Scaling

[eois]

What were they thinking when they made this? I only creep and yesterday with some kinnies we decided to try out our lvl20's in the moors.

So basically you pay 20 Mithril coins for dying for 6h, we have 0 finesse, most of our attacks don't hit the creeps, when it hits, your max crits seems to be around 1.5k and you end up getting one-shot.

It's not even fun to try it out (looks like freavers even have it better, and they're free!), bet this won't earn them any money in the long run...

[themannweb]

Anyone who has been out in the Moors long enough would have been able to tell you that this would have happened. As soon as it was announced, it was all over Crickhollow and Imladris freep/creep sides for quite some time. Don't want to say "We told you so" but it strikes surprisingly close to it.

[Cadronas]

I tried this on my lv 30 LM. A warg jumped me and munched me up in 2 bites. I spent most of my time doing PVE. Even then taking down NPCs wasn't easy either. I am not giving up yet but I wouldn't recommend any lvl 20s/30s going out to find creeps (even greenies) unless dying is your thing.

[Gilarianen]

If you are VIP it is quite funny, I have a 37 BRG and i had a hr of fun annoying the local creeps stood around GV. But yes, for a paying player it is absolutely useless.

[MasterOfNothing]

Welcome to the moors :-)

I do not want to discourage you, actually I know quite well how it feels.
Been in a similar situation when I first entered the moors.

Believe me, if you go down versus a single creep, it is not a totally inexperienced creep with no rank, but very likely a skilled veteran creep player.

The moors is - more than anything - about personal skill.
If you want to survive on you own (e.g. without grouping), it is also about choosing the right class.
As a new player (scaled or unscaled) you cannot expect to compete versus the veteran players out there.

But you can learn. And eventually you will become better.
But in the beginning it is and will always be a tough time.
Everyone who stays, will have gone through it.
Maybe not so for certain freep classes pre U13. But quite certainly now.
But before you want to roll back the U13 changes, consider this:
Before U13 creeps probably were in a much worse situation than freeps are now.
Those that survived, have become incredibly strong.

If you want to survive, expect to totally relearn your class.
It will take a while (for me at least 1 month until I felt that things were going eventually better)

OTOH, the moors can be alot of fun, once you have found your place.
Just don't judge it from a few hours of play.

Just my two cents.

[spelunker]

Welcome to the moors :-)

I do not want to discourage you, actually I know quite well how it feels.
Been in a similar situation when I first entered the moors.

Believe me, if you go down versus a single creep, it is not a totally inexperienced creep with no rank, but very likely a skilled veteran creep player.

The moors is - more than anything - about personal skill.
If you want to survive on you own (e.g. without grouping), it is also about choosing the right class.
As a new player (scaled or unscaled) you cannot expect to compete versus the veteran players out there.

But you can learn. And eventually you will become better.
But in the beginning it is and will always be a tough time.
Everyone who stays, will have gone through it.
Maybe not so for certain freep classes pre U13. But quite certainly now.
But before you want to roll back the U13 changes, consider this:
Before U13 creeps probably were in a much worse situation than freeps are now.
Those that survived, have become incredibly strong.

If you want to survive, expect to totally relearn your class.
It will take a while (for me at least 1 month until I felt that things were going eventually better)

OTOH, the moors can be alot of fun, once you have found your place.
Just don't judge it from a few hours of play.

Just my two cents.

yeah... not really.

Roll a level 20 freep on BW, any class. I'll fight you with my r2 BA. I've never played the BA class, it has no store skills/traits/corruptions, and i don't think even all the earned skills/traits you can have at r2, our audacity will be even and if you bring out any freep class you've ever played before you'll have more experience on the class than me. Plus BAs are one of the weaker classes creepside. Lets see who wins.

[avengingbananaslug]

yeah... not really.

Roll a level 20 freep on BW, any class. I'll fight you with my r2 BA. I've never played the BA class, it has no store skills/traits/corruptions, and i don't think even all the earned skills/traits you can have at r2, our audacity will be even and if you bring out any freep class you've ever played before you'll have more experience on the class than me. Plus BAs are one of the weaker classes creepside. Lets see who wins.

Well I did beat an r2 reaver on my level 60 scaled up burg! But he also has 2nd agers and good gear and it was still close. The scaled up freeps do some way too weak but I worry if they're too strong you'll just see burg packs roaming around.

[spelunker]

Well I did beat an r2 reaver on my level 60 scaled up burg! But he also has 2nd agers and good gear and it was still close. The scaled up freeps do some way too weak but I worry if they're too strong you'll just see burg packs roaming around.

which is no different from the problem of all the garbage warg packs that roam around constantly. This is a problem of the rewards system in the game, not with scaling. I too have a tricked out lvl 60 burg, and I have beat a couple sub-r5 creeps, but they were positively horrible. I've fought some well ranked creeps who are positively horrible and guess what, I had no chance in hell.

I said it on the BR forums and I'll repeat it again.

Give every scaled freep that enters the moors the exact same thing based on their class, so every scaled freep of a given class is identical.
-lvl 95 3rd age LI equivalent weapon damage rating (currently weapon damage seems to cap around 150dps, where a lvl 95 3rd age is rated around 200 iirc, and 2nd agers around 225) If they're of high enough level to have LIs, let them keep whatever legacies they may have.
-R14 virtues, this is actually already quite good, no need to change.
-27k mastery (this is lower than 95% of lvl 95 freeps in the moors, seems like a low but still useable value)
-12-15% crit
-Agility classes get 10% parry chance, and 15% evade chance (before class bonuses)
-Might classes get 10% parry chance and 15% block, if they can't block, just 15% parry
-Will classes get no bpe
-Everyone gets 15k morale.
-Everyone gets 15 audacity
-45 Trait points to spend (lvl 95 freeps have 67 possible), 45 is basically enough to get everything important in your main spec, with a couple points to unlock something vital in another spec, like dust in the eyes for a burglar.


Scaling is way too big a can of worms for the current Dev team to handle, and every day the current steaming pile continues to exist is another chance for people who might actually be interested in trying out the moors to get curbstomped and never come back (or just go creepside, which is ok). The above would put scaled freeps at a worse footing than level capped freeps with any semblance of gear, and certainly worse off than any ranked creeps, but allow them to be competitive with R2-6 creeps and actually contribute in group encounters.

not mentioned in the original post I quoted, ~30-35% crit defense would be a good choice, too.

[Jeffor]

I tried this on my lv 30 LM. A warg jumped me and munched me up in 2 bites. I spent most of my time doing PVE. Even then taking down NPCs wasn't easy either. I am not giving up yet but I wouldn't recommend any lvl 20s/30s going out to find creeps (even greenies) unless dying is your thing.

This seems to be a part of the issue. Fail wargs that are specifically looking for these types of players. As long as the level scaled players can get some gear and gain some audacity it might not be too bad. I have twinked a 34 burglar and 39 LM and their stats actually aren't too bad. The problem is that they stand out pretty bad, both because of gear and because you can see the level-scale buffs. Still it's kinda fun. My burg and LM have higher morale than many level 95s out there. I think the idea can work. It does need some adjustment though I think. You do have to have top gear on your level though or it doesn't scale well. I am still trying to figure that out. Overall I like the addition though. I have a level 39 LM who is rank 1!

[BBChild]

What were they thinking when they made this? I only creep and yesterday with some kinnies we decided to try out our lvl20's in the moors.

So basically you pay 20 Mithril coins for dying for 6h, we have 0 finesse, most of our attacks don't hit the creeps, when it hits, your max crits seems to be around 1.5k and you end up getting one-shot.

It's not even fun to try it out (looks like freavers even have it better, and they're free!), bet this won't earn them any money in the long run...

Probably for the same reasons they made Epic Battles scalable - so more people could try it out and hopefully like it. I don't think they intended it for level 20s - my guess it it's more for level 70s+ to try out - BUT it was likely easier/faster to code it for all levels than just 70s and up.

I personally first tried the Moors back in August when I was around level 75, still 20 levels away from the "proper" level, but I thoroughly enjoyed it! So much so that I actually purchased a Monster Class and began seriously PvPM'ing. After that I'd always save up my Mithiril until I had enough to go back on my freep (or purchased enough one time). Even 70s and 80s are squishy to level 95 or 100 creeps, but having the stakes so high made it quite a blast. Being killed just made me want to try again.

The only thing I'd change about the current system would be that Moors Time would only expire while IN the actual Moors. Perhaps a level restriction of sorts, like at level 65 or 70 so players can still try it out without having to go VIP or roll a creep, but I don't think that's extremely necessary. You ARE a level 20s character, after all, and it seemed obvious enough to level-75-me that I'd be squishy against level 95 creeps that surely a level-20-you would assume you'd be incredibly squishy out there against level 100 creeps.

[Sezneg]

yeah... not really.

Roll a level 20 freep on BW, any class. I'll fight you with my r2 BA. I've never played the BA class, it has no store skills/traits/corruptions, and i don't think even all the earned skills/traits you can have at r2, our audacity will be even and if you bring out any freep class you've ever played before you'll have more experience on the class than me. Plus BAs are one of the weaker classes creepside. Lets see who wins.

Yeah... I've 2-shot level scaled folk. 5k Mephetic kiss, 4k Tainted kiss.

It's not fun and I end up feeling bad for them.

[BBChild]

This seems to be a part of the issue. Fail wargs that are specifically looking for these types of players.

Ah well, think for a moment there. Wargs are one of the squishiest MP classes… Rank-to-rank against most freep classes (except Hunters/Burglars and Captains in some cases), they don't do well (unless they are a VERY good Warg or have played the game a long time). So any easier snack for them is a bit of a blessing. I'm not saying it's cool to pick on weaklings, but if you think about the situation and mindset Wargs have, it makes sense that the guys at the bottom of the food chain wouldn't mind playing nasty when they can.

And also something to keep in mind is it's not just "fail Wargs." Rank 13 Wardens will pick on UNRANKED beginner Wargs (or any MP class) without even batting an eye. Toughest freep class attacking the squishiest creep class with absolutely no shame.
Or groups of 2 ~ 5 decently ranked Freeps will zerg solo unranked/R1s/R2s/R3s creeps who are still trying to get a feel of PvMP.
Or one time I was 80-something R1 scaled in the Moors and a Lieutenant Blackarrow just would not stop hounding me. I've also witnessed similar behaviour against other scaled/unranked players, from both sides of the table. So don't try and use that as a reason to hate on Wargs… Every class does this.

Overall I like the addition though. I have a level 39 LM who is rank 1!

Grats! Must have been fun doing that!

[The_Warg]

Grats! Must have been fun doing that!

I ranked my Beorning to Rank 5 at lvl 20 lol
Freavers and wargs around the same level were fairly easy, but then again it all depends on the skill of the person you are facing. I could barely hit the higher ranked creeps. Beornings also have surprisingly good survivability at lvl 20 xD

[Jeffor]

Ah well, think for a moment there. Wargs are one of the squishiest MP classes… Rank-to-rank against most freep classes (except Hunters/Burglars and Captains in some cases), they don't do well (unless they are a VERY good Warg or have played the game a long time). So any easier snack for them is a bit of a blessing. I'm not saying it's cool to pick on weaklings, but if you think about the situation and mindset Wargs have, it makes sense that the guys at the bottom of the food chain wouldn't mind playing nasty when they can.

And also something to keep in mind is it's not just "fail Wargs." Rank 13 Wardens will pick on UNRANKED beginner Wargs (or any MP class) without even batting an eye. Toughest freep class attacking the squishiest creep class with absolutely no shame.
Or groups of 2 ~ 5 decently ranked Freeps will zerg solo unranked/R1s/R2s/R3s creeps who are still trying to get a feel of PvMP.
Or one time I was 80-something R1 scaled in the Moors and a Lieutenant Blackarrow just would not stop hounding me. I've also witnessed similar behaviour against other scaled/unranked players, from both sides of the table. So don't try and use that as a reason to hate on Wargs… Every class does this.


Grats! Must have been fun doing that!

Yes both sides do choose targets of "opportunity." I had a few specific players in mind based on my observations during my level-scaled LM in the Moors experiment. Some of the fault lies with the design as well. As mentioned, level scaled players do still stand out making them even easier targets, but they also get no instructions, warnings, etc. Basically, it seems like it is just a diversion for players that already knows what's going on in the Moors. New, low level players are left to their own devices and often ignored.

In my little experiment, I leveled my LM to 40 and then stopped and geared up. I used all crafted teal items on level, except for the lower level audacity pieces. Having top gear for your level ensures that you will have decent stats when level scaled. With my gear I get 24k morale and 8k power which is not bad. I have actually been invited to groups which is rare for level scaled players. In a group the results were mixed due to level-scaling's wonkiness. Things like CC and healing I can do well. Mezzes, tar, power share and other skills work just fine and make me useful.

Other areas need improvement though. One big one is that DPS doesn't scale well. DPS on legendary weapons does not seem to scale so if you want to do any real damage you have to ditch the legendary weapon and get a crafted or looted one and forgo the legacies that go along with it. Not having many skill points hurts as well. Trait trees need a way to scale too or you just have a high level player that functions like a level 100 that has only spent 20 trait points. Something could be done there. Another shortcoming is lack of audacity. My level 40 can only earn three pieces and that's it. It makes no sense that a level scaled player wouldn't be able to get a full set if they wanted to. At least make the skins match the level 100 armor so these players don't stand out as much (or just allow cosmetics in the Moors ).

BTW that LM is now 40 and almost rank 6, but I have eased off for now. I might level to 50 and see what it's like then. I liked the idea of it but, then again, maybe to was just bored.

[Girum19]

Yes both sides do choose targets of "opportunity." I had a few specific players in mind based on my observations during my level-scaled LM in the Moors experiment. Some of the fault lies with the design as well. As mentioned, level scaled players do still stand out making them even easier targets, but they also get no instructions, warnings, etc. Basically, it seems like it is just a diversion for players that already knows what's going on in the Moors. New, low level players are left to their own devices and often ignored.

In my little experiment, I leveled my LM to 40 and then stopped and geared up. I used all crafted teal items on level, except for the lower level audacity pieces. Having top gear for your level ensures that you will have decent stats when level scaled. With my gear I get 24k morale and 8k power which is not bad. I have actually been invited to groups which is rare for level scaled players. In a group the results were mixed due to level-scaling's wonkiness. Things like CC and healing I can do well. Mezzes, tar, power share and other skills work just fine and make me useful.

Other areas need improvement though. One big one is that DPS doesn't scale well. DPS on legendary weapons does not seem to scale so if you want to do any real damage you have to ditch the legendary weapon and get a crafted or looted one and forgo the legacies that go along with it. Not having many skill points hurts as well. Trait trees need a way to scale too or you just have a high level player that functions like a level 100 that has only spent 20 trait points. Something could be done there. Another shortcoming is lack of audacity. My level 40 can only earn three pieces and that's it. It makes no sense that a level scaled player wouldn't be able to get a full set if they wanted to. At least make the skins match the level 100 armor so these players don't stand out as much (or just allow cosmetics in the Moors ).

BTW that LM is now 40 and almost rank 6, but I have eased off for now. I might level to 50 and see what it's like then. I liked the idea of it but, then again, maybe to was just bored.

level 70 and beyond you start to become more sturdy. keep the cc boots from moria and you are at the aud cap for cc reduction and do a combo of crafted and dunland rep gear and you will be a formidable opponent imo, my warden was kicking butt from lvl 77. I've also seen a video of a 75 guard more than holding his own against creeps. only thing which crippled me was mits adn the li scaling

[Nouri]

Ah well, think for a moment there. Wargs are one of the squishiest MP classes… Rank-to-rank against most freep classes (except Hunters/Burglars and Captains in some cases), they don't do well (unless they are a VERY good Warg or have played the game a long time). So any easier snack for them is a bit of a blessing. I'm not saying it's cool to pick on weaklings, but if you think about the situation and mindset Wargs have, it makes sense that the guys at the bottom of the food chain wouldn't mind playing nasty when they can.

And also something to keep in mind is it's not just "fail Wargs." Rank 13 Wardens will pick on UNRANKED beginner Wargs (or any MP class) without even batting an eye. Toughest freep class attacking the squishiest creep class with absolutely no shame.
Or groups of 2 ~ 5 decently ranked Freeps will zerg solo unranked/R1s/R2s/R3s creeps who are still trying to get a feel of PvMP.
Or one time I was 80-something R1 scaled in the Moors and a Lieutenant Blackarrow just would not stop hounding me. I've also witnessed similar behaviour against other scaled/unranked players, from both sides of the table. So don't try and use that as a reason to hate on Wargs… Every class does this.


Grats! Must have been fun doing that!

Check your PMs

[Jeffor]

level 70 and beyond you start to become more sturdy. keep the cc boots from moria and you are at the aud cap for cc reduction and do a combo of crafted and dunland rep gear and you will be a formidable opponent imo, my warden was kicking butt from lvl 77. I've also seen a video of a 75 guard more than holding his own against creeps. only thing which crippled me was mits adn the li scaling

That makes sense and toons like my hunter (87) and champ (75) fare much better because they have more points spent and they both have full (lower level) audacity sets which helps.

[Bucataru]

Before osgiliath, the level-scaled freeps were practically free food for most creeps. They could have beaten the occasional red creep though.
In osgiliath pvmp they tend to be one-shot. The stat bonuses on the buff "level-scaled xxx" for main-stat, vitality, audacity are removed when porting to osgiliath. It is quite disappointing.