I had more plans for the traitor, but I didn't like how some of the quests in Rohan ended up giving the impression that there were more traitors in the kingdom than good people, so I shelved it. I might bring him back in some form, but it seems every Riding had a traitor and I thought the theme might have gotten a little overdone.

MoL

Thank you for this information! It would be amazing if you could bring him back, of course, maybe as a last hurrah to the traitors we've dealt with in Rohan, but if it's not feasible or wouldn't be able to fit in, I understand. At the very least, if you can't bring him back, would you mind sharing what your original plans were for him? It brings me satisfaction in knowing that there isn't some secret quest I've missed, but I just need that closure!

[DiogoVP]

Oddly, people did content before there were Class/Trait points at all. They just felt more free to do the content they preferred.

Second, pointing out that it's "only" an issue in two of the last three regions added to the game only emphasizes the problem and the concern. It is a departure from precedent. And one that an increasing number of posters are noting is undesirable.

And while I would never presume to speak for MadeOfLions and state unequivocally that he wants us to do all the content as you have, I would merely guess that he would want us to do all the content the first time around (as I have) but wouldn't mind at all if our alts only felt compelled to do the content we prefer and want to experience again.

But sorry, stating that "there would be no reason" to do content in the absence of Skill Points doesn't really address the issue. If anything, it illustrates the problem rather than explains why it isn't one.

Well, sorry if you didn't see it was a joke about MadeOfLions. It is obvious he doesn't want us to do all the content all over again if we've done them already. I wouldn't make such a presumption lol. But he sure is going to encourage anyone who's never been in an area to do the quests and other contents of the area.
And let's see. Is there any other area you could do quests from level 85 - 95 besides West Rohan? I don't think so. Because the only area you will get to level between those levels is West Rohan.

And Central Gondor? Mmm... If they remove the class trait points I think what's most likely going to happen is that 80% of players at level 100 will skip that area with their toons that haven't been there yet.
Central Gondor is a really fast area, tbh. And I personally think it was a great idea to have the class trait points there. Do you want to do Western Gondor and then you wanna skip it and go to straight to the future region of Eastern Gondor or whatever region is going to be released with Osgilliath?

Anyway, that is a complicated issue. If they were to remove the class trait points from the quests, they would have to think of another way to deliver them and it wouldn't be by other areas's quests. So would it be new class deeds? Well man, I have to say that 5 class trait points is a lot and you can't get 5 points that easy like you get with some class quests you can do so fast as the class quest from level 58. And if it is going to be new class deeds, it would take as much time as you would take to do each of the central gondor areas. So, Idk, I think it would be complicated to remove the points from the quests and then think of something else to attach the class trait points rewards to.

All that said, I apologize for the misunderstanding.

[Grimsin'sRiders]

Rohan - hell - even Great River (Stangard) was having traitor troubles as I recall

[Hurin]

And let's see. Is there any other area you could do quests from level 85 - 95 besides West Rohan? I don't think so. Because the only area you will get to level between those levels is West Rohan.

This isn't true. With rest XP, you can fill about 20% of the bar for level 99 by running a single run of The School at Tham Mirdan or any other instance. Instances are how I've gotten my Guardian from about 95 to 99. Because I just can't bare to do Western Gondor again. Though, of course, for the Trait Points, I'll eventually have to. . .

Not to mention that you can swing about three levels (in difficulty) either way and still level effectively. I skipped vast swaths of Eastern Rohan on my last two alts. And I would skip vast swaths of Western Rohan to skip to Gondor, etc. As it stands, you are forced to stay in a region long after you've outleveled it or would be better-served to adventure elsewhere, because you need the Trait Point.

Do you want to do Western Gondor and then you wanna skip it and go to straight to the future region of Eastern Gondor or whatever region is going to be released with Osgilliath?

The option would be nice, yes. And if the only reason that's something you don't see as viable is because it gives Trait Points, again, that emphasizes the problem rather than explaining it away.

Anyway, that is a complicated issue. If they were to remove the class trait points from the quests, they would have to think of another way to deliver them and it wouldn't be by other areas's quests. So would it be new class deeds? Well man, I have to say that 5 class trait points is a lot and you can't get 5 points that easy like you get with some class quests you can do so fast as the class quest from level 58. And if it is going to be new class deeds, it would take as much time as you would take to do each of the central gondor areas. So, Idk, I think it would be complicated to remove the points from the quests and then think of something else to attach the class trait points rewards to.

From level 90 to 100, the game could grant two per level to replace those granted from Western Rohan and Gondor. Done.

We used to be more free to get to the level cap however we wanted. Yes, there were Virtues, and there were book pages to get, and equipment to be obtained, but our path through the leveling process was essentially left to us wherever possible. I merely point out that these Trait Point associations are a departure from that precedent. And an increasingly unwelcome one.

--H

[DiogoVP]

This isn't true. With rest XP, you can fill about 20% of the bar for level 99 by running a single run of The School at Tham Mirdan or any other instance. Instances are how I've gotten my Guardian from about 95 to 99. Because I just can't bare to do Western Gondor again. Though, of course, for the Trait Points, I'll eventually have to. . .

--H

Actually it is true, because I said Area and not Instances. West Rohan is the only AREA that can get you from +/- 85 to +/- 95. Not to mention the West Rohan quests are still a thing for some people that craft supreme essences.

And you won't have to do Western Gondor again because they don't give class trait points. As I said, the only areas are West Rohan and Central Gondor, which was a region released without an increase of the level cap, which for me, justifies putting the class trait points to make the region more relevant now and in the future. Maybe you should also suggest taking out the class deeds, because let's be honest, no one likes to use the same skill 1000 times just to complete a deed. And also suggest other ways to get virtues, killing an enemy 400 times is not a challenge, it just takes too much time and patience - which is kind of a psychological challenge. hehehe
BUT, my point is: inconveniences are part of this game, if you want virtues and class trait points, you're gonna have to do things that you don't like. That is my opinion.

[Hurin]

Actually it is true, because I said Area and not Instances. West Rohan is the only AREA that can get you from +/- 85 to +/- 95. Not to mention the West Rohan quests are still a thing for some people that craft supreme essences.

This seems like semantics. But if you want to cling to that technicality and ignore the larger (obvious) point as well as all the other ways you can still level and skip Western Rohan (or only do portions of it), I can't stop you.

And you won't have to do Western Gondor again because they don't give class trait points. As I said, the only areas are West Rohan and Central Gondor, which was a region released without an increase of the level cap, which for me, justifies putting the class trait points to make the region more relevant now and in the future.

That was a typo. It was supposed to be Western Rohan.

But, regardless, what if I prefer to do Western Gondor instead of the latter part of Western Rohan or the beginning of Central Gondor? That's the entire point. And you just seem to be intentionally missing it.

Maybe you should also suggest taking out the class deeds, because let's be honest, no one likes to use the same skill 1000 times just to complete a deed.

This is comparing apples to oranges. As I think you well know. You accomplish your class deeds while questing. Ideally, doing the quests you enjoy.

And also suggest other ways to get virtues, killing an enemy 400 times is not a challenge, it just takes too much time and patience - which is kind of a psychological challenge.

See above. Not at all the same thing. Nor the same principles or precedents involved.

hehehe

I'm glad you're having fun. But it's less fun to explain why points don't make sense than it is to make those points.

BUT, my point is: inconveniences are part of this game, if you want virtues and class trait points, you're gonna have to do things that you don't like. That is my opinion.

Time is the ultimate currency in an MMO. Nobody disputes that and if anything, this game has become too easy and the existence of the LotRO Store has made timesinks in this game too easily worked around (even as the Store's existence encourages Turbine to increase those grinds in order to discourage folks from overcoming them the old fashioned way). But we're not talking about "inconvenience" here. We're talking about taking a permanent upgrade to your character and tying them to activities to which they've never been attached prior. As I said, it's a change in precedent and not a good one. People can gird themselves up to get a Slayer deed done. They can remind themselves to use that skill as much as possible while adventuring. But it's another thing altogether to say: "I have to spend the next two or three weeks in Western Rohan and Central Gondor instead of grouping with my friends or doing the content I enjoy or my toon will be permanently underpowered." As was said in other threads, a lot of people are giving up on their long-standing alts habit for this very reason. It's not a good change.

I can relate to the impulse to always find a reason why something should be the way it is. I just happen to believe that impulse is misplaced here and have explained why. You're free of course to disagree but so far your assertions of equivalence to other achievements in the game or other game systems seem flawed.

--H

[Calta]

I had more plans for the traitor, but I didn't like how some of the quests in Rohan ended up giving the impression that there were more traitors in the kingdom than good people, so I shelved it. I might bring him back in some form, but it seems every Riding had a traitor and I thought the theme might have gotten a little overdone.

MoL

You were right I think if the various traitor stories had been joined more overtly with common ideology/aim/reason , rather like the falcon clan/ox clan allegiances were spelled out nicely in Dunland and later, it would have felt cumulative and worrying rather than simply repetitive...

But I too would like to see what happens to that particular brooch wearing traitor later in the story, especially if he/they were part of a cell based group with a common aim/leader and to know whatever their common point of view was-did they see themselves as a resistance/ fifth column/greed motivated traitors/freedom fighters against autocracies/ethnic revolutionary movements/or just corrupted by evil magic.

The Dunlamd and Rohirrim emerging factionalism/old wounds/tensions really impressed me. So reminiscent of the world today. As soon as society is under threat it seems like old ethnic/tribal/religious/cultural tensions from 100s of years ago and forgotten for many generations, are the first to resurface. It's a pity these story arcs got swamped by the cleaning up after lazy Thanes and go fetch quests in the area.

I did also like the women 'stepping up' in the absence of the fighting men-very realistic. Wonder how the remaining Rohirrim men will take it when they return home from Gondor, and Pelennor, to discover that after the siege of HD is over, the women have returned to work, their homes fires are still burning and their farms are still operating. May shake up their society a bit. Maybe we get to see that on our return.

I'd like to see the scouring of the shire but i'd like to see the social changes in all the lands after the ring is destroyed too.

Sorry for the ramble. Your work always inspires me to rave on!
Calta

edit: I'd too would like to see the class points allocation uncoupled from these areas quests-perhaps just linked to the last book of the epic and a level gate. There are quests in Rohan I really enjoy but other areas that just don't do it for me. The latter is beginning to taint my enjoyment of the former. And the taint is more noticeable wih everry repetition.

[DiogoVP]

This seems like semantics. But if you want to cling to that technicality and ignore the larger (obvious) point as well as all the other ways you can still level and skip Western Rohan (or only do portions of it), I can't stop you.

No, you said I was telling something that wasn't true and I wasn't. Of course I know people do many instances to get level and I am one of those players who don't like this method of getting XP, but I am not gonna stop people who do it or neither am I going to argue with that person.

That was a typo. It was supposed to be Western Rohan.

But, regardless, what if I prefer to do Western Gondor instead of the latter part of Western Rohan or the beginning of Central Gondor? That's the entire point. And you just seem to be intentionally missing it.

What if I don't wanna do class deeds on my mini where I have to use a 2 min cooldown skill on yellow line - which is by far the worst mini line (no one uses it unless they are doing the deeds) - like 200 or 300 times?

This is comparing apples to oranges. As I think you well know. You accomplish your class deeds while questing. Ideally, doing the quests you enjoy.

No, no and no. You don't accomplish all your deeds while questing. That works for cappies and some other classes. But there are other classes like LMs, RKs, Minis, Wardens... you have to take your time to do each class deed individually - those that remain - and by the time you're at the level cap you have +/- 7 class deeds to do.

Time is the ultimate currency in an MMO. Nobody disputes that and if anything, this game has become too easy and the existence of the LotRO Store has made timesinks in this game too easily worked around (even as the Store's existence encourages Turbine to increase those grinds in order to discourage folks from overcoming them the old fashioned way). But we're not talking about "inconvenience" here. We're talking about taking a permanent upgrade to your character and tying them to activities to which they've never been attached prior. As I said, it's a change in precedent and not a good one. People can gird themselves up to get a Slayer deed done. They can remind themselves to use that skill as much as possible while adventuring. But it's another thing altogether to say: "I have to spend the next two or three weeks in Western Rohan and Central Gondor instead of grouping with my friends or doing the content I enjoy or my toon will be permanently underpowered." As was said in other threads, a lot of people are giving up on their long-standing alts habit for this very reason. It's not a good change.

I can relate to the impulse to always find a reason why something should be the way it is. I just happen to believe that impulse is misplaced here and have explained why. You're free of course to disagree but so far your assertions of equivalence to other achievements in the game or other game systems seem flawed.

Well, I didn't say I agreed that it should stay as it is, killing mobs 400x and using the same skill 1000x sucks but do what? I gotta work on my own too and accept the things aint always easy, challenges are not always about challenging your performance playing your class and playing in groups, sometimes the challenge is to be patient to do those deeds. They have some things to work on like new challenges and group content, but that is another subject. And Central Gondor quests NEVER will take 2 or 3 weeks, unless you play 1 time per week. I am currently logging like 6 toons everyday and when I am all done, I go to my cappy to do quests in Central Gondor. It took me 4 days to finish it. And as I said, I run many alts per day and I even am kind of an afk back and forth player, so I waste a lot of my time when I am actually logged. Not to mention I tend to play the game more at night.



Now to finish this once and for all. We have changed the subject of the thread completely, so if you wanna keep talking about this you can send me a PM. But I don't wanna keep talking about this in this thread. Any response in this thread regarding this post I have just posted is not gonna be answered by me, so send a PM if you want to continue. Otherwise, let's leave it at that, ok?