Are we being milked?

[Radhruin_EU]

My first post in regards to the lore I specifically said that (imo) the ideal scenario would be if Turbine acquired the rights to go further with the story into the Fourth Age. If possible, to branch off what comes next in the game from what happened in the books (for it to not be considered true canon so as not upset..well, people like you, clearly). While it would draw inspiration and a certain narrative from what tid bits Tolkien left behind in regards to the Fourth Age, Turbine would have freedom to do what they want (and so far, what they have done that hasn't been in the book has been pretty good).

I didn't need to acknowledge any of the #### you mention above in any of my posts, because for my part, I already assumed it would be the case. As you've already proven, you have a knack for jumping to conclusions and assuming all sorts of bs.

"who is to say that the "epic story" cannot continue?" - you want more of the same

"Who is to say that there isn't a new Big Bad waiting in the wings to replace him?" - you want more of the same

"Who is to say that the writers at Turbine can't weave their own stories and adventures out of the existing mythology for us to experience in-game?" - you want more of the same. In case you hadn't noticed, the 'existing mythology' actually ends when the High Elves leave, as the mythological stuff was very much their story (the legendarium was originally conceived as a framing device for Tolkien's invented languages) and it ends with "...an end was come for the Eldar of story and of song." - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, which is the last line in the published Silmarillion. And that's why there's nothing but bits and pieces thereafter, a bit of sketched-in history but no more tales. You really don't seem to get quite what sort of threshold we'd be stepping over, why Tolkien found no scope for a further epic to follow.

[OldMadeOfLions]

The dev who (you?) wrote the Edoras quest involving Atwald probably had that in mind...

That wasn't me, but we certainly pay attention to player feedback and occasionally our characters might become a little self-aware.

MoL

[Evelwyn]

So, more dish-washing, water skin-filling, meal-delivering, and herb-grinding?

I swear, in Eastern Gondor when I was reluctantly pulled aside to investigate why some patients at the healer were not recovering, and I went and gathered the herbs, I said over my shoulder to the wife: "If they make me grind these herbs myself I may just quit the game right here". . .

. . . when it had me grind the herbs myself I stared blankly at the screen for a minute, said nothing so the wife wouldn't hear. . . and then went in search of the eight patients that needed to be clicked.

All of which is to say that the larger stories have been top-notch. But the monotonous grunt work involved in the generic landscape quests, after eight years, is becoming intolerable. Surely by now we can eschew the blatant time sinks and busy-work? With no level cap increases, and all the time sinks already at endgame, the almost demeaning nature of what we're asked to do in a time of crisis and war (to say nothing of the needless waste of real-life time to no game design benefit I can see in the present context) should be addressed?

Sending us to a workbench to make twelve spears. . . and requiring us to click all twelve seems like a game mechanic for a bygone era. But at least that was spears and not mess hall dishes.

Again, I'd like to emphasize that the overall stories told are top-notch. And I have nothing but praise for Turbine's writers. But it's being severely diluted in the sea of monotonous, demeaning, generic time-sink quests that seem out of place for this era of the game.

If there is no, what you call grunt work, then what remains becomes the mundane everyday work and becomes nothing special. If you don’t like a particular quest you are doing, don’t do it.

[bucko39]

"who is to say that the "epic story" cannot continue?" - you want more of the same

"Who is to say that there isn't a new Big Bad waiting in the wings to replace him?" - you want more of the same

"Who is to say that the writers at Turbine can't weave their own stories and adventures out of the existing mythology for us to experience in-game?" - you want more of the same. In case you hadn't noticed, the 'existing mythology' actually ends when the High Elves leave, as the mythological stuff was very much their story (the legendarium was originally conceived as a framing device for Tolkien's invented languages) and it ends with "...an end was come for the Eldar of story and of song." - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, which is the last line in the published Silmarillion. And that's why there's nothing but bits and pieces thereafter, a bit of sketched-in history but no more tales. You really don't seem to get quite what sort of threshold we'd be stepping over, why Tolkien found no scope for a further epic to follow.

Continue, yes. Using the same narrative threads as before...I never said that.

Another big bad waiting in the wings, yes. The same as the one we had before...I never said that.

Just because Tolkien "found no scope for a further epic to follow" doesn't mean that the writers at Turbine (if given permission) cannot expand on it further. Y'know...because it's an MMORPG.

What you don't seem to quite get is the more you carry on like this, the more you come across as a pompous jerk who needs to pull the stick out of his ###.

/ignore.

[BangoTwinkletoes]

The dev who (you?) wrote the Edoras quest involving Atwald probably had that in mind:

Atwald: 'Come now...truly? This is your heroic work? It is dirty, I grant you, and boring too. The old woman has no cares -- she gets to be wheeled to Dunharrow without any exertion. She should count herself lucky.
'If I promise to stop singing sour songs, will you release me from this tedium?'
------
Atwald: 'I have never in my life been so grateful to see a task completed. Is this really and truly how you chose to spend your time? I could never abide such wretched dullness.
'I suppose my own situation looks rather better by comparison. I will give you that, at least. Perhaps my next song will touch on the subject:
'Worry not about war,For your life is no bore,Your days could be worse.If dullness is your curse.'Atwald sneers at your way of life
------ After one more mundane quest in Edoras:
Atwald: 'I have learned today that heroism takes many forms. I may not have skill with a sword, but if I can inspire our people during this difficult time, it will be enough.'

The point you miss is that good writing can give us excellent content without resorting to constant hack & slash or the mindless click-fests. Quest design is not a zero-sum game whereby it's one or the other. There's no excuse for having quests that are nothing more than talking to person A, clicking on a few dirty plate icons and then going talking to person A again. More story-telling, more focus on engaging us as players and asking us to think about what it is we are doing would be a good start.

Earlier today I worked through a "quest" in The Secret World that had me going to different parts of the world map finding memory cards so my character could then play a classic-style text adventure in-game that would give me clues to then find the next instalment. There was almost no killing required and no washing up dishes either but it was about as original as one could get, kept me engaged for a couple of hours trying to work through the clues etc and made me use my brain. I'd really love lotro to return to that quality for all the content it puts out.

[welden]

I fully understand the 'I'm a hero! Why am I doing trivial, mundane tasks?' complaint (and it's a complaint that's been around forever -- 'Why am I delivering lunches to dwarves outside Moria?' was a popular one), but they often serve real, honest-to-goodness purposes. I don't want us to overuse them (and clearly that can happen), but if every quest was a heroic combat encounter we'd lose much of the variety that I think Middle-earth needs and deserves.

I don't believe this is the essence of the complaint. I for one could care less if my hero is doing trivial, mundane tasks that advance the story in which these tasks are involved. The problem (for me at least) is more about the game mechanics involved in doing said tasks. These game mechanics are usually always unwanted time consumers and I think THIS is the heart of the issue that Hurin is complaining about. It is definitely an issue for me!

Now that there are 100 levels to grind out, these quests that involve us manually 'collecting things' take more and more valuable time away from the limited time we players have to accomplish the things that we wish to accomplish i.e... leveling, questing, crafting, exploring, deeding, customizing our characters from our wardrobes to our weapons and to our pets and whatever else we wish to do with our time in this game.

If we have to collect things then why can it not be made automatic as we ride out into the landscape? Using the dwarves outside of Moria as an example; why couldn't the game automatically deliver those lunches to the dwarves as we ride by them on our way to the hidden door of Moria? Perhaps there could be a UI setting that auto-delivers and auto-collects just like there is an auto-loot?

I am not faulting your story telling MoL, I just wish MORE effort could be put into making certain aspects of this game require LESS effort...so we could have more time for the already tremendous and often overwhelming amount of other stuff the game offers for us to do!

Welden

[OldMadeOfLions]

If we have to collect things then why can it not be made automatic as we ride out into the landscape? Using the dwarves outside of Moria as an example; why couldn't the game automatically deliver those lunches to the dwarves as we ride by them on our way to the hidden door of Moria?

It could have been a simple 'ride close to a dwarf' objective, but if we did that we lose the interactive nature of the quest. By not talking to the dwarves, you also lose the information that they give to you: what they expect to find inside, the fact that the collapse at the door seems to have happened recently, that the leaders of the expedition are related to dwarves that were in Thorin's Company, that the lake is making them uneasy, things like that. All those tidbits add up to paint a more compelling picture than you get from just driving next to the dwarves on your way past them.

MoL

[TharbadThief]

The point you miss is that good writing ..... *snip*

I'm not missing any point. I didn't take any part in the debate about good writing in my post above. I was just reminded of that quest thread because of what MoL said, and thought maybe the player feedback was behind that short storyline.

[Leixy]

There's plenty of ways for power levelers to skip quest content they don't want to read.

Quests are for people mostly interested in the stories.

Granted, people leveling their 10th alt may not want to read quest dialogues, but that's mostly a function of their addiction, than anything else =D

[Evelwyn]

Some of you are beginning to remind me of Eowyn.


"At a sign from Faramir, the Warden bowed and departed. ‘What would you have me do, lady?’ said Faramir. ‘I also am a prisoner of the healers.’ He looked at her, and being a man whom pity deeply stirred, it seemed to him that her loveliness amid her grief would pierce his heart. And she looked at him and saw the grave tenderness in his eyes, and yet knew, for she was bred among men of war, that here was one whom no Rider of the Mark would outmatch in battle.

‘What do you wish?’ he said again. ‘If it lies in my power, I will do it.’

‘I would have you command this Warden, and bid him let me go,’ she said; but though her words were still proud, her heart faltered, and for the first time she doubted herself. She guessed that this tall man, both stern and gentle, might think her merely wayward, like a child that has not the firmness of mind to go on with a dull task to the end."


Except of course, you all get plenty of "heroic action" compared to her one adventure.

[MurgenTemplar]

The answer is actually very simple.



Off course we are. That's how business is done.

Compliments, excellent and logical answer, we are milked and we bleed.

[Radhruin_EU]

Continue, yes. Using the same narrative threads as before...I never said that.

You want it to continue in the same style, despite how those narrative threads should be over. So it's really just more of the same.

Another big bad waiting in the wings, yes. The same as the one we had before...I never said that.

You want something of the same kind. That's really just more of the same, too. Middle-earth doesn't have an inexhaustible supply of supernatural bad guys! It being the Fourth Age we're talking about then we should be more into the realm of mortal sorcerers, evil kings, sinister high priests and the like.

Just because Tolkien "found no scope for a further epic to follow" doesn't mean that the writers at Turbine (if given permission) cannot expand on it further. Y'know...because it's an MMORPG.

It's not that easy to come up with a completely new epic story, with next to no pre-existing plot hooks to hang it on, and have it stand up next to a fantasy classic. Y'know... because it's LOTR. Or rather it will have been. Then it'd be Not Really Lord of the Rings Any More Online, and ironically enough it'd be back to the Fourth Age setting originally intended for Middle-earth Online.

[Palenen]

Of course we are. Whomever wanted Free to Play. They got it! It is what it is.

[mythalgia]

You cant milk the willing.... if folks want to pay they will.... if you dont want to pay then don't... thats easy.

[Hurin]

It could have been a simple 'ride close to a dwarf' objective, but if we did that we lose the interactive nature of the quest. By not talking to the dwarves, you also lose the information that they give to you: what they expect to find inside, the fact that the collapse at the door seems to have happened recently, that the leaders of the expedition are related to dwarves that were in Thorin's Company, that the lake is making them uneasy, things like that. All those tidbits add up to paint a more compelling picture than you get from just driving next to the dwarves on your way past them.

MoL

First, thank you for directly responding to my post. And I appreciate that you are operating under certain restrictions that the game's engine places upon you.

For me, I think the problem is compounded by two things. Though I doubt it's possible to rectify them at this stage. . .

1. The introduction of the Quest Guide arrow on the radar map. While simple burnout after 8 years undoubtedly has taken its toll, even mundane "find the cart wheel" quests had some amount of challenge in them because we weren't simply led by the nose. And while the Guide is ostensibly optional, in reality it is not. Because quests are no longer written as they once were before its introduction where sufficient directions and landmarks were provided so that we could find things ourselves. Now, quests are: "read, click accept, orient yourself to the arrow, arrive, click, click, click, turn around, orient to the arrow, arrive, turn in, read." It simply didn't feel that way prior.

2. Trait Points at the very, very end of the longest and most arduous quest chains now make quest chains feel (semi-)mandatory. Which makes the issues in #1 above and described elsewhere in this thread seem all the more aggravating.

I appreciate that not everything can be an epic struggle between good and evil. And I don't mind mundane quests so much as I find myself chaffing under the mundane way we complete them. But to be fair to the other side it should be pointed out that there are undoubtedly many "filler" quests that blatantly feel like they were there to either pad the quest numbers (for leveling purposes) or to simply eat up the player's time. Neither of which should be of current concern since there has been no level cap increase and there is already a ton of time-sinks at endgame.

For me, the oversimplification of what's actually required of us (via the Quest Guide), the side-quests to nowhere featuring people we will only know for a few seconds and then never see again, the (sometimes) needlessly monotonous mechanics (it's not always a case of getting more story. . . that twelfth herb didn't say nuthin' to me ), and then the sense that each and every quest is mandatory if we want our characters to "operate at full power". . . this all leads to a new situation for me. . . I gave up on maxing out all my alts long ago. But now, I'm even having trouble generating enthusiasm for playing my main on my first time through the story/stories.

There may not be solutions, but hopefully the feedback is being received (by those to whom it is directed) in the spirit in which it is offered. From someone who very much appreciates the hard work and dedication of those providing this experience to us.

Thanks,

Hurin

[paintpixie]

Of course we're being "milked". Anytime a company takes something popular, and makes something that's based on it, they are doing it to try and get a piece of that profit.

It's not the worst case in the world. It's not Peter Jackson turning the Hobbit into three movies obvious, either. But, yes, they are milking Tolkien fans. Of course they are. But there isn't necessarily anything wrong with that. If they are happy and their fans are happy too, it's a peaceful coexistence.

[Schinderhannes]

I think gamedesign should consider more the state of (many) players accounts in the endgame. The amount of wealth and number of characters they accumulated over the time. And of course the amount of similar quests they've done on their way to mordor. It might be a good time to approach new regions with alternative gameplay instead of putting the player in the same butler-role from previous regions.

I really miss being able to solve quests using class skills like playing music, healing, using a shield to protect an npc, an axe or sprint-skill to create shortcuts in dungeons etc...
I also don't understand why we cannot use our gold, food, potions and other resources to help npcs on the way. I miss stuff like hytbold in a smaller scale. I'd like to help people building stuff all the time.
There is so much wood, iron and leather in my bank accounts. I could built a whole castle with it.

And why not offering some branched dialogues? Even if they only trigger one or two different answers/reactions. I think this still could spice things up a bit and get player more invested in their characters.

More agency™ please!
...
And fluidity™!
Please offer crafting speed bonus to high tier crafting tools and lower some of the inductions in the game while picking stuff up or interacting with items. Not everything needs an induction imo. After 1000 herbs, flowers and mushrooms our characters should have bought a scythe or sickle by now. *whusch!* done!

[DanielMoravek]

It could have been a simple 'ride close to a dwarf' objective, but if we did that we lose the interactive nature of the quest. By not talking to the dwarves, you also lose the information that they give to you: what they expect to find inside, the fact that the collapse at the door seems to have happened recently, that the leaders of the expedition are related to dwarves that were in Thorin's Company, that the lake is making them uneasy, things like that. All those tidbits add up to paint a more compelling picture than you get from just driving next to the dwarves on your way past them.

MoL

MOL, look around competition from other genres, your game-design [objectives for players] are almost a decade obsolete, forcing players do boring things, its great in beginning, but not after level 60.
I think this game needs some more sandbox elements, players now have to wait several months for questpacks which last about 1-2 weeks [if we cut out boring grind and artificially prolonged objectives].
sandbox elements would help keep more people in the LOTRO. [dynamic sandbox objectives with some meaningful impact on regions or factions, even entire world].
Or it could be some simpler hamster wheel mechanic, but it must be fun to do, objectives/quests in lotro sometimes feel like forced labour not entertaining way how to play game.

also after so many years, i have come to conclusion that huge sized game worlds can be bad. [world is too large and static, hard to do re-vamp of old areas, if not enough players game become wasteland and new players feels lonely].

I really recommend to Devs... sit to your own game in your free time and try to play it from the start to the end each day at least 1-2 hours [do quests], then you must see problem.

[danielbrown1969]

I really recommend to devs... sit to your own game in your free time and try to play it from the start to end each day at least 1-2 hours [do quests], than you must see problem.

^ This is the best advice that I have read on these forums these past few months....although, if I were allowed to expand upon it, I would suggest that the devs not only play lotro for 1-2 hours per day, but also they should play other mmorpgs as well so they can do a little comparison shopping.

[HeirOfNumenor]

You want something of the same kind. That's really just more of the same, too. Middle-earth doesn't have an inexhaustible supply of supernatural bad guys! It being the Fourth Age we're talking about then we should be more into the realm of mortal sorcerers, evil kings, sinister high priests and the like.

It seems to me that the natural progression would be from the Departure from the Grey Havens to shift to Aragorn & Eomer mopping up mortal enemies in Rhun, Khand, and Harad (and fighting new armies in the furthest East and South), the cleansing of the northernmost Misty Mountains, Grey Mountains and Northern Wastes, resettling of Minhiriath and Enedwaith, etc., while the remaining elves and dwarves either set sail or dwindle and hide away (as do the Hobbits)....

In others words lots of evil and corrupt mortals....nothing more....

Now Fast Forward in history from Tolkien's pre-history / legendary past:

Skipping Adam & Eve and Noah's Flood (some type of Fall of Man alluded to in Silmarillion, and the destruction of Numenor takes care of the flood story in Tolkien's mythology), then what we have next on the world scene is the most ancient reaches of Sumerian/Akkadian, Egyptian, and Chinese histories....empire vs. empire, man vs. man....

This is our trajectory....

[The_Jagannath]

... Heroes do what others won't or can't, whether 'trivial' or 'mundane' or 'heroic', for a key to heroism is personal character, not combat prowess...

Thank you.

[Silmelin]

PS You're delivering lunches to dwarves so you'll have a string of quest-rings to follow on the verrrrrry long hike up to the Doors of Durin, to help you from getting lost, if you were wondering.

That's not why I am delivering lunches to the dwarves! I'm doing it because they've been working hard and are probably getting hungry! Besides, the lil bearded pixels are my friends and it's nice to go see how they're doing :P

It could have been a simple 'ride close to a dwarf' objective, but if we did that we lose the interactive nature of the quest. By not talking to the dwarves, you also lose the information that they give to you: what they expect to find inside, the fact that the collapse at the door seems to have happened recently, that the leaders of the expedition are related to dwarves that were in Thorin's Company, that the lake is making them uneasy, things like that. All those tidbits add up to paint a more compelling picture than you get from just driving next to the dwarves on your way past them.

MoL

I'm going to take this chance to beg for less 'ride close to a dwarf' objectives, and more interactive stuff. For me it's best when I can take my time to click and read the text. First of all, it means more story bits and getting to know the characters. And also, something might happen right when I get close to the automatic quest turn-in point and will miss whatever is supposed to happen. The phone might ring, or someone might send me a tell making me distracted. I like when I can take my own time and read properly with no distractions

Oh, and I'm one of those people placing the cursor over every little thing to read the descriptions. Send me to pick a flower and I will zoom in on it out in the field to look at it, and I will place the cursor over it to read the (often sweet or funny) text, and I'll read the text appearing on the screen when I have picked it up, and after picking it I will open the quest log to look at the pretty lil icon! I enjoy doing this which makes it the right way to play for me! Savour the game!




Also, this game has a lot of quests so those who don't like certain quests can easily skip them, and there are those of us who enjoy them and therefore they shouldn't be removed. It's not fair to take away something some people like, just because some people don't like it even though they don't have to do it
We are all different, and there's nothing wrong with having a lil something for everyone!

[welden]

It could have been a simple 'ride close to a dwarf' objective, but if we did that we lose the interactive nature of the quest. By not talking to the dwarves, you also lose the information that they give to you: what they expect to find inside, the fact that the collapse at the door seems to have happened recently, that the leaders of the expedition are related to dwarves that were in Thorin's Company, that the lake is making them uneasy, things like that. All those tidbits add up to paint a more compelling picture than you get from just driving next to the dwarves on your way past them.

MoL

Understood! But how about making it a choice? For the first go around in the game I can see your point in being interactive with the story line objectives but what about those of us who roll alts? I personally try to avoid all quests on my alts that make me have to collect or deliver stuff just for the sake of saving time. However, there are many quests we are forced to do like the one mentioned above that are pretty much unavoidable as we advance characters through the game.

Being interactive and involved with forced objectives gets old quickly and discourages a vital part of the game play that Turbine promotes: multiple character creation for the multiple classes and races available.

This game makes it fun to create new charaters for each of the classes and races offered but..., it isn't so much so after we take a few of them through the same old time consuming, (boring after a time or two) series of killing, gathering, collecting, delivering laden quest objectives!!! Been there done that and - not - too - thrilled - about - doing - it - again - routine!

I totally get why some people just don't do alts. Having said that, making alts has kept me in this game but playing them has made me stop playing more times than I think Turbine would want.

Welden

P.S. Auto-loot was a big step in the right direction. How about auto-collect and auto-deliver options as well? Preforming mundane tasks/actions will not discourage further game play if their cost in TIME is considered and lowered.

[Valamar]

. . . actions will not discourage further game play if their cost in TIME is considered and lowered.

This is really all that this thread is about -- I want it all and I want it now. I don't want to take time to do anything that I don't want to do. I don't care if anyone else finds it enjoyable or does not object to these things. I expect to be at the Level-cap and to have the best gear with zero effort and with zero time investment on my part -- just give it to me NOW!

[Hurin]

This is really all that this thread is about -- I want it all and I want it now. I don't want to take time to do anything that I don't want to do. I don't care if anyone else finds it enjoyable or does not object to these things. I expect to be at the Level-cap and to have the best gear with zero effort and with zero time investment on my part -- just give it to me NOW!

Hmmmm. . . was just reading my long-ish posts and I don't see that there. Was just looking at my list of toons (all but RK, WRD, and BEOR) which I've painstakingly polished to level 85+ raid-ready (if there were any) since beta. . . and I don't see any indication of what you're alleging there either.

So I must assume that this is just your hobbie-horse that you've climbed upon and that you see this whether the actual details of the discussion warrant it or not. I can relate. I feel the same way towards a lot of the "easy mode" requests. But what you're saying definitely doesn't apply to everyone posting here nor the discussion as a whole.

--H