15.2 Player music

[Lolorndinfey]

Just wanted to thank Vyvyanne and Tybur for the immediate feedback and responses during the beta process. It is very much appreciated. Thank you.

Looking back at all the posts, I think in terms of the Beta BR process, it has been a great success compared to U15. Though saddened by the decision to delay to fix by U16, I can respect and show understanding in such a decision. It's easy to criticize. but this time around, I'd like to think we in the LotRO music community can hold our heads up high and say; We did our share of helping improve the music system. Fingers crossed for U16.

[Crowlady]

I would like to add my thanks to the team - both Turbine and Player based - for such a fine job. My 'out in the country' download speeds are so slow that I can barely get new Bullroarer clients up and running before the weekend is over, so I was unable to test over there. But I know and trust many posters here :-)

My bands are all in agreement with this decision, and we know our music can only be better with all your hard work and dedication to quality.

Rosamundi, member of The Chosen Few, The Rolling Kegs, and Brandywine n Biscuits (Laurelin)

[Gingiro]

Hi I'm a bit late to the party (personal stuff gets in the way) but as Allegretta Aleford, and part of the Traveling Bilberries I would also like to express my thanks for all the efforts to improve the music system which is of course one of the amazing things about LoTRO.

I am looking forward to U16

Ally

[Vyvyanne]

Music Friends! New update, please jump in and check it out

[robbie1435]

Music Friends! New update, please jump in and check it out

Not even an official beta test for an update and BR is live for a music test?

Vyvyanne, you have dedication! Keep up the good work!

[robbie1435]

Can the remaining volume tones be fixed as well?

[Emere]

Music Friends! New update, please jump in and check it out

Patching now and will post by tomorrow once I get a chance to go test
Its been said already but not enough, thank you all so very much for working so hard on this for us!

[Emere]

All in all a huge improvement over last testing. We still sadly, have notes missing but its not near as prevalent as before. There are still the balute (banjo lute string sounds ) notes needing fixed and other little sound anomalies. This are small things though. The big issue is still dropped notes and little sounds I hear which I could only describe as clicks and static scratches.
The positional loss of notes still exists as well, for example, if you stand next to the theorbo and the lute is on the other side of the band, you will lose more of the lute notes, and vice versa. Still a big improvement over last testing. What ever you guys did to fix the dropped notes seems to be heading in the right direction. I will try to be on Bullroarer tomorrow again for some finer testing and will post again should I have anything new to add
/begs for bunny cosmetic pets

[siipperi]

Not even an official beta test for an update and BR is live for a music test?

Vyvyanne, you have dedication! Keep up the good work!

Agreed, she have done great work so far and has been honest and clear on statements so far. Really liking new direction with new Producer.

I don't like however how implementing new music system have taken ages to develope, I seriously hope this doesn't take away from other parts of the game, like deciding that because music system was so costly do develop that we don't see new PvP map because of it.

[Lavs]

have just done some testing on the new Beta build, and agree with Fincin that there is quite an improvement from last build. While I was only testing with 4 characters (the same as most of my tests on last build), I played many of the same songs I had played last time and had barely a dropped note - not even sure those I did get might be related to the lute or lag. I'm hoping those banjo notes and and other specific notes with issues will still be worked on. Had some horrid thudding on the theorbo in one song, like more than just the string was being hit.need to test more to be specific about it (or to double check whether it has already been mentioned)

A thanks from me too to all those working hard to get this good for us

[SchorschiSchrumpf]

The task Turbine wanted to do is pretty much like the design of a midi wavetable - I still don't see the reason for changing the instruments, it was never explained.
I assume that there was some people unhappy with the sound of certain instruments, but the ones that were actually ok with it were never asked.

But given Turbines choice to do that: there is tools for that, there is documentation for that, and it doesn't take long, there is even free programs for that, so costs are not an excuse. From a rational point of view this was a fairly manageable task.

For some reason the developer/developers decided to reinvent the wheel there and fiddled around with it manually, at least that's how it looks to me - with results we could all hear. Actually it's somehow a failure of the management as well because they didn't stop the developer/developers from wasting time on this. A clear concept would have been very beneficial there.

The longer the fiddling around with the "new" music system lasts, the more clear it is how well designed the old system is - and knowing that there is still broken tones, it is obvious that the old system is still superior.
I don't want to transpose tunes to different keys just to avoid singular bad notes!

In my opinion it would have been the better choice for us and the cheaper choice for Turbine to just modify some pitches of the "off" instrument tones and we'd all been very happy, but I guess this is now gone too far to be stopped anymore.

[Herwegur]

The longer the fiddling around with the "new" music system lasts, the more clear it is how well designed the old system is - and knowing that there is still broken tones, it is obvious that the old system is still superior.
I don't want to transpose tunes to different keys just to avoid singular bad notes!

Wholly agreed, exactly what I was thinking. Original system worked and works well, abc transcribers made it work and current abc songs reflect it. Not understanding why this needs to be tampered with, especially when said tampering leaves much to be desired. It creates more inconvenience than it resolves, with presence of notes still broken in this beta build, still inferior to the original live system that has been successfully utilized for years.

[Emere]

The longer the fiddling around with the "new" music system lasts, the more clear it is how well designed the old system is - and knowing that there is still broken tones, it is obvious that the old system is still superior.
I don't want to transpose tunes to different keys just to avoid singular bad notes!

In my opinion it would have been the better choice for us and the cheaper choice for Turbine to just modify some pitches of the "off" instrument tones and we'd all been very happy, but I guess this is now gone too far to be stopped anymore.

That was my original thought as well Bruzo. I would have been completely happy with just the off notes tuned and the missing notes from the clarinet and horn replaced. Just fixing those issues would have been really nice to get. However, if they really do wish to upgrade things, and are willing to continue to work with us on that goal until its done right, then I am all for it as well. The new horns sound really awesome. Right now that is the current strong point in all of this to me as the difference in how the horns sound really is amazing.
After the tuning of the sour notes, I would of opted for the range on the pibgorn to be fixed as its still about 3 times the range of the other instruments and for anyone standing near the end of the range of the bands music, they will hear more of it than the rest of the instruments. Then I would of liked to see something similar to a banjo added, and maybe a french horn sound or saxophone sounding instrument and couple of violin style instruments.
All said and done, I am happy to keep testing and will continue to try and help as long as I can and work towards a better system since that is the goal, and as long as its a goal that can be reached.
It feels good to be a part of something like this, just don't lose heart and have faith my friend, they made us a great system once already, perhaps we will get something more epic in the end.

Last but not least...comstic bunny pets ftw!

[Mellana]

Today I did some tests , too.

I couldn't find a lost-notes-problem anymore, ecxept one situation:
playing a rather fast part on the flute.
All other instruments did the selected parts without droping notes, only the flute skipped some of them (lazy thing).
I had a very nice talk to a member of the QA staff who listened to me and encouraged me to fill a /bug form and add an .abc file.

... The big issue is still dropped notes and little sounds I hear which I could only describe as clicks and static scratches. ...

Funny thing is: I always thought this weird-note-thing was just my problem, maybe because of my annoying headset.
Just today I learned that other people know it, too

I'm talking about loud short sounds occuring randomly while I play music. You can even tell which of the playing instruments caused it, though they sound very distorted.
I know them already from live, playing wind instruments. Now on BR they also happen playing lute and theorbo. And they do NOT happen playing harps - probably because they got back their old sound.
They sound like a system overload for a moment, but I monitor my system, and usually I'm nowhere near an overload (while sometimes my system IS on the edge and they don't occur). *shrugs*

Anyone else experiencing this who has a clue?


New topic: what do you think of a concert for all our nice devs and staff members before the new system goes live?
Something like: everybody who wants to join plays a song to say thank you.

I would love to bring some more caribbean feeling to bullroarer *waves*

Mel (Smila from HakunaMatata)

PS: Oh, sorry Fin, I forgot to say hello ... *big hug*

[Lavs]

Smila, so you get that too??? I get those random loud short sounds too... usually horn or bagpipes, but I will also get random, full volume water sounds, if in a town I might get related sounds (horses passing by, background talking, other actions), often it only starts after an alt will go past something that creates that sound - and I of course have their volume down (and I have those volumes low with player music & voice at full). I thought it was just me & my aging computer. What I am currently hearing from the lute on BR I couldn't describe as the same (what I have been describing as choppiness), it is predictable with fast chords. It follows the notes a bit like an echo but not every single note/chord through fast sections. What ever they have done to improve the dropped note issue has also improved this for me, but I still get it a lot to render some songs a horrible experience... but since I thought it was just me I wasn't expecting this to get fixed though it does seem to be related to other issues. Maybe it is time to /bug it

[SpiritusLOTRO]

Regarding 11FEB15 15.2 beta build (Version 1503.0056.1531.8297)

Music Friends! New update, please jump in and check it out

Thanks for the quick turn around. As usual, I'm restricting my detailed comments to tone and timbre as others are far more capable of speaking to the most pressing and singularly technical issue of note dropping.

Inter-Instrument Dynamic ("Volume") Balance: I don't have any mathematical data on this, but to my trained ear this build's dynamic balance between the instruments is good enough for a live push. And, while that might sound luke-warm, my meaning is they are balanced well enough that the vast majority of listeners will not be able to discern the slight variations. I would go so far as saying all the instruments are baselined within the same musical dynamic range (e.g. - mezzo-forte). Considering how timbre differences between the instruments can cause quite the challenge in this arena (e.g. - "soft" bagpipes will always "stand-out" when played next to a "loud" harp), this is a job well done. Kudos.

Intra-Instrument Timbre Balance: So, here's where work still needs to be done. Most of the timbre discrepancies remain at various degrees of bothersomeness, however a few have been fixed by whatever means, so they have been excluded. Again, I'm only picking out the tones that are generally noticeable to most ears. Here is the full unabridged list:

Clarinet:
F3 -- Has a "loose reed" sound that makes it stand out from the other notes. It is identified by a noticeable buzzing vibration on the attack of the note.
A#4 - Has a very noticeable metallic "trumpet-like" timbre that sustains throughout the note

Flute:
C2 -- Has a late attack compared to other notes. Meaning, the breath pushed across the lip plate is more gradual in reaching the desired force. This can either cause a note to sound "late" in the rhythm, or depending on the note length, not sound at all, or sound very soft/cut off compared to the other notes.
D2 -- Noticeably breathy compared to the other notes
B2 -- Same as Flute D2
C#3 -- Same as Flute D2
F3 -- Has a very hard attack compared to other notes. Meaning, the breath is pushed out very forcefully across the lip plate before settling into the desired force. This note plays very much like a note with a permanent "accent" and can make it undesirably stand out in a piece.
C#4 -- Has a late attack. See Flute C2.
D#4 -- Seems to be about ~15% softer dynamically compared to the other notes.
E4 -- Has a late attack. See Flute C2.
A#4 -- Same as Flute F3


Horn:
C#2 -- Has a noticeably "buzzy" timbre compared to the other notes. This timbre aberration is sustained throughout the duration of the note sample.
C#3 -- A slight, but noticeable "buzzy" timbre as if someone played a note on a saxophone with a slightly hard attack. Unlike Horn C#2, this is very short and does not sustain throughout the note.
D4 -- A slight, but noticable "buzzy" timbre. Similar to Horn C#3.

Bagpipe:
Again, I hear no glaring single note timbre issues with the bagpipes. However, I am now am hearing a very noticeable "click" on most of the notes when the tone is stopped mid sample and not just on rapid passages. It is clearly not a sample issue and anyone who has worked around audio editing has dealt with this before. I would normally chalk it up to my output hardware, but since several others have mentioned hearing similar issues, I thought it worth bringing it up. It very noticeably disrupts most any song with bagpipes and should be near the top of the list of these issues.

Lute:
D#2 -- Has a noticeably "metallic" sound compared to the other notes, as if it was picked by a fingernail or pick instead of the finger.
D#3 -- Same as Lute D#2. Slightly less pronounced.
B3 -- Same as Lute D#2. Very pronounced.
B4 -- Same as Lute D#2, but also has an odd, off-tune reverb. Difficult to describe, but immediately recognizable once heard.
*Sidenote: I want to clarify to the reader-at-large, this is an attempt to balance within the overall timbre of the new sample. I am aware that the new sample has changed to an overall sharper, more "lute-like" sound. Suggestion: I know this isn't going to happen, but since the Lyre model is already in game and uses the same animations as the harp, is there some way to satisfy both this new sample and the old lute sample through the introduction of the Lyre? Just a spitball.

Harp:
*EDIT: I'm still unclear if the old samples can be adjusted. If not, then ignore. If so, then the following:
All notes -- This might be an aberration on my end, but it seems like all the notes on the harp have a slightly delayed attack compared to other instruments. Meaning, there is a small delay between prompting a note and the actual beginning of the tone; as if the sample itself has a tiny pause built in. I would need more confirmation from others before considering this an actual issue.
D#2 -- Has a slight "metallic" sound compared to the other notes, as if it was picked by a fingernail instead of the finger.
C#3 -- Same as Harp D#2.
F3 -- Same as Harp D#2.
G3 - Same as Harp D#2.
G#3 -- Same as Harp D#2, but more pronounced.

Theorbo:
E2 -- This note alone is causing my audio output to peak on the bass, which leaves me to believe that the bass is turned up too much on this note in the sample itself, rather than an issue with my card or output devices.
C#3 -- Too much pitch shift on the reverb. Meaning the "wavy" sound a plucked string gives off after played is unnaturally broad -- almost as if this specific note has a finger vibrato applied, rather than just its natural vibrato.
B3 -- Extremely heavy "metallic" sound on this note compared to others. Very out of place and sounds more like a low lute note than a mid-range theorbo note. A must fix.
C4 - Tone is "cut off." The sustain is noticeably short compared to the other notes and the tone ends abruptly rather than the natural fade the others exhibit.
C#4 -- Same as Theorbo C#3, more pronounced.
D#4 -- Same as Theorbo C#3.
E4 -- Same as Theorbo C#3.
A4 -- Has the pitch shift reverb issue as in Theorbo C#3, but also has a "hard attack" sound on the pluck that is noticeably different than the timbre on the attack of the other notes.
A#4 -- Has both of the issues of Theorbo A4.
C5 -- Has both of the issues of Theorbo A4.

Pibgorn:
No changes from last beta build. Instead of identifying specifically the issue with each note, I'm just going to use notes C2 - G#2 as my timbre base and list the notes that are off from that:
A2, A#2, B2, C3, G#3, A3, A#3, B3, C4, A4, A#4, B4

Drums, Cowbell, Moor Cowbell:
Again, nothing to note here. Good job.

[Mellana]

... /bug it

I did. Could have mentioned that

Did some more testing concerning those nasty sounds.
My experince after about an hour of testing is: Those sounds are more likely to happen

- the more instruments you use (but found it playing solo, too - depends on the song).
- using a lute or a theorbo. With wind instruments it happens, too, but much less. Doesn't happen only using harps.
- playing exactly the same on different instruments. Worse, if you use the same instruments playing the same.
- playing fast pieces e.g. with many sixteenth notes (is it the right word?) or faster, worse if they are within chords.

In the moment those sounds appear I seem to lose notes, too.
Listening to two toons playing the same, one on my left, the other on my right side should be the same for both - the sound should be "heard" in the middle.
And I don't.
I just played a very fast piece on two lutes standing in the middle and very often I just heard one of them, the other being "interrupted" very often, "pausing" about half of the time. This loss happened more often than the sound itself. And it was mostly the same lute losing notes, even as I turned around to hear it from the other side.
Doing the same with two harps was as I expected: sound heard in the middle, no loss.
You can find the song here: http://s1.zetaboards.com/Songbook_of...opic/938123/1/ (*bows* to Macalaure - great song!)

Settings: Fields outside Bree, three toons in a band, standing next to each other with some distance to each other.
Only main (in the mid) has sound activated, with the others master vol is set to 0, listening via headphones.
Multiboxing on one machine that usually stands 6 accounts at a time.

Hope this helps!
*bows*

Mel (Smila of HakunaMatata)

PS: thank you very much, Spiritus, for your detailed testing!
I fully agree and am very glad I don't have to find out the names of those notes disturbing me the same as you *hugs*

2nd PS: Alright, I brought the whole band online (6 musicians) and tested some stuff I like very much: my Buena Vista Social Club songs for 5-6 players. And I almost cried.
Most of them have 2 lutes and a theorbo, some even 3 lutes plus theorbo (additionally a harp and/or flute and drums).

They are broken.

Especially those with 3 lutes and theorbo sound like an ill-tuned radio (yes, I am old enough to know radios ) with another station flashing in, much louder than my song. Replacing the lutes by harps, keeping only theorbo improves the situation, but only by replacing the theorbo, too, I can avoid those annoying sounds.

Songs can be found here: http://www.aontacht.net/forum/viewto...=15&t=368#p913 (attachment: BVSC.zip)

Do I have to mention: all of them work on live?

A very sad
Mel

Last edit: And its not me and my multiboxing. Padraic was very patient and listened to me for a rather long time. He heard the same strange noise as me.
*sighs*
There is work to be done, I'm afraid.

[Emere]

Okay.....
I was wrong. I thought the cut out was less this time but went back and tested on Bullroarer today with some help.
Yesterday I was standing right in front of the band testing with six accounts and I played six part songs so I didn't get to move around.
Today, I had help with Orladan and his alt from Bright Star band. The cut out is still there and in a big way.
We tested several songs and it happened on every song we tested. We did discover that its directly related to position and distance. For example, on John Henry song which is six parts, I lined the band up so it was Theorbo, Lute 1, Lute 2, Lute 3, Harp, Bagpipe. If you stood on the or near the Theorbo side, you would lose notes from the bagpipe side and vice versa.
With the Help of Smila from HakunaMatata band, we also figured out that the harp doesn't seem to drop notes when played on two characters synced, but does when played on two lutes. It was a solo file she was using as an example and was very evident the notes were dropping on the lutes. Again it seemed mostly positional but even standing in the middle, between the two lutes, you could still hear it dropping on occasion.
Will /bug it now and if anyone wishes to schedule some testing with my alts, get with me and we will figure out a time and test a few files.
It would be nice if we could test some songs with the Dev's so they could walk around and hear what we are talking about.

P.S. Looked for bunny pets, didn't see any. I'm sad.

[Orlor]

Just got back from testing the music and sorry, I see no improvement. We still get lost notes as you travel around the band.

Mellana was kind enough to replicate her experiment for us and it is true. She played a song on two lute spread widely apart. Each lute were playing the same solo song. If you stood in the middle, one lute would play the song with no lost notes and the other would play the song while dropping 50% of the notes. *Note that the song started out slowly and then changed tempo to a fast pace* It was when the song picked up that you started to lose notes. She then played the same song on two harps. Both harps played all the notes through out the whole song. Since the harps were reverted back to the old samples, it looks like the culprit is the new samples.

I was wondering if it would be possible for us to arrange a meeting with one of the developers over on Bullroarer and let us demonstrate to him what it is that we are experiencing.

[Mellana]

I am in for scheduled testing, too.
Got 6 toons with a wide variety of songs.

Hope we can find a way to keep the improvements of the new system and erase the problems!

Big hug to Miss Fin and Orladan!

And bunnies for all ...

[Emere]

I added in my bug report that I would be willing to meet with the dev's on bullroarer to play for them so they can be free to move around the band and witness what we experienced today. I figure the more help we can offer, the better.

~bunnyhugs~ Mellana

[Thurallor]

I think two youtube videos of the same song, one recorded on live and the other on bullroarer, would probably suffice to demonstrate the problems for the devs.

[Emere]

I think two youtube videos of the same song, one recorded on live and the other on bullroarer, would probably suffice to demonstrate the problems for the devs.

Perhaps, but I have to rely on others to record, I cannot run my character plus five alts and record too.
Besides, I'm free at almost any given time so its not as if I would be going out of my way, they just need to let me know when they would want to do it.

[Lavs]

I did. Could have mentioned that

Actually I was talking about myself there, I had got the impression that you did bug it. I've just never bothered in the past as I thought it was just me.

Will hop on & do some testing now. I know that playing lute parts with a harp eleiminated the wierd sounds last time, looks like that is the case again

[Lavs]

last night I had thought I would be identifying the notes with odd sounds tonight, but after reading here I thought I would instead use different instruments and try some solos as duos, playing with distance. That was certainly interesting.

First song I did was Anji - still plays fine on harp (surprise surprise, since that is the live harp), lute gets the "choppy" stuff happening right from the start, on theorbo there's also some wierd stuff happening but what I would probably describe as clicks.

To really put things through their paces I then did The Hunt which is pretty rapid fire for a lot of the song with a less intense section in the middle. My notes for playing this on the lute on BR are "truly horrid". Far worse than the pibgorn at it's worst. There was more "chop" than notes, though slightly more listenable through the more sedate section. Playing it as a duet with harp & different wind instruments, and standing quite far apart, also got interesting results. With harp & clarinet I got some minor choppiness, but as you move away from the clarinet and the note volume drops, the volume of the choppiness doesn't change. I experienced exactly the same thing swapping the clarinet to flute, bagpipes and horn (somehow, I forgot to try the pibgorn). So at a distance all you hear is the bad stuff... though the bagpipe seemed as clipped as ever up close, and the horn was worse than the clarinet or flute. And all through this the harp was not generating odd sounds and I didn't notice dropped notes as such (but at times the choppiness replaced notes, so it was noise rather than note).

I didn't play these two songs last beta round, so I can't say that whatever was done to try and fix the dropped notes has improved them or not. Last night I thought there was great improvement but I can't imagine it possible for The Hunt to sound worse. Next time I log in will move my characters to outside Bree and see if I can catch others testing and have a listen & compare