If you got a "pound of flesh" item with the release of 18.2 would you be happy?

[Thorgrum]

So Turbine has created a raid. Do you remember the poop storm years ago when our former community manager took raiders and PvMP players to task as, what was it "vocal minorities"?

I do it was an ugly period one glossed over way to much here. So I am curious for those who survived the purges of that period if you were to get an in game item called "a pound of flesh" A pocket item, I housing item, would it be enough?

It looks to me there are a lot of people happy with Turbine at the moment and rightfully so, this new team has fixed an old wrong. Still the question remains, as this justifies what raiders were saying years ago, only to be squashed is this raid enough or do you want a pound of flesh with it ?

[Pfeifenkraut]

When someone does "better" you don't punish them because it isn't "best".

We'll get a lot further with positive reinforcement than by making them feel that it's never going to be good enough, that they can never win with us.

I've been watching a team of fewer people working much harder to try to give us the things we've wanted all along. I cheer for that!

[Denhith]

So Turbine has created a raid. Do you remember the poop storm years ago when our former community manager took raiders and PvMP players to task as, what was it "vocal minorities"?

I do it was an ugly period one glossed over way to much here. So I am curious for those who survived the purges of that period if you were to get an in game item called "a pound of flesh" A pocket item, I housing item, would it be enough?

It looks to me there are a lot of people happy with Turbine at the moment and rightfully so, this new team has fixed an old wrong. Still the question remains, as this justifies what raiders were saying years ago, only to be squashed is this raid enough or do you want a pound of flesh with it ?

I remember when the % comment was made. I also remember when the comment about not producing traditional group content for the foreseeable future was made.
Then I remember half of my kin leaving for another game that was--and still is--providing the content that LOTRO had decided not to.

This team hasn't "fixed" an old wrong. Producing one raid (which hasn't even gone live yet, I might add) after three years doesn't magically say "yeah, they were wrong, but we are trying to make it right"
Is it a step in the right direction? Sure.
Is it too late? Perhaps.

The Featured Instance content has people doing old instances that have been left in the dust for years. And it has to be said, there are a LOT of instances when you open that instance finder. Kudos to them for finally tapping into that.
Turbine is taking steps, but they have a long way to go.
What is needed is a sense of direction...something to give the players incentive to click that "VIP" button.
With other games I play, the executive producers are more forthcoming, the game is promoted WAY more than LOTRO, the community manager takes a more active roll in the forums, and the devs provide more feedback with the players.

Turbine won't apologize for anything that has happened in the past (if that is what you mean by pound of flesh). I have yet to hear them even make a sincere apology about the current performance issues that plague the game--especially after the new datacenter was so hyped up by them a few months prior. And saying "we appreciate your patience while we..." is not an apology.

I want them to care about this game more than the people playing it. Releasing what little promotional products they do littered with spelling errors (continuously) does not reflect that. Releasing content that they know is bugged and exploitable does not reflect that (the delay of the upcoming raid has given me some hope that they are turning the corner on that issue).

I want to know they are going to take class balancing seriously, what are their future plans? I want to know if we are going to get another raid--is this it for another 3 years or so...because if that is the case, it is definitely not enough.

[The_Jagannath]

So Turbine has created a raid. Do you remember the poop storm years ago when our former community manager took raiders and PvMP players to task as, what was it "vocal minorities"?

I do it was an ugly period one glossed over way to much here. So I am curious for those who survived the purges of that period if you were to get an in game item called "a pound of flesh" A pocket item, I housing item, would it be enough?

It looks to me there are a lot of people happy with Turbine at the moment and rightfully so, this new team has fixed an old wrong. Still the question remains, as this justifies what raiders were saying years ago, only to be squashed is this raid enough or do you want a pound of flesh with it ?

Oh Taco, thanks for another pretentious post. ^.^

... I remember when the % comment was made. I also remember when the comment about not producing traditional group content for the foreseeable future was made.
Then I remember half of my kin leaving for another game that was--and still is--providing the content that LOTRO had decided not to...

... Turbine is taking steps, but they have a long way to go...

A typical day down at Turbine HQ...

[Thorgrum]

Oh Taco, thanks for another pretentious post. ^.^







A typical day down at Turbine HQ...

Good boy for obeying your master, thats a good little puppy.

You have permission to reply to two more posts from me in any thread you want !

Good puppy !

[Thorgrum]

I want to know they are going to take class balancing seriously, what are their future plans? I want to know if we are going to get another raid--is this it for another 3 years or so...because if that is the case, it is definitely not enough.

Class balancing? That issue is so over blown its ridiculous. What balancing exactly do you mean? Do you mean the hunters crying about not doing as much DPS as the RK's? The Guarding not doing as much DPS as they used too after the bleed nerf? Wardens not doing as much DPS after the blue line nerf?

You realize that this game doesnt need balance and its simply a bad narrative to suggest there is any need for "balance" at all. What we have evolved to is who can create the highest DPS, heals or damage taken. The game is far to watered down for any meaningful balance its simply degrees of the 3 variables mentioned. Its really not that complex, its made complex by community members who appear to be arguing from a historical perspective but havent run, or had any content that required anything more than DPS in years.

[Constrictions]

Raiders, are you satisfied with a new raid or will you still find something to whine about?

The answer is probably yes to both.

[Thorgrum]

The answer is probably yes to both.

This doesnt leave me any space for further the bit. However I do have the jagoff here now, he cant seem to generate enough traffic with his own unimaginative tripe so I guess I'll use him to drive traffic/views for a bit.

Unless of course you want to put a little more meat on the bone?

[The_Jagannath]

Good boy for obeying your master, thats a good little puppy.

You have permission to reply to two more posts from me in any thread you want !

Good puppy !

This doesnt leave me any space for further the bit. However I do have the jagoff here now, he cant seem to generate enough traffic with his own unimaginative tripe so I guess I'll use him to drive traffic/views for a bit.

Unless of course you want to put a little more meat on the bone?

Jagoff... good one.

[Thorgrum]

Jagoff... good one.

You performed when desired I didnt even have to call you directly.

Stay in the thread and make sure it remains relevant for a few more days, like the good boy you are.

[The_Jagannath]

You performed when desired I didnt even have to call you directly.

Stay in the thread and make sure it remains relevant for a few more days, like the good boy you are.

[Denhith]

Class balancing? That issue is so over blown its ridiculous. What balancing exactly do you mean? Do you mean the hunters crying about not doing as much DPS as the RK's? The Guarding not doing as much DPS as they used too after the bleed nerf? Wardens not doing as much DPS after the blue line nerf?

You realize that this game doesnt need balance and its simply a bad narrative to suggest there is any need for "balance" at all. What we have evolved to is who can create the highest DPS, heals or damage taken. The game is far to watered down for any meaningful balance its simply degrees of the 3 variables mentioned. Its really not that complex, its made complex by community members who appear to be arguing from a historical perspective but havent run, or had any content that required anything more than DPS in years.

Assuming this thread wasn't just an excuse for you and Jag to have (yet another) forum wank-off...I'm talking about balance as a whole. This includes creating content that is more than just a DPS race. A tank should never be able to solo an on level 6-man or 12-man instance. A poorly geared RK shouldn't be able to out single-target DPS a well equipped Hunter or Burglar. The essence system needs to be reigned in. Turbine has decided to disregard our primary stats (throwing nine years of class building out the window) and gone for the cheap and easy morale and mastery fiasco we have now. If they were going to go that route, they should have just got rid of our primary stats to begin with, but I assume that would have involved too much dev time and $$.

The reason people are crying for balance is because they have run the content the past few years, acknowledge that it has been a DPS fest, but still want it to be corrected.
But to be fair, the complaining will be all for naught. Turbine doesn't play their own game, so their understanding of the classes in the game is sorely limited. As a result, the course we are on now will more than likely be how it is until the game goes into maintenance mode.

[Laerien]

This includes creating content that is more than just a DPS race.

I agree. I hope you understand that, if an instance script allows a dps race (and it should not) then the script must be fixed and not the players.

A tank should never be able to solo an on level 6-man or 12-man instance.

Assuming you understand that if this tank is able to solo those instances, it will be by players that are an exception to the rule. But hey, let suppose that even the worst tank in the game can do it... Would it be with the same efficiency and speed as a normal group? -Of course not... then why you insist comparing apples to oranges.


If this "tank" (or any class) is able to do it, why you care? I mean, this hurts your feelings or something? Otherwise, explain your reasoning.
----------

[Denhith]

1. I agree. I hope you understand that, if an instance script allows a dps race (and it should not) then the script must be fixed and not the players.
2. If this "tank" (or any class) is able to do it, why you care? I mean, this hurts your feelings or something? Otherwise, explain your reasoning.
----------

1. I'm pretty sure I made it clear I understood that.
2. If this has to actually be explained, then maybe LOTRO currently has the player base it deserves.

[Laerien]

2. If this has to actually be explained, then maybe LOTRO currently has the player base it deserves.

Nice try to avoid giving an answer and try to appear as intelligent. Then I have to assume that you have no valid reasons; at least, none that can be considered given by an adult or sane person.

[Denhith]

Nice try to avoid giving an answer and try to appear as intelligent. Then I have to assume that you have no valid reasons; at least, none that can be considered given by an adult or sane person.

And I assume you can't think for yourself and resort to insults to hide the fact you are clueless.

But just to be clear, if a single class can solo content that is supposed to be designed for group content then there is a flaw with the actual content and/or the classes themselves. With LOTRO, I'd argue it is a little of both. There really is no further explanation needed. The fact that it needed to be said speaks volumes about the current player base (you) and explains the current state of the game.

/shrug.

[Laerien]

And I assume you can't think for yourself and resort to insults to hide the fact you are clueless.

But just to be clear, if a single class can solo content that is supposed to be designed for group content then there is a flaw with the actual content and/or the classes themselves. With LOTRO, I'd argue it is a little of both. There really is no further explanation needed. The fact that it needed to be said speaks volumes about the current player base (you) and explains the current state of the game.

/shrug.

I asked you politely and you gave me a condescending answer and now you try to victimize yourself; accusing me of insulting, even when I haven't insulted you.

In fact, If I wanted to insult you, I could went the easy path and accuse you of selfishness and elitism, but I did not. I gave you the benefit of the doubt; and lets be clear, mmo communities are full of people who argue because "yes" or because "they want" to hide their real reasons; that was a long shot.

Anyways, you say that group content is flawed if it can be soloed by one class. Now this is interesting because many content can be soloed at some point, not only in LotRO but in many other mmos, and that does not mean is bad designed or flawed. Leaving the lack of scaling (group content that can be soloed because overleveling) aside, different classes have particular skills that make easier to solo; some more than others. The tank with self healing, for example, may solo group content slowly; other classes can benefit from stealth, kiting and pets. Developers have ways to prevent this, "tricks" to force grouping.

I'm a very critic person and sometimes arrogant with game designers, but I would feel dishonest discrediting the design of content or its quality if it can be played differently than "its purpose". Otherwise, for example, I should consider all those games that have been "speedrunned" flawed because some skilled players completed them in less time than they were supposed to take

Besides, soloing group content is not a general rule. Usually people who do that are very skilled, dedicate hours to strategy, to gear themselves, they fail many times, etc. It is not equivalent in any way to grouping.

Moreover, this is not even gamebreaking. Some player soloing group content with all the cons it means, barely affects anyone.

Now, since your reason is -please don't get offended- poor and arbitrary. Back to the question, why this affects you?

[Denhith]

1. I asked you politely and you gave me a condescending answer...
2. In fact, If I wanted to insult you, I could went the easy path and accuse you of selfishness and elitism...
3. Now this is interesting because many content can be soloed at some point, not only in LotRO but in many other mmos...

1. If implying that my feelings are somehow "hurt" is your way of asking politely (your first reply), we have different ideas of what is polite. Talk about condescending...
2. I'm not quite sure how wanting the classes and content to be more balanced has anything to do with selfishness or "elitism". But as you've been reaching in just about every reply...I can't say I'm surprised.
3. Name one other MMO where a tank can walk into a level cap dungeon designed for 6 or more players (on level) and solo the entire instance. I'm genuinely curious. Because in the other MMOs I've played, it's not possible (FFXIV, STO, Rift, etc.)

There should be a drastic difference between what a tank or any other class can accomplish with landscape mobs compared to what they can accomplish in content that was specifically designed for on-level group content.
Otherwise, what is the point of a developer(s) taking the time and resources to design group content and all the rewards that go with it if a single class can do it?

[The_Jagannath]

Assuming this thread wasn't just an excuse for you and Jag to have (yet another) forum wank-off...

I'm sorry. Did you want in? = |

@Denhith

I asked you politely and you gave me a condescending answer and now you try to victimize yourself; accusing me of insulting, even when I haven't insulted you...

@Denhith

... If this "tank" (or any class) is able to do it, why you care? I mean, this hurts your feelings or something? Otherwise, explain your reasoning.
----------

@Denhith

Nice try to avoid giving an answer and try to appear as intelligent. Then I have to assume that you have no valid reasons; at least, none that can be considered given by an adult or sane person.

Yeah, I can totally see how this might have been taken out of context.

[swamphobbit]

Class balancing? That issue is so over blown its ridiculous. What balancing exactly do you mean? Do you mean the hunters crying about not doing as much DPS as the RK's? The Guarding not doing as much DPS as they used too after the bleed nerf? Wardens not doing as much DPS after the blue line nerf?

You realize that this game doesnt need balance and its simply a bad narrative to suggest there is any need for "balance" at all. What we have evolved to is who can create the highest DPS, heals or damage taken. The game is far to watered down for any meaningful balance its simply degrees of the 3 variables mentioned. Its really not that complex, its made complex by community members who appear to be arguing from a historical perspective but havent run, or had any content that required anything more than DPS in years.

Bring back main stat caps, those days where main stats were capped at 10 times the level cap. And while they're at it, please nuclear-ize trait trees.

Now, to the OP's (your) point.

I don't want a pound of flesh. Honestly, the raid can wait. Fix the performance issues. If they take steps towards doing that, the raid(s) will take care of itself.

[swamphobbit]

I agree. I hope you understand that, if an instance script allows a dps race (and it should not) then the script must be fixed and not the players.

Assuming you understand that if this tank is able to solo those instances, it will be by players that are an exception to the rule. But hey, let suppose that even the worst tank in the game can do it... Would it be with the same efficiency and speed as a normal group? -Of course not... then why you insist comparing apples to oranges.


If this "tank" (or any class) is able to do it, why you care? I mean, this hurts your feelings or something? Otherwise, explain your reasoning.
----------

I don't think I'm going out on a limb here by saying that even an OP tank is not going to solo Dome of Stars or Silent Street. However.com, when the level cap was 95, I did solo Halls of Night T2C on my Warden. It took a long time. It was cool to say I did it (although this is the first time I've mentioned it publicly), but it is something I really don't want to repeat. It took a loooooong time and the driving reason for me to attempt it was personal curiousity and I was tired of the deed being open under my Angmar tab. I hate open deeds

[Laerien]

1. If implying that my feelings are somehow "hurt" is your way of asking politely (your first reply), we have different ideas of what is polite. Talk about condescending...
2. I'm not quite sure how wanting the classes and content to be more balanced has anything to do with selfishness or "elitism". But as you've been reaching in just about every reply...I can't say I'm surprised.
3. Name one other MMO where a tank can walk into a level cap dungeon designed for 6 or more players (on level) and solo the entire instance. I'm genuinely curious. Because in the other MMOs I've played, it's not possible (FFXIV, STO, Rift, etc.)

There should be a drastic difference between what a tank or any other class can accomplish with landscape mobs compared to what they can accomplish in content that was specifically designed for on-level group content.
Otherwise, what is the point of a developer(s) taking the time and resources to design group content and all the rewards that go with it if a single class can do it?

I did not implied anything I asked how affects you that someone can solo group content. After your first answer, your explanation is quite clear:

"But just to be clear, if a single class can solo content that is supposed to be designed for group content then there is a flaw with the actual content and/or the classes themselves. With LOTRO, I'd argue it is a little of both. There really is no further explanation needed. The fact that it needed to be said speaks volumes about the current player base (you) and explains the current state of the game."

Soloing group content in LotRO is not something new and it has not been exclusive of the warden class. There are plenty of examples of WoW raids solo with 5-10 levels of difference.

Obviously the developers are designing content to incentivate grouping; no, it is not just "a single class can do it", some players under certain conditions. But still, it does not affect you; nor the game. Your "request for balance" is not justified under these arguments.

I don't think I'm going out on a limb here by saying that even an OP tank is not going to solo Dome of Stars or Silent Street. However.com, when the level cap was 95, I did solo Halls of Night T2C on my Warden. It took a long time. It was cool to say I did it (although this is the first time I've mentioned it publicly), but it is something I really don't want to repeat. It took a loooooong time and the driving reason for me to attempt it was personal curiousity and I was tired of the deed being open under my Angmar tab. I hate open deeds

Of course, it is not something common or viable. However, I keep reading complains like soloing group content is a walk in the park for everyone.
--------------------
Instead of preventing 1-X classes soloing group content, I'd like to see the devs giving more tools to every class to be able solo more, not less. They can adjust tiers to make group content attractive too; not "forbid" -with excuses like "balance"- content to the "non-worthy" players (in the eyes of some).

[Aineas.]

I don't think I'm going out on a limb here by saying that even an OP tank is not going to solo Dome of Stars or Silent Street. However.com, when the level cap was 95, I did solo Halls of Night T2C on my Warden. It took a long time. It was cool to say I did it (although this is the first time I've mentioned it publicly), but it is something I really don't want to repeat. It took a loooooong time and the driving reason for me to attempt it was personal curiousity and I was tired of the deed being open under my Angmar tab. I hate open deeds

to be honest, mostly since RoR and beyond it has been a problem where npc's just don't hit hard enough and mechanics are messed up / not working / not working enough. Even before during ROI/Mirkwood you could see the first signs of the unbalance coming. Been repeated over and over but I guess it was that famous minority again. In addition wardens have been OP since day 1 with a few minor setbacks here and there and thats WAI.... it's a paid for class afterall, same goes for RK.

Instead of a raid I'd rather have em fix performance and work on a decent balance again, where 3-mans are 3-mans again and 6-mans the old fashioned 6-mans. This will make sure the whole discussion about dps is gone to bed too (well, mostly :P) like for example guard. With that you restore the trinity-system. Part of the cry for dps from classes like guards is also because everything is just so easy that if you take only dps you will still complete.... then why not only take dps to speed things up because we got that wonderful rng beast hammering down on us. Am I against progression? not at all... but not all changes are for the best and should be learned from (warsteed, epic battles...). So ye, if the new raid will be there and we all lag from here to there and back again... whats the content worth? it's entertainment... so if I get annoyed by lag/performance then yes, I swap games... I'm guessing im not the only one. Besides, why bother with raids now??? The raid-croud has moved on and is lost. They won't come back to an old game, an incidental raid-expansion with "we will never have raids again" in the back of their heads along with performance issues. I know current devs are trying hard, however I feel priority should be different, then again.... better performance won't bring in the cash ;-)

[Denhith]

There are plenty of examples of WoW raids solo with 5-10 levels of difference...

Your "request for balance" is not justified under these arguments....

Who said anything about doing raids solo with 5-10 levels of difference? I never argued that, we've been going back and forth about doing on level group content, solo.
So, in a nutshell, you couldn't back up your claims in regards to "many MMOs" so you come up a totally irrelevant example with WoW.
And you say that I'm not "justified" in my argument? Classic.

[Thorgrum]

Very good discussion folks, I am on the road but did spend a good 90 seconds reading the replies thus far brilliant would be an understatement for the discourse to this point. The notable exception being the jagoff but we have all come to expect that the only value he can add to a thread is his remarkable stupidity and failed attempts to troll the decent players of lotro (like yours truly).

I will be back to my regular schedule soon and have taken the time to create another opportunity for you to share your thoughts on immersion and 18.2 (check "new posts).

Take care and have a wonderful couple of days.

P.S. Give Orph 105 aud armor.