Plot hole in volume 4 book 4? (Spoilers)

[The_Rohanic_Elf]

In Volume 4 book 4 chapter 8, the player character is talking with Denethor.
Denethor says that Hirgon (bearer of the Red Arrow to ask for Rohan's aid) never made it to Rohan, whereas the player character knows for a fact that Hirgon did make it to Rohan (Hirgon's Red Arrow is the reason Theoden is leaving Rohan at the end of Volume 3).
It seems like a plot hole that the player character doesn't mention that Hirgon did in fact make it to Rohan contrary to Denethor's belief.

[Esterian]

In Volume 4 book 4 chapter 8, the player character is talking with Denethor.
Denethor says that Hirgon (bearer of the Red Arrow to ask for Rohan's aid) never made it to Rohan, whereas the player character knows for a fact that Hirgon did make it to Rohan (Hirgon's Red Arrow is the reason Theoden is leaving Rohan at the end of Volume 3).
It seems like a plot hole that the player character doesn't mention that Hirgon did in fact make it to Rohan contrary to Denethor's belief.

Do you think he would have listend?

[andys90]

Also it bothered me that we were asked to deliver news of Pelargir to either Gandalf or Faramir, but never bothered to mention it when speaking to Gandalf (though he seems to know of it later.).

[Davco]

In Volume 4 book 4 chapter 8, the player character is talking with Denethor.
Denethor says that Hirgon (bearer of the Red Arrow to ask for Rohan's aid) never made it to Rohan, whereas the player character knows for a fact that Hirgon did make it to Rohan (Hirgon's Red Arrow is the reason Theoden is leaving Rohan at the end of Volume 3).
It seems like a plot hole that the player character doesn't mention that Hirgon did in fact make it to Rohan contrary to Denethor's belief.

I think you may be confusing the knowledge that we the players have from reading the book with what your in-game character actually experiences. In the game timeline, our hero arrives at Dunharrow and talks to Eowyn AFTER Aragorn has entered the Paths of the Dead, but BEFORE Theoden arrives for the muster of Rohan. Our character never speaks to Theoden or witnesses the meeting with Hirgon, so he/she wouldn't even know who Hirgon was.

We know from the books that Theoden does receive the Red Arrow and agrees to ride to Gondor. Hirgon rides ahead, using fresh horses at each of the beacons along the way to return faster than the Rohirrim are capable of doing. He arrives to find the Rammas overrun and attempts to flee back to Theoden and is struck down on the road. The Rohirrim later find his body, still clutching the Red Arrow and riding away from Gondor. This is the image that Denethor shows to you, which is misinterpreted by him to mean that Hirgon never delivered the plee for help.

Even though our character would know nothing of Hirgon or the Red Arrow, they should still know that the Rohirrim are coming, but Gandalf himself told Denethor that when he arrived in Minas Tirith, and it didn't seem to make any difference in Denethor's state of mind. I wouldn't consider it a plot hole.

[OldMadeOfLions]

Also it bothered me that we were asked to deliver news of Pelargir to either Gandalf or Faramir, but never bothered to mention it when speaking to Gandalf (though he seems to know of it later.).

Yeah, I probably should have had some narrative text in there where you explicitly tell him about it. Without that in there, I'd say that maybe the most likely time to have given him the message would be during 'A Matter of Lineage' when you tell him about your experience in Osgiliath -- during the loading screen on the way to the Old Archives.

MoL

[Thruili]

Yeah, I probably should have had some narrative text in there where you explicitly tell him about it. Without that in there, I'd say that maybe the most likely time to have given him the message would be during 'A Matter of Lineage' when you tell him about your experience in Osgiliath -- during the loading screen on the way to the Old Archives.

MoL

I have to say, I really like your interpretation of 'until the King returns'. Why has this not crossed my mind before? Especially considering that he is my favourite character in all of Lotro. And the return from Osgiliath is truly epic as well. Or the Palantír experience.
By the way, are the names Orolang, Calatúr, Silmahtar and Macilnis invented by you or by the professor himself?
Yet besides all the praising there are some things I dislike about the new epic book: The quests "The Council of Gondor" and "A City besieged" as they involve far too much running around the City doing errands.
But otherwise a great Job again!

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

I've just finished the latest book of the epic, and it is truly impressive - thank you very much MoL!

But I have a question (in amongst other smaller ones, and this involves BIG spoilers for the end of Book 4):

SPOILERS BELOW















If everything since we went to see Denethor was part of our 'dream' state caused by the Palantir and Denethor's suggestion, does this mean that everything that we do after Chapter 8 is 'ret-conned?' The Withered Tree stuff I can understand as being part of Denethor's fevered imagination, born out of despair, but does it equally mean that according to our player timelines that the BBs which we fought were simply part of a dream state?

I get that this is necessary to allow us to escape Minas Tirith to arrive with the Rohirrim in the next update, but I wondered if MoL could clarify - according to the timeline, has the Siege of Minas Tirith begun yet? And if not, then presumably we're never going to see the ACTUAL breaking of the gates by Grond.

P.S. Would it be possible to improve the look of the Witch King in the Hammer of the Underworld? In the Darkest Hour, he looks properly impressive and intimidating, but in the BB, he looks like a bog standard Nazgul (less impressive that the Black Blade of Lebennin that we recently fought, and much less intimidating than Gothmog), and it would be great if this could be fixed. Thanks!

[Erennor]

I think you may be confusing the knowledge that we the players have from reading the book with what your in-game character actually experiences. In the game timeline, our hero arrives at Dunharrow and talks to Eowyn AFTER Aragorn has entered the Paths of the Dead, but BEFORE Theoden arrives for the muster of Rohan. Our character never speaks to Theoden or witnesses the meeting with Hirgon, so he/she wouldn't even know who Hirgon was.

We know from the books that Theoden does receive the Red Arrow and agrees to ride to Gondor. Hirgon rides ahead, using fresh horses at each of the beacons along the way to return faster than the Rohirrim are capable of doing. He arrives to find the Rammas overrun and attempts to flee back to Theoden and is struck down on the road. The Rohirrim later find his body, still clutching the Red Arrow and riding away from Gondor. This is the image that Denethor shows to you, which is misinterpreted by him to mean that Hirgon never delivered the plee for help.

Even though our character would know nothing of Hirgon or the Red Arrow, they should still know that the Rohirrim are coming, but Gandalf himself told Denethor that when he arrived in Minas Tirith, and it didn't seem to make any difference in Denethor's state of mind. I wouldn't consider it a plot hole.

I wanted to reply, but then I read your post and you have said all : ) Very well said and explained indeed. This is also a matter that touches upon role play; things that our characters would normally know, and other things that they would not (unless through unusual experiences).

[Olgomil]

I've just finished the latest book of the epic, and it is truly impressive - thank you very much MoL!

I was totally take by surprise when the situation was clear about the "dream/nightmare" state of the few last quests played, my first comment (to myself) was: its brilliant!
Then, my congrats and thanks to Mol for a very good book 4.

Sergio :-)

[OldMadeOfLions]

...there are some things I dislike about the new epic book: The quests "The Council of Gondor" and "A City besieged" as they involve far too much running around the City doing errands.

I can understand that, although none of those quests consist of errands just for the sake of errands; each one has something to say about the mood in the city or story elements still to come. I know 'The Council of Gondor' gets a fair amount of grief for the two-minute wait and for the extensive running about, but it *was* intended to be a quest about bureaucracy and the difficulty of running a city in such a situation... so maybe it was a little too successful at that.

There is probably a route to be taken through this book of the Epic that minimizes the time it takes, but I'm generally more interested in covering the themes of the story and painting a thorough picture of the situation than in making it as streamlined as possible. A city built in seven levels is never going to be the most convenient place for questing, but maybe there are some improvements we can add to it to make it a little more palatable. Probably no elevators, though.

MoL

[Grimdoin_EU]

A city built in seven levels is never going to be the most convenient place for questing

QFT!

Just about to finish it on my main and not looking forward to doing U17 quests on all my alts... But the trait point involved....

[LeRaginAsian]

I can understand that, although none of those quests consist of errands just for the sake of errands; each one has something to say about the mood in the city or story elements still to come. I know 'The Council of Gondor' gets a fair amount of grief for the two-minute wait and for the extensive running about, but it *was* intended to be a quest about bureaucracy and the difficulty of running a city in such a situation... so maybe it was a little too successful at that.

Going to play devil's advocate here.... I really enjoyed every element of book 4. Minas Tirith is HUGE, and the quests that sent me running back and forth helped me learn the map and how to use the quick horses under the pier most efficiently. It's also neat to see people using the wide variety of rep steeds to get around again.

I was surprised by the two-minute wait because of how rare those quests have become, but it felt very realistic (the guy is going to take some time to sift through and rewrite that many notes). I took the opportunity to enjoy the Dome's design and I recommend everyone else do the same!

[Erennor]

I can understand that, although none of those quests consist of errands just for the sake of errands; each one has something to say about the mood in the city or story elements still to come. I know 'The Council of Gondor' gets a fair amount of grief for the two-minute wait and for the extensive running about, but it *was* intended to be a quest about bureaucracy and the difficulty of running a city in such a situation... so maybe it was a little too successful at that.

There is probably a route to be taken through this book of the Epic that minimizes the time it takes, but I'm generally more interested in covering the themes of the story and painting a thorough picture of the situation than in making it as streamlined as possible.

And please continue to do so, for it is greatly valued. If some people do not like the time spent, then it is not a 'problem' that needs to be 'fixed' or changed. Others enjoy taking their time to experience new content and appreciate every moment of it, even if it be to go here and there, for like you have said, it drives the story forward and unfolds it in a thorough manner. This is after all the world of Middle-earth. It deserves such depth and length as you have given it through various quest lines.

I hope you will not be discouraged by such comments of taking too long. It would take away, rather than add to the game experience, if everything was streamlined. LotRO has two very great strengths, and the main draw for people outside the game to come: the world, and the story/ies. If shortcuts are taken in these, then it lessens the great worth and beauty of this game.

[OldMadeOfLions]

this involves BIG spoilers for the end of Book 4:

SPOILERS FOR THE END OF BOOK 4 IN MINAS TIRITH

SPOILERS

SPOILERS

The way the Dev Tracker works means I'm a little hesitant to answer any of the really spoilery stuff for now. But I will say that you're correct on the timeline -- Chapters 8 and 13 are the furthest ahead we get, and the enemy hasn't encircled the city. What that means is probably fairly obvious, but I'll leave that up to your imagination for now.

MoL

[Maegren]

maybe there are some improvements we can add to it to make it a little more palatable.

suggestion!!!

split this up into two types of quest line...the action quests and the "getting to know the city and its people" quests...and make it really clear up front what people are getting into...and make the rewards for the "getting to know the city and its people" quests really worth it...

some even more specific suggestions...

send people up to the north gate and the south gate in the epic as soon as possible if they want action...

for the getting to know the city and its people quests....how about....as a reward...a brooch / gem of Minas Tirith (or...for later epics...an elf stone....) that slots into an essence slot and gives you permanent + hope that stacks with the hope tokens...it is such a long long time since the bounders cap...

oh and personally I started off getting really grumpy about the epics...and by the end was so moved by the Merry Swan quests...knowing what comes next...I really felt Minas Tirith was worth fighting for...

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

SPOILERS FOR THE END OF BOOK 4 IN MINAS TIRITH

SPOILERS

SPOILERS

The way the Dev Tracker works means I'm a little hesitant to answer any of the really spoilery stuff for now. But I will say that you're correct on the timeline -- Chapters 8 and 13 are the furthest ahead we get, and the enemy hasn't encircled the city. What that means is probably fairly obvious, but I'll leave that up to your imagination for now.

MoL

Thanks for that clarification, and yea, I understand that you don't want to give too much away.

But on another note, I was a tad disappointed at not seeing the Silent Street, or any of the tombs of Minas Tirith (probably one of the most famous parts of the city, from the books) - I wonder if this could be added to the landscape version of the city, or whether we'd ever see it in the epic?

[OldMadeOfLions]

I was a tad disappointed at not seeing the Silent Street, or any of the tombs of Minas Tirith...

Well, we didn't just forget about them, if that helps. We've always found it valuable to keep some areas in reserve so we have room to grow.

MoL

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

Well, we didn't just forget about them, if that helps. We've always found it valuable to keep some areas in reserve so we have room to grow.

MoL

Excellent - I was worried that all we'd get of that story was the first instance of the book (which, by the way, was epic), but I'm glad to know you're still thinking about that part of the story

[Reximus]

A city built in seven levels is never going to be the most convenient place for questing, but maybe there are some improvements we can add to it to make it a little more palatable.

Maybe a quick travel option to each tier, like you have the horse that is a door back to the front gate, or a "stable" to each tier's gate. Speaking of which, I was kind of surprised that you guys allowed mounts on the top, leaving us a privilege even Mithrandir isn't afforded in the book.

[Southy2010]

Maybe a quick travel option to each tier, like you have the horse that is a door back to the front gate, or a "stable" to each tier's gate. Speaking of which, I was kind of surprised that you guys allowed mounts on the top, leaving us a privilege even Mithrandir isn't afforded in the book.

There is already a quick travel option to each tier as well as a quick travel option back to the first tier.

[PerinStone]

There is already a quick travel option to each tier as well as a quick travel option back to the first tier.

Not during the epic quests while the siege is happening.