I am here to PROTEST against the NUTS grinds of the game

[Scirocco]

Do you accept that the Store is influencing the design and applying upward pressure on the grind (eg., 84 Scrolls of empowerment upon first incrementation of the system instead of 21, 42, etc.)?

I don't disagree with your basic premise, and yes, having the Store in the game does raise the danger of game design being directed to it.

And I have already statedthat I was surprised by the 9 tier increase. I would have predicted 5, which would have put us in the 42 ASE for two ILI range. But since that same free/unlockable ratio would be carried over with the larger increase, to me it doesn't make a difference whether it is all or once, or 42 ASE now, and 42 ASE in a second update two months later. The grind is the same, and I'd rather have them all available now. That way, it's up to me how to spread the grind out.

Now, perhaps the 84 now instead of 42 now, 42 later is designed to cater to those who feel the need to max out their ILI (at whatever the max tier is) now, and are willing to pay for the immediacy. I don't have a problem with people paying for immediacy.

I obviously don't have a problem with the ASE grind, either in an 84 now or a 42 now, 42 later configuration. No need to rehash that. It's the same grind, either way, and in both cases I can make reasonable, steady progress towards the goal in reasonable chunks of play time.

Ironically, as a side note, I wish that Turbine would add the XIII and XIV stat tomes to the Store. I would buy them in a heartbeat. As you have noted before, obtaining these in-game is a headache, and excessively subject to the RNG. The RNG is the killer, for me, in a grind...if there were a way to obtain the stat tomes gradually with in-game currency, I definitely would go that route instead of the Store. I won't pay for immediacy. I will pay to avoid ridiculous RNG results, or to avoid what are unacceptable grinds to me (i.e., based on RNG, based on grinding of instances or raids, etc.)

Buying something on the AH for gold or buying something in the Store for TP is the same thing to me. In both cases, it's the value of my time to generate the gold or the TP (or the dollars required to purchase TP), represented by different forms of intangible currency.

[Scirocco]

All this talk about grinding...

Ah, if only we could get from 0 to 80 in 3.5.

Almost makes me want to go buy the last WoW expansion and play "catch-up"....

[Lilywarrior]

Not quite. 'Grinding' in the context of MMOs means repeatedly having to do something non-fun (or at least something that will cease to be fun after the first couple of repetitions) in order to achieve some goal. The word 'repeatedly' is important. Having to do something once is not a grind no matter how unpleasant.
Most dictionaries won't list that exact meaning, but that is because most dictionaries were written before MMOs existed.

You are not aware that those publishers of different dictionaries update them yearly. So here you are minus all the definitive variations:
grind /?ra?nd/


verb13. Digital Technology. (in a video game) to perform a monotonous task repeatedly in order to advance a character to a higher level or rank: You have to grind for hours before you can embark on the main story mission.



But you probably weren't aware that people who decide what words are commonly used are also playing video games or video. On the other hand, maybe you just need to update your dictionaries annually. (*Just in case you don't know, I am joking and teasing you just a bit*)

[Lilywarrior]

And you're not going to get much more than a second glance when all you can do is step in and call people names. Now quit your own "whining" about how poor you think the game has become (yes, your a whiner too it would seem) and try adding something we don't all already know.

I don't want a silver platter, I just want a plate instead of being forced to eat off the floor.

And what makes you think I want any one to glance at anything I would write on this thread? What I wrote was for the DEVs to read so that it will balance the thread. What you don't understand or fail to recognize is the player who have been in LOTRO 8+ years have heard all of this before so we usually don't bother coming to these types of things very often. It's always the same, "the grind it too grindy!" which translates to: "I don't or can't do it all because I just started on _/__/__ and I will never be top dog if I have to do all of this just to catch up".

Also, my heart bleeds for you. Oh Yeah. I have brought several chars to cap and all that I have brought to 100 have clean blank pages in their deed journals and are fully rep'd. It's not because I skipped them but because I do what is required when I create and then decide to level a char to cap. But I have only 2 mains who I will suit up for raiding, just in case there ever is a raid again. The biggest difference is that I don't care when I get anything accomplished. I use to, but now I don't. So I may just as well take my time and do it as it comes along. But if you really want to be cap'd asap then let me assure you it is possible to have a gimpy cap'd char in about 3-4 weeks. I have seen it done often enough.

Whining is moaning and pouting about the same thing that has been moaned and pouted about several times before.
Fed up is a lack of patience when hear someone starting the same old song for the 900th time.

If I whine, it is not going to be about LOTRO. I think Turbine has done a great job with the games they have made. I like LOTRO but I do not want it dumb'd down for anymore than it has been.

[Urwendil]

Thanks for your insight. It's appreciated, but there is something very wrong when the alternative to a good experience of LOTRO end game is, roll an alt, or go play something else. And why would anyone now roll or play another alt? Turbine just rendered them as nothing more than mules, given we should not consider grinding for them - because apparently, we shouldn't be thinking of alts anymore when it comes to grinding . . . . I mean playing . . . . level cap.

Very true. I have stopped the advancement of my alts close to the cap and have been playing -on and off- those at Moria or pre-Moria levels, as well as making babies to revisit the Prologue areas just for sake of nostalgia.

My main capped first during Wildermore days (being a semi-completionist) but he's never had more that 1,000 gold, and presently he's almost broke (~300 gold) having spent his little fortune on the blasted morale essences.

All this drop-gambling and pointless grind have effectively reduced me (a raiding tank) to a storymode and social events player. Spent 2-3 gaming sessions refurbishing my (and my kin's) various houses without so much as drawing my weapon.

Edit: Haha, unexpected rejoice! I typed a two paragraph rant about me being still in moderation limbo for 6 weeks and discovered that I'm finally fixed when I posted it.

Better late then never, if a bit too late. Thanks and happy Thanksgiving.

[Hurin]

I don't disagree with your basic premise, and yes, having the Store in the game does raise the danger of game design being directed to it.

And I have already statedthat I was surprised by the 9 tier increase. I would have predicted 5, which would have put us in the 42 ASE for two ILI range.

Oh. Okay. So you basically agree there's a problem. But for some reason you still insist on declaring everything to be fine. Reading all the twists and turns, shucking and jiving, one begins to wonder if you're perhaps just reflexively contrarian. Even when you suspect you might be wrong, you still like to engage in various forms of sophistry to try to see if you can still make lemonade from rotten lemons, and then even convince others it tastes good.

But since that same free/unlockable ratio would be carried over with the larger increase, to me it doesn't make a difference whether it is all or once, or 42 ASE now, and 42 ASE in a second update two months later.

You assume the next update would have been two months later. Without the Store, it might have been 42 now, and 42 in 8 months. Or even twelve months. Nobody knows. But it's awfully convenient for your point of view to assume and then state matter-of-factly that it would have been only two months later.

I don't have a problem with people paying for immediacy.

Except for all that "paying for the immediacy" in the aggregate results in the very same thing you acknowledge as a problem at the outset. I'm having a very hard time finding a consistent thread throughout all your long posts. You seem to just dart hither and thither as the mood takes you (and opposing arguments dictate).

I obviously don't have a problem with the ASE grind, either in an 84 now or a 42 now, 42 later configuration. No need to rehash that. It's the same grind, either way, and in both cases I can make reasonable, steady progress towards the goal in reasonable chunks of play time.

I'm pretty sure you're the guy who said this back in the Bullroarer forums. It's just not that simple. The "later" is relative. You merely assert a "two month" window between the 42 and 42. When we all agree (and we do) that MMOs progress, it's all about the degree of increase, and the duration between them.

You seem pretty bright. So it's astounding to me that you keep saying that it's 84 now, instead of 42 + 42 separated by an arbitrary timeframe you've picked out of the air. Yet there's no indication here in the real world that it isn't going to be 84 now, and 84 a month from now. And another 84 a few months after that. You say it was too much. . . but then you engage in fanciful conjecture to try to rationalize that 84 away ("oh, they would have just arrived at 84 two months later!"). . . why is it you never consider that in the absence of the Store business model, it might have been much lower, and much slower in perpetuity. . . if we even had Imbuement at all.

Buying something on the AH for gold or buying something in the Store for TP is the same thing to me. In both cases, it's the value of my time to generate the gold or the TP (or the dollars required to purchase TP), represented by different forms of intangible currency.

It's a shame that those who still believe in earning what they achieve in a game are gradually being forced out by the ever-increasing grinds that are a result of this mindset (and the business model that caters to it).

--H

[Hurin]

And what makes you think I want any one to glance at anything I would write on this thread? What I wrote was for the DEVs to read so that it will balance the thread. What you don't understand or fail to recognize is the player who have been in LOTRO 8+ years have heard all of this before so we usually don't bother coming to these types of things very often. It's always the same, "the grind it too grindy!" which translates to: "I don't or can't do it all because I just started on _/__/__ and I will never be top dog if I have to do all of this just to catch up".

Also, my heart bleeds for you. Oh Yeah. I have brought several chars to cap and all that I have brought to 100 have clean blank pages in their deed journals and are fully rep'd. It's not because I skipped them but because I do what is required when I create and then decide to level a char to cap. But I have only 2 mains who I will suit up for raiding, just in case there ever is a raid again. The biggest difference is that I don't care when I get anything accomplished. I use to, but now I don't. So I may just as well take my time and do it as it comes along. But if you really want to be cap'd asap then let me assure you it is possible to have a gimpy cap'd char in about 3-4 weeks. I have seen it done often enough.

Whining is moaning and pouting about the same thing that has been moaned and pouted about several times before.
Fed up is a lack of patience when hear someone starting the same old song for the 900th time.

If I whine, it is not going to be about LOTRO. I think Turbine has done a great job with the games they have made. I like LOTRO but I do not want it dumb'd down for anymore than it has been.

I find your views intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[littlesquinky]

And what makes you think I want any one to glance at anything I would write on this thread? What I wrote was for the DEVs to read so that it will balance the thread. What you don't understand or fail to recognize is the player who have been in LOTRO 8+ years have heard all of this before so we usually don't bother coming to these types of things very often. It's always the same, "the grind it too grindy!" which translates to: "I don't or can't do it all because I just started on _/__/__ and I will never be top dog if I have to do all of this just to catch up".

Also, my heart bleeds for you. Oh Yeah. I have brought several chars to cap and all that I have brought to 100 have clean blank pages in their deed journals and are fully rep'd. It's not because I skipped them but because I do what is required when I create and then decide to level a char to cap. But I have only 2 mains who I will suit up for raiding, just in case there ever is a raid again. The biggest difference is that I don't care when I get anything accomplished. I use to, but now I don't. So I may just as well take my time and do it as it comes along. But if you really want to be cap'd asap then let me assure you it is possible to have a gimpy cap'd char in about 3-4 weeks. I have seen it done often enough.

Whining is moaning and pouting about the same thing that has been moaned and pouted about several times before.
Fed up is a lack of patience when hear someone starting the same old song for the 900th time.

If I whine, it is not going to be about LOTRO. I think Turbine has done a great job with the games they have made. I like LOTRO but I do not want it dumb'd down for anymore than it has been.

People here aren't complaining because they arent handed down things right and now, they are complaining because everything is gated by hours and hours and hours of repetitive easy bottable content. Solo dailies, bbs that do not require any skill or team coordination at all but just time to grind ranks and when you are rank6 all of them are easy as strolls in the shire.

And all of this has been designed and developed on purpose to force people to buy grind reducers in the store. All of the game development since helms deep has been executed with this goal in mind. All of it, it just takes someone some small experience in software design to see the big picture.

In this thread I have seen people asking for fun, interesting, challening content, be it solo or group, by which acquiring gear and equipment, gating by skill and not by time, as it is in any well designed game. As it was in SOA, and still was till Isengard. And they are called whiners for this, LOL, how sad.

[Arnenna]

And what makes you think I want any one to glance at anything I would write on this thread? What I wrote was for the DEVs to read so that it will balance the thread. What you don't understand or fail to recognize is the player who have been in LOTRO 8+ years have heard all of this before so we usually don't bother coming to these types of things very often. It's always the same, "the grind it too grindy!" which translates to: "I don't or can't do it all because I just started on _/__/__ and I will never be top dog if I have to do all of this just to catch up".

Also, my heart bleeds for you. Oh Yeah. I have brought several chars to cap and all that I have brought to 100 have clean blank pages in their deed journals and are fully rep'd. It's not because I skipped them but because I do what is required when I create and then decide to level a char to cap. But I have only 2 mains who I will suit up for raiding, just in case there ever is a raid again. The biggest difference is that I don't care when I get anything accomplished. I use to, but now I don't. So I may just as well take my time and do it as it comes along. But if you really want to be cap'd asap then let me assure you it is possible to have a gimpy cap'd char in about 3-4 weeks. I have seen it done often enough.

Whining is moaning and pouting about the same thing that has been moaned and pouted about several times before.
Fed up is a lack of patience when hear someone starting the same old song for the 900th time.

If I whine, it is not going to be about LOTRO. I think Turbine has done a great job with the games they have made. I like LOTRO but I do not want it dumb'd down for anymore than it has been.

Yes yes, we can all do the post title tricks.

If you had an ounce of understanding of what people are saying, or if you took enough time to actually read what is being written, you would see that most people in this thread don't want the game dumbed down any further either. Nobody is asking for anything to be given to us, we are asking for a better, more productive way of playing the game. That could be better end game, instead of monotonous repetition for months on end. It could be tougher instances or raids - you know, something to make forming groups worth doing. It could be a whole host of great things, like what Bango reminds us of (SoA days). It needn't be a silver platter or the give-away you have assumed people want, in fact, that kind of platter would indeed be worse than the worst of all grinds. I'd rather grind easy, than be given easy, but given those two choices, its all looking a bit bleak.

I don't want to be weapon cap'd asap, and with what we have now, my 2 mains already are, and were within a few weeks of the last update - because it's so flippin easy to do. Boring as hell, but easy, and not something I wish to repeat another 8 times on alts. It would be better all around if this LI grind carried something for everyone - like Empos into raids and instances, there's a thought - maybe it would get a few more people into the raids instead if the robotic daily solos. It would help to bring alts up to speed, it would give more choices to more players and breath a bit of life back into the game.

And please stop with the "I've played 8+ years so I know better", because until you can read and understand a point that is spelled out for you, without being reduced to a name calling know-it-all (right back at ya), you will never know anything better than anybody else or be better than anyone else.

Just because you only run two mains and want to take your time (but by self admission, you weren't always in preference of that method), doesn't mean that everyone else is, or that they must be - just because you are now and you say so. It doesn't mean that they are "dumb" because they aren't either. Get off that horse before you fall and bump that already inflated head of yours. Did it ever occur to you that some people are just in the place now, where you once were? And just a little FIY for you, you won't often see me whine, or moan about Turbine, and I never ever pout.

You've probably guessed by now, I really dislike name calling or belittling mannerisms in debate, it really isn't needed to form and express an opinion. Unfortunately you bring that in abundance, and bring out the devil in me - which isn't very pretty.

Debate the topic, not the people.

Have a good one everyone, G'nite/G'day to you all. Time for me to get out.

[Arnenna]

I find your views intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Stop that lol. The posts are giving me whiplash - anger, laughter, anger, laughter.

Ok, I feel better again

but I am leaving for tonight. G'nite all.

[bucko39]

I think Turbine has done a great job with the games they have made.

I agree 100%, they've done a great job--especially with Infinite Crisis...oh wait.

[ertr]

You are not aware that those publishers of different dictionaries update them yearly. So here you are minus all the definitive variations:
grind /?ra?nd/


verb13. Digital Technology. (in a video game) to perform a monotonous task repeatedly in order to advance a character to a higher level or rank: You have to grind for hours before you can embark on the main story mission.



But you probably weren't aware that people who decide what words are commonly used are also playing video games or video. On the other hand, maybe you just need to update your dictionaries annually. (*Just in case you don't know, I am joking and teasing you just a bit*)

I am mostly used to paper dictionaries - and those are not updated yearly. (Yes, I am old-fashioned and can even remember times before the Internet.)
But even so, I must admit that even a quick google-search did not reveal that definition to me.

[Scirocco]

Oh. Okay. So you basically agree there's a problem. But for some reason you still insist on declaring everything to be fine. Reading all the twists and turns, shucking and jiving, one begins to wonder if you're perhaps just reflexively contrarian. Even when you suspect you might be wrong, you still like to engage in various forms of sophistry to try to see if you can still make lemonade from rotten lemons, and then even convince others it tastes good.


You assume the next update would have been two months later. Without the Store, it might have been 42 now, and 42 in 8 months. Or even twelve months. Nobody knows. But it's awfully convenient for your point of view to assume and then state matter-of-factly that it would have been only two months later.


Except for all that "paying for the immediacy" in the aggregate results in the very same thing you acknowledge as a problem at the outset. I'm having a very hard time finding a consistent thread throughout all your long posts. You seem to just dart hither and thither as the mood takes you (and opposing arguments dictate).


I'm pretty sure you're the guy who said this back in the Bullroarer forums. It's just not that simple. The "later" is relative. You merely assert a "two month" window between the 42 and 42. When we all agree (and we do) that MMOs progress, it's all about the degree of increase, and the duration between them.

You seem pretty bright. So it's astounding to me that you keep saying that it's 84 now, instead of 42 + 42 separated by an arbitrary timeframe you've picked out of the air. Yet there's no indication here in the real world that it isn't going to be 84 now, and 84 a month from now. And another 84 a few months after that. You say it was too much. . . but then you engage in fanciful conjecture to try to rationalize that 84 away ("oh, they would have just arrived at 84 two months later!"). . . why is it you never consider that in the absence of the Store business model, it might have been much lower, and much slower in perpetuity. . . if we even had Imbuement at all.


It's a shame that those who still believe in earning what they achieve in a game are gradually being forced out by the ever-increasing grinds that are a result of this mindset (and the business model that caters to it).

--H

We must be looking at grind differently (and I keep in mind that grind is a matter of perception).

For example, I look at the ILI in terms of how much time I will have to spend in the game to unlock all the locked tier caps. This is X hours. It doesn't matter to me whether the X hours are spread out over a month, three months, or a year. The grind to me is the same.

Thus, this particular ILI grind in all of the following circumstances to me is the same:

1. 84 able to be unlocked now.

2. 42 able to be unlocked now and 42 able to be unlocked in 3 months.

3. 42 now and 42 in 6 months (or 9 months, or a year).

4. 21 now, 21 in 3 months, 21 in 6 months, and 21 in 9 months.

You get the idea, I'm sure. Personally, I'd rather have the 84 now, because I can unlock all the tiers as quickly as I can, if I want to, and have the benefit of the more power ILI earlier. If so inclined, I can spread that 84 over a longer period. My choice. I don't need a schedule imposed on me to make the grind feel less (when it really isn't).

Of course, this looks at the grind in isolation. There may be some game design reasons to spread the unlockable caps out over the course of several months or a year (for example, there would have been no point in making the character level cap at 100 at release 8 years ago, when there was only content for up to level 50). In this case, I do make good use of my 100/44 ILIs, so I am happy to have the 84 tiers able to be unlocked now.

Why do you see the grind being different between cases 1-4? In which case do you perceive the grind as being less? Is there any case in which you perceive the grind as reasonable?

[Hurin]

Why do you see the grind being different between cases 1-4? In which case do you perceive the grind as being less? Is there any case in which you perceive the grind as reasonable?

I don't see a difference between 1-4. But note that you went out of your way (as always) to make sure it comes back to that number of 84. You always assume that we're set to have just these 84 to deal with for the foreseeable future.

There would have been a benefit, however, to them only raising it by 21 (or even 42) this last go-round though. We would then not be worrying about the next time they will raise it by +84 and how soon that will happen.

But what if it's 84 every six months? What if it's 84 every three months? Right now, we don't know. But we do know that the last increase was huge: 84 (+crystals). We have every reason to believe that +84 will be the norm. And there's no reason to assume (as you seem to do) that it will only be an annual (or semi-rare) increase of +84.

Let me turn the question around on you. . . at what number and what pace would it be too much for you? One suspects that you'd accept just about anything. And if it became too much, you'd just buy them outright.

Thanks, that's not a game to me. It's bizarre to me how far you'll go to defend endgame/progression-as-daily-tasks. But, honestly, I don't actually think your heart is in any of this. I think you're just engaging in an intellectual exercise at this point.

--H

[Hurin]

Shorter version. . .

What's the difference over the next three years of playing if they increase the needed scrolls by. . .

21 scrolls every six months. (126 scrolls over the remaining playtime)

or

84 scrolls every six months. (504 scrolls over the remaining playtime)

There you go. That's why I "see a difference" between a +84 increase and a +21 increase. And why it's bizarre to me that you assume that the last +84 we saw will be the last for any appreciable period of time. After all, you're here all but saying that you're ready for more. And if it ever gets to be too much, you'll gladly hand over cash for them. The mind boggles. . .

[Scirocco]

Shorter version. . .

What's the difference over the next three years of playing if they increase the needed scrolls by. . .

21 scrolls every six months. (126 scrolls over the remaining playtime)

or

84 scrolls every six months. (504 scrolls over the remaining playtime)

There you go. That's why I "see a difference" between a +84 increase and a +21 increase. And why it's bizarre to me that you assume that the last +84 we saw will be the last for any appreciable period of time. After all, you're here all but saying that you're ready for more. And if it ever gets to be too much, you'll gladly hand over cash for them. The mind boggles. . .

But I'm not assuming that the +84 would be the last for any appreciable period of time. And yes, I would be ready for more. (I am not fixated on 84, by the way, and am only using it because that's the current number of ASEs required for this particular update. It could be any number: 44, 64, 104, ....)

In my case, given your example, I would like 84 scrolls every 6 months, assuming an update like this one. That's 20 days grind, assuming I didn't spend any time in between each update doing anything that generated the necessary currency. Of course, I would be generating necessary currency in-between updates, so I'd probably max out one LI the first day, and then spend a couple of weeks at a more relaxed pace on the second ILI.

If they changed the grind so that it was no longer acceptable, I would end up taking another long break from the game, perhaps never to return. That's what happened with the Osg instance armor grind. It was unacceptable to me, so I just refused to do it at all. And the fact that the BIS 5-slot armor was gated in this way left a bad taste in my mouth, so I took off for 2 months, and only came back with the MT update.

But that's speculative, because we talking about what the ILI grind may turn into. If the cost to unlock each tier remains what it currently is, and ASEs (or the equivalent) are as readily obtainable, the ILI grind will remain acceptable for at least the foreseeable future.

[siipperi]

We must be looking at grind differently (and I keep in mind that grind is a matter of perception).

For example, I look at the ILI in terms of how much time I will have to spend in the game to unlock all the locked tier caps. This is X hours. It doesn't matter to me whether the X hours are spread out over a month, three months, or a year. The grind to me is the same.

Thus, this particular ILI grind in all of the following circumstances to me is the same:

1. 84 able to be unlocked now.

2. 42 able to be unlocked now and 42 able to be unlocked in 3 months.

3. 42 now and 42 in 6 months (or 9 months, or a year).

4. 21 now, 21 in 3 months, 21 in 6 months, and 21 in 9 months.

You get the idea, I'm sure. Personally, I'd rather have the 84 now, because I can unlock all the tiers as quickly as I can, if I want to, and have the benefit of the more power ILI earlier. If so inclined, I can spread that 84 over a longer period. My choice. I don't need a schedule imposed on me to make the grind feel less (when it really isn't).

Of course, this looks at the grind in isolation. There may be some game design reasons to spread the unlockable caps out over the course of several months or a year (for example, there would have been no point in making the character level cap at 100 at release 8 years ago, when there was only content for up to level 50). In this case, I do make good use of my 100/44 ILIs, so I am happy to have the 84 tiers able to be unlocked now.

Why do you see the grind being different between cases 1-4? In which case do you perceive the grind as being less? Is there any case in which you perceive the grind as reasonable?

Aren't you cute? We rest prefer grinding that old a bit over dozen and be done with the grind for atleast a year.... But we dont expect you to get it.

[FyreBrand]

Ironically, the initial cost for ASEs and ASCs in terms of SOMs were less than half of what they are now. But some folks complained that this made acquiring them too easy, so the prices got jacked up for Live.

As this thread shows, at least a substantial part of the "grind" affliction is self-inflicted.

First, MMORPGs and grind go together. From day 1, you grind levels, grind for improved gear, grind for stats, grind for virtues, grind reputation, and so on. If you continue to play an MMORPG for years, you have to got to be getting some enjoyment from the grind. So-called end game content, of whatever sort you prefer, is equally grindy. For newer games, or at least the first time through, it may not appear to be so, but that's because we enjoy what we're doing. If you enjoy it, it's not a grind (or, at least, less of one).

Second, LOTRO's grind is perfectly fine for those advancing a single character (and probably is even less of a grind than many other MMORPGs). The OP brought up the grind associated with the new MT content, but on an individual basis, it's rather brief: I completed all deeds and quests and got my 4 trait points by the 4th day after release, with only a reasonable amount of time playing each day. Admittedly, I am a focused, efficient powergamer type, but even so, it would reasonable for most gamers to reach that same point after a week or two.

Third, I agree that if you multiply that single character grind (which is acceptable) by 10 or more, the grind can become crushing. But if you are going to try max 10 characters, it is not unreasonable to expect you to spend 10x the amount of time as I did for one character.

Or, more practically, if you really feel compelled to max 10 characters, and don't want to spend 10x the amount of time doing so, it is reasonable to expect you to pay, and pay well, for the privilege of shortening the time spent on that cumulative, self-inflicted grind.

Other games I play (like SWTOR, ESO, and a couple others) have account wide advancement/legacy systems. This makes advancing an alt far less painful. Once you go through the grind to unlock something you can use it with your alt. You still need to meet some requirements, but the grind is more additive than multiplicative. Sometimes you must complete things per character, but other perks are unlocked per account. It's greater than 1x the work, but much less than 10x the work. That is the approach I would like to see Turbine take.

[Scirocco]

Other games I play (like SWTOR, ESO, and a couple others) have account wide advancement/legacy systems. This makes advancing an alt far less painful. Once you go through the grind to unlock something you can use it with your alt. You still need to meet some requirements, but the grind is more additive than multiplicative. Sometimes you must complete things per character, but other perks are unlocked per account. It's greater than 1x the work, but much less than 10x the work. That is the approach I would like to see Turbine take.

I have been persuaded concerning the advantages of having some way to at least lessen the grind for multiple-alt players, or for players trying to play "catch-up." I think the approaches you mention would be fine, and would encourage players to remain engaged with the game.

[Lilywarrior]

....

And all of this has been designed and developed on purpose to force people to buy grind reducers in the store. All of the game development since helms deep has been executed with this goal in mind. All of it, it just takes someone some small experience in software design to see the big picture.

In this thread I have seen people asking for fun, interesting, challening content, be it solo or group, by which acquiring gear and equipment, gating by skill and not by time, as it is in any well designed game. As it was in SOA, and still was till Isengard. And they are called whiners for this, LOL, how sad.

Actually, the game was designed with what you called grind in mind and if you think it is bad now you should have been there at the get 'go'. So I guarantee you that there was no store at the time and the store was not into the game until Turbine realized that selling lifetime subscriptions was not going to pay the salaries of the people they employ nor even the rent on the building or the cost of the equipment, hard and soft, they need to develop and maintain the games they now have.

What everyone wants, me included, is the game to be different for every class character so that they will have a game experience that is different every single time they roll a new char. That is not economically feasible for any MMOG, especially a F2P Contracted based game that must come to and end when the contract is no longer renewed. The only time I have found such a thing as that is in AC1 (Asheron's Call) which is no longer maintained but still playable. In that game, which had classes, it had an actual custom builder for you characters. I'm not talking about race, face, and T&A builder. I am talking about what is virtues, attributes, and skills builder as they are presented so neatly packaged in LOTRO. In AC1 creating a custom char meant you actually had to plan your char before playing it. You had the opportunity to place points in the attributes that would make your char unique. Everytime you had xp you would apply it where ever you wanted, not like the gated tree-system that is COMMON now. Do you know why? Because it is easier to maintain game balance if all the chars are limited to within a set parameter. When a player is not fenced-in and throttled by the systems that are out there now the developers are the ones who are spending hours grinding trying to keep the game balanced and easy until they finally give up and just make harder content, letting the chips fall where they may. That is not possible in LOTRO because they cannot have a player who is so savy about the game's balance that the player ends up stronger than Aragorn, Gandalf, or Sauron. So face it, LOTRO is a game that allows us to be in the story as it was written (somewhat) by Tolkien. We are the foot soldiers, not the actual heroes. This is not WoW whose background story changes to meet Blizzard's needs, it is Tolkien's lore and that is the contractual licensing agreement.

[Atrixzia]

Its absolutely mad now the grind required for an imbued LI. My Captain is now lvl 97 and should be starting her first imbued weapon soon. To be honest i am not sure if i will bother after reading the amount of grinding required for just one weapon. I have already spent many hours grinding for virtues and trait points doing slayer deeds and exploration deeds. Do i really want to spend many more hours creating a weapon that i am not sure i will ever require. The idea of a LI you can start with and keep is a good one far better than having to replace them every few lvls but it seems badly done.

I am just starting Gondor and so far and while it is harder now the vast majority of fights i get into are still not difficult and that's with mainly quest armour and a lvl 95 LI sword. I do raid a bit but i am not a big raider.

So can somebody tell me why i need to create an imbued LI

[Atrixzia]

Well i would have been attached to it and prepared to invest more time in it. That would be the ideal way LIs worked. After all at one point in the epic at the end of mirkwood you revisit moria and you meet the Dwarf who gave you your first LI he asks how you liked the supposedly rare weapon and you almost say well i dumped it after a few lvls.

[Scirocco]

How would you have felt about the weapon if you could have imbued at 50, and worked on it all the way to level cap?

Interesting question.

The overall grind would probably be an order of magnitude higher than what we see right now, but perhaps it would be more acceptable if spread over several years. People would definitely be more attached to their LIs, but the "catch-up" problem would probably be more of an issue.

It probably would put more of a damper on multiple alts, too. If I were leveling up an alt I wanted to cap right now, for example, I would not spend any time on grinding any LIs until I reached 100. Unless you could start an LI at levels other than 50, my alt would feel compelled to get the ILI at 50 and start grinding. Even if I leveled to 100 without it before starting the ILI process, I'd likely have the grind from 50-100 added on top of the current grind.

[littlesquinky]

Actually, the game was designed with what you called grind in mind and if you think it is bad now you should have been there at the get 'go'. So I guarantee you that there was no store at the time and the store was not into the game until Turbine realized that selling lifetime subscriptions was not going to pay the salaries of the people they employ nor even the rent on the building or the cost of the equipment, hard and soft, they need to develop and maintain the games they now have.

I'll keep it short; founder here with pre order lifetime account since april 2007, been in beta since the beta was public. Gosh, I was there at the go! Every morpg needs grind, no company can develop content at the pace players play it. However that grind should be reasonable and well disguised, which is not the case with the current state of lotro. When the game was launched grind was nothing compared to what it is now, there was virtue grinding only and mob grinding until they delivered book9 which filled the gaps in levels 35-42.

The transition to f2p was made because the game after som was failing fast. Lifetime subs have nothing to do with that, they were a good deal for turbine, in fact they sold them again with moria. If they werent a good deal why sell them again with mom? Game after som was dying because the content developed was not good enough to keep players playing, they made wrong development choices like radiance, which was a bad idea from the start and LIS started to show how badly implemented they were at 65.

Oh and the habit of missing self imposed deadlines, like lothlorien being in MOM from start but delayed for months, same thing for DN raid.

Bottom line, grind in soa mom era was manageable by everyone with an hour a day to spare, now is not. Character progression in soa-mom was mostly skill gated (with mom introducing time sink grinds like repeating 36 runs at avrage to get armour pieces), now character progression is entirely time/money gated.

[Lilywarrior]

Yes yes, we can all do the post title tricks.

If you had an ounce of understanding of what people are saying, or if you took enough time to actually read what is being written, you would see that most people in this thread don't want the game dumbed down any further either. Nobody is asking for anything to be given to us, we are asking for a better, more productive way of playing the game. That could be better end game, instead of monotonous repetition for months on end. It could be tougher instances or raids - you know, something to make forming groups worth doing. It could be a whole host of great things, like what Bango reminds us of (SoA days). It needn't be a silver platter or the give-away you have assumed people want, in fact, that kind of platter would indeed be worse than the worst of all grinds. I'd rather grind easy, than be given easy, but given those two choices, its all looking a bit bleak.

I don't want to be weapon cap'd asap, and with what we have now, my 2 mains already are, and were within a few weeks of the last update - because it's so flippin easy to do. Boring as hell, but easy, and not something I wish to repeat another 8 times on alts. It would be better all around if this LI grind carried something for everyone - like Empos into raids and instances, there's a thought - maybe it would get a few more people into the raids instead if the robotic daily solos. It would help to bring alts up to speed, it would give more choices to more players and breath a bit of life back into the game.

And please stop with the "I've played 8+ years so I know better", because until you can read and understand a point that is spelled out for you, without being reduced to a name calling know-it-all (right back at ya), you will never know anything better than anybody else or be better than anyone else.

Just because you only run two mains and want to take your time (but by self admission, you weren't always in preference of that method), doesn't mean that everyone else is, or that they must be - just because you are now and you say so. It doesn't mean that they are "dumb" because they aren't either. Get off that horse before you fall and bump that already inflated head of yours. Did it ever occur to you that some people are just in the place now, where you once were? And just a little FIY for you, you won't often see me whine, or moan about Turbine, and I never ever pout.

You've probably guessed by now, I really dislike name calling or belittling mannerisms in debate, it really isn't needed to form and express an opinion. Unfortunately you bring that in abundance, and bring out the devil in me - which isn't very pretty.

Debate the topic, not the people.

Have a good one everyone, G'nite/G'day to you all. Time for me to get out.

First, I re-read my posts this morning and you're right, I could have said things much better. But I did not call anyone any names and by saying I didn't want the game dumb'd down any further does not imply that any one is dumb. You assume I haven't read because I don't agree with you. I don't agree with you, that doesn't make you dumb or petulant fool. However I'm arrogant, so shoot me. I never personally attacked anyone at all yet you have attacked me an my character which is something that you said brings out the worst in you. Be careful about calling out the devils lest you find one within yourself.

So for the topic.

The virtue system is a base game design of LOTRO. As you are aware it is easier to scrap a design before it is implemented than to than it to rewrite it. LOTRO is further laden with the class based design system. It may safely be assumed that most players are more comfortable with some type of guidance system set into the game from the moment they decide to play the game; the class based systems offer that reassurance. It may be assumed that when players state they play MMOGs they are doing so for the social aspect as much as the gaming aspect but what they really mean is that they only want the social aspect of the game to be that which they tolerate in their personal daily lives, hence the problem of a class system based game design. It is a well know fact that humans are most comfortable with others who exhibit and share common characteristics and interests. It might be safe to assume that if a player first desire is to make a certain class of character then the players in the game that he/she will be most comfortable with have chosen that same type of class lines also. Yet a class system game design is to promote groupings because not one character can be all classes or customize their class to have a greater variability so as to be playable across classes. Turbine is fixing LOTRO and that is something that nobody in this thread seems to noted. This is what I take exception to. Give suggestions and possible starting points. Also realize that if you are mentioning other games you think do something better then why aren't you playing the other game? 'You' as being informal meaning no particular person at all.

The Virtue Trait system was the only way we players could customize our chars. It wasn't enough and the grind was much more pronounced than it is now. There was no store and no way to shorten it. Many complained because they thought it was the grind but it was actually the only minor and limited way they could customize their play style. Turbine understood that and so with the Mines of Moria came the Legendary System. It is an excellent system that builds on the character class system allowing a refinement to the class. Next up came the Trait Tree system, a nice way to add a refining mechanism to the Virtue System. Players are no longer forced to adapt their playing styles and goals to the system but the system is becoming more responsive to player's customization. That was a big hit with a lot of players so it certainly seemed it would be ok to introduce everyone to a 3rd Legendary Item that would also combine on top of what they had learned about the trait trees. When I listen to world chat I understand that this doesn't work for every player. I know it certainly moved me outside of my comfort zone until I felt I had mastered it as much as I was ever going to be able to. My main complaint is that what I spent to slot the appropriate relics into the bridle did not reflect on my character in any other aspect of game play except mounted combat. In my own opinion, that is too much to ask of a player even if the player is a completionist. The other failed system was the profession guilds in an already overly complicated crafting system. As is the chat system that has how many different channels which are hardly, if ever, used. But l get ahead of myself here let me continue with the evolution of LOTRO.

Now the Game is growing up and getting interesting.

From 0-99, except for some roleplayers, is the tutorial to today's game. This NEW LOTRO is all about customizing your character through the Legendary System.

The Imbuement System of Legendary Items is something I personally have been wanting from day one with day one being while I was still in AC1 before Turbine and VU set their eyes on tLotR. I always want to choose a weapon and build it to suit me and then have it grow with me. But it is extraordinarily expensive the way it is set up now. It forces players to dedicate time to repetitive actions in nearly every facet of the game and it needs to be refined. More about this later.

The Slotted Armour System is the Virtue System on steroids. It also needs refining.

Sooner or later Turbine/Warner Brothers are going to have to realize that they are asking too much of the majority of players to fully entertain this stage of the game. It takes too much time, effort or money to get a an imbued weapon that is good for one one aspect and the same is true of Armour.

There is no logical reason that a person should have to pay, in either hard currency or in game currencies, for a scroll that is going to release the relics and essences from their Legendary items. Those are our virtual items and we worked our virtual butts off to get them. Ideally, one type of legendary weapon, one legendary item, and one set of armour should be all there is now. The relics and the essences should be as easily to change out as it is for us to change our Trait Trees. There should be a place to store each set and I would suggest the packs where the chars now store consumables and loot, etc. Turbine did a great job allowing us to customize our bags but they could take that one step further by tyeing in certain bags to certain Trait Trees. That way, when we switch our trait tree our 'tied-to-gear' automatically switches.

I currently have a friend in game who is a hard-line gamer with limited financial freedom at the moment. It is safe to assume that this is the case with most people. This particular player has decided to work only with the game mechanics to build legendary items/gear. This player has multiple cap'd chars that are kept raid ready. Typical raider personality. For the past 3 weeks I have been witness to this players growing frustration of repetitive road work which the player feels is mandatory unless actually currency is finally broached. The player is approaching what I recognize as burn-out from my years in hospital settings.

Dear Turbine/Warner Brothers LOTRO Team,

The following are some possible opening suggestions for some of the current frustrations players are experiencing in the game:

1. It is time to reassess the Legendary Relic System. Once an item is Imbued:
   
   1. Players should be able to tie specific relics to a Trait Tree
   2. The Scrolls for Relic Removal must not be required once the LI has been Imbued.
      
      1. Make this an option? Perhaps a quest chain that will lead to the reward such as merchant discount? Make it a one time buy item like the mount skill for all the account?
      2. Charge for change out with in game currency but don't get ridiculously greedy about charging more a couple hundred silver. You could always count the changes into the repair system you know?
   
   
2. I like to think I understand the allure of the Essence System but really? What good is an Essence in an armour to a soloist if they go into a raid? If it makes no or little difference then why even have them? If they do make a difference then why limit us from using them simply because of our reluctance to do hours and hours of the same ol' stuff or to open our pocket books?
   
   1. Working for essences is fine but it must be understood that they are our property by the virtue of our cash, hours, or repetitive tasking. Get rid of the that scroll removal. It has to go.
   2. Allow us to tie our essences to our Trait Trees for quick change out.
   3. If you want to charge us 1 TP, or 1 Whatever the Mode-du-Coin is, or100 silver for those changes, it is more reasonable than stealing our labor and setting us back to beginner level 100-> NO!
   4. Make it so that if essences are tied to a specific Trait Tree then the Visual color of the Armour changes to correspond with the attributes. Example: A Red/Yellow Trait Tree would be Orange. The color wheel sort of thing.
   5. Let us imbue our armour and then allow us to customize it a bit by being able to select from a few chosen looks everytime where have upgraded it by 10 levels.
   6. Let us earn extra slots and armour or stat and armour/stats as we move through the game.
   
   
3. Give the players who have no interest in achieving cap'd status a similar way to achieving their goals. You've been doing pretty good so far, Turbine.
4. Review and revive the Chat system please. Too many channels and while I understand that this is not a problem with servers it appears to make the game look less populated.

For us players:
We must realize that we are not going to change the game by complaining. We can ruin participation for a large majority of people who will leave the game and the forums by excessive complaining. If you can't think of a solution other than 'In this game I use to play they did it so much better" then just don't bother. Turbine employees play LOTRO, AC1, maybe AC2, DDO, WoW, and nearly every game out there. (I've always wondered how many play Might & Magic). If you offer a suggestion that will give the developers and team members somewhere to stop rather than a ghost hunt.

Raiders are a small percentage of players. If you are a raider you are probably not a business owner with a young family. You are more likely to be a teenager with excess time because you didn't go out for sports, theater, band or an after-school job. You might also be a college student inbetween finals and no boy/girl friend, and who doesn't have to work full time in order to put themselves through college. It is possible that you could be a middle-age person who is disabled or even an retired person. Raiding requires quite a bit of preparation. What raiders are actually complaining about is that they work to raid in the game and there is then not a chain of ongoing raids. Why would there be considering what must be done and the costliness of raiding and making a raid.

Turbine, Thank you for beginning to fix the crafting. The next legendary/essence systems combined with the crafting guild was bothersome. If you would further refine it so that we may have any crafter gather whatever resources are available provided we have a universal tool to gather, then I would be extraordinarily grateful.

I don't see how more clearly LOTRO can be Charted. It goes from point to point to point with every branch being brought back to the point which is the Book quests. The only way a player can lose their way is if they don't ever do the book quests.

Sorry for all the typos and mistakes in grammar. It is difficult to type with a thought in mind with a cat who insists on sleeping on part of the keyboard and a Shiba Inu who remembers you promised to play freesbie after a walk.