Raid Progression - Throne of the Dread Terror

[HebnesO]

Using exploits or attempts of faking screenshots will result in a permanent removal of your kinship name from this list!

When is this going to be enforced ?

https://youtu.be/RJ7gmWSWVdg?t=40

Cough, cough.

[XbammyX]

When is this going to be enforced ?

https://youtu.be/RJ7gmWSWVdg?t=40

Cough, cough.

Unlikely that it will. I'm not too sure standing on the edge of the rock like that is an exploit, but there's atleast 1 kin who did exploit (and admitted it) for one of the bosses yet is still up there.

[Schaijian]

Kinship: Nightfalls
Server: Gwaihir

Set-Akaji, Ku-Nerpag and Arpong-Dokh T2C

[Rishnakh]

I just want to thank Pinion for the raid. I ve never expect it to be honest . All the more i enjoyed to have finally a challanging raidcontent again with passably proper loot . The only negative thíng in my opinion is that the nerf of the unbroken one and especially of Gothmog was to early.

Hope that you will create more of them in near future.

[GoodGuySmaug]

Hello everyone!

I am recieving a lot of PMs lately and I apologize for not responding to everyone individually. I really did not want to discuss anything related to exploiting or removing kinships from this list publicly, but since there seem to be many different opinions on certain kinships, a clear and public communication may be the best solution.

First of all, I would like to explain my personal understanding of what counts as "severe exploit" and what doesn't:
In my opinion, there is a thin line and a lot of gray area between making clever use of unintended mechanics and a real exploit.

Let me give you some examples of what I consider "making clever use of probably unintended mechanics" and I think there is no reason to blame anyone for doing it:

• Using your cooldowns (for example Captain's "To Arms") pre combat and and using them again after they resetted when starting a bossfight.
• Switching your LIs or Armour in-combat. Note that switching armour is not possible any more but was commonly done pre HD expansion.
• Using old clickable armour or jewellary to gain some buffs pre-combat and then switch back to some items with better stats (e.g. Rift armour with 25% shadow damage avoidance).
• Interrupting skill animation with immediate skills to accelerate your skill rotation (if everything is done manually without the use of third party software).
• Re-summoning your Loremaster's pet to have no cooldown on their skills.
• ...

Then there are some "borderline exploits" which are clearly unintended but they are widely used and give you a comparably small boost. I feel switching trait trees pre-combat falls into this category. And while I am not happy to see this happening, I still don't think it justifies permanently removing a kinship from this list.

And then there are "heavy exploits" such as:

• Client hacks.
• Use of third party software messing with your skills.
• Using Inspired Greatness in raid instances.
• Stat exploits such as the Warsteed bug from some time ago.
• Exploiting enemy mobs so that they can't attack you any more. For example via heal aggro or Beorning taunts from outside the boss room.
• Using terrain exploits / glitch jumps to reach positions where you shouldn't be.
• Basically everything that allows your group to avoid the main indented mechanics of a fight, making the fight significantly easier.
• ...

If someone finds evidence that a certain kinship used "heavy exploits" to get a kill then I will certainly act accordingly.




I am recieving a lot of PMs regarding two things:

First, in Portal's Gothmog T2C kill video, we can see that there are 5 Minstrel Anthems active and some people suspect them of using an exploit. I personally don't play a Minstrel but I know that there should be no more than 3 Anthems active at the same time. Switching trait trees pre combat allow you to get a maximum of 4 Anthems but I do not know how 5+ Anthems are possible. I would like to see a statement of Portal explaining to us: 1.) how it is possible to get 5+ Anthems at the same time without exploiting and 2.) if it is a "borderline exploit", do you think it influenced your abilty to get the Gothmog T2C kill in a significant way? Why / why not?
I am also seeing your DPS classes are not affected by the "bird knockback", however I do not think it counts as severe exploit, so you do not need to comment on that.

Second, Eru Echor kinship made a public statement (both in English and in German) on their website: http://eruechor.ml/
So it seems like they got their first legit kill on Gothmog (without help from a GM) on 30 August which would mean they would be on rank 5 instead of rank 4. So I'm kind of torn between changing their kill date to 30 August and not changing it.
At the moment I am more on the side of not changing it because of two reasons: 1.) the fact that Turbine did not revoke their titles indicates that they did not "scam" a GM but simply had help to get past a bugged door. Also they did not skip any phases of the fight and the GM granted them the deed after monitoring them during the rest of the fight. 2.) I think it is VERY likely that they would have been able the beat it during the same lock cycle (they had raid locks after 20th August), so they would still be on rank 4 on the list nevertheless.



Please everyone keep civil and don't be hostile or disrespectful towards any other players or kinships!

[Siddharta]

Switching trait trees pre combat allow you to get a maximum of 4 Anthems but I do not know how 5+ Anthems are possible. I would like to see a statement of Portal explaining to us: 1.) how it is possible to get 5+ Anthems at the same time without exploiting

2 Anthems Yellow Spec (without Harmonius Anthems passive)
3 Anthems Yellow Spec (Harmonius Anthems)

As different tree-setup anthems stack you can do this once before the combat (for the first ~40s or so). But you can only keep 3 during the combat.

Hello everyone!
2.) if it is a "borderline exploit", do you think it influenced your abilty to get the Gothmog T2C kill in a significant way? Why / why not?

On our first Gothmog kill we had almost 2 minutes left (some people were not able to switch lines before the 3rd stage cause of in-combat bug, so we lost one more minute there to re-log). On our Original Challenger kill we lost ~2 minutes due to this bug.
If trait switching before the first stage(the only stage with 5 anthems) counts as an "borderline exploit" i don't think that we won more than 20 second there.

[IGolbezI]

Hello everyone!

And then there are "heavy exploits" such as:

• Client hacks.
• Use of third party software messing with your skills.
• Using Inspired Greatness in raid instances.
• Stat exploits such as the Warsteed bug from some time ago.
• Exploiting enemy mobs so that they can't attack you any more. For example via heal aggro or Beorning taunts from outside the boss room.
• Using terrain exploits / glitch jumps to reach positions where you shouldn't be.
• Basically everything that allows your group to avoid the main indented mechanics of a fight, making the fight significantly easier.
• ...

If someone finds evidence that a certain kinship used "heavy exploits" to get a kill then I will certainly act accordingly.

M'kay

I am also seeing your DPS classes are not affected by the "bird knockback"

Seems like you answered your own question but don't want to accept it. Portal not only found a spot as you describe, it makes the fight significantly easier.

I am recieving a lot of PMs regarding two things:

First, in Portal's Gothmog T2C kill video, we can see that there are 5 Minstrel Anthems active and some people suspect them of using an exploit. I personally don't play a Minstrel but I know that there should be no more than 3 Anthems active at the same time. Switching trait trees pre combat allow you to get a maximum of 4 Anthems but I do not know how 5+ Anthems are possible. I would like to see a statement of Portal explaining to us: 1.) how it is possible to get 5+ Anthems at the same time without exploiting and 2.) if it is a "borderline exploit", do you think it influenced your abilty to get the Gothmog T2C kill in a significant way? Why / why not?

Portal finished Gothmog with very little time left (<30 seconds). They killed the bird in 30s by exploiting the minstrel trait line (breaking it in secret ways enabling them to stack them past 3). Go and review the many videos of groups completing gothmog t2c. How long does the bird usually take? Most videos I've seen, the bird takes over a minute, more like 1 minute 30 seconds. If they had not exploited the anthems they would have run out of time and failed challenge.

In regards to the location the dps is standing, it is the very definition of finding a spot where you can avoid the mechanics of the fight. They essentially use 2 exploits to buy them enough time to complete a timed fight.

Second, Eru Echor kinship made a public statement (both in English and in German) on their website: http://eruechor.ml/
So it seems like they got their first legit kill on Gothmog (without help from a GM) on 30 August which would mean they would be on rank 5 instead of rank 4. So I'm kind of torn between changing their kill date to 30 August and not changing it.
At the moment I am more on the side of not changing it because of two reasons: 1.) the fact that Turbine did not revoke their titles indicates that they did not "scam" a GM but simply had help to get past a bugged door. Also they did not skip any phases of the fight and the GM granted them the deed after monitoring them during the rest of the fight. 2.) I think it is VERY likely that they would have been able the beat it during the same lock cycle (they had raid locks after 20th August), so they would still be on rank 4 on the list nevertheless.



Please everyone keep civil and don't be hostile or disrespectful towards any other players or kinships!

So did the GM make this statement or did the group of people who tried to pass off their GM granted title say this? Oh right, the group said this. The GMs wont admit they made a mistake and that they were wrong to give them the title. The most you will get out of the GMs is a statement calling it 'messy' and resetting the title that they never should have given out in the first place.

Change the date to August 30th. Think they could have done it doesn't mean they deserve anything. Lots of people here could have gotten fights sooner if xyz happened. If Eru Echor had killed Gothmog t2c prior to the 20th, then they deserve to have the 20th as the date they completed the full clear. However, they killed gothmog for the first time on the 30th. The 30th is the actual date they completed the full clear.


Quit trying to be a nice guy. Post the standings as they should be, decided by the rules you listed or don't post them at all.

[IGolbezI]

2 Anthems Yellow Spec (without Harmonius Anthems passive)
3 Anthems Yellow Spec (Harmonius Anthems)

As different tree-setup anthems stack you can do this once before the combat (for the first ~40s or so). But you can only keep 3 during the combat.

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.... and the minstrel in the group isn't even traited yellow. Why don't you explain for all our good citizens how you exploit the trait tree to allow for this. Fun fact: You can stack 13 anthems before they start to expire if you have enough trait trees unlocked (and enough time before the fight).

On our first Gothmog kill we had almost 2 minutes left (some people were not able to switch lines before the 3rd stage cause of in-combat bug, so we lost one more minute there to re-log)
If trait switching before the first stage(the only stage with 5 anthems) counts as an "borderline exploit" i don't think that we won more than 20 second there.

Now that we see how you speed up your performance by exploiting, I would not trust you to not exploit at any given time. Post a video of a fight you complete without stacking the Anthem of War.

[Siddharta]

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.... and the minstrel in the group isn't even traited yellow. Why don't you explain for all our good citizens how you exploit the trait tree to allow for this. Fun fact: You can stack 13 anthems before they start to expire if you have enough trait trees unlocked (and enough time before the fight).

Seems like you know more than me.
As far is i know you can stack 6 anthems max with tree-switching before the combat for the first 40s or so.
I don't know what are you trying to prove as i confirmed that we used tree-switching before the fight.

[IGolbezI]

Seems like you know more than me.
As far is i know you can stack 6 anthems max with tree-switching before the combat for the first 40s or so.
I don't know what are you trying to prove as i confirmed that we used tree-switching before the fight.

Next time BR is up, I'll stack the max anthems and take SS and document it for a /bug report. If you trait anthem duration and you have the legacies on your weapons, anthems last for 1m 5s with a cd of 5s. You can stack 13 of them if you have enough trait trees unlocked with mithril coins. Because I believe the specific way you replicate the exploit to be very broken, I wont give any more details publically. The intended way for the anthem stacking is to max at 3 and nothing more. You specifically have to break that mechanic to get around the max of 3.

You say it only lasts for 40s, you are mistaken. That may be in your case because you don't have all the legacies and traits. If turbine intended you to have all that +mastery and +damage, they would not have limited the anthems to 3. Back several updates ago, there were many players banned for using these anthems in pvp. I highly doubt that turbine agrees that you should be using them in PvE.

[Beltharas]

2 Anthems Yellow Spec (without Harmonius Anthems passive)
3 Anthems Yellow Spec (Harmonius Anthems)

As different tree-setup anthems stack you can do this once before the combat (for the first ~40s or so). But you can only keep 3 during the combat.
.

Clever use of skills. Not intended, but not an exploit IMO

[Naranor]

Does best playing exploith?
No.
Does Anthem of War exploith?
No.
May be if you stay where you was port and wings drop you back exploith?
No.
Do forum trolls funny?
Yes.

[Phindecano]

Next time BR is up, I'll stack the max anthems and take SS and document it for a /bug report. If you trait anthem duration and you have the legacies on your weapons, anthems last for 1m 5s with a cd of 5s. You can stack 13 of them if you have enough trait trees unlocked with mithril coins. Because I believe the specific way you replicate the exploit to be very broken, I wont give any more details publically. The intended way for the anthem stacking is to max at 3 and nothing more. You specifically have to break that mechanic to get around the max of 3.

Good luck with convincing Turbine that mechanics they consciously introduced years ago are exploits

[dwarfThar]

Next time BR is up, I'll stack the max anthems and take SS and document it for a /bug report. If you trait anthem duration and you have the legacies on your weapons, anthems last for 1m 5s with a cd of 5s. You can stack 13 of them if you have enough trait trees unlocked with mithril coins. Because I believe the specific way you replicate the exploit to be very broken, I wont give any more details publically. The intended way for the anthem stacking is to max at 3 and nothing more. You specifically have to break that mechanic to get around the max of 3.

You clearly don't understand how the stacking works. 3-times-stackable anthems stack with 2-times-stackable ones, stack with the by itself non-stackable regular blue/red ones. So no matter how many trait trees you unlock, the most anthems you can stack is 6.

You say it only lasts for 40s, you are mistaken. That may be in your case because you don't have all the legacies and traits. If turbine intended you to have all that +mastery and +damage, they would not have limited the anthems to 3. Back several updates ago, there were many players banned for using these anthems in pvp. I highly doubt that turbine agrees that you should be using them in PvE.

I assume he is talking effective time you make use of that many stacked anthems. You need some time to get them all up and running before you enter combat.

[Topkeklmao]

First, in Portal's Gothmog T2C kill video, we can see that there are 5 Minstrel Anthems active and some people suspect them of using an exploit. I personally don't play a Minstrel but I know that there should be no more than 3 Anthems active at the same time. Switching trait trees pre combat allow you to get a maximum of 4 Anthems but I do not know how 5+ Anthems are possible. I would like to see a statement of Portal explaining to us: 1.) how it is possible to get 5+ Anthems at the same time without exploiting and 2.) if it is a "borderline exploit", do you think it influenced your abilty to get the Gothmog T2C kill in a significant way? Why / why not?

They obviously used the anthem exploit and they were too dumb to cut that part out of the video.

[Khaurin]

Second, Eru Echor kinship made a public statement (both in English and in German) on their website: http://eruechor.ml/
So it seems like they got their first legit kill on Gothmog (without help from a GM) on 30 August which would mean they would be on rank 5 instead of rank 4. So I'm kind of torn between changing their kill date to 30 August and not changing it.
At the moment I am more on the side of not changing it because of two reasons: 1.) the fact that Turbine did not revoke their titles indicates that they did not "scam" a GM but simply had help to get past a bugged door. Also they did not skip any phases of the fight and the GM granted them the deed after monitoring them during the rest of the fight. 2.) I think it is VERY likely that they would have been able the beat it during the same lock cycle (they had raid locks after 20th August), so they would still be on rank 4 on the list nevertheless.

Bugs affect every raid group and who's to say another group might not have gotten a full clear earlier if a GM had been amicable to their support request (my group had an issue and the GM told us they couldn't do anything, setting us back a full lock cycle on 4th boss).

If the first legit Gothmog kill from Eru Echor puts them in 5th place, then they should be in 5th place. No malice against their kinship, but simply assuming they would have gotten it without help is disrespectful to other kinships that also might have gotten it, but didn't receive GM assistance.

[GoodGuySmaug]

No malice against their kinship, but simply assuming they would have gotten it without help is disrespectful to other kinships that also might have gotten it, but didn't receive GM assistance.

That's actually a valid point. I might reconsider my decision.

[1Asy1]

[*] Using terrain exploits / glitch jumps to reach positions where you shouldn't be.[*] Basically everything that allows your group to avoid the main indented mechanics of a fight, making the fight significantly easier.[*] ...

What is your opinion regarding the start of the Portal video then?

[Thorebane]

What is your opinion regarding the start of the Portal video then?

I'm interested to hear this aswell.

Obviously if you ask them to upload a video now it's past the time they originally said they had done it and have done it plenty since.

There's also a lot of people commenting on the video about not showing the start because there WAS at the time of raid a big exploit in the first bit.... but *shrugs*

[Joedangod]

I'd imagine you'd need to put this "anthem exploit" in the same category as RK's popping concession and rebuttal before entering combat. In which case the vast majority of kins appear to do this right before engaging Rakothas so 80% of the names up there would likely need to be removed.

[GoodGuySmaug]

What is your opinion regarding the start of the Portal video then?

You are referring to the knockback aren't you?

1.) It's a knockback. Can a knockback be avoided if standing with your back to a wall? Yes. Is standing with your back to a wall (even if it's an invisible wall) exploiting? No. And even if it only works in this specific "magic spot", it's not like they did some jumps or glitches to reach a position where they shouldn't be. After they were ported, they made a few steps back to find a position which they thought is most suitable for them.

2.) It may be unintented but I do not consider it a severe exploit as it does not significantly lower the fight's overall difficulty. As I already explained, there is often a thin line between making use of unintented mechanics and real exploiting. Everyone who already beat Gothmog T2C will probably agree that it is actually one of the easier bosses in Throne and if everything goes smoothly the fight can easily be done in less than 18 minutes. As you can see later in their video, they lost ~1.5 minutes because some of their players had to relog before the Carn Dum phase in order to change trait lines. Being infight throughout the whole fight is obviously not intented either, so in the end they still would have been fast enough.

3.) And this is my most important argument: I never asked for video proof on Gothmog and their video is not showing their first kill but their "Original Challenger" run one week later. They did not post this video to claim a kill and the ranking on the first page does not include the Challenger title. There is nothing suspicious in the screenshot of their first kill. The fact that they posted a video alone means that they do not intent to hide anything. If I decided to remove Portal from this list because I do not agree with something I saw in one of their videos which was clearly neither showing their first kill nor was being used to claim a kill, I would need remove all other kinships which have no videos at all as well. Can we assume that they avoided the knockback in their first Gothmog kill as well? Maybe yes, but that's simply not how jurisdiction works.


I am really only trying to be as objective as possible. Feel free everyone to explain why you agree or disagree with me.

[Topkeklmao]

You are referring to the knockback aren't you?

1.) It's a knockback. Can a knockback be avoided if standing with your back to a wall? Yes. Is standing with your back to a wall (even if it's an invisible wall) exploiting? No. And even if it only works in this specific "magic spot", it's not like they did some jumps or glitches to reach a position where they shouldn't be. After they were ported, they made a few steps back to find a position which they thought is most suitable for them.

2.) It may be unintented but I do not consider it a severe exploit as it does not significantly lower the fight's overall difficulty. As I already explained, there is often a thin line between making use of unintented mechanics and real exploiting. Everyone who already beat Gothmog T2C will probably agree that it is actually one of the easier bosses in Throne and if everything goes smoothly the fight can easily be done in less than 18 minutes. As you can see later in their video, they lost ~1.5 minutes because some of their players had to relog before the Carn Dum phase in order to change trait lines. Being infight throughout the whole fight is obviously not intented either, so in the end they still would have been fast enough.

3.) And this is my most important argument: I never asked for video proof on Gothmog and their video is not showing their first kill but their "Original Challenger" run one week later. They did not post this video to claim a kill and the ranking on the first page does not include the Challenger title. There is nothing suspicious in the screenshot of their first kill. The fact that they posted a video alone means that they do not intent to hide anything. If I decided to remove Portal from this list because I do not agree with something I saw in one of their videos which was clearly neither showing their first kill nor was being used to claim a kill, I would need remove all other kinships which have no videos at all as well. Can we assume that they avoided the knockback in their first Gothmog kill as well? Maybe yes, but that's simply not how jurisdiction works.


I am really only trying to be as objective as possible. Feel free everyone to explain why you agree or disagree with me.

Pointless thread

[TheKoromir]

I am really only trying to be as objective as possible. Feel free everyone to explain why you agree or disagree with me.

All this disagreement will be like in last two posts, trying to offend you and your views. That's kinda hilarious

[DisplTru]

MI6 is still soooo butthurt that they are only 2nd place. LOL.
You guys are pathetic and hilarious at the same time. I'm really enjoying it!

[H3llsJ4nitor]

MI6 is still soooo butthurt that they are only 2nd place. LOL.
You guys are pathetic and hilarious at the same time. I'm really enjoying it!

Would you like fries with that salt?