I am here to PROTEST against the NUTS grinds of the game

[Issianna]

I'll let you in on the secret Turbine doesn't want you to know.



You don't need to do grind for any of that stuff.
Gasp!

That's right. The game plays the same without all that 'uber' stuff.

This is my plan because I'm too stubborn to grind and too stubborn to quit.

[Thorgrum]

It's called "work hard, play hard".

Clearly a foreign concept to you, and most of the other ones that keep calling me a troll.

The person you are replying to, in yet another thread is a piece of ####. You are not a troll, but you are better than this. You telling that ### clown over and over again he is trash is like pointing to snow and saying "that substance is cold".

Pointing out the obvious is a good forum trick, but needs to be used sparingly otherwise it looses potency.

Not that I would know of course.

[bucko39]

The person you are replying to, in yet another thread is a piece of ####. You are not a troll, but you are better than this.

+10, Agree 100%

[The_Jagannath]

It's called "work hard, play hard".

Clearly a foreign concept to you, and most of the other ones that keep calling me a troll.

Do you always take yourself so seriously? = |

The person you are replying to, in yet another thread is a piece of ####. You are not a troll, but you are better than this. You telling that ### clown over and over again he is trash is like pointing to snow and saying "that substance is cold".

Pointing out the obvious is a good forum trick, but needs to be used sparingly otherwise it looses potency.

Not that I would know of course.

I love the fact that you hate me so much and that your nickname is Taco. ^.^

+10, Agree 100%

Hey can I get in on this circle jerk!? =D

[DiogoVP]

The person you are replying to, in yet another thread is a piece of ####. You are not a troll, but you are better than this. You telling that ### clown over and over again he is trash is like pointing to snow and saying "that substance is cold".

Pointing out the obvious is a good forum trick, but needs to be used sparingly otherwise it looses potency.

Not that I would know of course.

No matter if he's a troll or not, it'll be very appreciated if we can avoid the name calling here. I don't want to see this thread being closed because of people calling other people names in this thread.

[DiogoVP]

Do you always take yourself so seriously? = |



I love the fact that you hate me so much and that your nickname is Taco. ^.^



Hey can I get in on this circle jerk!? =D

^ This guy doesn't want to take anything you guys are saying seriously, so don't even bother replying to him.

[Thorgrum]

No matter if he's a troll or not, it'll be very appreciated if we can avoid the name calling here. I don't want to see this thread being closed because of people calling other people names in this thread.

What you want means nothing to me. Report the post if you dont like it. For years I dealt with wannabe forum moderators like you, im not doing it again.

Kiss my ### pal.

[siipperi]

In case people haven't read the other thread I linked in my original post:


Before U16:

• The absolute maximum amount of ASOEs needed for one LI was 31:
  
  • Unlucky enough to get all legacies at 1
  • 4 free upgrades at levels 40, 50, 60 and 70
  
  
• The absolute minimum amount of ASOEs needed for one LI was 0
• On average, you could say one needed an absolute maximum of 15 scrolls:
  
  • You can expect to get an average of 3 tiers on each legacy after identifying a new LI
  • At levels 10, 20 and 30 you can usually save some ASOEs when adding legacies

Since U16:

• The absolute maximum of ASOEs needed for one LI has gone up by 28
• Only one "sort of" new way of obtaining them was added by increasing the amount of quests in the DA training excercise
• This still only meant getting 7/10th of an ASOE every day = 40 days of doing the same grind
• The average maximum of ASOEs needed has gone up by 186% per LI

Since U17:

• The absolute maximum of ASOEs needed for one LI has gone up by another 42
• Only one new way of obtaining them was added, for once with a reasonable price
• In the next beta cycle, the price got drastically increased while the majority of the Bullroarer forum begged Turbine not to do so
• The average maximum of ASOEs needed has gone up by 98% per LI since U16
• The average maximum of ASOEs needed has gone up by 467% per LI since U15

So to summarize: Before U16 we needed an average of 30 scrolls per character, now we need 170. The prices of the scrolls remain the same and it's hard to understand why some of you would like more time to do things like marks and medallions run which are boring, not challenging and the results are slow.
I have seen a few people desperate because they feel like their LI need to be maxed so they can show people they are good players, but guess what? Any player with a maxed LI isn't necessarily a good player, all he had to spend was his time, not his skill. So if any of you are feeling threatened by thinking that other players with more skill can get maxed LIs like yours if the grind is made reasonable, maybe it's time to feeding your ego. There will be no one else left to compete when everyone have left this game to do something else.

Well summarized. And totally spot on and anyone who can defend current system after reading this have their own head so up to their own asses that better just ignore them.
Only thing I would like to correct is that you bring out that some players feels that they are threatened if they would make grind easier, I assume you mean more HC crowd of community and I can say nobody likes this system on those circles since this requires no skill, just pure grind and reducing grind will serve us all positively. Only ones who are backing this system are clueless people who haven't read your OP or have no idea how much time is required to fully upgrade your ILIs. Raiders already accepted that any casual gets their first agers ever since 85 cap.

[DiogoVP]

Only thing I would like to correct is that you bring out that some players feels that they are threatened if they would make grind easier, I assume you mean more HC crowd of community

That was just an assumption, I don't know what really goes on their head, but I have talked to a few players that say "Grind should stay as it is so that there is distinction between good and better players" which is very silly as a maxed gear will not define a good player. It can definetely make your character better, but you as a player can only be good if you have skill. What I felt is that some of those people are not really good players but they want other people to think they are great players because of their gear. I could be wrong but it's an assumption.

[DiogoVP]

So why not derail it back on topic?

At least ignore my derp-tastic fan club.

Because I have seen threads getting closed because of players who do not have a language filter and say anything they like. So can I not express my concern?
I am not trying to be a moderator, but if this thread is closed no dev is going to read it.

[DiogoVP]

What you want means nothing to me. Report the post if you dont like it. For years I dealt with wannabe forum moderators like you, im not doing it again.

Kiss my ### pal.

I was expressing *MY* concern for this thread which *I* created. I am not trying to be a moderator, but I have seen Frelorn closing many threads because of people with the same attitude as you.
That arrogant attitude will not take you far in life, you know.
Have a good day. Now I'll get back to the discussion this thread was supposed to bring.

[Scirocco]

Well summarized. And totally spot on and anyone who can defend current system after reading this have their own head so up to their own asses that better just ignore them.
Only thing I would like to correct is that you bring out that some players feels that they are threatened if they would make grind easier, I assume you mean more HC crowd of community and I can say nobody likes this system on those circles since this requires no skill, just pure grind and reducing grind will serve us all positively. Only ones who are backing this system are clueless people who haven't read your OP or have no idea how much time is required to fully upgrade your ILIs. Raiders already accepted that any casual gets their first agers ever since 85 cap.

It's only spot on if you ignore the fact that a "maxxed LI" under the old system is not equivalent to a "maxxed ILI" at present.

In fact, in looking back over this thread, it appears that the folks making this cost comparison argument are overly focused on the "maxxed" part of the description. The label is irrelevant; what matters is the difference in power between the two. Considering the significant increase in power in the ILI at tier 44 than an LI at tier 6, it certainly ought to take more effort to get your ILI "maxxed out."

In addition, a straight comparison of a singleold-style LI to a single ILI no longer works, if it ever did. With the last tier increase taking the place of at least one round of discard-and-replace under the old system, you should be comparing the current cost of the current ILI to multiple LIs under the old system.

If a maxxed ILI were equal in power to a maxxed old style LI, then I'd be right in there complaining with you. Fortunately, this is not the case. (In fact, the ILI was equal in power to a maxxed old style LI well before we incur any significant expenditure of ASEs.)

[The_Jagannath]

If there's one thing I've learned in all my time here, it's that the devs are going to do whatever they are going to do.

Our feedback is irrelevant.

And yet you have probably the 4th highest post count of anyone on these forums...

[Scirocco]

The irony with arguments like these is they wouldn't exist if we didn't get instances designed to take advantage of the gear.

You're also skipping the edge cases where certain classes actually benefit from a classic LI, because the LI system is (yet another) half finished system in the game.

I'm staying away from the "need" vs. "want" argument, or whether there is content that we need the more powerful ILIs for. As someone has pointed out, some folks just want to have the most powerful weapon available. If they're willing to pay the price, so be it.

I am aware of a relatively small group of players that keep a classic LI due to a desire to have certain legacies (as an LM, I know, because I do have a classic LI FA book in my bags for this reason, although it frankly never gets used, because the ILI book at 100/44 is better). However, this a variant on the player who wants to carry multiple ILIs for their character. If one of these multiple items is a classic LI, they get away cheap.

Bottom line is that comparing the cost of a classic LI to the cost of 100/44 ILI is like comparing the cost of Yugo to the cost of Mustang. Of course a Mustang costs more. You're not going to buy a Mustang for the price of Yugo.

[Stniuk]

Well I finished the game and I won.
No seriously I did all the quests in the last update and now I'm away until u18. There is nothing to do except grind the same stuff day in and day out as has always been the case. The OP was correct this grind is no substitute for a proper game and they've increased it exponentially. Remember Hybolt? I thought that was bad but this LI grind is way beyond that. My advice to anyone else thinking the same, go and play another game, rift is quite good or FF 14 then come back with the next update.
In the meantime unfortunately for turbine I won't be spending money in the store.

[siipperi]

It's only spot on if you ignore the fact that a "maxxed LI" under the old system is not equivalent to a "maxxed ILI" at present.

In fact, in looking back over this thread, it appears that the folks making this cost comparison argument are overly focused on the "maxxed" part of the description. The label is irrelevant; what matters is the difference in power between the two. Considering the significant increase in power in the ILI at tier 44 than an LI at tier 6, it certainly ought to take more effort to get your ILI "maxxed out."

In addition, a straight comparison of a singleold-style LI to a single ILI no longer works, if it ever did. With the last tier increase taking the place of at least one round of discard-and-replace under the old system, you should be comparing the current cost of the current ILI to multiple LIs under the old system.

If a maxxed ILI were equal in power to a maxxed old style LI, then I'd be right in there complaining with you. Fortunately, this is not the case. (In fact, the ILI was equal in power to a maxxed old style LI well before we incur any significant expenditure of ASEs.)

Yes indeed turbine allows us to build so strong LI that it totally break the game, I dont need any mastery on minstrel to heal any content in this game since weapon boosts my healing like 20-30% more than old book (that already was imba). Not a great design. My minstrel has 50k morale on pve build just to self nerf myself.

[botoo]

The grind is completely out of control. First it caused me to park 7 out of 8 toons permanently, and now my one remaining toon I just cannot work up the interest to do the grind at all. I play some quests on lvl 100 warden, content myself with quest gear and not having every available trait point.

Same here, I totally lost interest in this grind of all grinds, I can't get myself getting fully geared up on even 1 toon, let alone the other 20-ish lvl 100's.

To the OP: it is our own choice to think of gearing up all toons, we won't miss any of the current 'content' in lotro if we would stick to just one. Imho you can't blame Turbine if you look at a 5 year grind for all toons. And since the current 'content' can hardly be qualified as interesting or challenging we better look elsewhere for fun in MMORPG's.

[Spilo]

I'm staying away from the "need" vs. "want" argument, or whether there is content that we need the more powerful ILIs for. As someone has pointed out, some folks just want to have the most powerful weapon available. If they're willing to pay the price, so be it.

I am aware of a relatively small group of players that keep a classic LI due to a desire to have certain legacies (as an LM, I know, because I do have a classic LI FA book in my bags for this reason, although it frankly never gets used, because the ILI book at 100/44 is better). However, this a variant on the player who wants to carry multiple ILIs for their character. If one of these multiple items is a classic LI, they get away cheap.

Bottom line is that comparing the cost of a classic LI to the cost of 100/44 ILI is like comparing the cost of Yugo to the cost of Mustang. Of course a Mustang costs more. You're not going to buy a Mustang for the price of Yugo.

So you find it reasonable that Turbine has created a gear level that is virtually unreachable (or at the very least, totally abymsally miserable to reach for)? Again, I'm looking at things from a Raiding/PvP/Completionist stand point.

Never in its past (to my memory) has Turbine created a grind so horrific that it's not reasonable to reach top-level gear. Whether that gear is "needed" or "necessary" or not is totally irrelevant, as you could say the same about multiple grinds in the past that were to a far less extent.

[paebrain]

Same here, I totally lost interest in this grind of all grinds, I can't get myself getting fully geared up on even 1 toon, let alone the other 20-ish lvl 100's. ... it is our own choice to think of gearing up all toons, we won't miss any of the current 'content' in lotro if we would stick to just one. Imho you can't blame Turbine if you look at a 5 year grind for all toons. ...

What Turbine designs, promotes, and supports is THEIR choice. What we play within those parameters is OUR choice. And I think they have shot themselves in the foot with this one.

It is in their interest to have people playing multiple characters. They need people to buy stuff for their toons. The more toons, the more stuff. Reducing the incentive for playing multiple toons means reducing the likelihood people will buy stuff.

I only play about 8 hours a week these days. If I had to spend that time doing content I loathe (BBs, for example), I wouldn't play at all. I "bought" my imbued weapons on my main toon. I don't have time to grind, and I figured (silly me!) that it was a one-time purchase. Apparently not.

I have a good friend in game who has no money, so she spent months grinding to get her weapons imbued. (So much for those who say "It's easy", meaning "It takes very little time or effort". It's not "easy" for everyone.)

With this grind model, I'm not going to spend anything on the alts I was leveling. I'm not even going to level them. Turbine has lost the money I would have spent on other things.

No doubt there are some who will spend lavishly. I have my doubts that it's a large proportion of the player base. I think Turbine has made a design decision that will significantly reduce their profit margin.

Actually, the people I really feel for are the designers and developers at Turbine who are doing their level best for us and are having to work under the constraints of poor management decisions. I've been in IT since Jimmy Carter was President, and I know exactly what it's like when you're waist deep in the Big Muddy and the Big Fool says to push on. You do your very best, and you still get abuse from the users of your product (in this case, us).

[Witch0King]

I don't bother with the grind anymore. Even the epics have become a grind, running all over Minas Tirith with wash buckets tells me that their well of ideas ran completely dry. In fact I had to force myself to complete it, at least the rewards are good. These days I usually just level alts and play the game as it was meant to. Not doing some trashy dailies over and over again, I know this game can do better then that, well at least it used to.

[Volsi]

The grind is a big hill to overcome at this point but it is doable. What bothers me more and more is why are we doing it? I have naively held out that raids and traditional instances were on there way back. Even if there were traditional instances what are they going to offer for loot at this point... essences... essence jewelry... first age symbols... scrolls... crystals? What they can offer for loot at this point is just Meh. Everything has been broken down to component levels and there is nothing to get excited about.

I remember the joy of seeing Captain Arm drop in BG for a kinnie, or hoping to win the Wig-feld drop in Rift, or running the moria instances over and over to get painted vein or insidious cuffs. At this point there is no carrot to dangle, no legendary loot, just more of what we are grinding for and can obtain several different ways.

Overall I am getting very tired of being all dressed up with no were to go.

[Scirocco]

So you find it reasonable that Turbine has created a gear level that is virtually unreachable (or at the very least, totally abymsally miserable to reach for)? Again, I'm looking at things from a Raiding/PvP/Completionist stand point.

Never in its past (to my memory) has Turbine created a grind so horrific that it's not reasonable to reach top-level gear. Whether that gear is "needed" or "necessary" or not is totally irrelevant, as you could say the same about multiple grinds in the past that were to a far less extent.

You appear to be arguing against someone else, perhaps a straw man, rather than me.

I agree that whether gear is "needed" or "necessary" is totally irrelevant to the point at hand. Which is why I've stayed away from those side arguments. And by that same token, it doesn't matter whether you are looking at this from a raiding, PVP, completionist, or other standpoint.

I simply disagree with you that the grind is "horrific," and the gear level is "virtually unreachable." I've done the grind for 2 ILIs, this last boost took a handful of weeks, and it was not horrific. It obviously is reachable, since I reached it, and so have others.

So, the grind for a single main character to max out two ILIs is not unreasonable, in light of the result and compared to previous grinds involving LIs.

I do understand the problem those with MMCS have (Multiple Maxed Character Syndrome): multiply the grind by 10, and it can be crushing.

So, how can Turbine make that 10-alt maxxed ILI grind more reasonable, without trivializing the amount of effort for a player with a single main with 2 ILIs, like me?

[Spilo]

You appear to be arguing against someone else, perhaps a straw man, rather than me.

I agree that whether gear is "needed" or "necessary" is totally irrelevant to the point at hand. Which is why I've stayed away from those side arguments. And by that same token, it doesn't matter whether you are looking at this from a raiding, PVP, completionist, or other standpoint.

I simply disagree with you that the grind is "horrific," and the gear level is "virtually unreachable." I've done the grind for 2 ILIs, this last boost took a handful of weeks, and it was not horrific. It obviously is reachable, since I reached it, and so have others.

So, the grind for a single main character to max out two ILIs is not unreasonable, in light of the result and compared to previous grinds involving LIs.

I do understand the problem those with MMCS have (Multiple Maxed Character Syndrome): multiply the grind by 10, and it can be crushing.

So, how can Turbine make that 10-alt maxxed ILI grind more reasonable, without trivializing the amount of effort for a player with a single main with 2 ILIs, like me?

Hm, then it comes to a simple difference of opinion. That being said, others have done the math (look at the first post); I find the grind to be massive from any standpoint. Considering just how many Scrolls of Empowerment it requires now, I'm not sure how you could think otherwise. That being said, at least I'm clear on your standpoint now.

[AMDG93]

It just makes me sad this whole thing. To think of the endless hours i used to play on this game spending hours running instances and gearing my character as much as i could then starting again on another one to allow me to help with other roles in raids etc. Now I'm just gearing them for the sake of it as there's nothing else to do and im still doing my main so i dare not think how long it'll take to get my others semi decently geared. Im so glad fallout came out to keep me occupied hours on end till they change something in the game and i can return.

[Thorsock]

It just makes me sad this whole thing. To think of the endless hours i used to play on this game spending hours running instances and gearing my character as much as i could then starting again on another one to allow me to help with other roles in raids etc. Now I'm just gearing them for the sake of it as there's nothing else to do and im still doing my main so i dare not think how long it'll take to get my others semi decently geared. Im so glad fallout came out to keep me occupied hours on end till they change something in the game and i can return.

I'm about an hour away from starting a six-day weekend. I will leave my office, pick up breakfast, head home, and log into LOTRO. With any luck, that old magic feeling will return and I will remain logged into LOTRO until Monday. I purposefully reserved virgin content for my mains to play this weekend ... hopeful that East Gondor and Minas Tirith will hold my attention against such strong distractions as some sort of "feast" going on tomorrow and some very good football games this weekend. That's the thing though: I'm hopeful ... but not confident ... that just playing LOTRO will sate me such that I can resist all temptations to spend my time elsewhere. To paraphrase Vader: "I find my lack of confidence disturbing" (yeah, I know ... wrong MMO). But with two guys to push through new (to me) LOTRO content, I still found myself picking up Dragon Age: Inquisition and EA NCAA Football 14 (the last iteration of that game before all the lawsuits) yesterday ... just in case.

And my current sense of malaise ... following an extended break from LOTRO, no less ... doesn't even factor in any grinding.