15.2 Player music

[Emere]

Aye, I suppose so, but that still doesn't explain why the music sounds so lifeless and dull and flat now. I was happy with the new horn as well, as I thought it was great at first glance, and I still like it, but even that has lost is flare with many of the songs I have. It works great for my pink panther, but for rock, not so much anymore. It varies song to song but seems less useful than before. I still think overall (the music system) is less than what we had before. I think its going to make every band sound like the next aside from what they chose to play as is my feelings from what I have already heard from different bands. I really do hope much more work is done on the system or its rolled back because at this point in time, I have no intention of transcribing anymore songs save one and that is for Mrs Tearna for a story she wants to do. A song I already have but doesn't work so well now. Think I can make it at least somewhat playable. :/

[Katiepie]

After much testing, some ranting, more thinking and listening I have come to the conclusion that if we are to have adjustments to the current system I would like to know what it is Devs/sound people plan to do to improve the current system. I also want a time table of when we can expect these fixes and tweaks.

I want to give the new system a real chance before I start campaigning for a return to the old system. I don't think we had an improved system at all. I think we have had a changed system with as many issues if not more issues than our old music system.

I must admit I lean toward agreeing with those who think the old system is better - Is it possible to have both sets of instruments? Sort out the directional sound issue, reset the lute, add a mandolin, fix the short cut on the pipes? Get a new un-breathed sample for the lower range on the flute, do something with the clarinet sample to make it sound clarinetty? Etc etc.....

I know you gave it a good try and I appreciate the efforts made to improve the system but the end result is just not doing the job.

I edit this post with a pair of links to my version of The Blue Danube.

Freemark aka Tim posted a live stream from our testing session https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKt04P7Yfhs

I have posted a dubbed file with Audio taken from my finished abc file project. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPTC...ature=youtu.be

They should sound alike but do differ! What differences can you hear??

[Thurallor]

Thanks and congrats to the devs for sticking with it and fixing the bugs. I have renewed respect for you guys.

Now it's time to put the bow on the package, as it were. A (relatively small) additional effort now will make all the difference in users' perception of this change.

[Keli]

Well, just played concert and had awful click/pops. I don't think this is anything to do with new system specifically but I do wonder if any other changes were to playback at all. I tried changing speaker drivers etc but no good. Other members of the band did not seem to be affected.

[Emere]

Well, just played concert and had awful click/pops. I don't think this is anything to do with new system specifically but I do wonder if any other changes were to playback at all. I tried changing speaker drivers etc but no good. Other members of the band did not seem to be affected.

In Bree? That is where I was getting them. I still wonder if it doesn't have something to do with area. I do not seem to get them in the homesteads very often, didn't get any at Methal stage when I was helping Lilikate. When I beta tested I did it in Bree outside the pony and got a lot of them, got a few when I tested after update when live in same location. You might try playing a different location just to see if it still happens or happens as often.

[Katiepie]

I edited my last post with some nice audio examples. Listen for yourselves to the new quality.

[Lolorndinfey]

Well, just played concert and had awful click/pops. I don't think this is anything to do with new system specifically but I do wonder if any other changes were to playback at all. I tried changing speaker drivers etc but no good. Other members of the band did not seem to be affected.

Could you list your options:Audio settings? Which sound card? How many alts? Location in Bree? Song file size, BPM, how many parts, duration of song?
Oh, do you have any background windows running? Besides songbook and lyrical, do you have any other LUA plugins running?

This would help out the devs in identifying the problem I think. I bet they would love to know what's causing the problems too.

We're on concert #7 in Bree across servers, and so far so good. Yes, there's still the occasional drop out and lag gap, and the odd chord delay, but snap-pop is gone for us. Testing now to be certain if something's changed prior to today's concert set.

[Thurallor]

For ease of comparison, here are Katiepie's two videos, with the start times adjusted to match. You can switch back and forth between the two to compare them.

First video: New LOTRO music system rendition


(I'll post the second video in another message since the forum won't let me put two videos in one message.)

[Thurallor]

Here are Katiepie's videos, with the start times adjusted to match. You can open them in two separate windows and switch back and forth to compare.

Video 1: Maestro rendition

Video 2: New music system rendition

[Emere]

You should redo this with the lutes, one of the worst features of the new system, it looks like the second test when we switched to harps on the lute parts.

[Katiepie]

Fotr will go up with lutes next Finny... It is true the recording on the live stream is after I decided to stop the Orchestra and switch all the Lutes to Harps. I am not saying with the old system the Symphony played really well in LOTRO but I can't even imagine how to rework the orchestra's files to avoid all the "dodgy" notes on all the various different instruments and still be able to pull out of the hat something that can compare to these large classical pieces. I'll post a link when I have uploaded that second Symphony.

Freemark I didn't use Maestro for the finished product, I used Bruzo's "BruTE". Without this converter of Bruzo's I would not be able to eliminate duplicate tones and I would always have too many notes and be subject to the random droppage that you may have heard us speak of from time to time.



Please see Freemarks Live Stream (last 13 minutes) to listen to the FOTR Symphony as you can hear it in game now.

[Silmelin]

Hello music team!

Could you please keep us a bit up to date with what's going on? I think much of the worry might be about not knowing what's being worked on. And if you add any fixes, would you mind posting them here real quick so we know when to test things? Once again, thank you so much for continuing to work on this! <3

[Lolorndinfey]

2 issues.

Should we make a new 16.0 Player music thread or stay here?

Regardless of the maxsounds filter, there seems to be a three simultaneous note limit to the current system per part in a multi-part .abc file.

*****
Was testing on BR this morning, and was experimenting with some of the songs that are big in size, fast in tempo, and filled with chords. When I edited the parts to have no more than 4 simultaneous notes, or a chord, the drop out seems to disappear. Not sure if it's because of the tempo, or the density of notes within a bar, but this may be the status quo if the music system is not updated to match the capabilities of the previous system. At most 4 simultaneous notes can be supported, but in my experiments 3 seemed to be the safe limit.

This may fly in the face of some here that say we should disregard the old system (and supported .abc files from that system), and go and explore this new system. It may directly support what some here are saying to roll back the system.

Could Turbine please look into this?

It's quite easy to replicate. Take one track and 'stack' it by an octave shift up or down, then merge it with an existing part/track. This does not explain the drum track dropout from the 'saltshaker' rattle, but may be a cause of that drop out.

It is a loss in capability of the music system to support chords, or more specifically, stacked chords.

Food for thought, Turbine.

[Annelian]

I have a question that is probably totally unrelated to the music system changes, but maybe not. Has the animation of the characters changed for playing any of the instruments?

I noticed something while checking out how the music files I have sound on the lute with the new music system in place.

My elf and my hobbit ladies make really weird faces while playing the lute and theorbo. Their eyes go back and forth and their eyebrows go up and down. Their mouths hang open through the whole thing and the elves have a weird twitch at the corners of their mouths. Makes for a really strange look and I never noticed this before. Is this something new?

[Swagman]

I have a question that is probably totally unrelated to the music system changes, but maybe not. Has the animation of the characters changed for playing any of the instruments?

I noticed something while checking out how the music files I have sound on the lute with the new music system in place.

My elf and my hobbit ladies make really weird faces while playing the lute and theorbo. Their eyes go back and forth and their eyebrows go up and down. Their mouths hang open through the whole thing and the elves have a weird twitch at the corners of their mouths. Makes for a really strange look and I never noticed this before. Is this something new?

Sounds to me like you have one of the mood emotes turned on. Open your emotes and choose mood_calm and see if that changes anything.

[Elwenwing]

I'm afraid those silly faces come standard when playing those instruments! It has been like that for quite a while!

The mood emotes can be used to mitigate them though!

[SpiritusLOTRO]

Regarding 01APR15 15.3 live build (Version 1503.0056.2720.4054)

After giving some time for hotfixes, I've gone through each note of every instrument to enumerate the most glaringly off-timbre notes. From my last perusal in beta (https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...83#post7317583), some notes have been fixed, other notes have new issues, but the vast majority remain as they were in the 11FEB15 15.2 beta build.

Inter-Dynamic Balance: A quick note here. The dynamic balance between most of the instruments is satisfactory with the exception of the lute and the "shakers" on the drum. These both seem to be ~15% louder overall using the other instruments as a baseline. More detail below.

Intra-Timbre Balance: See detailed below.

Clarinet:
F3 -- Has a "loose reed" sound that makes it stand out from the other notes. It is identified by a noticeable buzzing vibration on the attack of the note.
A3 -- A noticeable warble on the attack.
A#4 - Has a very noticeable metallic "trumpet-like" timbre that sustains throughout the note

Flute:
D2 -- Noticeably breathy compared to the other notes
B2 -- Same as D2
C#3 -- Same as D2
F3 -- Has a very hard attack compared to other notes. Meaning, the breath is pushed out very forcefully across the lip plate before settling into the desired force. This note plays very much like a note with a permanent "accent" and can make it undesirably stand out in a piece. Also breathy as a result.
D#4 -- Seems to be about ~15% softer dynamically compared to the other notes.
A4 -- Noticeable metallic sound on the attack
A#4 -- Same as F3
C5 -- Same as D2


Horn:
C#2 -- Has a noticeably "buzzy" timbre compared to the other notes. This timbre aberration is sustained throughout the duration of the note sample.
C#3 -- A slight, but noticeable "buzzy" timbre as if someone played a note on a saxophone with a slightly hard attack. Unlike C#2, this is very short and does not sustain throughout the note.
D4 -- A slight, but noticeable "buzzy" timbre. Similar to C#3.
G4 --Same as C#3

Bagpipe:
Again, I hear no glaring single note timbre issues with the bagpipes. However, I still am hearing a very noticeable "click" on most of the notes when the tone is stopped mid sample and not only while playing quickly. It is clearly not a sample issue and anyone who has worked around audio editing has dealt with this before. I would normally chalk it up to my output hardware, but since several others have mentioned hearing similar issues, I thought it worth bringing it up again.

Lute:
DYNAMIC BALANCE: The dynamics of this instrument are noticeably louder than what is otherwise a pretty good balance between the other instruments. The overall dynamic level could be dropped by ~15% to mesh better with the other instruments.
D#2 -- Has a pitch shift on the sustain (a "warble") as if a finger vibrato was applied to the note.
B3 -- This note has a very pronounced metallic sound more similar to a steel string guitar or banjo than the gut-string sound of the rest of the notes on the lute.
C4 -- Similar to D#2. An odd pitch warble on the sustain. Again as if finger vibrato was applied.
F4 -- Similar to B3. Less pronounced, but an extremely audible metallic ping on the attack.
B4 -- Similar to B3, less pronounced.
C5 -- Similar to B3, less pronounced.
*Sidenote: I want to clarify to the reader-at-large, this is an attempt to balance within the overall timbre of the new sample. I am aware that the new sample has changed to an overall sharper, more "lute-like" sound. Suggestion: Since the Lyre model is already in game (as seen used by NPCs in Gondor) and uses the same animations as the harp, is there some way to satisfy both this new sample and the old lute sample through the introduction of a non-combat Lyre? Just a spitball.

Harp:
*EDIT: I'm still unclear if the old samples can be adjusted. If not, then ignore. If so, then the following:
D#2 -- Has a slight "metallic" sound compared to the other notes, as if it was picked by a fingernail instead of the finger.
C#3 -- Same as D#2.
F3 -- Same as D#2.
G3 - Same as D#2.
G#3 -- Same as D#2, but more pronounced.

Theorbo:
C#3 -- Too much pitch shift on the reverb. Meaning the "wavy" sound a plucked string gives off after played is unnaturally broad -- almost as if this specific note has a finger vibrato applied, rather than just its natural vibrato.
A3 -- Same as C#3
C#4 -- Same as C#3, more pronounced.
D#4 -- Same as C#3.
E4 -- Same as C#3.
A4 -- Has the pitch shift reverb issue as in C#3, but also has a "hard attack" sound on the pluck that is noticeably different than the timbre on the attack of the other notes.
A#4 -- Has both of the issues of A4.
B4 -- Same as C#3.
C5 -- Has both of the issues of A4.

Pibgorn:
A2 -- The pitch starts off a quarter-step lower in tone and slurs up to the proper pitch. As if the musician is quickly correcting sloppy finger positioning.
A#2 -- Same as A2.
B2 -- Same as A2.
C3 -- A very noticeably different sounding timbre as if being played on a different instrument. It has a very sharp trumpet-like timbre rather than the more mellow accordion-like timbre of the majority of the pibgorn notes.
G#3 -- Similar to C3, less pronounced.
A3 -- Same as A2, but instead starts a full half-step before slurring into the proper pitch. Playing G#3 followed by A3 sounds like G#3, G#3, A3.
A#3 -- Same as A2.
B3 -- Same as A2.
C4 -- Same as C3.
G#4 -- Same as C3.
A4 -- Same as A2. Also is a full half-step slur like A3.
A#4 -- Same as A2.
B4 -- Same as A2.

Drums, Cowbell, Moor Cowbell:
Nothing inconsistent here timbre-wise. However, the shakers on the drums seem to have been increased in volume by my ear. Dropping them down by ~15% I think would create a better overall balance with the rest of the instruments. The other sounds (drums, stick hits, etc.) are fine. For clarity, these are the shaker notes on the drum: C#2, F#2, G#2, A#2, G#3, A3, B3, & C4.

============================== =====

It would be appreciated if we can get some feedback on if the development team is aware of these issues and are planning to address them in future builds, or if they are generally happy with the timbre balance as it stands on live. Thank you.

[Emere]

Regarding 01APR15 15.3 live build (Version 1503.0056.2720.4054)
It would be appreciated if we can get some feedback on if the development team is aware of these issues and are planning to address them in future builds, or if they are generally happy with the timbre balance as it stands on live. Thank you.

I think many of us are waiting to hear from the blue names about this.

Concerning the rest of your post.
Outstanding work Mr Lifimun. I am glad you have the knowledge and experience to find and explain what I couldn't put into words well. Much more thorough than I could ever be too.
The only addition I can think to add now is that I think the upper octaves of the Theorbo now sound more bell like. I do not know why it does, but it does to me. I noticed it during testing the other night and it makes the Theorbo sound really bad in the upper range. It stood out on one of the songs we tested and then on my Victor Wooten bass solo. I hope it is something else they fix. I always wanted, like many others, bells for our music system, but this is not acceptable.

I have seen much potential with the new system but at the same time, I am unhappy with it. I think it takes away the creativity needed to make some really nice songs and in essence, has dumbed down the entire system making every band sound more generic and alike. Just as important, we were told we may have to tweak some songs here and there. That we wouldn't have to toss out or redo most of our files, and now has grown into we wanted this enough to be willing to adjust most all of them. I am unsure where that came from as I never was wanting to have to redo the majority of my songs. I wanted a few missing notes replaced and a bit of tuning done, then some new instruments added.
The new system doesn't, as is right now support bands like da Bugans genre of music which is heavy metal. The old lute and horn worked really well for it, but the new lute and horn just do not. Don't get me wrong, I love the new horn, but we lost as much as we gained from it. Kirk Hammett on the new lute...how depressing is that? Granted, they spoke of giving us another lute to replace the one we had but how long will that be? I still don't believe the new lute covers well for piano either, another loss of a bunch of songs that wont ever sound right on the new lute. It was the best substitute we had for a concert piano, electric piano, acoustic guitar and often worked really well for some heavy metal grinds.

All my other rants and misgivings from earlier posts go here. Blah blah blah.

I think we deserve to have some kind of update as to what will be done, or attempted to be done, and what kind of time frame we are looking at.
I am pretty much in limbo musically at this moment in time and do not wish to do much at all until I have an idea of what we are up against.
I will for sake of our band, tweak a few songs to get us through a few more concerts, but I will not continue to go into this blindly for very much longer.

Yay for bunny pets even if it isn't gonna be a cute little grey bunny like I always wanted!
~Now supporting hobbit combat bunny pets such as the Killer Bunny of Caerbannog~

[SchorschiSchrumpf]

After looking into clarinet, lute, bagpipes, horn -

I have the suspicion that the biggest part of the so called "sprucing up" of the music system was to apply a frequency filter around the 40Hz region to cancel out the low frequency components of the old tones and otherwise minimal changes to volume and some pitch-adjustments.

I wished that would have been said in the patch notes, it would have been much clearer why we can't accept these changes!

This is why our instruments sound flat now - it is kind of like removing the reverberating body of the instruments; remove the backside of a guitar or listen to them through a telephone and you'll have a similar effect (much more pronounced yes, but the tendency of the patch goes towards that direction).


In short: there is no new instruments .. only slightly crippled versions of the old instruments (the exception are those with adjusted pitches, those ones are first fixed and then also crippled).

[Emere]

After looking into clarinet, lute, bagpipes, horn -

I have the suspicion that the biggest part of the so called "sprucing up" of the music system was to apply a frequency filter around the 40Hz region to cancel out the low frequency components of the old tones and otherwise minimal changes to volume and some pitch-adjustments.

I wished that would have been said in the patch notes, it would have been much clearer why we can't accept these changes!

This is why our instruments sound flat now - it is kind of like removing the reverberating body of the instruments; remove the backside of a guitar or listen to them through a telephone and you'll have a similar effect (much more pronounced yes, but the tendency of the patch goes towards that direction).


In short: there is no new instruments .. only slightly crippled versions of the old instruments (the exception are those with adjusted pitches, those ones are first fixed and then also crippled).

I noticed the theorbo has a few high notes that sound more like a bell than a bass too. So much that needs fixed. I'm a sad bunny...

[Katiepie]

Thanks Lifi for that detailed note for note tonal description.

I am in full agreement with Lifi on all these note issues. I am also in agreement with Bruzo and Emere that the quality of the entire system has been dropped by cutting the reverb of the instruments. Especially the Wind and Brass.

Personally I am of the opinion that they should have just tuned the old system if that was possible to do or started from scratch and not tried to put single note new samples in the complete ranges.

I thank you for your efforts and I believe it was worth a try but I am thinking we are not in possession now of an improved system on the old. I await with interest on any comment that will be made from official sources.

[Thurallor]

The thing that frustrates me is that we have so little information about the changes from Turbine.

• What is the nature and extent of the changes to the music system?
• What is the rationale for these decisions?

A dev chat and/or some more thorough release notes would be helpful.

[Emere]

I suggested on the twich stream the other day, that we have the music devs do a twich concert and give us a chance to discuss the music system. It was during the Quartermasters twitch stream and Frelorn was present in chat. I did not see a response so I do not expect it to happen but thought it would be a good idea.
I cannot agree more about hearing something though. The silence is deafening.

[robbie1435]

I want to give the new system a real chance before I start campaigning for a return to the old system.

Hate to "enrage" the music community(Is it even possible to do such a thing?) but:

You mean like we did with U15 Music System?

[SpiritusLOTRO]

You mean like we did with U15 Music System?

The fundamental differences between U15 & U15.3 are apparent for anyone who has engaged in the process during these past months. I was very open to U15 during beta testing. But the live product was nearly universally panned as not just a "first attempt," but as wholly incomplete. There was only one beta release of the U15 music system and it did not receive /any/ attention past that initial release until it went live. Completely inexcusable. It was quite literally a first stab beta build pushed live. I've never seen its equal in sheer audacity.

This time around there has been engagement (in the beta process) and a far better live product. Not to say that live product is "finished" by any stretch. It is not. If I were developing this system in a vacuum without any downward pressure, it would still be in beta.

However, I like to remain part of the solution when I can. I feel this can be fixed if the developers have the same level of engagement for the U16 beta as they did in U15.3.