Update 17.

[Pavlosh]

How about this: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...14#post7469714 ?

How about constant attacks on BB's (which MoL develop too as i know)? And people speak not for themselves but pretending they are 'echoes of majority'. And noone likes BB's because well he and 10 his friends don't like them! Again, NO, it doesn't work that way.

That is not an attack on MoL, it is an attack on the Embarrassment that is the Loot Tables. Loot Tables which can reward a failed side quest in Pelagir Duo, possibly the easiest content in the game, with a Gold Ring, and Supreme Morale Essence. And yet battle your way through Dome T1, and the loot won't even pay your repair bill.

As for BBs, imo, they suck. Some people enjoy them, I don't mind Pelagir - which is more classic instance in it's play-style and Deeping Wall raid at least requires some organisation. The rest are real borefests.

They will need to make sure the drop rate is good for essences, merits and other goodies, or people will be back on Pela as soon as they get their Gold Cloaks.

[Almagnus1]

How about constant attacks on BB's (which MoL develop too as i know)? And people speak not for themselves but pretending they are 'echoes of majority'. And noone likes BB's because well he and 10 his friends don't like them! Again, NO, it doesn't work that way.

The reason why people hate BB's so much is they are trivially easy to rig to autocomplete without further intervention from yourself as you sit and wait for minutes at a time. You also no longer play as your class (a captain, burg, hunter, RK, and guardian all play identically in BBs), but as this new class that's only available in BB's as it's (yet another) new system that's bolted on to give us a sense of progression within the BBs. The entire fiasco is topped off by the "reward" of class points that forces all players to do BBs whether they want to or not because there is not a hard cap for class points, so you are weaker if you don't get them all.

So yeah, if calling a spade a spade is an attack on Turbine...

[Arnenna]

Wow, this went South very fast. I only went to make some supper O-O

Chill guys. MoL is reading (or he was at least), let's try to keep it that way.

[bucko39]

Wow, this went South very fast. I only went to make some supper O-O

Chill guys. MoL is reading (or he was at least), let's try to keep it that way.

Agreed, however, I think MoL may have left awhile ago--once he realized he opened pandora's box

[Almagnus1]

Wow, this went South very fast. I only went to make some supper O-O

Chill guys. MoL is reading (or he was at least), let's try to keep it that way.

It's cause some can't distinguish a "this sucks, here's why" post from a "this sucks" post. The former can actually be very constructive feedback, the latter can be borderline trolling. Calling the former the latter is just wrong and dismissing possible useful information for MoL, or any others at Turbine.

And part of the issue why we're all so toxic is that we're very passionate about this game, yet we've been frustrated because what was given a lot of dev time wasn't for a very, very long period of time. Another part of this whole toxicity issue is using Bullroarer as a preview server, without actually having a Beta where things change significantly, or something gets pulled because Turbine is of the mind set that it's better to release now and patch later, rather than release largely bug free. The entire Ice Dragon fiasco with Draigoch was proof of this, as he froze and provided much frustration and nobody could fix it because it was too complex for the client and server side to handle adequately.

[Arnenna]

It's cause some can't distinguish a "this sucks, here's why" post from a "this sucks" post. The former can actually be very constructive feedback, the latter can be borderline trolling. Calling the former the latter is just wrong and dismissing possible useful information for MoL, or any others at Turbine.

And part of the issue why we're all so toxic is that we're very passionate about this game, yet we've been frustrated because what was given a lot of dev time wasn't for a very, very long period of time. Another part of this whole toxicity issue is using Bullroarer as a preview server, without actually having a Beta where things change significantly, or something gets pulled because Turbine is of the mind set that it's better to release now and patch later, rather than release largely bug free. The entire Ice Dragon fiasco with Draigoch was proof of this, as he froze and provided much frustration and nobody could fix it because it was too complex for the client and server side to handle adequately.

Yes, I get it

Draigoch has bugged out on me plenty of times, one quite recent, so I'm not sure what's up with that ol dragon. I can live with that though believe it or not, what really really really bugs me about that raid is the part where he says "I am Draigoch".

Clearly the voice actor speaking for the red dragon wasn't Welsh I have to turn my game sound off for that bit, drives me nuts.

[bucko39]

Another part of this whole toxicity issue is using Bullroarer as a preview server, without actually having a Beta where things change significantly, or something gets pulled because Turbine is of the mind set that it's better to release now and patch later, rather than release largely bug free.

+10 to this specific point. Per Turbine, we've had our last build of Update 17 on BR. That last build had several issues with the Big Battles. We all know what happened when Pelargir (Update 15) went live. Will history repeat itself or will this be the time actions speak louder than words and we get a bug-free set of Epic Battles (it's the principle of it for me, as I won't be playing either of them)?

Back to the topic...MoL, I appreciate the fact you chimed in at all and would have liked more back and forth with you on ideas for instances/raids. But I can understand if you would rather leave the hornet's nest alone.

[Montrandir]

Just announced on stream that U17 is launching tomorrow btw guys. QuartermasterU announced it

[Thorsock]

How about constant attacks on BB's (which MoL develop too as i know)? And people speak not for themselves but pretending they are 'echoes of majority'. And noone likes BB's because well he and 10 his friends don't like them! Again, NO, it doesn't work that way.

I'll speak for myself. I loathe BBs. I feel insulted every time I have to abandon the play style I enjoy just to engage in thirty minutes of activity for which I would never pay if that was all a game offered. Thankfully, I can usually schedule my BB interludes when there is a ballgame on to keep me distracted. Is there anyone out there who enjoys BBs so much that they would subscribe to a game that was "All-BB, All the Time!"? The only reason I ever enter a BB is because someone at Turbine decided that they should lock Epic quests behind such tripe. I do each BB in the Epic line once per character and I never run it again on that character. Never.

If Turbine wanted to lock the mostest uberest, shiniest, gottahaveitcan'tlivewithoutit loot behind BBs? Fine. I can do without. But even the players I know who run BBs constantly aren't doing so because the content is so engaging ... they're farming gear and "filling gaps" in their BB achievements ... they're grinding. Which is perfectly fine. For a side-game. One shouldn't lock Epic content behind a side-game. Of course, I felt the same way when I learned that the Moria and Mirkwood Epics were locked behind skirmishes ... because I don't like skirmishes either (but at least in a skirmish, I get to be a Hunter rather than an Artillerist). I still don't like being forced to skirmish my way through those Epics (and, yes, regardless of my character level, I set the skirmish level for the lowest possible and trudge on).

Now, neither of my complaints are deal-breakers. I still play, despite such poor planning and design. But let's not act as if BBs are engaging and enjoyable play. They are, at best, hurdles to be cleared that share no DNA with LOTRO's usual game mechanics.

[Wanderv]

With WOW's last years expansion I think they got 8 dungeons & 2 raids & then another update with 1 more raid at least.

Though the game lost ~40% of population in a half of year... Speaking about raiders and their influence on a population stability...

Now, what I do not know.... is how this relates to other MMORPG games. Is 10 raids a lot? Is it really low? How does it compare to say WoW or Rift or TERA or Elder Scrolls Online or Final Fantasy or SWTOR or whatever other MMORPG is being played today, because I am not playing those....

Problem here is that not all games have sorts of scaling system which 'accumulate' old instances on an every new cap. Such games like WoW, EQ2, Tera and may be FF14 have rotation of content (though they also started to reuse old instances in some form). WoW has 3 raids (though very big) on a current cap, EQ2 has 5 raids, FF14 has 3 raids, Tera... i'm not sure it has raids at all. GW2, TESO, Rift and SWTOR (as i remember) have scaling (or something like that) so you may compare Lotro to them. GW2 for example just have got its first raid , SWTOR has 9 raids (operations), TESO has 3 raids, Rift has 8 raids.

So as you may see, Lotro isn't that bad at raid content though it obviously isn't raid-centered game as its raids are quite small and not too much hard comparing to other games.

[Aedfrith]

Please just.. no.
No more Big Battles, give us proper instances. Myself and others I know don't want to see these created as 15 minute partially afk/mindless dps fests.
These are the biggest and most epic confrontations in Middle Earth that are coming up.. please don't make them big battles.
I'm begging here...

I agree with you, Jilly. But there's what we WANT to happen, and then what WB/Turbine will decide to do. As with much of LOTRO since Dunland, these are very, very different things.

[bucko39]

FF14 has 3 raids

Wrong. FFXIV had a total of 20 raids when level cap was 50 (in FFXIV, a raid is considered group content requiring anywhere from 8 to 24 players). That number, of course, doesn't include the 17 level cap dungeons.
When the level cap was raised to 60, they introduced 8 more raids and 10 more dungeons, with a couple more coming with update 3.1 in early November.

If you are going to hate, at least get your facts straight *

(* that unintentionally rhymed, my apologies) LOL

[Wanderv]

That is not an attack on MoL, it is an attack on the Embarrassment that is the Loot Tables.

but MoL don't do the loot...

The reason why people hate BB's so much is they are trivially easy to rig to autocomplete without further intervention from yourself as you sit and wait for minutes at a time.

Excuse me but i can't accept this. 'To complete BB' means to complete it with PLATINUM, In no way you can complete any BB afking. That's just not true.

Agreed, however, I think MoL may have left awhile ago--once he realized he opened pandora's box

"First they call you a troll, then they ignore you, finally they agree with you"

It's cause some can't distinguish a "this sucks, here's why" post from a "this sucks" post. The former can actually be very constructive feedback, the latter can be borderline trolling. Calling the former the latter is just wrong and dismissing possible useful information for MoL, or any others at Turbine.

Also people should distinguish themselves from 'everyone' or 'majority' and do not say things like 'everyone hates BBs'. Such things are also close to trolling. May be majority of raiders doesn't like BBs but in my casual kinship majority likes BBs. Knowing that casuals are REAL majority of players i may extrapolate that at least statement 'majority hates BBs' is not true.

[Wanderv]

Wrong. FFXIV had a total of 20 raids when level cap was 50 (in FFXIV, a raid is considered group content requiring anywhere from 8 to 24 players). That number, of course, doesn't include the 17 level cap dungeons.
When the level cap was raised to 60, they introduced 8 more raids and 10 more dungeons, with a couple more coming with update 3.1 in early November.

If you are going to hate, at least get your facts straight *

(* that unintentionally rhymed, my apologies) LOL

Well you should choose do i 'hate' (negative emotions usually without facts) or i have not straight facts. It's different things.

I took info from here: http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Dungeons - i see just 3 raids for lvl 60

[bucko39]

"First they call you a troll, then they ignore you, finally they agree with you"

Not even close. The pandora's box I was referring to was when he asked what areas have called for a traditional raid and/or instance in-game. Your rhetoric, though typical, is not what I was referring to.
Despite the nonsense that comes out of your mouth, best to put you back on ignore and leave you there.
Safe journey.

[Geventh]

Listen, there are some blunt statements that need to be made here. I understand that the story in LOTRO is a sacred thing to many people who play this game. I know that some people would be "outraged" if you came up with some raid where a balrog inserts itself in the battle of Pelennor Fields. I for one don't care about it, or enjoy the story aspect of ANY MMO. I think questing is the worst thing to happen to MMO's, and if it were up to me there would be no leveling, just end game content.

With that said, LOTRO is an MMO. Within the MMO genre, there are some standard expectations.
They are as follows:

1. At ANY given time, there needs to be a relevant, rewarding and challenging raid with several tiers to allow people to learn it at their skill level, and adjust appropriately. We see this with T1, T2 and T2C raid tiers.

2. There must be smaller-group instances to fill the gaps between raiding and allow new players to get geared for raids.

3. There must be filler content and extraneous daily quests for players to fill their time with.

4. There has to be a system of rewarding and meaningful character development to keep people interested.

5. PVP isn't standard in all MMO's, but if you're going to have it, you need to keep it balanced, fair, and fun.

LOTRO has fulfilled precisely NONE of these expectations since Helm's Deep released. Literally. Not. A. Single. One. We haven't had a single new challenging multi-boss raid in what, 2 years?

Now, I'm going to come from a development viewpoint here, being a programmer myself. The LOTRO team works with an outdated, god-awful engine that wasn't even good when Asheron's Call released back in the day. I'm sure it's not intuitive or easy to work with like modern game engines. I very highly doubt anything the dev team does is "drag and drop" like the Unity, Unreal 4, or Source engine. So I cut them a modicum of slack for that. They do what they can with the resources they have and the tools they're given.

That said, I've been CONSTANTLY baffled by the priorities the LOTRO team seems to maintain. This game has begun to cater more and more to casual players who sign on for a few hours a day, roleplay a little bit, buy some cosmetics, and then move on to something else. I mean no offense to people who enjoy things like that in the game, but you're not part of the end game community that gives people something to level up for and aspire to be a part of. You're not the ones populating the moors or Osgiliath and paying 15 dollars a month for VIP. So why are players like them being focused on in development? There are THOUSANDS of hours of quests, hundreds and hundreds of cosmetic items, and god knows what other aspects of the game us end game raiders/PvP'ers don't give half a cow about.

I've seen what the dev team is capable of. Ost Dunhoth at level 65 level cap was one of the GREATEST raids i've ever seen in an MMO. I'd go as far as to say I think it's actually the best. Tower of Orthanc was also fantastic once the initial bugs were ironed out. Rift, Helegrod, Dar Narbugud...the list of amazing raids this game has deep in its closet is incredible. So where is the game LOTRO used to be? I just don't get it.

Are you guys (the Dev Team) just not paying attention to any of us on here? Do you not care? Do you have a skewed philosophy that casual players who drop 20 dollars on cosmetics on time and quit are keeping your game alive more than people (like me) who have spent LITERALLY thousands of dollars on Subscriptions and store items to improve my characters?

I have a really hard time that any of you guys developing this content are proud of what you're doing. I just can't believe that after I've seen what you can create when you have direction and ambition. I hope at least a few of you take the time to listen to the genuine pleas of someone who longs for what LOTRO used to be.

Great post! +1

[bucko39]

Well you should choose do i 'hate' (negative emotions usually without facts) or i have not straight facts. It's different things.

I took info from here: http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Dungeons - i see just 3 raids for lvl 60

Sigh...do you see where the column marked "Turns" under raids. That means there are four (or five) different raids within that cluster.
Here is a better link to educate you. There are two tabs at the top, one for A Realm Reborn (50) and another for Heavensward (60).

http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Category:Raid

Apology accepted

[Scirocco]

With WOW's last years expansion I think they got 8 dungeons & 2 raids & then another update with 1 more raid at least.

Last year's expansion provided a short term boost, but WoW subs have continued to drop since then.

Number of subs peaked at around 12.1 M in 2010.

It had dropped to 8.2 M in 2013, when approximately 90-110K were leaving per month.

In the 4Q, 2014 (Warlords of Draenor was released in Nov. 2014), the number of subs bounced from a low of about 7M up to 10M. But that dropped back down to 7.1 M the following quarter.

As on June 2015, the number of subs had dropped to 5.6 M.

So, while there was a nice bump for a few months, the expansion's dungeons and raids didn't keep the numbers up.

[Wanderv]

Sigh...do you see where the column marked "Turns" under raids. That means there are four (or five) different raids within that cluster.
Here is a better link to educate you. There are two tabs at the top, one for A Realm Reborn (50) and another for Heavensward (60).

http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Category:Raid

Apology accepted

Uhm no. These 'turns' or 'floors' contain just 1 boss encounter. Then compare with number of boss encounters in Lotro - that would be fair. Helegrod - 7, OD - 6, BG - 3, Erebor - 3. Sum: 19.

And i'm not counting 19 raid skirmishes and raid side-quests in DW (some of them are quite hard and not easier than some good classic raid bosses).

[bucko39]

Uhm no. These 'turns' or 'floors' contain just 1 boss encounter. Then compare with number of boss encounters in Lotro - that would be fair. Helegrod - 7, OD - 6, BG - 3, Erebor - 3. Sum: 19.

And i'm not counting 19 raid skirmishes and raid side-quests in DW (some of them are quite hard and not easier than some good classic raid bosses).

Again, no. You are honestly counting BG as 3 separate raids, simply because it has three mini bosses and one major boss at the end? You've lost it.
The turns/raids in FFXIV have several mini bosses and major bosses in each raid. I would link videos that show how involved each one of those are, but judging by the straws you're clinging to it won't even matter.
One of us has actually played the game (not you) while the other one is trying to defend his argument by what he can interpret (incorrectly, I might add) off a web page. Just give it up.

[Hecki]

The LOTRO game servers will be brought down Tuesday October 27th from 8-11AM Eastern for update 17.

https://twitter.com/lotro

Is that right? o.O

[djheydt]

https://twitter.com/lotro

Is that right? o.O

Well, interesting. They must have got much more information
out of Saturday's stress test than they had hoped for.

[Almagnus1]

Uhm no. These 'turns' or 'floors' contain just 1 boss encounter. Then compare with number of boss encounters in Lotro - that would be fair. Helegrod - 7, OD - 6, BG - 3, Erebor - 3. Sum: 19.

And i'm not counting 19 raid skirmishes and raid side-quests in DW (some of them are quite hard and not easier than some good classic raid bosses).

Eh no.

After having seen all of the LotRO raid content, and how much movement is involved with the FFXIV bosses, on a boss fight per boss fight basis, FFXIV wins because they have worked AE telegraphing into everything in the game, so the bosses make heavy usage of it.

And come back after you've completed all 11 instances of the level 50 Coils of Bahamut (all three parts), and then say that they're all simplistic encounters.

[bucko39]

Well, interesting. They must have got much more information
out of Saturday's stress test than they had hoped for.

I think you may have misunderstood what the test on Saturday was for...

[siipperi]

What's compelling to you isn't compelling to me; and vice-versa. Oh, isn't this a Role-Playing Game, or is it only the combat role that counts?

You fail to understand the point which was already seen on your first post. If turbine can't develope content that keeps us busy and involved for whole duration of it there is problem. Sure nobody doesn't take it away from you if you want RP something in the instance but there clearly is HUGE gaps in between quests on BBs that clearly should be fixed, for example on pelargir you need to stand around for ages on solo version when grey company walks in, yet we have no such period on 6man version. This same is for example on glittering caves 3man where you need to wait around for ages when nothing happens.