There will be no "Return of the King"

[whisky.11]

There is no "now", there is only "then".

Gone are the days of old, when fellowships roamed the map in vain, searching for elusive gear, planning in advance for Friday night raids.
Gone are the days when goblins from the misty mountains held the pages to legendary books, that gave us extraordinary skills for Moria and beyond.
Gone are the days when through fellowship and triumph alone, we could wield rare relics left behind from the first age.

The Balrog once again roams free in the depths of Moria, unchallenged.
The Red Pass is all but lost in stories of old.
The armor of Fem has become but a legend lost in the desolation of Angmar.
Helchgam waits defiantly in Carn Dum, for a captain to claim his prize.

There will be no "Return of the King".
Lone stragglers alone will not see the ring returned to Mount Doom.
Tolkien, through his writings, has told us that the way to victory is through fellowship, and fellowship alone. Frodo could not have made it "solo" to Mount Doom, rather, he needed his fellowship throughout his entire journey.
Turbine has given us a solo game at this point. There really is no longer a need for a fellowship.

I long for the days of old. But my longing cries, along with many friends of old, go unanswered. They are lost in the barren world known as Middle Earth.

[Hammadryad]

I'm afraid you are right. This game is no longer about the fellowship of the ring, it's about trying to attract dollars from people who have probably never heard of Tolkein and don't care about the fellowship as long as they can have yet another Facebook style game that is on par with Farmsville.

[ellessarstarwalker]

Well said! I couldn't have said it any better myself! Just reading your post brought back so many memories of the "good ol' days," how fun and challenging they were, the raid nights shared amongst kinmates, and also to thinking back then about the great possibilities of new raids that were to eventually come as we got to Rohan, Gondor, and on to Mordor. All crushed thanks to Turbine's ridiculous decision to not create any more new raids - and speaking of crushed, so went the population of players as well.

[Mar-Evayave]

To play devil's advocate from the lore perspective... Frodo's fellowship dwindled down to a fellowship of two. xD That's why there is a chapter at the end of The Fellowship of the Ring that is called the Breaking of the Fellowship.

[Scirocco]

To play devil's advocate from the lore perspective... Frodo's fellowship dwindled down to a fellowship of two. xD That's why there is a chapter at the end of The Fellowship of the Ring that is called the Breaking of the Fellowship.

Ironically, yes. The source material stands for the proposition that a fellowship ultimately doesn't work and is doomed to failure. :0

[zagreb000]

Ironically, yes. The source material stands for the proposition that a fellowship ultimately doesn't work and is doomed to failure. :0

This is actually not true. You seem to forget that they are all reunited in the end showing that even though they were separated their fellowship remained strong.

On a side note. I left this game a year ago, but i read the forums from time to time due to nostalgia (every time i want to start the game up i just remember the unbearable daily grinds and Turbines complete lack of interest in anything the community suggests, so i click away), and i wouldnt even have commented if OP hadnt put it so well.
Nicely written.

[Yula_the_Mighty]

This is actually not true. You seem to forget that they are all reunited in the end showing that even though they were separated their fellowship remained strong.

They got together after the end for story telling, chips and salsa.

[Scirocco]

This is actually not true. You seem to forget that they are all reunited in the end showing that even though they were separated their fellowship remained strong.

Comments like this make me wonder if some folks really have read the books. I assume that you are referring to the various coronation proceedings at Minas Tirith (which hardly stands for the proposition that it took a fellowship to accomplish certain critical tasks to get to that point). More importantly, after that there was the scouring (which didn't involve a full fellowship), and then the true end, which actually involves another breaking as some, not all, sail off to the West.

I understand the longing for the "good old days" and the feelings of melancholy. They are inevitable with aging (of games, of people, of anything), and everybody has a pair of rose-colored glasses.

There are clear themes along those lines in LOTR, and I have no issue in drawing parallels to those. But it is bit excessive to try to use LOTR to support a lament for a particular game design, especially when you have to bend it substantially or, at least, ignore significant parts of it.

[Xhiu]

Interesting...

It does seem odd that we don't see the breaking until RoR but...

The Fellowship made it intact to the Argonath. At this time in our story we have had the last 12 man with RoI. Quite popular iirc.

At The Horn of Gondor we lose Boromir and are down to 8 and will never get a bigger fellowship. At the same time the duo of Frodo and Sam head for Mordor and pick up Gollum on the way. I don't think I'd call that a 3 man as I see Gollum as more of a Sara Oakheart type obstacle. Strider, Gimli and Legolas work the 3 man until Fangorn RoR, where they pick up Gandalf and become a 4 man for a bit.

At Helm's Deep Gandalf is off soloing; Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas are 3 manning Big Battles; Merry and Pippin are duo'ing Fangorn content in which their version is just about as interesting as our cleansing of Fangorn after HD. (I say that because the Hobbits are pretty much stuck waiting for an Ent discussion to end.) Frodo and Sam are duo'ing content we haven't seen yet.

We, as players, were never offered 9 man content. We can't even run a 9 man fellowship. I doubt Turbine planned to follow thie story in this fashion but it seems a decent parallel to me.

[Hammadryad]

Interesting...

It does seem odd that we don't see the breaking until RoR but...

The Fellowship made it intact to the Argonath. At this time in our story we have had the last 12 man with RoI. Quite popular iirc.

At The Horn of Gondor we lose Boromir and are down to 8 and will never get a bigger fellowship. At the same time the duo of Frodo and Sam head for Mordor and pick up Gollum on the way. I don't think I'd call that a 3 man as I see Gollum as more of a Sara Oakheart type obstacle. Strider, Gimli and Legolas work the 3 man until Fangorn RoR, where they pick up Gandalf and become a 4 man for a bit.

At Helm's Deep Gandalf is off soloing; Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas are 3 manning Big Battles; Merry and Pippin are duo'ing Fangorn content in which their version is just about as interesting as our cleansing of Fangorn after HD. (I say that because the Hobbits are pretty much stuck waiting for an Ent discussion to end.) Frodo and Sam are duo'ing content we haven't seen yet.

We, as players, were never offered 9 man content. We can't even run a 9 man fellowship. I doubt Turbine planned to follow thie story in this fashion but it seems a decent parallel to me.

Quite nicely put, however there is where the parallels between the story and the game part ways, as the only points in the story where there was solo content was Gandolf against the Balrog and Sam against Shellob which are specific instances rather than general gameplay.

[zagreb000]

Comments like this make me wonder if some folks really have read the books.

This makes you think i havent read the book? Trolls still roam these lands of the forums, i see. Carry on....

[SabrielofLorien]

To play devil's advocate from the lore perspective... Frodo's fellowship dwindled down to a fellowship of two. xD That's why there is a chapter at the end of The Fellowship of the Ring that is called the Breaking of the Fellowship.

Not entirely correct but open to interpretation. You have forgotten Sméagol/Gollum. It was he who found the ring and it was he who destroyed it. Frodo only carried to Mt Doom for him. At the end there were 3.

The fellowship never fully "disbanded" but did part ways. Those that carried the ring, even a small part of the way like Sam, were taken to the West. Those that remained in ME were life-long friends and did many deeds and had many adventures together. Post RotK, there were still orcs and gobblins roaming and Elrond's sons and others stayed until they were gone before departing too.


re: lost fellowships in LOTRO

In terms of nostalgia, in the kin I was in at that time, on raid nights and pre-raid nights even those that did not want to raid, participated by making food, and the all important hope tokens that were needed. They helped with armour and jewelry to outfit those that needed better crafted gear. It was a group effort.

While some raid groups were all-for-me-and-none-for-thee, the way we did it, included any member who wanted to help out. We made special gear and quest runs to help any member who wanted to get "up to speed" to get the minimum gear and items needed. It provided a focus point on the calendar. M-W prep/quests and F/S/S action. When locks were in place, we rotated out toons and repeated.

When we didn't have enough members to fill a raid, we had a few alliances with other kins in the same position, which made for new friends and questing partners. Some of the more experienced raiders would sometimes come to help and show us how to "avoid the puke puddles" (a move at which I am horrid).

We rarely "won" the raid and we knew that going into the instance. The motto was "have fun!". When we did win, it was a great celebration for all! It was a magic time in ME.

[Egilric]

Comments like this make me wonder if some folks really have read the books. I assume that you are referring to the various coronation proceedings at Minas Tirith (which hardly stands for the proposition that it took a fellowship to accomplish certain critical tasks to get to that point).

No.

Its quite clear he's referring to the fact that Frodo was a) not alone on Mount Doom (he had Sam with him) and b) Frodo could not have even got to Mount Doom unless Aragorn and the remainder of the original Fellowship were busy kicking orc-butt at the Black Gate.

Frodo needed the actions of the Fellowship to enable him to reach Mount Doom, that those actions took place away from Frodo's immediate vicinity do not mean Frodo could have succeeded without them.

Frodo was in a Fellowship, they just weren't all in the same place at the same time.

All The Best

[Econn71]

This is actually not true. You seem to forget that they are all reunited in the end showing that even though they were separated their fellowship remained strong.

On a side note. I left this game a year ago, but i read the forums from time to time due to nostalgia (every time i want to start the game up i just remember the unbearable daily grinds and Turbines complete lack of interest in anything the community suggests, so i click away), and i wouldnt even have commented if OP hadnt put it so well.
Nicely written.

I am the same way I will log in and play a few minutes every 4 or 5 months so I don't lose my housing then I log out because the game is going to hell. There is no excuse for negligent development teams and upper management. Their greed and failure to do as the community asks is destroying the game. Players have been asking for housing upgrades for years because the current system is broken and needs expanded to be more player usable right now it just serves as storage. If they would listen to us we have told then for years how they could make money off of housing so their claims of not being able to do it are full of bunk.

[Scirocco]

Not entirely correct but open to interpretation. You have forgotten Sméagol/Gollum. It was he who found the ring and it was he who destroyed it. Frodo only carried to Mt Doom for him. At the end there were 3.

The fellowship never fully "disbanded" but did part ways. Those that carried the ring, even a small part of the way like Sam, were taken to the West. Those that remained in ME were life-long friends and did many deeds and had many adventures together. Post RotK, there were still orcs and gobblins roaming and Elrond's sons and others stayed until they were gone before departing too.

I've always seen Sméagol more as an annoying NPC. He obviously wasn't a member of the Fellowship, unless you adopt a very expansive meaning of the term. But your point is taken.

In any event, I would say that the source work argues for the importance of supporting a multiplicity of playing styles. I would hope that most of us playing this game can agree on that.

[Mar-Evayave]

They got together after the end for story telling, chips and salsa.

Hey, don't knock chips and salsa and storytelling. xD

This is actually not true. You seem to forget that they are all reunited in the end showing that even though they were separated their fellowship remained strong.

Not completely. Boromir died. Tolkien himself called the Fellowship broken.

Interesting...

It does seem odd that we don't see the breaking until RoR but...

The Fellowship made it intact to the Argonath. At this time in our story we have had the last 12 man with RoI. Quite popular iirc.

At The Horn of Gondor we lose Boromir and are down to 8 and will never get a bigger fellowship. At the same time the duo of Frodo and Sam head for Mordor and pick up Gollum on the way. I don't think I'd call that a 3 man as I see Gollum as more of a Sara Oakheart type obstacle. Strider, Gimli and Legolas work the 3 man until Fangorn RoR, where they pick up Gandalf and become a 4 man for a bit.

At Helm's Deep Gandalf is off soloing; Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas are 3 manning Big Battles; Merry and Pippin are duo'ing Fangorn content in which their version is just about as interesting as our cleansing of Fangorn after HD. (I say that because the Hobbits are pretty much stuck waiting for an Ent discussion to end.) Frodo and Sam are duo'ing content we haven't seen yet.

We, as players, were never offered 9 man content. We can't even run a 9 man fellowship. I doubt Turbine planned to follow thie story in this fashion but it seems a decent parallel to me.

lol I love that! I wish it would fit in my sig!

Not entirely correct but open to interpretation. You have forgotten Sméagol/Gollum. It was he who found the ring and it was he who destroyed it. Frodo only carried to Mt Doom for him. At the end there were 3.

The fellowship never fully "disbanded" but did part ways. Those that carried the ring, even a small part of the way like Sam, were taken to the West. Those that remained in ME were life-long friends and did many deeds and had many adventures together. Post RotK, there were still orcs and gobblins roaming and Elrond's sons and others stayed until they were gone before departing too.

Ugh. Gollum is like that sort of person you really did not want to invite to your group but had no choice because you were short a player. In any case, he's not part of the Fellowship itself. And by the time they reached Mordor, Gollum betrayed them anyway, so it was back to the duo of Frodo/Sam.

Again Tolkien called it broken, so that qualifies as a disband IMO.

[Snowlock]

To play devil's advocate from the lore perspective... Frodo's fellowship dwindled down to a fellowship of two. xD That's why there is a chapter at the end of The Fellowship of the Ring that is called the Breaking of the Fellowship.

No, the fellowship never dwindled.

Gandalf's fall allowed him to come back as Gandalf the White, expell Saruman from the Order and rally Gondor to defeat Sauron at Minas Tirith and force the battle to the gates of Mordor, turning the enemy's eyes away so Sam, Gollum and Frodo could go up the side of the mountain. Of course Gandalf couldn't have accomplished that without:

Pippin and Merry who were captured by Orcs and brought to the Eves of Fangorn where they met Fangorn who in turn destroyed Isengard which trapped Saruman and put him in a position to be defeated by Gandalf the White, who would then go on to free Gondor to distract Sauron for Sam, Frodo and Gollum.

Aragorn, assisted by Gimili and Legolas, who chased Pippin and Merry, and in the process reunited with Gandalf the White, and then freed Rohan, which in turn would deliver Gondor at Minas Tirith, and went on to the black gate to distract Sauron for Frodo, Sam and Gollum.

The fellowship never dwindled, the physical distance between them grew, but they all acted as a team toward the same goal.

[Leixy]

Just wanted to point out, since Wednesday I've had no problem filling 7 raids of 12 players each day to farm the roving threats.

Your fellowship may be smaller, but mine certainly is not.

[Dordain]

There is no "now", there is only "then".

Gone are the days of old, when fellowships roamed the map in vain, searching for elusive gear, planning in advance for Friday night raids.
Gone are the days when goblins from the misty mountains held the pages to legendary books, that gave us extraordinary skills for Moria and beyond.
Gone are the days when through fellowship and triumph alone, we could wield rare relics left behind from the first age.

The Balrog once again roams free in the depths of Moria, unchallenged.
The Red Pass is all but lost in stories of old.
The armor of Fem has become but a legend lost in the desolation of Angmar.
Helchgam waits defiantly in Carn Dum, for a captain to claim his prize.

There will be no "Return of the King".
Lone stragglers alone will not see the ring returned to Mount Doom.
Tolkien, through his writings, has told us that the way to victory is through fellowship, and fellowship alone. Frodo could not have made it "solo" to Mount Doom, rather, he needed his fellowship throughout his entire journey.
Turbine has given us a solo game at this point. There really is no longer a need for a fellowship.

I long for the days of old. But my longing cries, along with many friends of old, go unanswered. They are lost in the barren world known as Middle Earth.

Very well said!

Now look at this from the Producer's Letter:

Episodic Content: We are currently in development on a new type of quest content that will roll out like an episodic TV show, a little at a time, as you follow a new friend across Middle-earth seeing familiar places in a new light.

A brand new, solo, Session Play gimmick that will cost them money to produce?!?!

No thank you.

To play devil's advocate...

The last thing these forums need is more Devil's Advocate vs Group Content.

Ironically, yes. The source material stands for the proposition that a fellowship ultimately doesn't work and is doomed to failure. :0

/facepalm

Look, those few of us left here are all fans of the professor's works. But do you actually *WANT* a financially successful game that stays in business, or what?

[Tuco]

No.

Its quite clear he's referring to the fact that Frodo was a) not alone on Mount Doom (he had Sam with him) and b) Frodo could not have even got to Mount Doom unless Aragorn and the remainder of the original Fellowship were busy kicking orc-butt at the Black Gate.

Frodo needed the actions of the Fellowship to enable him to reach Mount Doom, that those actions took place away from Frodo's immediate vicinity do not mean Frodo could have succeeded without them.

Frodo was in a Fellowship, they just weren't all in the same place at the same time.

All The Best

Mt. Doom is one of the places the whole "LotRO maps isomorphically into LotR" theme falls apart.

Frodo was no longer in the Fellowship -- the Fellowship broke when Tolkien said it broke; I'll grant that he was still in the "Friends of Gandalf" kinship. He was however in a duo and wouldn't have made it to the fire without Sam, but they botched the quest requirements - I think Tolkien says somewhere that part of Frodo's depression was because he felt he'd failed the part that was given to him. Unlike Bilbo and Sam, and like Isildur, when it came time to give up the Ring Frodo couldn't do it: "I have come, but I do not choose now to do what I came to do. I will not do this deed. The Ring is mine!" We don't have a very clean mechanism for a third party swooping in, grabbing the loot and trying to make off with it, and leaving us with the credit for quest completion.

Or do we? I suppose we could have a session play for the ending where we fight Frodo for the Ring, and win the whole game by munching off his finger and doing a swan dive into the lava. Hmm... maybe this should go into the Suggestions forum. I suspect a lot of us would consider, like Sam, becoming "[Tuco] the Strong, Hero of the Age, striding with a flaming sword across the darkened land..."

[siipperi]

They had nice raid of 9 people, Gandalf was one who started the raid but sadly lotro crashes and he never shows again....

Well, Frodo is clearly one of those cool kids and quited fellowship because he thinks all others are noobs and only joined to help his friend Gandalf, Sam follows him because he thinks same way, he isn't as skilled but proves himself useful in the end because of smart class choice.

After this merry and pippin gets hijacked to kinraid to do ToO and they leave the fellowship...

So we are left with 4... Boromir agrees to leave fellowship so Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli can do 3 man BB... Because Boromir is the only sane person and knows when it's time to quit lotro.... Before launch of RoR.

We are still stuck here and sadly our illuvatar has forgotten us, but I still have my fools hope.

[daadkey]

Ah, yes, the good old days, I remember them well. The elitism. The snobbery. The ignoring of the average player. No voice chat = No invite. Inspected head to toe then told "you don't measure up". And you groupie raiders wonder why the game transitioned to the way it is now. Well, Wonder no more. YOU made it this way.

[Mar-Evayave]

No, the fellowship never dwindled.

Gandalf's fall allowed him to come back as Gandalf the White, expell Saruman from the Order and rally Gondor to defeat Sauron at Minas Tirith and force the battle to the gates of Mordor, turning the enemy's eyes away so Sam, Gollum and Frodo could go up the side of the mountain. Of course Gandalf couldn't have accomplished that without:

Pippin and Merry who were captured by Orcs and brought to the Eves of Fangorn where they met Fangorn who in turn destroyed Isengard which trapped Saruman and put him in a position to be defeated by Gandalf the White, who would then go on to free Gondor to distract Sauron for Sam, Frodo and Gollum.

Aragorn, assisted by Gimili and Legolas, who chased Pippin and Merry, and in the process reunited with Gandalf the White, and then freed Rohan, which in turn would deliver Gondor at Minas Tirith, and went on to the black gate to distract Sauron for Frodo, Sam and Gollum.

The fellowship never dwindled, the physical distance between them grew, but they all acted as a team toward the same goal.

I know they all acted as a team, separated in Middle-earth though they were. But they were still a broken Fellowship. They were broken (ie: dwindled) into smaller bits. Little fellowships of 2 or 3, for the most part.

The last thing these forums need is more Devil's Advocate vs Group Content.

If that was an attempt to troll, it was really lame. I said "To play devil's advocate from the lore perspective..." IE: I was talking about the BOOKS, not the game or in-game group content. -.-

Mt. Doom is one of the places the whole "LotRO maps isomorphically into LotR" theme falls apart.

Frodo was no longer in the Fellowship -- the Fellowship broke when Tolkien said it broke; I'll grant that he was still in the "Friends of Gandalf" kinship. He was however in a duo and wouldn't have made it to the fire without Sam, but they botched the quest requirements - I think Tolkien says somewhere that part of Frodo's depression was because he felt he'd failed the part that was given to him. Unlike Bilbo and Sam, and like Isildur, when it came time to give up the Ring Frodo couldn't do it: "I have come, but I do not choose now to do what I came to do. I will not do this deed. The Ring is mine!" We don't have a very clean mechanism for a third party swooping in, grabbing the loot and trying to make off with it, and leaving us with the credit for quest completion.

Or do we? I suppose we could have a session play for the ending where we fight Frodo for the Ring, and win the whole game by munching off his finger and doing a swan dive into the lava. Hmm... maybe this should go into the Suggestions forum. I suspect a lot of us would consider, like Sam, becoming "[Tuco] the Strong, Hero of the Age, striding with a flaming sword across the darkened land..."

lol! That is hilarious! xD

[Tuco]

Ah, yes, the good old days, I remember them well. The elitism. The snobbery. The ignoring of the average player. No voice chat = No invite. Inspected head to toe then told "you don't measure up". And you groupie raiders wonder why the game transitioned to the way it is now. Well, Wonder no more. YOU made it this way.

Heh. Just yesterday I was seeing "2/6 for <something or other>. PST with anonymous OFF."

[xdjxzxde]

To play devil's advocate from the lore perspective... Frodo's fellowship dwindled down to a fellowship of two. xD That's why there is a chapter at the end of The Fellowship of the Ring that is called the Breaking of the Fellowship.

But apart from rare session plays we don't play as the Fellowship so all points regarding this are void. We play as side players, and there were vast groups of horseman and so on riding about. If you take LOTRO too literally as the role model for the game, then the only Hobbits outside the Shire during the journey were Frodo and friends so don't take it all too literally with lore here.