Gothmog appears

[Zaddoc]

*Applause*

Well done Turbine. It seems all my threads I start are celebrating story based stuff. But this one was a real surprise.

Great twist, wonderful connection. Tolkien leaves Gothmog a very vague character in the novels but how he's worked into the story of LOTRO was absolutely masterwork. The instance itself was very cinematic and well done. If this is the kind of level of story telling we can again look foward to going ahead to Minas Tirith, I'll be very happy.

Awesome. I do agree with another thread I recall reading - give him a voice! Such dialogue unspoken with a great actor seems a missed oppertunity!

[HunterGreen]

Agreed on all points. The whole instance is so fulfilling, with callbacks to the books, to bits of the LOTRO story from so long ago, to things yet to come. And more than that, it's one of those moments that LOTRO is always reaching for: a way for my story to be important and interesting in its own right, not just in the shadow of the Fellowship's story, while not conflicting with or taking away from their story. A sense that things that Sam and Frodo didn't know about, so didn't include in the Red Book, might well have been just as compelling a story if someone else had written the book about those things.

[gildhur]

Just completed this tonight (first time I've been caught up with the books since Isengard). Wow. Just wow. I've been impressed every step of the way by little things like seeing the Sea for the first time near Dol Amroth, to the Paths of the Dead and giving that sequence agency and substance, to a brief glimpse of Minas Tirith from the ruins of Osgiliath... But I was not prepared for Gothmog. Wow. You've truly outdone yourself again, Turbine. If MadeOfLions is still writing the epics, he needs a raise and a nomination for president. The entire Grond instance had me on my toes with the apparitions. One of the creepiest and best developed encounters in the game. Truly amazing. I can't wait to see what happens next. Well done, y'all.

[lunettad]

I cannot agree more with everyone, I found this update very lore rich, in particular when you cross into Ithilien...with the CrossRoads...the Mumaks...Minas Tirith down there...the Morgulduin...I also had the impression to have had a glimpse of Minas Morgul from afar but then I thought it shouldn't have been that, but nonetheless...great work Turbine, this really felt like SoA-like quality content...congrats and thanks !

[TKH]

Will Gothmog become a powerful evil that require the strength of numberous unsung heroes?

Or will he become just another stain of rust on our blades, added to other countless personal deeds of our characters in Middle-Earth?

I cannot wait to see how the story is unfold :P

[siipperi]

Will Gothmog become a powerful evil that require the strength of numberous unsung heroes?

Or will he become just another stain of rust on our blades, added to other countless personal deeds of our characters in Middle-Earth?

I cannot wait to see how the story is unfold :P

I truly hope he doesnt meet his end in some buggy big battle or soloable book instance, ah proper way to see him go would be classic 6man instance or proper raid.

[Arnenna]

I truly hope he doesnt meet his end in some buggy big battle or soloable book instance, ah proper way to see him go would be classic 6man instance or proper raid.

I understand the concept that iconic battles like Minis Tirith need the atmosphere of an epic battle to make them seem authentic, but I have to agree with you. I don't see why they can't give us both, at the same time. Create some BB's for those that like them, but also classic instances as well. They managed it pretty well with the map table epic quests. We went into those solo, and the mobs could be handled, despite the massive battle going on all around us. They could use that approach for a 6/12 man, make it a classic style multi-boss encounter with lots of battles going on around in the background. Heck they could even make that an interesting feature that if a raid member accidentally pulls one from a background battle, they all join in - wipe fodder. They have managed to put three instances into mob ridden Osgiliath too. I do hope they can do it with Minas Tirith as well.

[OldMadeOfLions]

I was not prepared for Gothmog. Wow. You've truly outdone yourself again, Turbine. If MadeOfLions is still writing the epics, he needs a raise and a nomination for president.

Thanks for the kind words! Getting to craft stories in Middle-earth is very nearly reward enough, though.

And it was very difficult to keep quiet about Gothmog in the run-up to the release of that update, so it's nice to see that we were able to maintain the surprise.

MoL

[Milarien]

Just completed this tonight (first time I've been caught up with the books since Isengard). Wow. Just wow. I've been impressed every step of the way by little things like seeing the Sea for the first time near Dol Amroth, to the Paths of the Dead and giving that sequence agency and substance, to a brief glimpse of Minas Tirith from the ruins of Osgiliath... But I was not prepared for Gothmog. Wow. You've truly outdone yourself again, Turbine. If MadeOfLions is still writing the epics, he needs a raise and a nomination for president. The entire Grond instance had me on my toes with the apparitions. One of the creepiest and best developed encounters in the game. Truly amazing. I can't wait to see what happens next. Well done, y'all.

Hm, I guess I'd better find the time to get caught up on the books, too!

[siipperi]

I understand the concept that iconic battles like Minis Tirith need the atmosphere of an epic battle to make them seem authentic, but I have to agree with you. I don't see why they can't give us both, at the same time. Create some BB's for those that like them, but also classic instances as well. They managed it pretty well with the map table epic quests. We went into those solo, and the mobs could be handled, despite the massive battle going on all around us. They could use that approach for a 6/12 man, make it a classic style multi-boss encounter with lots of battles going on around in the background. Heck they could even make that an interesting feature that if a raid member accidentally pulls one from a background battle, they all join in - wipe fodder. They have managed to put three instances into mob ridden Osgiliath too. I do hope they can do it with Minas Tirith as well.

I dont generally speaking have anything against BBs (as long as there are other options for end game as well), but this kind of character truly deserves instance where we form fellowship or raid to take this character down. If its SoA styled book where you are forced to group or classic instance its totally ok for me but would be sad to see such a iconic lotro character just to be flushed down in some solo book or BB.

[LagunaD2]

Just to provide another viewpoint, I thought the Gondor landscape content was some of the best in the game, but I was deeply disappointed and annoyed by the Gothmog "plot twist".

I found "one villain for the price of two" clichéd, contrived, implausible and unimaginative recycling of an old idea.

I just groaned when it was revealed; there's not enough drama in Tolkien's *actual* story as the War of the Ring moves toward its denouement, so you have to invent *this*?

I can't say more with spoiling it, but two thumbs down from me on this one.

[greendarner]

Sadly, I agree with Laguna. My reaction was not ... positive.

[Theozor]

Just to provide another viewpoint, I thought the Gondor landscape content was some of the best in the game, but I was deeply disappointed and annoyed by the Gothmog "plot twist".

I found "one villain for the price of two" clichéd, contrived, implausible and unimaginative recycling of an old idea.

I just groaned when it was revealed; there's not enough drama in Tolkien's *actual* story as the War of the Ring moves toward its denouement, so you have to invent *this*?

I can't say more with spoiling it, but two thumbs down from me on this one.

That was my reaction to the twist during beta as well, but apparently I was in the minority. I felt like Kyle in the South Park episode about 9/11. "REALLY?!!"

[GoldrushSE]

I, too, thought it was great story-telling, loved all the references to past instances in that eerie illusion way and a very unexpected and cool twist.

I'm also really looking forward to what happens based on what Gothmog said concerning....(highlight to see spoilers)

....the fact that as long as Golodlir lives, he can't die.

-Goldrush
*******

[Eored88]

Just to provide another viewpoint, I thought the Gondor landscape content was some of the best in the game, but I was deeply disappointed and annoyed by the Gothmog "plot twist".

I found "one villain for the price of two" clichéd, contrived, implausible and unimaginative recycling of an old idea.

I just groaned when it was revealed; there's not enough drama in Tolkien's *actual* story as the War of the Ring moves toward its denouement, so you have to invent *this*?

I can't say more with spoiling it, but two thumbs down from me on this one.

ABSOLUTELY! This was awful. It was yet another moment where somebody over there took the works of Tolkien, threw it in the corner, and did whatever the hell they wanted. Contriving character-development that was never implied in the story is far too much creative license for my liking. Clearly, I am in the minority. But, at least it wasn't nearly as bad as the blatant and disrespectful butchering of Aragorn being reunited with the Grey company. at least with Gothmog there is enough ambiguity to allow for some creativity, rather then ripping up the story, lighting it on fire and doing whatever you want...

[lord_rastas]

Did anybody note the runes scratched onto the wheels of the battering ram? Wondering what they mean.

I posted a video of the cuts cent on YouTube where you can see them. Of course there is spoilers in it so for those that have not completed this quest don't watch it if you don't want to spoil the ending of this book quest

https://youtu.be/yItJj9Uvlzk

[Ellyllon]

I really, really enjoyed that last part of the story! For me, at least, it was very much unexpected, & fun, again, on alts to see the few clues along the way up the coast. It's been my favorite part of the story since we last encountered those 'old friends.' Nicely done!

[TKH]

Just to provide another viewpoint, I thought the Gondor landscape content was some of the best in the game, but I was deeply disappointed and annoyed by the Gothmog "plot twist".

I found "one villain for the price of two" clichéd, contrived, implausible and unimaginative recycling of an old idea.

I just groaned when it was revealed; there's not enough drama in Tolkien's *actual* story as the War of the Ring moves toward its denouement, so you have to invent *this*?

I can't say more with spoiling it, but two thumbs down from me on this one.

I think LOTRO Back-from-the-void Gothmog is still better than Peter Jackson's version, who is a quick-with-his-feet-for-comedy face-deformed-orc.

Drama toward the end of War of the Ring is Aragorn and Frodo's spotlights, where we are just observers and their assistants who fetch pipeweeds when they feel missing the taste. As anyone who read the books and watch the movie already know what will happen, I think to have our own nemesis to deal with and let Turbine's imagination go wild for a while before sticking back to the book.

The problem is how Turbine unfolds it. I hope it's not just a glorified mob like what they have done with the leader of Falcon Clan. While his death as a coward suit him, the presentation feels lacklusters.

[OldMadeOfLions]

at least it wasn't nearly as bad as the blatant and disrespectful butchering of Aragorn being reunited with the Grey company.

It's true that we moved Aragorn's reunion with the Grey Company up a day, from March 6th to March 5th. I disagree that it's a 'butchering of the story' or disrespectful in any way, given that videogame stories and novels have different considerations and things to take into account, especially where timing and times are concerned.

MoL

[TharbadThief]

ABSOLUTELY! This was awful. It was yet another moment where somebody over there took the works of Tolkien, threw it in the corner, and did whatever the hell they wanted.

Rather strong words considering we're talking about a character Tolkien wrote only a couple of lines of. Not even his race is known, only his position in the Morgul army - may as well entwine that kind of character into the story we've been taking part in. You must feel very uneasy when travelling and fighting alongside more prominent people (Elladan & Elrohir, Halbarad, Treebeard...).

Did anybody note the runes scratched onto the wheels of the battering ram? Wondering what they mean.

When I first saw Grond I took some screenshots (too dark to be posted here I think) and only transliterated a couple of lines. Obviously, as the lore says, they are some kinda evil spells or such, and are in Black Speech. If my old post-it note is correct, there are lines that include texts like:

KUL DUR(J)BUR(J)Z(NG)
& NAR(J)PUZ(NG)GUR(J)Z(NG)

NAR(J)SHOR(J)AZ(NG)
SHAI(Y)LUTATI(Y)Z(NG)I(Y)SH

... I know there are enough trolls and orcs in this forum - they could be better in translating the runes, than I am

((reason for edits: correcting typos and removing tautology))

[Vulcwen]

It's true that we moved Aragorn's reunion with the Grey Company up a day, from March 6th to March 5th. I disagree that it's a 'butchering of the story' or disrespectful in any way, given that videogame stories and novels have different considerations and things to take into account, especially where timing and times are concerned.

MoL

To give my honest feedback, it felt anticlimatic.. actually the entirety of update 13's epic story felt anticlimatic (aside from gun ain, that was a nice touch). I know you said some key things just weren't technically possible, but that doesn't change that the result didn't turn out well.

On the other hand, Gothmog was done well, with the references back to *spoilers* before you finally get to him. In fact even the start of the book was foreshadowing it a bit.. so I think that was well written, and well presented :P

[Moonrager]

Nice to see Kudos given when you feel it was warranted.

For those that don't agree... there is nothing for you here... move along... these are not the droids you are looking for.

[slayer7800]

Just to provide another viewpoint, I thought the Gondor landscape content was some of the best in the game, but I was deeply disappointed and annoyed by the Gothmog "plot twist".

I found "one villain for the price of two" clichéd, contrived, implausible and unimaginative recycling of an old idea.

I just groaned when it was revealed; there's not enough drama in Tolkien's *actual* story as the War of the Ring moves toward its denouement, so you have to invent *this*?

I can't say more with spoiling it, but two thumbs down from me on this one.

I don't have a problem with it being a previous villain, but for me it diminished my prior accomplishment of which I had very positive memories of.

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

ABSOLUTELY! This was awful. It was yet another moment where somebody over there took the works of Tolkien, threw it in the corner, and did whatever the hell they wanted. Contriving character-development that was never implied in the story is far too much creative license for my liking. Clearly, I am in the minority. But, at least it wasn't nearly as bad as the blatant and disrespectful butchering of Aragorn being reunited with the Grey company. at least with Gothmog there is enough ambiguity to allow for some creativity, rather then ripping up the story, lighting it on fire and doing whatever you want...

So taking someone who is an extremely minor character in the books, and presenting the character as a villain from our character history, allowing the conflict to become more personal, without actually contradicting anything in the books, and allowing a beautiful and terrible conundrum to be presented to another character from our past (I apologise for just saying 'character', but I don't want to leave spoilers) is awful in your eyes?

By that same token of 'contriving character-development that was never implied in the story', you'd consider the story of Amarthiel and Laerdan in Volume 1 to also be taking too much creative license - equally for the story of Bori, Brogur and the Hidden Guard. I enjoy both of these stories, and think that the major story elements and character developments are very well written, and don't stray too greatly from the lore or the atmosphere of the game. These stories are almost entirely original works within the LOTRO universe - there are crossovers in these earlier books, but characters such as Amarthiel are original, and the sentence about Gothmog hardly counts as a detailed characterisation by Tolkien - if I remember correctly, its not even stated what he is, other than a general of Sauron. If we expected Turbine (and particularly MoL) not to come up with any original storyline, then the world of LOTRO would be far more empty, and far less interesting, than it currently is, and to me that would greatly lessen the appeal of playing the game.

As for the denouement of Volume 3, I agree that it wasn't all that it could have been - but I think MoL explained that this was due to technological constraints, and my issue with the ending wasn't the placing of the meeting with the Grey Company (to be honest, I don't think it mattered where they met them, and it was necessary for the completion of the story of Lothrandir, which had tugged at the heart strings for a long time), but the 'defeat' of Saruman, and I found the cutscene rather anticlimactic. That said, Saruman isn't finished yet, and I'm hoping for a better ending to that particular story in the Shire - its just that as the villain that we'd been facing since the start of Volume 3, his defeat wasn't quite as special as I might have liked (but then I'm aware that around U13 when it was released, Turbine was undergoing significant upheaval, so that may explain why the story content at that point wasn't at the level which we'd come to expect from them).

The big story issue I had (and this, I think, was also due to budgetary and time constraints), was the jarring gap between the end of Volume 3, and the beginning of Volume 4 - particularly as it was essentially a continuation of the same story. One moment, we're outside the destroyed Tower of Orthanc alongside Gandalf and Aragorn, and then we're sent (by an auto bestow quest - oh, how I hate those - its not even a mail :P ) to Eowyn - Aragorn has already headed into the Paths of the Dead, and we're sent to follow, without so much as a glance back towards the Rohirrim who will soon be marching off to war.

The Muster of the Rohirrim is a strong memory of the books and movies for me, and to skip over it, after all the time we spent with the Rohirrim seemed strange to me - an excellent epilogue of Vol 3/prologue of Vol 4 would comprise of us going off to summon the Rohirrim from across the Eastemnet and Westemnet, bringing Harding, Fastred, Elfmar, Gisling, Ingbert, Ingmarr, Thrymm, Guthlaf, Cuthing, Herubrand, Herefara and Nothmar, in addition to their horsemen, as well as Horn, Nona and Corudan to Dunharrow for the muster. MoL has already acknowledged that this wasn't going to be seen as a prologue/epilogue, though I still hold out hope for it between U17 and U18. However, he did mention that we might see these characters join those already at Dunharrow (Thane Magla and his family, and Edric - no longer labelled as Thane, interestingly - although he did attack Eowyn, so that makes sense :P ), and if we don't see a proper mustering, then this should suffice for covering up what I feel was quite a large omission from the story.

However, despite this quibble, the writing, and the plot (other than the Ergothorn story, but then we know that was originally intended to play out in a different fashion!) has been top notch, and I personally saw Vol. 4, Book 3's ending as the strongest story development in the volume so far, bringing back nostalgia (which is very apparent in the quest text, and in that final instance, and creating a dilemma for our characters) - to describe this embellishment of Tolkien's brief reference as awful is not something I can condone, or even understand.

[Reximus]

Just to provide another viewpoint, I thought the Gondor landscape content was some of the best in the game, but I was deeply disappointed and annoyed by the Gothmog "plot twist".

I found "one villain for the price of two" clichéd, contrived, implausible and unimaginative recycling of an old idea.

I just groaned when it was revealed; there's not enough drama in Tolkien's *actual* story as the War of the Ring moves toward its denouement, so you have to invent *this*?

I can't say more with spoiling it, but two thumbs down from me on this one.

I find this attitude kind of strange considering how often Tolkien himself uses the same device. This is the very nature of these enemies.