U19.1 - Endgame Raid Jewellery will be obsolete

[Pavlosh]

We fundamentally disagree with the philosophy that only T2 raiders should be allowed to get access to the best loot. It will often be the case that this is so, but to make some kind of permanent rule on it is something we simply will never do. We like motivating raiders to get gear, and our current offerings do so, even if in one or two very specific cases the numbers are slightly better in a non-raid-acquired item than a raid item as post-raid updates are released. Ultimately, if we were seeing a drop in the number of people running Throne of the Dread Terror, that might be a data point we'd take into consideration, but since the actual numbers are showing that more individual people are completing the raid on T2 difficulty more frequently since we released the flora system, the numbers don't support some of the arguments in this thread.

Well said, there is plenty of ways to get gear in game as there should be, the majority of raid gear will stay Best in Slot for a good while anyway.

[Gilean-EU]

We fundamentally disagree with the philosophy that only T2 raiders should be allowed to get access to the best loot. It will often be the case that this is so, but to make some kind of permanent rule on it is something we simply will never do. We like motivating raiders to get gear, and our current offerings do so, even if in one or two very specific cases the numbers are slightly better in a non-raid-acquired item than a raid item as post-raid updates are released. Ultimately, if we were seeing a drop in the number of people running Throne of the Dread Terror, that might be a data point we'd take into consideration, but since the actual numbers are showing that more individual people are completing the raid on T2 difficulty more frequently since we released the flora system, the numbers don't support some of the arguments in this thread.

THANK YOU for this statement! Many vocal (raiders) believe that itshould be like this, and I was going to worry that Turbine is startingto listen them, but it's good to know that you officially value (andreward) all playstyles

[Montezuma's]

We fundamentally disagree with the philosophy that only T2 raiders should be allowed to get access to the best loot.

I fully support this fundamental thing.
To add one more argument:
Not all classes are equally fit for T2 Throne due to inbalances. You all know it very good when you see World chat requests for specific classes for T2 Throne party.

[Siddharta]

even if in one or two very specific cases the numbers are slightly better in a non-raid-acquired item than a raid item as post-raid updates are released

Why these "one or two very specific cases" are jewelry and why it is slightly better and not similar or slightly lower?

[Joedangod]

Why these "one or two very specific cases" are jewelry and why it is slightly better and not similar or slightly lower?

I don't think it even counts as one or two very specific cases, it's almost half of the BiS gear.

[Siddharta]

I don't think it even counts as one or two very specific cases, it's almost half of the BiS gear.

Yeah i agree here.

[Arnenna]

We fundamentally disagree with the philosophy that only T2 raiders should be allowed to get access to the best loot. It will often be the case that this is so, but to make some kind of permanent rule on it is something we simply will never do. We like motivating raiders to get gear, and our current offerings do so, even if in one or two very specific cases the numbers are slightly better in a non-raid-acquired item than a raid item as post-raid updates are released. Ultimately, if we were seeing a drop in the number of people running Throne of the Dread Terror, that might be a data point we'd take into consideration, but since the actual numbers are showing that more individual people are completing the raid on T2 difficulty more frequently since we released the flora system, the numbers don't support some of the arguments in this thread.

Thanks for the clarification. I think the best items should be in raid, but that's not my call. What is Turbine's standpoint on bypassing actual participation of the raid but still being able to purchase the raid gear for gold please?

[Cordovan]

Thanks for the clarification. I think the best items should be in raid, but that's not my call. What is Turbine's standpoint on bypassing actual participation of the raid but still being able to purchase the raid gear for gold please?

At the moment, it isn't prohibited, but we don't particularly like it, either. We'll have to figure out whether/when we'd want to do something about it, should we end up going in that direction.

[Arnenna]

At the moment, it isn't prohibited, but we don't particularly like it, either. We'll have to figure out whether/when we'd want to do something about it, should we end up going in that direction.

Thanks again for that clarification. Another one that I don't agree with, you might as well have put it at the in game vendors, as the result is the same, but again, not my call.

[Pavlosh]

At the moment, it isn't prohibited, but we don't particularly like it, either. We'll have to figure out whether/when we'd want to do something about it, should we end up going in that direction.

Ah nice, make any plans for U19.2 if possible when we will be farming for those tasty looking bracelets and anything else you guys drop in the raid! Joking aside, Locking down the toons on completion would be far preferable to the current situation imo, especially given the loot is account bound.

At least force opportunist kins to carry someone through the runs for gold!

[Arnenna]

So, there we go guys. Flower bling, is ok with Turbine. Selling raid loot is ok with Turbine. Both solved, whether we agree with them or not.

Have a good night.

[Joedangod]

So, there we go guys. Flower bling, is ok with Turbine. Selling raid loot is ok with Turbine. Both solved, whether we agree with them or not.

Not sure it's solved, he said:

We like motivating raiders to get gear, and our current offerings do so, even if in one or two very specific cases the numbers are slightly better in a non-raid-acquired item than a raid item as post-raid updates are released.

Flower jewellery is a direct contradiction of this as it replaces 7 items, not just one or two.

[siipperi]

We fundamentally disagree with the philosophy that only T2 raiders should be allowed to get access to the best loot. It will often be the case that this is so, but to make some kind of permanent rule on it is something we simply will never do. We like motivating raiders to get gear, and our current offerings do so, even if in one or two very specific cases the numbers are slightly better in a non-raid-acquired item than a raid item as post-raid updates are released. Ultimately, if we were seeing a drop in the number of people running Throne of the Dread Terror, that might be a data point we'd take into consideration, but since the actual numbers are showing that more individual people are completing the raid on T2 difficulty more frequently since we released the flora system, the numbers don't support some of the arguments in this thread.

Numbers to support that people do raid more now is probably mostly down to the fact that video/text guides are widely available (so easier time on bosses) also the fact that its not summer anymore. If turbine is comparing current raid numbers to release completions or even one-two month after it has nothing to do to flower jewellery making it more accessible but actual guides and simply the fact that people are more inside during winter/late fall evenings than during late summer. One cant just make up that kind of arguments and try say its solely down to the flower jewellery, when its more than likely down to facts that always is in instancing, time of year and guides. Everyone knows this is huge thing who plays the pvp. Everyone plays during winter months and absolutely dead during summers.

[Catburg]

Unfortunately this statement does not constitute evidence. You would have to give some tangible form of evidence to dispute that this is not an isolated case, after all, the base assumption should be to assume that people are innocent of this and that they must be proven guilty (admittedly stretching the definition of guilty since this loot thing isn't against the rules).

Its like mice and fleas though, you might only see one but there's more there. Once a mechanism is known its use will spread and especially as this isn't against the rules with no risk to the purveyors then why wouldn't it?

[Beastnas]

We fundamentally disagree with the philosophy that only T2 raiders should be allowed to get access to the best loot. It will often be the case that this is so, but to make some kind of permanent rule on it is something we simply will never do. We like motivating raiders to get gear, and our current offerings do so, even if in one or two very specific cases the numbers are slightly better in a non-raid-acquired item than a raid item as post-raid updates are released. Ultimately, if we were seeing a drop in the number of people running Throne of the Dread Terror, that might be a data point we'd take into consideration, but since the actual numbers are showing that more individual people are completing the raid on T2 difficulty more frequently since we released the flora system, the numbers don't support some of the arguments in this thread.

Thanks for the reply. I agree that raid loot shouldn't automatically mean best, especially for only a handful of cases as mentioned. The problem was that 7 pieces of raid jewelry are no longer relevant, accounting for nearly half of the loot from the T2 and T2C chests. Again, I am fine with landscape or other sources of loot being better, but complementing the raid loot, not fully replacing the entire set.

[wispsong]

Numbers to support that people do raid more now is probably mostly down to the fact that video/text guides are widely available (so easier time on bosses) also the fact that its not summer anymore. If turbine is comparing current raid numbers to release completions or even one-two month after it has nothing to do to flower jewellery making it more accessible but actual guides and simply the fact that people are more inside during winter/late fall evenings than during late summer. One cant just make up that kind of arguments and try say its solely down to the flower jewellery, when its more than likely down to facts that always is in instancing, time of year and guides. Everyone knows this is huge thing who plays the pvp. Everyone plays during winter months and absolutely dead during summers.

You see it your way, the devs see it another way. I would assume that guides are out for more then a month now. Maybe more players finished T1 and now are attempting T2. Maybe some players rather have better gear then the drops just due to the fact that they are not as good as those who already finished T2. I like to have better gear for hard instances just to avoid wipes and make the content faster and easier.

The only proof they and you have is the fact that more players run the content. If I were you, I would consider that great because that means that they probably make more raids and that the pool of raiders increases. Isn't that worth a few pieces of BIS gear outside the raid?

Thank you Cordovan, for the answer.

[Arnenna]

Not sure it's solved, he said:



Flower jewellery is a direct contradiction of this as it replaces 7 items, not just one or two.

It's done, give it up.

I don't agree with the other decision but - it's done and the official word has been spoken. Let it go.

[Joedangod]

I don't agree with the other decision but - it's done and the official word has been spoken. Let it go.

The official words do not match the official actions. Are you pleased that they say one thing yet do another? I doubt it.

[Arnenna]

Numbers to support that people do raid more now is probably mostly down to the fact that video/text guides are widely available (so easier time on bosses) also the fact that its not summer anymore. If turbine is comparing current raid numbers to release completions or even one-two month after it has nothing to do to flower jewellery making it more accessible but actual guides and simply the fact that people are more inside during winter/late fall evenings than during late summer. One cant just make up that kind of arguments and try say its solely down to the flower jewellery, when its more than likely down to facts that always is in instancing, time of year and guides. Everyone knows this is huge thing who plays the pvp. Everyone plays during winter months and absolutely dead during summers.

I play all year round, and so do all the people I play with, and so do the raiders that started completing the raid four months ago when it was released, which was summertime. Turbine have officially given you your answer. I have had mine too. That's the end of it.

[Arnenna]

The official words do not match the official actions. Are you pleased that they say one thing yet do another? I doubt it.

I'm not particularly pleased about either answer, but, it is what it is. They've spoken, and whether I agree with them or not is irelevant. Let it go, it's done.

[Joedangod]

I'm not particularly pleased about either answer, but, it is what it is. They've spoken, and whether I agree with them or not is irelevant. Let it go, it's done.

Feedback is a two-way street, it does not simply end after one party gives their side. We should hold Turbine accountable to what they have said here, it does not match their actions. "One or two specific" pieces does not equal the entire set of jewellery. If they don't clarify what their stance is then we might have more events like this crop up.

[siipperi]

You see it your way, the devs see it another way. I would assume that guides are out for more then a month now. Maybe more players finished T1 and now are attempting T2. Maybe some players rather have better gear then the drops just due to the fact that they are not as good as those who already finished T2. I like to have better gear for hard instances just to avoid wipes and make the content faster and easier.

The only proof they and you have is the fact that more players run the content. If I were you, I would consider that great because that means that they probably make more raids and that the pool of raiders increases. Isn't that worth a few pieces of BIS gear outside the raid?

Thank you Cordovan, for the answer.

I dont need assume anything when I know it. Top raiding kins kept their strategies and videos hidden until multiple kins were succesfully completed the certain boss so release of any kind of t2 guides took till september or so, after this vid video material available and summer season ending we have see a lot more activity on completions. And most kins who still trying to beat the raid use these strategies written/shown for increased success rate. Raw Gear stat increase itself doesnt help help that much (since its most than likely less than 2% increased overall raid dps, thats all), set bonuses do and reference of what is happening helps the most. It will usually take for average good t2 group about 1.5-2 months to complete this kind of the raid anyway. And one of harder bosses can easily take several weeks for a bit worse group.

Also lastly any informed person will know you cant draw conclusion after 8 days of data collection and compare it to 4 month data, ffs there have been just one lock reset, so saying completion ratio has increased is just total random selection of tiny amount of time which is not accurate at all. So as I wrote earlier, its time of the year and guides that make 99% of the reason if there is increased rate this week.

So yeah its his job to speak nicely so nobody gets pissed off but as I said calling that after a week conclusion of stat increase (that is minimal) is simply not very believable when we take account typical MMO factors like I wrote above. And I just wanted to point out these facts so devs get perspective into what they potentially thinking of these changes.

[Arnenna]

Feedback is a two-way street, it does not simply end after one party gives their side. We should hold Turbine accountable to what they have said here, it does not match their actions. "One or two specific" pieces does not equal the entire set of jewellery. If they don't clarify what their stance is then we might have more events like this crop up.

So sue them lol. I think one or two pieces is because they are only counting it as single pieces, when in fact, three of them double up. It's still not "half" or even "almost half" the raid gear though, so Turbine are not the only people who need to get their numbers in a row in here.

It doesn't match up that they would permit people to have raid gear, for NOT doing the raid when they don't particularly like the activity either. But hey, I'm not the boss, and I don't work for Turbine and my opinion is nothing more than my opinion. I held Turbine accountable, and called them on it, and they answered. I can disagree all I like from here, it doesn't matter, because they have given their stance on it, and that is the be all and end all of it. Same applies to the other argument. Turbine win, because they are in charge here. If I felt very strongly opposed about their answer, I could stop playing or supporting the game as another form of protest, but for me, neither of these are worth that. One thing I learned through life, when the boss speaks, and you'd like to stay in the job, that's the end of it. You take it as it is, or find another one.

But you carry on the good fight if you want to, that's up to you. My words to you to let it go were just advice, but you do not need to follow it if you do not wish to.

For me, its done.

[Arnenna]

I dont need assume anything when I know it. Top raiding kins kept their strategies and videos hidden until multiple kins were succesfully completed the certain boss so release of any kind of t2 guides took till september or so, after this vid video material available and summer season ending we have see a lot more activity on completions. And most kins who still trying to beat the raid use these strategies written/shown for increased success rate. Raw Gear stat increase itself doesnt help help that much (since its most than likely less than 2% increased overall raid dps, thats all), set bonuses do and reference of what is happening helps the most. It will usually take for average good t2 group about 1.5-2 months to complete this kind of the raid anyway. And one of harder bosses can easily take several weeks for a bit worse group.

Also lastly any informed person will know you cant draw conclusion after 8 days of data collection and compare it to 4 month data, ffs there have been just one lock reset, so saying completion ratio has increased is just total random selection of tiny amount of time which is not accurate at all. So as I wrote earlier, its time of the year and guides that make 99% of the reason if there is increased rate this week.

So yeah its his job to speak nicely so nobody gets pissed off but as I said calling that after a week conclusion of stat increase (that is minimal) is simply not very believable when we take account typical MMO factors like I wrote above. And I just wanted to point out these facts so devs get perspective into what they potentially thinking of these changes.

Cordovan didn't say that more people are completing the raid because they have flora jewels. He said the numbers are up since flora jewels update. He made no stipulation as to why. In easier to understand terms, he is saying that raid completion is NOT down, since introduction of flora system, so the argument that it will stop people raiding is not supported as presented in this thread.

"but since the actual numbers are showing that more individual people are completing the raid on T2 difficulty more frequently since we released the flora system, the numbers don't support some of the arguments in this thread."

[siipperi]

Cordovan didn't say that more people are completing the raid because they have flora jewels. He said the numbers are up since flora jewels update. He made no stipulation as to why.

"but since the actual numbers are showing that more individual people are completing the raid on T2 difficulty more frequently since we released the flora system, the numbers don't support some of the arguments in this thread."

And I stand correct. One cant make conclusion of trend out of random selection of one dot as refering to one cycle of locks.