I am here to PROTEST against the NUTS grinds of the game

[paebrain]

... So, assuming worst case scenario where you start with none of the above resources in the bank, and have no level 100 alts to run their own core routines, it should take no more than 20 to 30 days after the last update for a player to max out their two ILIs from tier cap 35 to tier cap 44. This assumes an average of about 3 hours a day of playing time.

Okay, let's just look at those numbers. A few posts back, you said it would only take a player "a couple of weeks" to max their weapons. "A couple" is two weeks. Now you've parsed it and you're up to 20 to 30 days. That's three to four weeks -- double your original statement. You're assuming three hours of play a day. So you are talking about 60 to 90 hours of play to get the weapons maxed.

But you are assuming that the person is playing every day. Try redoing your calculations based on the assumption that a person plays three times a week -- say three hours on Friday night, and four hours each on Saturday and Sunday. It's not going to come out to 30 days, or anything like it.

Even using your numbers, you're talking about taking a game (supposed to be fun) and turning it into work -- nearly a quarter of one's waking hours, every day for four weeks straight. You don't see why some people might take issue with that?

[siipperi]

Okay, let's just look at those numbers. A few posts back, you said it would only take a player "a couple of weeks" to max their weapons. "A couple" is two weeks. Now you've parsed it and you're up to 20 to 30 days. That's three to four weeks -- double your original statement. You're assuming three hours of play a day. So you are talking about 60 to 90 hours of play to get the weapons maxed.

But you are assuming that the person is playing every day. Try redoing your calculations based on the assumption that a person plays three times a week -- say three hours on Friday night, and four hours each on Saturday and Sunday. It's not going to come out to 30 days, or anything like it.

Even using your numbers, you're talking about taking a game (supposed to be fun) and turning it into work -- nearly a quarter of one's waking hours, every day for four weeks straight. You don't see why some people might take issue with that?

This so much. Not everyone wants to use daily 1h to grind for weapons for a month. Osgiliath instance armor grind was tolerable because you did it for the fun and challenge, this iLI grind offers neither and if you cant log in every day, bad luck you will never max out your weapon.

[Falconbeast]

We've got an endgame entirely centered upon (mostly) solo content where we awake in the morning with a to-do list filled with the same monotonous mini-content we did the day before. We log in and do our drudgery so that we can get our LIs maxed out in order to then go and do essentially nothing with them. And we finish just in time to have the goalposts moved farther down the field, but have only the very same drudgery to accomplish to get there. Try to really get that. They are just raising the denominator on us now. We get to 84/84 scrolls needed and they say: "Great, now you're at 84/172. . . now go do all that very same content again." And that's fine with you. Totally reasonable.

Well said.

I also see there is a 30% discount in the store for legacy tier upgrades, stat upgrades etc starting today. I wonder if this not as a result of this thread and others like it where Turbine are trying to entice people into buying these items from the store. Oh yeah, and there is also a double bonus point offer at the same time..... coincidence?

[ertr]

Granted, the grind is doable and comfortable for one alt needing two weapons. I don't think anyone is arguing that fact. Presumably though, when those weapons are done, and very strong because of the work put into them, you will expect the next level update mobs to be a lot tougher right? Else, what is the point in working on stronger weapons. So, in come the much tougher mobs, and the one alt with the great weapons, fights fine. What about the alts that didn't work their weapons because the grind is too uncomfortable or unreasonable when we start talking about more than one alt with just two weapons?

Do we just struggle through the next update mobs on those alts, then eventually be too weak to hit anything by the update after that or the one after that? Or do Turbine balance it, make future update mobs a bit more squishy on the next update (then a lot more squishy on the update after that, and so forth), and totally negate the hard work of the one alt with just two weapons?

The mobs in the next update are NOT going to be a lot tougher. A little tougher perhaps, but not a lot. They will be balanced after the average player - who will not have done the grinding to max out their LIs.
All that work spent on maxing out your LIs? Completely pointless.
You are never going to need maxed out LIs unless they make some drastic changes in how content is developed and balanced - which in turn would leave the majority of the player base locked out from doing new content.

[vladtheimplementor]

Isnt the normal thing for this game that as soon as the next big expansion comes (levels 101-110) all the stuff you are grinding for will simply be handed to players or made irrelevant/obsolete by new level stuff?

[Arnenna]

No, not that I've noticed. That's not to say that the difficulty might not be jacked up when we get to Mordor, so Arnennas's concern is something to watch for.

I'd just like to point out here for anyone reading. My concern is not that future mobs will become higher difficulty. My concern is that they won't.

I have two mains, and my hunter in particular, keeps up with everything. Her fully maxed bow is a beast, and she can tear through landscape mobs like a hot knife through butter. She can pull crowds on the Rammas and it doesn't matter how hard they all hit - she can hit harder, assuming that they can even get close. I really don't need to fully max her sword, but of course, I will, because she is my main.

When the next lot of ILi upgrades come, or the ones after that, her weapons are going to get stronger and stronger, and if they do not match mob difficulty with them, then on level landscape questing is going to feel more like low level deeding than fun. Mob difficulty MUST grow with these weapons, or things will get very boring for our characters that are growing their weapons.

It will however, render alts that we don't have time to do this grind for - pretty useless, which is not really acceptable either, as there will be loads of players out there with loads of characters sitting in this boat.

[Arnenna]

The mobs in the next update are NOT going to be a lot tougher. A little tougher perhaps, but not a lot. They will be balanced after the average player - who will not have done the grinding to max out their LIs.
All that work spent on maxing out your LIs? Completely pointless.
You are never going to need maxed out LIs unless they make some drastic changes in how content is developed and balanced - which in turn would leave the majority of the player base locked out from doing new content.

Exactly the point.

Weapons getting jacked up, with mobs staying down in difficulty will result in one thing. Players who are already screaming that that things are too easy - screaming even louder that things are even easier.

Like you say, it is likely mob difficulty will stay in line with average players that do not finish this grind. So that begs the question, what are we grinding for? And when you have to ask yourself that, it all becomes completely pointless. I'm a bit of an optimist, and I'd like to think that Turbine are giving us all this now, to enable us to get ready for something big that may be coming at the end. I mean how crazy strong are these weapons likely to go before the game objective (killing the bad guys) becomes so easy it becomes totally irrelevant?

It's not a good direction IMO.

[ertr]

Exactly the point.

Weapons getting jacked up, with mobs staying down in difficulty will result in one thing. Players who are already screaming that that things are too easy - screaming even louder that things are even easier.

Like you say, it is likely mob difficulty will stay in line with average players that do not finish this grind. So that begs the question, what are we grinding for? And when you have to ask yourself that, it all becomes completely pointless. I'm a bit of an optimist, and I'd like to think that Turbine are giving us all this now, to enable us to get ready for something big that may be coming at the end. I mean how crazy strong are these weapons likely to go before the game objective (killing the bad guys) becomes so easy it becomes totally irrelevant?

It's not a good direction IMO.

"We"? I am not doing any real grinding. I don't really know what those trying to max out their LIs are doing it for, unless it is just for bragging rights - or if they are feeling particularly masochistic.

It has never, ever, through the whole history of the game been truly necessary to have maxed-out gear on characters. I do not see that changing any time soon.
I very much doubt that Turbine really expects players (other than a very small minority) to actually max out their LIs. The grind is likely more to let people have something to do until the next content update.


Given the facts that having a maxed out LI is not needed, and most likely never will be needed, then I would say it is pointless (one could even call it insane) to try to max out LIs unless one actually enjoys the grinding.

To all those complaining about the grind my advice is: Don't do the grinding if you don't find it fun. Nobody is forcing you to do it, you will never need the results of the grinding, so if you do the grind anyway it is entirely by your own choice. Oh, and don't buy things from the store to cut down on the grinding - doing that is just rewarding Turbine for introducing pointless grinds.

[Perdon]

I commit to what ertr said.

I have 5 Lvl 100 characters. Some have more weapons, all weapons have 7 legacies. I have never maxed out any of these weapons. I decided per character and per legacy if the level is good enough.
I also have only one character with 5 slot armour(the tank). You do not need to max out all what you have.

[GladiusDei333]

There are many ASSumptions on regards about "reasonable" grind.

The assumption that doing the same content over and over again for granular marginal gain is tolerable to the average person.
The assumption that players have 2 or more hours of LOTRO play every day and play the game every day.
The assumption that players will only have one main with only two ILIs and no other ILIs or LIs.
The assumption that players have access to the same venues (DA, BBs, Helegrod) of acquiring ILI progression materials (ASoEs).

These assumptions may represent SOME of the player base, but not all.

There are players that are not akin to repetitive tasks. These players are driven away for lack of varied content for progression, hence leaving the game, hence lowering Turbine's income, hence less development, hence less game quality.
There are players that only play sporadically and occasionally, increasing the amount of time to get ILIs to max, and they do the math, see it's not worth it, and start to not care about ILIs. So they either see the grind and leave the game (see above), or they continue to play without using ILIs (some even don't use LIs), hence not buying points from Store to buy Legendary material, hence lowering Turbine's income, hence less development, hence less game quality. There are some players that can and will buy from Store to circunvent grind, but prices on LOTRO Store for one single scroll of empowerment (let alone star lit crystals, crystals of remembrance, and all other LI and ILI usables) are prohibitive, meaning it'd be far less likely that the more people are buying those, but rather that only a few and very rich IRL people are circunventing the grind.
There are players who have more than 2 ILIs and more than 1 toon. I myself have 5 on one toon (thinking of doing a 6th, just because *I *can, not because I believe everyone should, mind you), but many classes have normally two roles in which they excel at (or at the very least, a main non DPS role and a DPS role used to fasten leveling up, exception being DPS classes, which can then opt for a non DPS role on their own volition), making it the more interesting to have two sets of ILIs (4 ILIs) for many players. Original post already showed how much you need to grind (do repetitive, inane content) for 2 ILIs, double it. And that's ASSuming a player who plays only one toon... but a person that sticks to only ONE toon is either: a) a casual player, and wouldn't already have time to develop another toon to begin with; or b) a returning player, who comes and goes from and to other games because they're more interesting. These kind of players are not prone on spending for what they deem unnecessary, given, ILIs progression materials from the Store. People that have more than one toon and more than 2 ILIs have the more chance to spend on Store, tend to play the game more than the above kinds of players, and thus tend to maintain both the playing community and Turbine's income going on. That's the kind of people you don't want to ostracize with excessive, daunting and/or boring repetitive tasks for granular marginal gain. It is not and has been not a matter of giving things in a silver platter, it is about not disheartening faithful players.
Last but not least, we tend to consider a given the things we already have. But the ILI system is a freebie - Gondor (DA), Helegrod (Thorog), BBs (Helm's Deep) is not, those are some of the major ways of getting the ILI progression materials indirectly... for casual and returning players who don't have access to these paths, it is one more bump of impedment on the road to work for ILIs. For those that DO have that content, it is already repetitive, rehearsed and boring content just to get "through the motions". Given, there should be a proper effort/reward ratio ON ANYTHING. No pain, no gain. But this is a GAME. When it starts to feel like WORK, when it was supposed to be a pastime and entice fun, it means the effort has clearly outweighed the reward ratio.

So, here's what I'd propose to solve this conundrum momentarily (because the real problem solver would be to develop more content, but given our developer's crew condition, they're focused on updates as is):

Lower the marks/medallions/Stars of merit/silver and gold DA coins cost of Anfalas Scrolls of Empowerment. Along with that, either lower the price of or increase the effect/quantity of Legendary items from the Store. This means players can opt to rotate any content at all to get the materials, leading to less boredom, less repetitive tasks, and allows for casual and returning players to keep up and not be disheartened when working ILIs. And to those that are willing to pay, it'll increase Turbine's microtransactions' revenue to offer more bang for their buck on the store in regards to ILIs. The logical progression shows that the number of ASoEs will grow in the future... and Anfalas Star lit crystals... and I even dare say Remembrance Crystals, to exercise a bit of futurology. If the grind is bad as of right now, for both casuals and regulars, imagine when they increase it AGAIN, then roll a level 100 toon, no help from a previous lvl 100 toon, and see what a new player will be facing when they reach level cap.

[Scirocco]

Okay, let's just look at those numbers. A few posts back, you said it would only take a player "a couple of weeks" to max their weapons. "A couple" is two weeks. Now you've parsed it and you're up to 20 to 30 days. That's three to four weeks -- double your original statement. You're assuming three hours of play a day. So you are talking about 60 to 90 hours of play to get the weapons maxed.

But you are assuming that the person is playing every day. Try redoing your calculations based on the assumption that a person plays three times a week -- say three hours on Friday night, and four hours each on Saturday and Sunday. It's not going to come out to 30 days, or anything like it.

Even using your numbers, you're talking about taking a game (supposed to be fun) and turning it into work -- nearly a quarter of one's waking hours, every day for four weeks straight. You don't see why some people might take issue with that?

With regard to your first point, I went back to look at what I first said: "No idea about cash, but if you're doing a pair of ILIs for a single established character that has been played regularly, you can "max out" both ILIs without spending a dime (or a TP) in about 2 to 3 weeks. Faster, of course, if you've built up a bank of SoMs or other in-game currencies."

I made this statement in the context of my experience in maxxing out both of my ILIs, as someone with a decent bank of in-game currencies.

The more detailed calculation just made above assumes a player has no in-game currencies banked (a very unusual situation, if they've been playing with any regularity at all). That's why it's a worst-case scenario.

With regard to your second point, yes, I clearly assume that the efficient powergamer will play about 3 hours a day, on average. Weekends would be higher, of course, for most. And as I noted above, this isn't 3 hours continuously. I often knock out the DA training run and warbands in a half-hour or less before work, for example.

If you only play two or three days a week, or aren't efficient about your time in the game, or haven't built up some in-game currencies prior to the release, of course it's going to take longer. And that's perfectly fine. It is not reasonable to expect to have two fully maxxed out ILIs relatively quickly under those circumstances.

If you measure these things in total hours, that calculation depends on how patient you are. The more days you are willing to take, the fewer total hours you have to spend, because you can then focus on only the most efficient technques. If you average 2 ASE per hour at an average of one hour per day, for example, your total hours will be 42 hours, but it will take 42 days. With 3 hours per day, you average about 1.35 ASE per hour, so your total hours would be 62. If you're really inefficient, then you're at or below 1 ASE per hour, which is where you get into the 84+ hour range.

If you can play only two or three days a week, hopefully you've had the foresight to continue to bank in-game currencies through regular play prior to the last update. You can get a substantial headstart, and then continue through normal gameplay. (I essentially took off the two months prior to the update, but still had a decent bank of mixed in-game currencies at the time of the update, so this approach is hardly onerous.)

And ultimately, if you really must have two fully maxxed ILIs as quickly as possible but don't have the in-game resources to do it, you can make up the difference at the Store.

[Arnenna]

"We"? I am not doing any real grinding. I don't really know what those trying to max out their LIs are doing it for, unless it is just for bragging rights - or if they are feeling particularly masochistic.

It has never, ever, through the whole history of the game been truly necessary to have maxed-out gear on characters. I do not see that changing any time soon.
I very much doubt that Turbine really expects players (other than a very small minority) to actually max out their LIs. The grind is likely more to let people have something to do until the next content update.


Given the facts that having a maxed out LI is not needed, and most likely never will be needed, then I would say it is pointless (one could even call it insane) to try to max out LIs unless one actually enjoys the grinding.

To all those complaining about the grind my advice is: Don't do the grinding if you don't find it fun. Nobody is forcing you to do it, you will never need the results of the grinding, so if you do the grind anyway it is entirely by your own choice. Oh, and don't buy things from the store to cut down on the grinding - doing that is just rewarding Turbine for introducing pointless grinds.

"We" as in, those of us who are grinding. I pretty much gathered from you're posts that you are not participating in that side of things.

Although, given that level cap content now consists of varied daily quests in West Gondor, Central Gondor, East Gondor and Old Anorien - and not much else, I wonder what there is to do, apart from those, that would be considered as "not grinding"? Sure there are old instances, and the Osgiliath ones, but no need to do those if you don't need to grind the gear within them right (They are just grinds too)? So what's left? What is it that you do in game for your enjoyment?

[BangoTwinkletoes]

And ultimately, if you really must have two fully maxxed ILIs as quickly as possible but don't have the in-game resources to do it, you can make up the difference at the Store.

re the above part of your post. I would suggest that Turbine's strategy is to make the acquisition of marks & medallions sufficiently tiresome & unengaging so that the purchase of upgrades via the store is the expected norm.

So in short, their end-game philosophy is to rely on the fact that there will be enough players who want to expedite the levelling of their LIs, whether for ePeen or pvmp, so that a given revenue target from the store is achieved. Does anyone else know of an MMO that puts in the grind mechanisms and real money transactions to shorten said grind but with no content at the end of it?

[ertr]

"We" as in, those of us who are grinding. I pretty much gathered from you're posts that you are not participating in that side of things.

Although, given that level cap content now consists of varied daily quests in West Gondor, Central Gondor, East Gondor and Old Anorien - and not much else, I wonder what there is to do, apart from those, that would be considered as "not grinding"? Sure there are old instances, and the Osgiliath ones, but no need to do those if you don't need to grind the gear within them right (They are just grinds too)? So what's left? What is it that you do in game for your enjoyment?

Level alts. Playing with friends just for the fun of it. But most days I am spending my online time on a number of different games - no reason to limit oneself to only one game, and by switching between them I am less likely to burn out on any of them.

[Arnenna]

With regard to your first point, I went back to look at what I first said: "No idea about cash, but if you're doing a pair of ILIs for a single established character that has been played regularly, you can "max out" both ILIs without spending a dime (or a TP) in about 2 to 3 weeks. Faster, of course, if you've built up a bank of SoMs or other in-game currencies."

I made this statement in the context of my experience in maxxing out both of my ILIs, as someone with a decent bank of in-game currencies.

The more detailed calculation just made above assumes a player has no in-game currencies banked (a very unusual situation, if they've been playing with any regularity at all). That's why it's a worst-case scenario.

With regard to your second point, yes, I clearly assume that the efficient powergamer will play about 3 hours a day, on average. Weekends would be higher, of course, for most. And as I noted above, this isn't 3 hours continuously. I often knock out the DA training run and warbands in a half-hour or less before work, for example.

If you only play two or three days a week, or aren't efficient about your time in the game, or haven't built up some in-game currencies prior to the release, of course it's going to take longer. And that's perfectly fine. It is not reasonable to expect to have two fully maxxed out ILIs relatively quickly under those circumstances.

If you measure these things in total hours, that calculation depends on how patient you are. The more days you are willing to take, the fewer total hours you have to spend, because you can then focus on only the most efficient technques. If you average 2 ASE per hour at an average of one hour per day, for example, your total hours will be 42 hours, but it will take 42 days. With 3 hours per day, you average about 1.35 ASE per hour, so your total hours would be 62. If you're really inefficient, then you're at or below 1 ASE per hour, which is where you get into the 84+ hour range.

If you can play only two or three days a week, hopefully you've had the foresight to continue to bank in-game currencies through regular play prior to the last update. You can get a substantial headstart, and then continue through normal gameplay. (I essentially took off the two months prior to the update, but still had a decent bank of mixed in-game currencies at the time of the update, so this approach is hardly onerous.)

And ultimately, if you really must have two fully maxxed ILIs as quickly as possible but don't have the in-game resources to do it, you can make up the difference at the Store.

"for a single established character that has been played regularly"
"as someone with a decent bank of in-game currencies"
"a very unusual situation, if they've been playing with any regularity at all"

Back up a little there for a minute. You are effectively excluding ALL newly capped players at that point.

It's all very well standing on solid ground waving an easy stick, while others around you are wading through treacle. You're arguments are making this all about you - you can do it, because you have saved up currencies and run content for months in advance with your regular, already capped character.

Newly capped players don't have that advantage. The grind is extremely painful for those players, and while people try to convince them, that's it's real easy, and reasonable - when the reality is, they are starting from scratch, and by the time they do that work, the next lot of work will have already started (which you will undoubtedly already saved up for) - they will feel disheartened and probably think - nahh, not doing this - and promptly run off to play something else.

[Arnenna]

Level alts. Playing with friends just for the fun of it. But most days I am spending my online time on a number of different games - no reason to limit oneself to only one game, and by switching between them I am less likely to burn out on any of them.

Thanks for your insight. It's appreciated, but there is something very wrong when the alternative to a good experience of LOTRO end game is, roll an alt, or go play something else. And why would anyone now roll or play another alt? Turbine just rendered them as nothing more than mules, given we should not consider grinding for them - because apparently, we shouldn't be thinking of alts anymore when it comes to grinding . . . . I mean playing . . . . level cap.

[Scirocco]

"We" as in, those of us who are grinding. I pretty much gathered from you're posts that you are not participating in that side of things.

Although, given that level cap content now consists of varied daily quests in West Gondor, Central Gondor, East Gondor and Old Anorien - and not much else, I wonder what there is to do, apart from those, that would be considered as "not grinding"? Sure there are old instances, and the Osgiliath ones, but no need to do those if you don't need to grind the gear within them right (They are just grinds too)? So what's left? What is it that you do in game for your enjoyment?

A good question. And I agree that even if there were new instances or raids, that repeatedly doing those would be as much "grinding" as anything else. I will do a raid or classic group instance a couple of times just for the experience (as with any form of content), but after that, it's clearly a grind.

For any content, for the first time or two that you experience it, it is not a "grind." Except during the period after its initial commercial release, as folks progress up to the initial character level cap (which some may consider to be a "leveling grind," but which I consider to be a grind only if you are constantly repeating similar content to acquire XP), no MMORPG can continue to provide this "new experience" in its content on a continual basis. At some point, repeating of some of the content is necessary, and that's when the grind begins.

Hopefully, you enjoy the repeated content, so it doesn't feel like a grind. If you don't enjoy it, then stop doing it.

[Arnenna]

A good question. And I agree that even if there were new instances or raids, that repeatedly doing those would be as much "grinding" as anything else. I will do a raid or classic group instance a couple of times just for the experience (as with any form of content), but after that, it's clearly a grind.

For any content, for the first time or two that you experience it, it is not a "grind." Except during the period after its initial commercial release, as folks progress up to the initial character level cap (which some may consider to be a "leveling grind," but which I consider to be a grind only if you are constantly repeating similar content to acquire XP), no MMORPG can continue to provide this "new experience" in its content on a continual basis. At some point, repeating of some of the content is necessary, and that's when the grind begins.

Hopefully, you enjoy the repeated content, so it doesn't feel like a grind. If you don't enjoy it, then stop doing it.

Well, I understand that no MMO can constantly provide "new experience", but honestly, at this point, I'd settle for less of "the same old" over and over and over and over again.

I don't mind repeatable content, it's never bothered me. I was one of the strange people that actually enjoyed Hytbold, and I did it on four characters. They can throw massive amounts of repeatable content at me, and I won't flinch - as long as (and this bit is important) - it's worth my time to do it. When time/effort equals reasonable reward, I'm fine with it, but when it becomes heavily weighted on the time/effort side (as this ILi grind is) - its just meh, and off-putting.

[Scirocco]

"for a single established character that has been played regularly"
"as someone with a decent bank of in-game currencies"
"a very unusual situation, if they've been playing with any regularity at all"

Back up a little there for a minute. You are effectively excluding ALL newly capped players at that point.

It's all very well standing on solid ground waving an easy stick, while others around you are wading through treacle. You're arguments are making this all about you - you can do it, because you have saved up currencies and run content for months in advance with your regular, already capped character.

Newly capped players don't have that advantage. The grind is extremely painful for those players, and while people try to convince them, that's it's real easy, and reasonable - when the reality is, they are starting from scratch, and by the time they do that work, the next lot of work will have already started (which you will undoubtedly already saved up for) - they will feel disheartened and probably think - nahh, not doing this - and promptly run off to play something else.

OK, let's talk about newly capped characters. They've been playing with regularity to get to 100, so I'll assume they continue to play with regularity. I also will assume that they have relics (from basic LI farming since level 50), and the ability to get some level III title scrolls for their character at that point (from Fangorn, for example).

So, first thing they do at level 100 is obtain some form of their two LIs at level 100. They do the typical pre-imbue preparation (i.e., level 70, free tier-ups at reforge), and then imbue. With the free tier caps at present, they will have substantially better ILIs than their LIs, and will be able to progress by starting the West Gondor content, including the most efficient means of acquiring ASEs, as discussed above. They'll also be building up those same in-game currencies through this content, thus reducing the grind aspect. They will be unlocking tiers along the way, as they progress through the content. By the time they get to MT, they'll probably have unlocked all of the tiers, or only have a handful left.

Are you suggesting that, as newly capped players, they should be skipping all that West, Central and East Gondor content, and go straight to MT? I hope not, because I would hate for them to miss all of that non-grinding content. But if you are (perhaps they simply want to catch-up to their friends, or this is an alt they're trying to max out), this gets to Almagnus' suggestions for playing catch-up.

[Scirocco]

re the above part of your post. I would suggest that Turbine's strategy is to make the acquisition of marks & medallions sufficiently tiresome & unengaging so that the purchase of upgrades via the store is the expected norm.

So in short, their end-game philosophy is to rely on the fact that there will be enough players who want to expedite the levelling of their LIs, whether for ePeen or pvmp, so that a given revenue target from the store is achieved. Does anyone else know of an MMO that puts in the grind mechanisms and real money transactions to shorten said grind but with no content at the end of it?

The "no content at the end of it that I want to do" is implied, but probably should be explicitly stated. I presume you are referring to classic instance clusters and raids, since that is what some folks really mean when they refer to "end game," overlooking the fact that it is just one form of end-game content.

I think having this form of end-game content in the game does add a great deal, although it is not end-game content that I would ever grind or repeat with any regularity (I don't find it fun, challenging, or satisfying beyond the first couple of times through, sorry). Just like PvMP, there is a significant niche of players who prefer raiding, and a larger group of players who prefer classic group instances. (My only problem would be if BIS gear is gated behind just this content; they should be a pathway to obtaining BIS, but not the only pathway. An old topic of discussion that is tangential to this thread, so I won't dwell on it.)

The more forms of end-game there are, the better.

[Arnenna]

OK, let's talk about newly capped characters. They've been playing with regularity to get to 100, so I'll assume they continue to play with regularity. I also will assume that they have relics (from basic LI farming since level 50), and the ability to get some level III title scrolls for their character at that point (from Fangorn, for example).

So, first thing they do at level 100 is obtain some form of their two LIs at level 100. They do the typical pre-imbue preparation (i.e., level 70, free tier-ups at reforge), and then imbue. With the free tier caps at present, they will have substantially better ILIs than their LIs, and will be able to progress by starting the West Gondor content, including the most efficient means of acquiring ASEs, as discussed above. They'll also be building up those same in-game currencies through this content, thus reducing the grind aspect. They will be unlocking tiers along the way, as they progress through the content. By the time they get to MT, they'll probably have unlocked all of the tiers, or only have a handful left.

Are you suggesting that, as newly capped players, they should be skipping all that West, Central and East Gondor content, and go straight to MT? I hope not, because I would hate for them to miss all of that non-grinding content. But if you are (perhaps they simply want to catch-up to their friends, or this is an alt they're trying to max out), this gets to Almagnus' suggestions for playing catch-up.

I get all that. Now, apply it to a player that caps let's say, next June - when they need 18 x 7 empos, and 18 crystals per weapon before the next update. Or if they cap next October, when they need 24 x 7 empos and 24 crystals per weapon before the next update.

Are you getting it yet?

A player will get to level 100 long before they even reach Gondor, and with Ili grind being exponential across a horizontal, non rising level . . . . can you see where the problem lies?

Are you suggesting that in order to do this grind, they skip a whole heap of content that they paid to play - just so they can get to the Ili dailies?

[Scirocco]

This so much. Not everyone wants to use daily 1h to grind for weapons for a month. Osgiliath instance armor grind was tolerable because you did it for the fun and challenge, this iLI grind offers neither and if you cant log in every day, bad luck you will never max out your weapon.

This exemplifies why grind is in the eye of beholder.

The Osg instance armor grind was intolerable to me. There was no fun, no challenge, and the reward was a microscopic, marginal improvement over the DA 4-slot armor. I will do classic group instance or raids once or twice, and on rare occasions afterwards, but I won't farm/grind in them.

In contrast, the improvement in ILIs over LIs is significant, and well-worth the effort. The grind is tolerable to me because it is spread out in different content, and can accomplished in bite-sized chunks of time.

I know that you and I are on opposite sides of the classic group/raid cluster -- soloable content preference spectrum. That clearly drives the type of grind we like and find acceptable. But you will not find me arguing that the Osg 5-slot armor should be available to all players after a week of doing that content for an hour or two per day.

In any event, the idea that you cannot max out your ILIs if you do not log in every day is simply false. I took off from the game for the two months prior to the update, and still managed to max out my two ILIs in a couple of weeks. During that time I completed all the new quests and deeds, and even managed to fit it 6 or 7 skraids, a couple of classic raids, and several group EBs with my kin. If you do not log in every day, it takes longer. But that's common sense, and it is foolish to expect otherwise.

This is why I have a hard time accepting complaints about the ILI grind being too hard for a single regularly-played character with two ILIs. I do recognize the problem for those with MCCS, and I am fine with various "catch-up" proposals that have been made that can be used for capping alts as well as players that have taken some time off on their main.

[Arnenna]

This exemplifies why grind is in the eye of beholder.

The Osg instance armor grind was intolerable to me. There was no fun, no challenge, and the reward was a microscopic, marginal improvement over the DA 4-slot armor. I will do classic group instance or raids once or twice, and on rare occasions afterwards, but I won't farm/grind in them.

In contrast, the improvement in ILIs over LIs is significant, and well-worth the effort. The grind is tolerable to me because it is spread out in different content, and can accomplished in bite-sized chunks of time.

I know that you and I are on opposite sides of the classic group/raid cluster -- soloable content preference spectrum. That clearly drives the type of grind we like and find acceptable. But you will not find me arguing that the Osg 5-slot armor should be available to all players after a week of doing that content for an hour or two per day.

In any event, the idea that you cannot max out your ILIs if you do not log in every day is simply false. I took off from the game for the two months prior to the update, and still managed to max out my two ILIs in a couple of weeks. During that time I completed all the new quests and deeds, and even managed to fit it 6 or 7 skraids, a couple of classic raids, and several group EBs with my kin. If you do not log in every day, it takes longer. But that's common sense, and it is foolish to expect otherwise.

This is why I have a hard time accepting complaints about the ILI grind being too hard for a single regularly-played character with two ILIs. I do recognize the problem for those with MCCS, and I am fine with various "catch-up" proposals that have been made that can be used for capping alts as well as players that have taken some time off on their main.

But nobody is expecting you to accept that the grind is too hard for a single regularly-played character with two ILIs. I don't know why you keep thinking that they are.

If you choose to just play a single regularly-played character with two ILIs, then that's your choice, but there are other people here that do not play that way, and when you start multiplying that grind, it becomes unreasonable for them. It is also unreasonable for a player that caps tomorrow (or next week, or next month, or just before the next update), to be expected to catch up on what you've managed to accomplish on your weapons - in the last 6 months over two updates (which will end up being a year if it's just before the next update).

[Scirocco]

I get all that. Now, apply it to a player that caps let's say, next June - when they need 18 x 7 empos, and 18 crystals per weapon before the next update. Or if they cap next October, when they need 24 x 7 empos and 24 crystals per weapon before the next update.

Are you getting it yet?

A player will get to level 100 long before they even reach Gondor, and with Ili grind being exponential across a horizontal, non rising level . . . . can you see where the problem lies?

Are you suggesting that in order to do this grind, they skip a whole heap of content that they paid to play - just so they can get to the Ili dailies?

The longer any player waits to start playing an ongoing game, the longer it will take for them to catch up, both in character levels and in AA-system levels, and in completing the non-grinding content. That's just reality (unless the game is dead, and there's no new content being added at the level cap in any form). I agree with Almagnus that there are players who want to play "catch-up," and it's important that they have some options to catch-up quickly (accepting the fact that they are willing to skip content to do so, such as is the case with Gifts of Valar).

Where did you get the idea I was suggesting skipping a whole heap of content a newly capped player paid to play? The best ILI content in terms of efficiency starts right when they reach level 100, with the DA training run and the DA warbands. They can even do the EBs at that point. From my viewpoint, it appeared that it was you that was suggesting that newly capped player skip all of the West, Central and East Gondor content. If that's not correct, I apologize for any confusion on my part.

A newly capped player at 100 is perhaps in the best position of all. They can immediately start their ILI (which with the free caps is powerful enough for the content), and then periodically unlock additional tier caps as they progress through the West Gondor content, the Central Gondor content, and the East Gondor content. By the time they reach MT, they will have two maxxed ILIs, and it won't have seemed like a grind at all, because they've done the unlocking (or most of it) with non-grinding game play.

If they start next year, we'll have another expansion or two (with new landmass and quests, etc.). I reasonably expect the tier caps on our ILIs will have increased by another 9, to 53 (in lieu of a character level cap increase, which I continue to hope for, but no longer expect). The newly capped player at that point will start out with 3 additional free tiers than if they started today, and would naturally max out (or come close to maxxing out) their ILIs through playing West Gondor, Central Gondor, East Gondor, MT, and the most recent content.

So, maxxing out two ILIs is not a problem for a newly capped player that wants to consume all the content they paid for in the standard order of progression. It only is a problem for someone who wants to max out their two ILIs very quickly after reaching the cap (and acquiring their ILIs), without waiting to go through all of the post-cap content. In the latter case, they can do so by grinding away, by visiting the Store, or combinations thereof. The quicker they want it, and the more content or grind they want to skip, the more they pay. I see nothing wrong with that.

But nobody is expecting you to accept that the grind is too hard for a single regularly-played character with two ILIs. I don't know why you keep thinking that they are.

You do not, but there are others in this thread that do. Since you and I are in agreement on this point, we can focus on your two other points.

For multiple-alt players, I agree that it can be crushing. Almagnus has proposed some "catch-up" mechanisms for players that have taken time off, and those could be used for alt characters as well. If something like this solves the multiple-alt problem, I think we will find ourselves in agreement, and our time will be best spent in discussing proposals for such mechanisms.

For newly capped players, I addressed this above. If the newly capped player wants to move themselves into the "catch-up" category (and thus have made the decision to skip the intervening content), then Almagnus' "catch-up" mechanisms would work here as well. Again, I think we find ourselves in agreement.

So, what forms of catch-up mechanisms do you think would work?

[ertr]

The longer any player waits to start playing an ongoing game, the longer it will take for them to catch up, both in character levels and in AA-system levels. That's just reality (unless the game is dead, and there's no new content being added at the level cap in any form). I agree with Almagnus that there are players who want to play "catch-up," and it's important that they have some options to catch-up quickly (accepting the fact that they are willing to skip content to do so, such as is the case with Gifts of Valar).

And where did you get the idea I was suggesting skipping a whole heap of content a newly capped player paid to play? The best ILI content in terms of efficiency starts right when they reach level 100, with the DA training run and the DA warbands. They can even do the EBs at that point. From my viewpoint, it appeared that it was you that was suggesting that newly capped player skip all of the West, Central and East Gondor content.

A newly capped player at 100 is perhaps in the best position of all. They can immediately start their ILI (which with the free caps is powerful enough for the content), and then periodically unlock additional tier caps as they progress through the West Gondor content, the Central Gondor content, and the East Gondor content. By the time they reach MT, they will have two maxxed ILIs, and it won't have seemed like a grind at all, because they've done the unlocking (or most of it) with non-grinding game play.

If they start next year, we'll have another expansion or two (with new landmass and quests, etc.). I reasonably expect the tier caps on our ILIs will have increased by another 9, to 53 (in lieu of a character level cap increase, which I continue to hope for, but no longer expect). The newly capped player at that point will start out with 3 additional free tiers than if they started today, and would naturally max out (or come close to maxxing out) their ILIs through playing West Gondor, Central Gondor, East Gondor, MT, and the most recent content.

So, maxxing out two ILIs is not a problem for a newly capped player that wants to consume all the content they paid for in the standard order of progression. It only is a problem for someone who wants to max out their two ILIs very quickly after reaching the cap (and acquiring their ILIs), without waiting to go through all of the post-cap content. In the latter case, they can do so by grinding away, by visiting the Store, or combinations thereof. The quicker they want it, and the more content or grind they want to skip, the more they pay. I see nothing wrong with that.

Would a player who goes through the existing content without doing any grinding (i.e. doing each quest and instance exactly once and no more) and without spending any money/TP in the store actually be even near maxing out their ILIs?
You seem to claim this is the case, but judging from other's complaints about the needed grinding I have my doubts.