15.2 Player music

[Emere]

Emere and her band, I played 4 part and another 3 part band. We played quite a bit of different music in turns so we could listen to each other and the clicks & pops were everywhere. Also the lute has a very tinny sound. We shall continue to test and hope for the best.

The other band is the Harlequins. Lolorndifney's band.

...btw...I'm on test server now if anyone wants to join me there.

[DarthCeltics]

As suggested, I attempted to play some of the submitted songs on Live servers. Running three clients I was hearing snaps/pops similar to the ones that players have been hearing on Bullroarer. When you play songs with multiple parts on Live, do you often run many clients at once (as you have been on Bullroarer)? Or do you have different people playing those parts and you only have one client running?

As far as the theorbo being out of tune, I'm not hearing that after playing through several submitted songs as well as chromatic scales using specific instrument pairings. Can you please be more specific with which notes on the theorbo you're hearing that sound out of tune?

[Emere]

As suggested, I attempted to play some of the submitted songs on Live servers. Running three clients I was hearing snaps/pops similar to the ones that players have been hearing on Bullroarer. When you play songs with multiple parts on Live, do you often run many clients at once (as you have been on Bullroarer)? Or do you have different people playing those parts and you only have one client running?

As far as the theorbo being out of tune, I'm not hearing that after playing through several submitted songs as well as chromatic scales using specific instrument pairings. Can you please be more specific with which notes on the theorbo you're hearing that sound out of tune?

Normally, I only hear the pops when I actually have the window up for any of the alts I run. Normally I run anywhere from 3-6 alts during a show. If I am queuing up a part on one of the alts while a song is playing, I will hear the noises on occasion, but rare if never while my main account window is up, which is the one with the volume turned on.
As for the theorbo being out of tune on a certain note, I cannot say. I did guess that it was either theo, lute, or harp that was the cause of the sour note but I could have missed something. I know it was bad somewhere in the song but wasn't able to narrow it down to which instrument was causing it so I basically took a guess. I will go back and see if I can figure it out since I am on the test server right now.

[Emere]

As suggested, I attempted to play some of the submitted songs on Live servers. Running three clients I was hearing snaps/pops similar to the ones that players have been hearing on Bullroarer. When you play songs with multiple parts on Live, do you often run many clients at once (as you have been on Bullroarer)? Or do you have different people playing those parts and you only have one client running?

As far as the theorbo being out of tune, I'm not hearing that after playing through several submitted songs as well as chromatic scales using specific instrument pairings. Can you please be more specific with which notes on the theorbo you're hearing that sound out of tune?

Okay, I pulled the entire band back online and tested the song several times. I was unable to recreated the bad note we heard yesterday. I don't know if it was a lagged note from one of the other bands which will often happen if someone moves while playing a song and then queues another song, or if someone might have accidentally hit a key on the keyboard to make a note play during my song, or if I am just losing my mind...
None the less, I am sorry I wasted your time on it. I will be sure to double and triple check any more bugs I report to avoid this in the future.

(added information) I have run 6 total accounts on many occasions and rarely if ever hear a pop, however....I have been hearing it much more running 8 accounts on bullroarer and that is something I've not done yet live on Landroval so later today I will do that as well and post my findings. I would trust Lolorndifney on what she reported though, she said she is hearing it often and using three alts, something that she doesn't suffer on live from what she told me. I know she plays often with three alts on live so if she says its happening more on test server, I would think she is correct.

[Lolorndinfey]

Play Love Comes Quickly. It has a repeated run on the bad note. One of these nights theorbo solo. Live vs BR. try playing it with just the theorbo and drums to isolate.

[frickinmuck]

I'll not debate it here, but I feel I know the difference between pushing volume and dynamic balance. And I admit I do sometimes push volume, but that is in context of the balance. In the /live/ version of the music system, the flute and lute cannot be trusted to carry melody. If you are going to /exclusively/ create a song with only /one/ instrument holding the melody in a large ensemble /on live/ it better be a bagpipe or a clarinet. Otherwise it'll be mushed in the other sounds. From what I've tested with the dynamics on the most recent beta releases, the balance is quite good. Now, it's /bad/ if you use files you've created for live. No argument there.

The issue is do we want good balance between the instruments going forward, or have bad balance so we don't have to adjust past files? That's a hard thing to answer. Personally, if all the off-timbre notes are fixed and the balance is good, then I'm willing to adjust things to a new system so it can be awesome going forward and easier to insert new instruments to that new dynamic baseline.

Couldn't agree more. I guess it comes down to personal preference, but I hope we can respect each other's approaches and musicality. Everyone has a different take on things, and wants their own sound. I don't envy the Turbine team at all, having to parse these different views and come up with final decisions that will most certainly disappoint some.

If all songs and all parts were played at a constant dynamic level (volume), then this would work perfectly. The issue is if you want a /melody/ that drops low, then climbs high, you must double or even triple /on live/, depending on the instrument, because the /live/ balance is not proper. And so by having everything at the /same/ dynamic level, you can better drop the supporting instruments down and boost the melody instruments without much worry.

And because of timbre, you may still have to double some instruments to carry melody. But that also goes back into the samples.

This is all very complicated. And I think largely due to the very slight dynamic range currently allowed in game in both live and beta. if +fff+ was /truly/ +fff+ and +ppp+ was /truly/ +ppp+, we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.

This is especially problematic with electronic music, I've found. It can be very difficult to get a really solid, full sound with a rich dynamic range, even with good source midis. That's part of the problem with these decisions as a whole - there is such a broad variety of music out there, and everyone has their own personal flair they're trying to bring, that a system that satisfies some people will inevitably disappoint others.

[Emere]

Well, I spent four hours on Bullroarer today. Would have been nice to see more people able to come out and test. I sent my opinions and concerns in on a bug report and will post later once I log and test all 8 accounts on live server to see if I am getting the static pops we are hearing on Bullroarer.

I am pleading with the developers to allow us to keep the old lute as it is on live along with the addition of the new lute once it goes live. I think we will lose much if we lose the live version lute. Nothing on test server can give the same brightness that it has provided for many of the different styles of music. Its more versatile than the new lute is going to be in my opinion.

Harp seems okay but I cannot say if it will go from a nice quiet build to a loud crescendo since most of my songs I have the volume pumped on the harp because of how quiet it is on live. I didn't get time to test it as I would have liked and will do so next build.

I still think the flute has too much of a breath sound on some of the notes which makes it more annoying than it should be but overall it, if that is removed or reduced it will be very nice.

I didn't get to test the clarinet as much as I would of liked, but for what I did get to test, my only complaint is it no longer works well with the flute when used to achieve a unique sound I have come to rely on for many of my melodies. Unless some small miracle happens somewhere down the line, more than a handful of my songs will be lessened when we lose the old clarinet and flute but such is life and I will learn to live with it I suppose. If anyone wants to know what I am talking about, just ask me in game on Landroval and I will boot up the alts and play a few songs for you.

The horn needs a bit more volume I think but the samples for it are really the high point in all of this for me. I love the new horn.

The theorbo sounds a bit muddy on the low end and pingy on the high end and overall the volumes don't seem to match up well on it. I think it will be very nice once the last few bugs are worked out.

The bagpipes seems a bit too low in volume and I am still hearing a small clicking when the notes first start up. Not as smooth as I would like but they are not bad either in my opinion other than the lowered volume.

Drums....
Let me first say that I split my cymbal sounds from the drums. I do this to lower the cymbals (shakers) down to +ppp+ or +pp+ to make them blend with the drums. They are much to loud on the test server and need lowered. They were quite overbearing on every one of my songs I tested today.
Cowbells, both of them, sound okay to me.

Back to the lute...
It no longer blends well with the harp and needs much work. Volume is still too loud in my opinion as you just cannot get a nice quiet build to crescendo with it on live. Its loud to start and gets nothing but louder. This is the one instrument that needs the most work on the test server I believe, and I wish the developers all the luck in the word with it as its been a problem child all along.

Overall I could have spent another few hours testing some smaller things but Bullroarer was closing down so I will wait until the next build to address some more solo's to see how well they work.

Final thoughts:
Let us keep the old lute no matter what and uh...oh yeah...bunny cosmetic pets!

[Emere]

As suggested, I attempted to play some of the submitted songs on Live servers. Running three clients I was hearing snaps/pops similar to the ones that players have been hearing on Bullroarer. When you play songs with multiple parts on Live, do you often run many clients at once (as you have been on Bullroarer)? Or do you have different people playing those parts and you only have one client running?

Okay, I went onto Landroval with 8 accounts up and running. Played 18 songs, all 8 part songs. Not a single snap crackle or pop.

[Gunslinger53]

Fincin & i tested yesterday. i normally play four accounts (fewer or none if members of my band are available). I have experienced no clicks/pops on the live server.

This was recorded a week ago on the live server with four accounts: (My first time using Shadowplay to record) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pn5qLZmsycA

This was recorded yesterday on Bullroarer with the same four accounts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iz2gUDh28ZQ

Also when playing solo classical spanish guitar music the difference between the lute on live and the new lute is quite apparent. The new lute doesn't do the music justice. That being said, I totally agree with Fincin to keep the old lute and give us the new lute as a separate instrument. The new lute is perfect for some types of music and not very good for most others.

i do know the devs are working hard to give us a music system we can be proud of. I applaud them for their efforts.

[Swagman]

As suggested, I attempted to play some of the submitted songs on Live servers. Running three clients I was hearing snaps/pops similar to the ones that players have been hearing on Bullroarer. When you play songs with multiple parts on Live, do you often run many clients at once (as you have been on Bullroarer)? Or do you have different people playing those parts and you only have one client running?

As far as the theorbo being out of tune, I'm not hearing that after playing through several submitted songs as well as chromatic scales using specific instrument pairings. Can you please be more specific with which notes on the theorbo you're hearing that sound out of tune?

I Orly and I posted earlier Orly ran theorbo and lute thru the scales playing one note at a time and it was the 12th note on the scale which Orly says is B4. It was off on both theorbo and lute.

[Elwenwing]

After some testing yesterday on Bullroarer, and after having concerns about the new lute sound in previous test builds, I still feel the new lute does not sound very nice.

I personally feel most (if not all) of the music (both classical as well as more modern) I played on the new lute on Bullroarer does not sound as well as it does on the old lute.

I know this is just my personal opinion, but from what I read here on the forum it seems more people feel that way.

The idea has been put forth to keep both lute sounds in the new music system.

Would this be something that is viable? *looks at the devs*

If it is that would be great, as it would please both those who prefer the old lute, as well as those who prefer the new lute sound. (*smiles* You could give the Hobbits their old giant lute back with the old lute sound!)

Also it would take away almost all my worries about the new music system.

One of the bands I enjoy playing in, mainly plays (rock) music without the use of wind instruments.

Us bandmembers of that band have been feeling like we have been playing on borrowed time ever since the new lute sound was introduced in the test builds, and dread the day the new lute sounds goes live exclusively.

On the other hand, the bands I play in who use all instruments in their music are much more optimistic about the new instrument sounds.

As far as instrument volumes on Bullroarer, I feel like they have been balanced well enough for the last couple of builds!

They all seem to have been builds where volume levels of the different instruments are well within the working limits desired by people who make abc's.

Eventually some tweaking of old abc files will probably be required, but I feel the last builds on Bulroarer sounded well enough even without tweaking the abc's!

[Thurallor]

This was recorded yesterday on Bullroarer with the same four accounts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iz2gUDh28ZQ

Thanks for making the video.

I didn't hear anything amiss until 1:33. Is that correct?

In the anomalies I heard, it seemed that the volume of one of the lutes was greatly increased, for maybe 10-20 ms, and then went back to normal.

I have no idea of all of the variables that determine the volume (gain) at any given time, but it seems that there may be a race condition in that logic.

[frickinmuck]

This was recorded yesterday on Bullroarer with the same four accounts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iz2gUDh28ZQ

So that's what the snap/pop sounds like. Yeah, not pretty.

I really wish I could have gotten in and done some testing yesterday. Any word on when the next build will be available?

[Emere]

After some testing yesterday on Bullroarer, and after having concerns about the new lute sound in previous test builds, I still feel the new lute does not sound very nice.

I personally feel most (if not all) of the music (both classical as well as more modern) I played on the new lute on Bullroarer does not sound as well as it does on the old lute.

I know this is just my personal opinion, but from what I read here on the forum it seems more people feel that way.

The idea has been put forth to keep both lute sounds in the new music system.

Would this be something that is viable? *looks at the devs*

If it is that would be great, as it would please both those who prefer the old lute, as well as those who prefer the new lute sound. (*smiles* You could give the Hobbits their old giant lute back with the old lute sound!)

Also it would take away almost all my worries about the new music system.

One of the bands I enjoy playing in, mainly plays (rock) music without the use of wind instruments.

Us bandmembers of that band have been feeling like we have been playing on borrowed time ever since the new lute sound was introduced in the test builds, and dread the day the new lute sounds goes live exclusively.

On the other hand, the bands I play in who use all instruments in their music are much more optimistic about the new instrument sounds.

As far as instrument volumes on Bullroarer, I feel like they have been balanced well enough for the last couple of builds!

They all seem to have been builds where volume levels of the different instruments are well within the working limits desired by people who make abc's.

Eventually some tweaking of old abc files will probably be required, but I feel the last builds on Bulroarer sounded well enough even without tweaking the abc's!

I completely agree with this except for the volumes. The new lute just does not have the ability to play a nice quiet sound. I tested my lute solo of Battle of Evermore by Led Zeppelin which starts out extremely quiet and builds as it plays from +ppp+ to +mf+. The new volumes on the lute just do not reflect appropriate volumes for soft build ups like that. It starts out loud and gets louder. I said this before in earlier posts and cannot stress it enough.
I am extremely hopeful we are allowed to keep our old lute. I am very fond of it and you are correct, it will hurt many bands and songs if we lose it completely. The new lute is just no substitute for the live version lute and just doesn't have the quality needed to cover many piano pieces such as ragtime music, or a clean electric guitar for rock in my opinion.

[Lolorndinfey]

I may back up DarthCeltic's claim he heard snap-pops on Live. It's hard to say if it is the same cause on BR, as these were not heavy songs that would generate the same type of snap-pops on BR when heavy songs are played.

Harlequins tours multiple servers. We just finished our rounds for Saturday. It's more like a crackle. Load up an overseas web site, and you can hear it. Some type of audio priority or bandwidth sorting that interfers with the audio. This occurs on non-heavy songs on live, and does not appear to be affected by how big an audio load the multi-part song has.

My suspicion is now on akamai. Is it interferring with game audio?

If not that, then is there a tracking utility used by Turbine for keeping statistics? Something invisible to the user? Internal traffic not easily tracked by performance monitor? Like when upload/download traffic accessing a slow load web site?

You know the clientlauncher, how it caches game logic? Is that part of the problem? Sometimes it would bring up the ToS and CoC 'accept' window, and sometimes not. is this a related issue?

I realize QA does not have to answer, but it certainly merits their attention.

QA already has my evaluations on lute volume. All instrument evaluation even cowbell. It's up to them to decide if they want to increase lute volumes or not vs live.

[Thurallor]

We just finished our rounds for Saturday. It's more like a crackle. Load up an overseas web site, and you can hear it. Some type of audio priority or bandwidth sorting that interfers with the audio. This occurs on non-heavy songs on live, and does not appear to be affected by how big an audio load the multi-part song has.

Are you sure this isn't just a problem with your sound card? I never hear that when viewing videos on an overseas website.

And in the case of LOTRO, the audio data isn't actually streamed to you from the server. The server just sends the notes (probably in something similar to .abc format) to your machine, and your machine synthesizes the notes and mixes them together. So I wouldn't expect the same behavior between LOTRO and audio streaming web sites.

[Lolorndinfey]

Are you sure this isn't just a problem with your sound card? I never hear that when viewing videos on an overseas website.

I can't remember the origins of the phrase, "You look, but you do not see. You see, but you do not comprehend" comes to mind. The fault is partly to blame with the story teller. Let me try it another way.

My internet bandwidth is 50Mbps down, 10Mbps up.

cpu is intel i7 quad core @2GHz

gpu is Radeon HD 6770M

sound device is DFX Audio Enhancer 11.1

play a long song.

launch one client. access a web site, preferrably one that is overseas with lots of ads, audio component.
launch two clients. access a web site
...
launch 8 clients. access a web site

What you're saying is you've never heard interruptions, snap-pop, or crackle.

Is this true?

[Mistmorn]

Here is my one and only suggestion - keep both the old and the new instruments. Let the players use them in a live situation with their songs to see how it all sounds.

[Thurallor]

launch 8 clients. access a web site

What you're saying is you've never heard interruptions, snap-pop, or crackle.

I guess I only rarely launch more than one thing that has sound, because I can only listen to one thing at a time. And when I do, it's by accident.

I have heard interruptions in audio streams before (e.g. when my internet bandwidth was exceeded, or my CPU was busy doing other things). What you describe as "snap-pop" and "crackle" may just be short interruptions. When you instantaneously cut an audio stream in or out you will hear a "pop".

[Emere]

I am curious. With update 16 supposedly coming out in April, whats the word with the music update?
I would hate to see it pushed through with so many problems and time is getting short. My concern is the upcoming music events.
Currently I am planing on holding Day on the Greenfields in the second week of May. It will be difficult if everyone has to redo or adjust their songs only a few weeks before the event, and then shortly after Weatherstock will be coming.
I would appreciate a blue name response to this

[Keli]

For U16, according to Frelorn "end of April ish" which I guess will give you a problem

Regarding Weatherstock (someone mentioned earlier) I can't give you the date but we have factored this stuff in and it will be held later than usual.

[Emere]

Aye, I know its slated for April-ish, but the music upgrade isn't ready yet, its getting close but still very in need of fixing before it goes live. If it goes live as is, its going to put a huge damper on things. That is why I am asking for a blue name response. I fear putting several weeks into planning and scheduling bands just to have to cancel at the last minute because they do push the new music system through.

[Erethal]

Aye, I know its slated for April-ish, but the music upgrade isn't ready yet, its getting close but still very in need of fixing before it goes live. If it goes live as is, its going to put a huge damper on things. That is why I am asking for a blue name response. I fear putting several weeks into planning and scheduling bands just to have to cancel at the last minute because they do push the new music system through.

And have the "blue names" given you any reason not to trust their judgment? It seems to me that they have been extremely diligent listening to the players' feedback and working to make the system the best it can be, and trying to find the best solutions for everyone. This process has gone far longer than I would have ever expected, and I've been very impressed with the dev team's persistence in making it right. The devs are very aware of the issues with the system, largely thanks to you, among others. Don't you think they're doing their best to get them resolved? With all the issues that have surfaced (and more surfacing even as others are resolved), I can't imagine it would be easy to form a timeline. Isn't it enough to know that they're doing as much as they can? I'm sure this "can of worms" that has been opened put a bit of a damper on their efforts too, don't you suppose?

It also seems that Keli did give you helpful information regarding your concerns about Weatherstock, which you indifferently brushed off. Being delayed, that certainly buys the devs more time to refine the system, does it not? With the update still at least a month and a half away, that gives them plenty more time to make more fixes, find any newly-surfaced issues, and from there decide if it's in a state to be released to live.

[Emere]

And have the "blue names" given you any reason not to trust their judgment? It seems to me that they have been extremely diligent listening to the players' feedback and working to make the system the best it can be, and trying to find the best solutions for everyone. This process has gone far longer than I would have ever expected, and I've been very impressed with the dev team's persistence in making it right. The devs are very aware of the issues with the system, largely thanks to you, among others. Don't you think they're doing their best to get them resolved? With all the issues that have surfaced (and more surfacing even as others are resolved), I can't imagine it would be easy to form a timeline. Isn't it enough to know that they're doing as much as they can? I'm sure this "can of worms" that has been opened put a bit of a damper on their efforts too, don't you suppose?

It also seems that Keli did give you helpful information regarding your concerns about Weatherstock, which you indifferently brushed off. Being delayed, that certainly buys the devs more time to refine the system, does it not? With the update still at least a month and a half away, that gives them plenty more time to make more fixes, find any newly-surfaced issues, and from there decide if it's in a state to be released to live.

Wow....Okay....I feel so scolded...who put bunny buttons in your pie?

Lets me answer you...
Not the point. I agree. Me too. Thank you. I do. Me either. Is that true? I do suppose.

Actually, Keli said they moved Weatherstock back because of this, however, my first concern was for Day on the Greenfields and Keli is correct saying its going to probably give me some trouble since the event I am responsible should come before Weatherstock. Yes, I agree, more time for them to fix and address issues. However I am still left wanting. You see.....If they update late in April, it will give very little time to adjust songs for the bands that wish to attend the Greenfields music event. This is of course providing they include the music patch in the update. I do not think I am stepping out of the bounds of good taste by asking for a "bluename" to give us some kind of quick update on what the plans are or when Bullroarer might be back up for further testing considering all has gone quiet since the last bullroarer update.

[siipperi]

They said smaller update might happen before osgiliath, if not you must wait atleast till end of next month.