U19.1 - Endgame Raid Jewellery will be obsolete

[infinitewhimsy]

A euphemism to say that he is lying.


My post was not directed to anyone in particular. However, lets see:



If a bit of my perfect reading comprehension in my own language translates to english, I think Cordovan said that more individuals (not the same dudes)completed T2 after the flower jewelry was introduced. Moreover, he added, "more frequently", which means the raid is being completed more and more (not more times -since 2 locks- by the same players).

Whatever, who or why is irrelevant, the point is the numbers have not decreased but increased. That is proof (unless you don't believe Cordovan's word)enough that the raid is not being affected by this flower jewelry, at least not in a negative way (I do not think the new jewelry may have an impact in a positive way either).

Of course one could argue something like: "if the flower jewelry was not better, them maybe the numbers would be even better" but that is counterfactual fallacy.

Finally, the implied doom story about the raiders not doing the raid because this flower jewelry is simply not true. For the recods, within time the numbers will decrease, another obvious statement. You are welcome.

It's the literal job of a blue name to present Lotro in a favorable light. Anyone who knows their Lotro forum history knows this means the free use of ambiguous and misleading language when necessary. I won't pretend to know the numbers involved, but even if more people can now do the raid, I expect fewer groups will do it regularly. It's a simple question of longevity, as in whatever increase in the pool of those who meet the gear criteria to raid, the reason to do so is fundamentally diminished. The stats/accomplishment rewarded are both dampened by the existence of flower gear.

[Joedangod]

If a bit of my perfect reading comprehension in my own language translates to english, I think Cordovan said that more individuals (not the same dudes)completed T2 after the flower jewelry was introduced. Moreover, he added, "more frequently", which means the raid is being completed more and more (not more times -since 2 locks- by the same players).

Whatever, who or why is irrelevant, the point is the numbers have not decreased but increased. That is proof (unless you don't believe Cordovan's word)enough that the raid is not being affected by this flower jewelry, at least not in a negative way (I do not think the new jewelry may have an impact in a positive way either).

The reason we don't trust in the comments on this matter is the fact that it is simply too soon to tell what effect the flower jewellery will have here. There is not enough data to give an accurate conclusion on the effect that flower jewellery is having on raiding.

If anything, flower jewellery might boost short term interest in the raid (since more people have appropriate gear) but reduce long term interest (since 50% of raid gear is now worse than what people had before entering the raid). You'd need at least a months worth of data and perhaps even more to actually see what effect the flower jewellery will have here. Cordovan commented on a weeks worth of data and basically said "Flower jewellery didn't immediately stop people running the raid" and you are using that to justify 50% of the raid gear now being obsolete.

Concerns over longevity of the raid here are very much still valid.

[Catburg]

Sort of. I think it's fairly easy to see what trends work and what trends don't when looking at the history of the game. It's also easy to tell that sometimes the developers aren't making decisions from a place that necessarily is good for the game. While I appreciate what they've been doing for the game lately, and have found that there's been massive improvement in both their overall balancing, itemization, and response to player feedback, it still sometimes feels like they make changes via a blindfolded darts competition. The recent Guardian red-line changes are an example of that. My sentiment on that, of course, is not me hating the game or the development team. It's the opposite. I recognize their efforts to make the game that I've stuck around for almost ten years to play better, and any criticism I may have towards their decisions comes from a place of wanting this game to be the best and most successful that it can be.

While this change is indeed radical, I'm not entirely certain it's in response to anything in particular. It may simply be a miscalculation, or a change for changes sake. We all know that Turbine sometimes has a history of fixing things that ain't broke, as the saying goes . The fact that requires, as you said, no rep, quest pack, or grind, makes it a complete outlier in terms of what we know to be business as usual in the scheme of in-game itemization. Unless we're looking at a level cap increase within the next few months, nullifying both the raid as well as all landscape content, it simply doesn't make much sense, regardless of any under-the-radar statistics that Turbine is privy to. I also think that they may not have as much of a "key" as you think they do, and to a certain extent they're trying to figure out what works just as much as any of the rest of us are.

In that case, it's our job as players to try to give them the most unbiased, well-thought advice that we can, with the good of the game in mind. I think everyone who's posting here shares my love of this game, and I hope everyone can keep in mind that it's not about any one group of players or another, but rather what we can do to keep this game active and successful.

One thing that does come to mind is that an unplayed alt isn't generating store income and it brings a lot more alts back into play again. In my case it might prompt some purchases of crystals of remembrance which I happened to notice WERE NOT in the Black Friday sale.

[Gandalphor]

If a bit of my perfect reading comprehension in my own language translates to english, I think Cordovan said that more individuals (not the same dudes)completed T2 after the flower jewelry was introduced. Moreover, he added, "more frequently", which means the raid is being completed more and more (not more times -since 2 locks- by the same players).

Whatever, who or why is irrelevant, the point is the numbers have not decreased but increased. That is proof (unless you don't believe Cordovan's word) enough that the raid is not being affected by this flower jewelry, at least not in a negative way (I do not think the new jewelry may have an impact in a positive way either).

	FI jewelry	Raid jewelry	Flower jewelry
main stat	1404	1278	1350
morale	4998	3330	3534
physical mitigation	5058	0	0
tactical mitigation	5058	0	0
slots	12	18	18

In it's base FI jewelry is superior to the raid or flower. It is also not hard to get. Raid and flower jewelry can be a little bit better than the FI one, which comes down to maybe one essence slot. Maybe even less with the new FI, because last time I did these calculations was for the old FI.

So, whatever Cordovan said, I can not accept that this change was crucial to beating a raid boss. I would rather believe that people got more practice and formed better groups than 500 morale meaning win or fail. That said, even though it may not mean win or fail, raider have always went for the best gear that will give them the extra edge and make their experience better and maybe even a little bit smoother and easier. 6 pieces behind flower picking and 7 pieces in the raid. That is half of the loot that those people, who are alegedlly finishing the raid "due to new jewelry", have no use for.

Also, notice how nobody ever complained about FI jewelry even though there were people who could barter for it the day it came out. It still required something to be run, the fact that it was old barter coins wasn't an issue. There would have been an issue if that was now better than the raid. Just as it is an issue that a jewelry with no required skill now is better than raid jewelry. Given that Cordovan only unofficially announced bracelets from the raid, it is to be expected that there will be better pieces from picking flowers again, getting even further away from the raid jewelry.

How hard would it have been to at least put the barter behind the kindred standing and maybe even some deed? There was nothing there. Just appear, pick a few flowers and it's yours. Maybe raiders would have swallowed this a bit easier if there was something like this in place, which isn't unheard of, every hub had. It is now harder to get certain cosmetics than the jewelry.

[Arnenna]

	FI jewelry	Raid jewelry	Flower jewelry
main stat	1404	1278	1350
morale	4998	3330	3534
physical mitigation	5058	0	0
tactical mitigation	5058	0	0
slots	12	18	18

In it's base FI jewelry is superior to the raid or flower. It is also not hard to get. Raid and flower jewelry can be a little bit better than the FI one, which comes down to maybe one essence slot. Maybe even less with the new FI, because last time I did these calculations was for the old FI.

So, whatever Cordovan said, I can not accept that this change was crucial to beating a raid boss. I would rather believe that people got more practice and formed better groups than 500 morale meaning win or fail. That said, even though it may not mean win or fail, raider have always went for the best gear that will give them the extra edge and make their experience better and maybe even a little bit smoother and easier. 6 pieces behind flower picking and 7 pieces in the raid. That is half of the loot that those people, who are alegedlly finishing the raid "due to new jewelry", have no use for.

Also, notice how nobody ever complained about FI jewelry even though there were people who could barter for it the day it came out. It still required something to be run, the fact that it was old barter coins wasn't an issue. There would have been an issue if that was now better than the raid. Just as it is an issue that a jewelry with no required skill now is better than raid jewelry. Given that Cordovan only unofficially announced bracelets from the raid, it is to be expected that there will be better pieces from picking flowers again, getting even further away from the raid jewelry.

How hard would it have been to at least put the barter behind the kindred standing and maybe even some deed? There was nothing there. Just appear, pick a few flowers and it's yours. Maybe raiders would have swallowed this a bit easier if there was something like this in place, which isn't unheard of, every hub had. It is now harder to get certain cosmetics than the jewelry.

Yes, FI jewelry, given its much cheaper cost, is by far the most efficient.
I agree, with the introduction of flower jewelry, there is no longer any desire to collect jewelry from the raid. There are however, other reasons to run it.
I stood against the use of Morgul Crests to obtain recipes for brand new 105 essences when the update that brought FI's and level 105 arrived. It was old currency, and IMO, it was completely ridiculous that anyone that had run Osgiliath instances for the previous months, stockpiling, could walk up to the barterer in MT and buy all their recipes in a few minutes, immediately that the update went live. No work involved, just roll on up and buy them, using old currency that they obtained for 6 months of running level 100 content. We could not barter for FI jewerly directly at that point. They were not available for barter until a further update. They dropped in FI's and were also bound to character when they first arrived. Yes, we people that liked to group up and run Osgiliath - got it real easy at that point. As in, do nothing, easy. I don't remember many faces from in this thread, making a fuss about it alongside me when the shoe was on the other foot. In fact, I distinctly remember a few faces in here, defending it outright, as ok, it was reducing grind.
I think its safe to assume that when the bracelets hit, that will either be a roundabout or a swing. In all my time here, I've never seen both arrive at the same time.
Many casuals would also have swallowed this a lot easier if there was something to do, other than pick flowers. You are not alone. Most of the players I know, do not enjoy flower picking, regardless of their playstyle.

[Catburg]

Perhaps there is a significant portion of people who although enjoying a certain number of raids don't want to have to do a raid to get everything. We can never know what is in people's minds despite what they say it can all be a bit "Trump and Brexit" ie being embarrassed to admit publicly what they really think.

[siipperi]

I agree, with the introduction of flower jewelry, there is no longer any desire to collect jewelry from the raid.

Thank you. Which means for some classes that all relevant worth getting loot is obsolete.

[Gyl_UK]

My view, not in response to anyone, but based on my experience of the game.

The belief by some that the best gear should be from raids is OK as long as you can get into one. If you are fortunate enough to be in a long established raiding kin then that's great. But there are players who are fully skilled, have worked to be as geared up as much as they can be, would like to get the T2 raiding gear but are not in that position or are trying to help build up a raiding kin after these years of no new raids. Raiding kins tend to be "closed shops", aren't recruiting and don't run pugs. I can understand why to some degree though it is a shame that there isn't some incentive built into the game to encourage (raiding) kins to help others. But do I strugge with the view by some that raiding is the epitome of the game when it is a relatively exclusive group of players that raid. Recently I was told that I couldn't join a pug T2 raid group...because I didn't have any raid armour (and I have done the raid at T1 many times but the armour has never dropped). Yes, I am peeved.

I don't particularly like flower picking as a way of getting gear, and certainly not as a way of getting so much of the best gear, but I also think it is reasonable that some of the best gear can be gained by means other than raiding and by means that does not rely on RNG.

[Catburg]

How about taking all best gear out of raids and available by a variety of means and having best essences raid dependant? People need far more essences than they do gear items which would keep raids running more often and for longer. The base stats of an item are just that base, it is the other things you slot in them that make the critical difference.

[siipperi]

How about taking all best gear out of raids and available by a variety of means and having best essences raid dependant? People need far more essences than they do gear items which would keep raids running more often and for longer. The base stats of an item are just that base, it is the other things you slot in them that make the critical difference.

Nope, because these set bonuses aren't supposed to be for solo play.

[wispsong]

Nope, because these set bonuses aren't supposed to be for solo play.

What? +10% Smouldering Wratth sounds pretty sweet even for solo play. I would agree with you if it was bonuses that benefit the fellowship.

[Catburg]

Nope, because these set bonuses aren't supposed to be for solo play.

Why does it matter if solo players have set bonuses or not? The raid essences will always make the gear of raiders superior anyway. At worst some bonuses might be no use to a soloist whatsoever but I can't think of a case where they'd be actually detrimental to them. Some people fellow with a few others on occasion so those bonuses may come into play then and it also has those bonuses ready in case they decide to dip their toe into bigger groups, just the essences would/can be upgraded.

[onor]

The simple solution would be to make the raid and only the raid jewls able to be upgraded at the flower barterer just like the armor is. The FI Item lvl234 jewls are better than the raid jewls anyways, yet no-one had the were-with-all to complain for 36 pages about that. It's time for this thread to die.

[siipperi]

Why does it matter if solo players have set bonuses or not? The raid essences will always make the gear of raiders superior anyway. At worst some bonuses might be no use to a soloist whatsoever but I can't think of a case where they'd be actually detrimental to them. Some people fellow with a few others on occasion so those bonuses may come into play then and it also has those bonuses ready in case they decide to dip their toe into bigger groups, just the essences would/can be upgraded.

Get FI or pelennor intance gear then, those have set bonuses. Majority of raid set bonuses already exist on different gears so feel free to get those and gear like we did.´

The FI Item lvl234 jewls are better than the raid jewls anyways, yet no-one had the were-with-all to complain for 36 pages about that. It's time for this thread to die.

Actually this is false assumption. In simplest case support, tanks and healers benefit automatically more from 3 slot jewellery than 2 slot. Secondly featured instance jewellery spends too much resources on the mitigations to make them efficient, so medium and light armor classes look into hitting caps even without scrolls. And for champs it's also way better to use 3 slot one for obvious reasons.

[onor]

I still have mit essences on my hunter, lm and RK even with all FI jewls so maybe i am doing something wrong. My virtues are all main stat/resistance(for hunter) oriented, but I still get some mits from them as well. 3tac and 1 phys mit essence for my hunter; 2phys mit and 1 tac mit on RK; 1phys mit and 1 tac mit on LM. Only the RK has 2 flower jewls. Regardless, you can cap your mits at 19k,21k,23somethingK and be within scroll range of being T2 overcapped using at least some of the FI jewls.

Just ask turbine to make the raid jewls upgradable to be better than anything else in game and we can put the subject to rest.

[siipperi]

Just ask turbine to make the raid jewls upgradable to be better than anything else in game and we can put the subject to rest.

30 something pages of that...

[Catburg]

Get FI or pelennor intance gear then, those have set bonuses. Majority of raid set bonuses already exist on different gears so feel free to get those and gear like we did.´



Actually this is false assumption. In simplest case support, tanks and healers benefit automatically more from 3 slot jewellery than 2 slot. Secondly featured instance jewellery spends too much resources on the mitigations to make them efficient, so medium and light armor classes look into hitting caps even without scrolls. And for champs it's also way better to use 3 slot one for obvious reasons.

Probably didn't make it clear, my suggestion was for the future not ref current gear which I can't see changing any time soon. Best to draw a line under it I think people have more than stated their case. What transpires in the future will reflect the broader player base and commercial needs like it or lump it.

[Gilean-EU]

How about taking all best gear out of raids and available by a variety of means and having best essences raid dependant? People need far more essences than they do gear items which would keep raids running more often and for longer. The base stats of an item are just that base, it is the other things you slot in them that make the critical difference.

That is true and I support this suggestion. All (flower) armour and jewelry pieces are worth nothing if you don't slot essences in them. I have hoarded loads of essences since Dol Amroth, in case I need them at some point - and now when I am thinking about upgrading all my 10 characters to flower gear (eventually! It does take time, maybe I cannot endure doing that but few pieces / character), I don't have a single lvl 105 golden essences to use, and even very few lvl 100 golden essences. But then again, that's not an issue! Luckily the difference between T7 and T8 essences is not very big, and I can build quite decent stats even with lvl 100 purple essences (and throwing some better essences there as well). Naturally for soloing I usually build balanced characters (defence as well as offence).

But those who run instances and raids could get those best essences from raid, and that would make their character quite a bit stronger than someone with purple/teal essences. Also there are enough essence slots to keep people running that raid much longer, compared to getting just gear pieces (at least if the drop rate was the same).

As for soloing and set bonuses: Some of the set bonuses in Dol Amroth class armour sets are so nice (from soloing point of view as well) that I am still probably keeping those pieces as long as possible... I remember it wasn't easy to get rid of Hytbold set bonuses either...

[Arnenna]

That is true and I support this suggestion. All (flower) armour and jewelry pieces are worth nothing if you don't slot essences in them. I have hoarded loads of essences since Dol Amroth, in case I need them at some point - and now when I am thinking about upgrading all my 10 characters to flower gear (eventually! It does take time, maybe I cannot endure doing that but few pieces / character), I don't have a single lvl 105 golden essences to use, and even very few lvl 100 golden essences. But then again, that's not an issue! Luckily the difference between T7 and T8 essences is not very big, and I can build quite decent stats even with lvl 100 purple essences (and throwing some better essences there as well). Naturally for soloing I usually build balanced characters (defence as well as offence).

But those who run instances and raids could get those best essences from raid, and that would make their character quite a bit stronger than someone with purple/teal essences. Also there are enough essence slots to keep people running that raid much longer, compared to getting just gear pieces (at least if the drop rate was the same).

As for soloing and set bonuses: Some of the set bonuses in Dol Amroth class armour sets are so nice (from soloing point of view as well) that I am still probably keeping those pieces as long as possible... I remember it wasn't easy to get rid of Hytbold set bonuses either...

Some will never accept it. Not "show-off" enough.

[RANA01340]

That is true and I support this suggestion. All (flower) armour and jewelry pieces are worth nothing if you don't slot essences in them. I have hoarded loads of essences since Dol Amroth, in case I need them at some point - and now when I am thinking about upgrading all my 10 characters to flower gear (eventually! It does take time, maybe I cannot endure doing that but few pieces / character), I don't have a single lvl 105 golden essences to use, and even very few lvl 100 golden essences. But then again, that's not an issue! Luckily the difference between T7 and T8 essences is not very big, and I can build quite decent stats even with lvl 100 purple essences (and throwing some better essences there as well). Naturally for soloing I usually build balanced characters (defence as well as offence).

But those who run instances and raids could get those best essences from raid, and that would make their character quite a bit stronger than someone with purple/teal essences. Also there are enough essence slots to keep people running that raid much longer, compared to getting just gear pieces (at least if the drop rate was the same).

As for soloing and set bonuses: Some of the set bonuses in Dol Amroth class armour sets are so nice (from soloing point of view as well) that I am still probably keeping those pieces as long as possible... I remember it wasn't easy to get rid of Hytbold set bonuses either...

Some will never accept it. Not "show-off" enough.

I think the reason why this wouldn't work out too well isn't from the raiders perspective, but rather from a non-raider's perspective. Really, essences are the real stat-contribution in any item. Giving raiders access to better essences would make it so that literally every single item slot would become "best in slot" via raiding. It would completely tip the balance of gear towards raiding, with no possible way to throw solo players a bone without invalidating that bonus and swinging it the other way. For instance, any stronger essences given to solo players would immediately nullify ALL of the essences given to raiders, because they would focus on getting those stronger essences. It would make for situations much worse than the one we're attempting to deal with right now.

In my opinion, Turbine does do the right thing by making individual slotted items "best in slot" across various playstyles. They've just made a mess of their raid itemization as of this update. It's not the whole system that's broken, it's just a part of it that's come undone.

[RANA01340]

A euphemism to say that he is lying.


If a bit of my perfect reading comprehension in my own language translates to english, I think Cordovan said that more individuals (not the same dudes)completed T2 after the flower jewelry was introduced. Moreover, he added, "more frequently", which means the raid is being completed more and more (not more times -since 2 locks- by the same players).

Whatever, who or why is irrelevant, the point is the numbers have not decreased but increased. That is proof (unless you don't believe Cordovan's word)enough that the raid is not being affected by this flower jewelry, at least not in a negative way (I do not think the new jewelry may have an impact in a positive way either).

Of course one could argue something like: "if the flower jewelry was not better, them maybe the numbers would be even better" but that is counterfactual fallacy.

Finally, the implied doom story about the raiders not doing the raid because this flower jewelry is simply not true. For the recods, within time the numbers will decrease, another obvious statement. You are welcome.

Firstly, it's not that we're saying he's lying. We're simply stating that there may be more things that Turbine hasn't thought out fully. In the post below, Gandalphor shows the stat difference between the three jewelry types. Those stat differences are extremely small, in reality, and for most classes don't make a definitive difference. In fact, they require more actual effort to put together, because for the purposes of raiding, the flower jewelry needs 6 more supreme essences slotted into it. For the most part, I don't think this jewelry really helps get new players into the raid, simply because of the extra essence-cost associated with it, which makes it more time-consuming to get than its IF counterpart, as well as the relatively low stat gain not making that much of a gearing difference. In summary, I agree with you that the new jewelry does not have a positive impact on allowing people to raid.

I also agree with you that, currently, it is not stopping players from running the raid. However, Turbine has a tendency towards shortsightedness. We saw it with the way trait trees were implemented, and how they are currently suffering from bloated point totals, allowing players to become increasingly more powerful by specializing in multiple lines. Currently, the flower jewelry is not doing anything to hurt the raid. However, in the future, it is quite certain that the decreased raid-loot will hurt the attendance of raiding Kinships. The people who are posting on this thread are looking ahead to that point.

Thus, we're not calling Cardovan a liar. I'm sure the uptick in players running the raid that he's reporting is real. However, we're questioning why that uptick is happening because it's reason for existing has everything to do with whether it will last. Or, if after many of these Kinships just starting sink their teeth into the raid, lack of loot will cause them to grow bored of it at a quicker rate than they would if the flower jewelry hadn't been implemented. It is also "obvious," as you put it, that the interest in Throne will eventually wane. What we're discussing is if Turbine has unwittingly hastened the time when Throne is obsolete.

	FI jewelry	Raid jewelry	Flower jewelry
main stat	1404	1278	1350
morale	4998	3330	3534
physical mitigation	5058	0	0
tactical mitigation	5058	0	0
slots	12	18	18

In it's base FI jewelry is superior to the raid or flower. It is also not hard to get. Raid and flower jewelry can be a little bit better than the FI one, which comes down to maybe one essence slot. Maybe even less with the new FI, because last time I did these calculations was for the old FI.

So, whatever Cordovan said, I can not accept that this change was crucial to beating a raid boss. I would rather believe that people got more practice and formed better groups than 500 morale meaning win or fail. That said, even though it may not mean win or fail, raider have always went for the best gear that will give them the extra edge and make their experience better and maybe even a little bit smoother and easier. 6 pieces behind flower picking and 7 pieces in the raid. That is half of the loot that those people, who are alegedlly finishing the raid "due to new jewelry", have no use for.

[Arnenna]

Thus, we're not calling Cardovan a liar. I'm sure the uptick in players running the raid that he's reporting is real. However, we're questioning why that uptick is happening because it's reason for existing has everything to do with whether it will last. Or, if after many of these Kinships just starting sink their teeth into the raid, lack of loot will cause them to grow bored of it at a quicker rate than they would if the flower jewelry hadn't been implemented. It is also "obvious," as you put it, that the interest in Throne will eventually wane. What we're discussing is if Turbine has unwittingly hastened the time when Throne is obsolete.

I get what you're saying, and it would apply if Cordovan had suggested the number of people doing the raid was up, due to the flora jewelry.

That's not what he said though. Take another look at it.

"Ultimately, if we were seeing a drop in the number of people running Throne of the Dread Terror, that might be a data point we'd take into consideration, but since the actual numbers are showing that more individual people are completing the raid on T2 difficulty more frequently since we released the flora system, the numbers don't support some of the arguments in this thread."

Point on point . . . he said . . ..

They have not seen a drop in numbers since the release of the flora system (not sspecifically jewelry, the whole flora system).
If they had, it would be open for consideration.
They are seeing an increase in numbers of players doing the raid since the flora system was released (again, the whole system, not just the jewels).
He says the increase is "since" the flora system (the whole thing), not "because" of it. So he is not omitting other reasons.

So, some people are taking that comment out of context, and thinking Cordovan is saying flower bling increased raid numbers, when that's not actually what he said at all. The final part of his comment "the numbers don't support some of the arguments in this thread", reinforces what his comment means - and that's - raiding numbers are not down (which are the arguments presented in this thread, that he is disputing).

I tend to think that all the new gear on landscape - will never make a solo player do a raid. They don't raid, because it's not their play-style. This gear now makes it faster for players that would maybe grind out Pelennor instances for armour, and Osg bling to become raid ready, and hence they will start stepping into the raid sooner than they would have if Pelennor/Osg was their only avenue to prepare for the raid. Pelennor is still my avenue, as I want the set bonuses, so clearly not all will take the quicker route. I'll probably stick with upgraded FI bling on my alts, and go for flora bling on my main, rather than grind more osgiliath (if I can stomach picking up that many flowers of course). The end result overall though, with extra avenues to get raid ready, IMO, is more people in the raid, not less. True - its is now slightly less desirable for those that have already done the raid ready grind and completed the raid, but I'd hazard a guess that there are high numbers of players that haven't done all that yet. Now those numbers are starting to show up in the raid, because they can get raid ready, without having to run all the old content in order to do so. It makes perfect sense to me, that the flora system (all of it) could be increasing the number of players that are now actually doing the raid, rather than running old content getting ready to do it. There are of course, other reasons as well.

Edit - Add

Before anyone steps in to say it's wrecking progression, and asking if it's fair that players can pick flowers to obtain armour that is similar to what people already obtained by grinding out Pelennor, or bling that is slightly better than raid bling, all I'll say on that is, each to their own on how they view that.

Does it bother me that people can buy a shield of the hammerhand that I paid for with a pre-order expac? Nope. Would it bother me if people could barter for the steed of Michel Delving in the Shire, after I had to spend ages earning it during a limited event? Nope. Would it bother me if they put the hobby horse in the Yule barter list after I spent 4 years playing with RNG to get one? Nope. It doesn't bother me that players can buy 95 levels in the store when I spend months levelling either, just to make a point about progression rather than fluff. It never bothers me, how another player obtains what they obtain. It doesn't affect me, especially if I've already earned it in some former way. It doesn't affect me at all just because there are alternative routes to a destination. I can always choose which way I want to go. E.g. I still choose Pelennor.

[Joedangod]

So, some people are taking that comment out of context, and thinking Cordovan is saying flower bling increased raid numbers, when that's not actually what he said at all. The final part of his comment "the numbers don't support some of the arguments in this thread", reinforces what his comment means - and that's - raiding numbers are not down (which are the arguments presented in this thread, that he is disputing).

He didn't dispute anything. Nobody made the argument that "Flower jewellery reduced the number of people running the raid", they stated that "Flower jewellery reduced the incentives to running the raid and thus the raid will be less appealing in the long run". The disputes people are having with Cordovan's comment on the numbers is the fact that there wasn't any point checking them yet since the post-flowers sample of raid completions is way too small to actually glean anything useful from it, they would likely need months to see any actual effect. Cordovan's numbers have also been held up by those in favour of the flower jewellery as proof that they were a fine addition when in reality it is too soon to tell.

TL;DR: The original comments Cordovan made on the numbers were irrelevant and did not add anything to this discussion.

[Joedangod]

Another thread linked this screenshot which should probably be included here:



It appears that whilst the raid is getting new bracelets there may also be new rings added to the flower barters that far exceed the raid rings. This is starting to get a bit ridiculous.

[Catburg]

Does it bother me that people can buy a shield of the hammerhand that I paid for with a pre-order expac? Nope. Would it bother me if people could barter for the steed of Michel Delving in the Shire, after I had to spend ages earning it during a limited event? Nope. Would it bother me if they put the hobby horse in the Yule barter list after I spent 4 years playing with RNG to get one? Nope. It doesn't bother me that players can buy 95 levels in the store when I spend months levelling either, just to make a point about progression rather than fluff. It never bothers me, how another player obtains what they obtain. It doesn't affect me, especially if I've already earned it in some former way. It doesn't affect me at all just because there are alternative routes to a destination. I can always choose which way I want to go. E.g. I still choose Pelennor.

Yes, I think some people worry too much about other folks. What about all those deeds I ground out before they nerfed the kill numbers and does it bother me that the virtues I spent hours working for can be bought in store? The days of availability being linked to effort and ability have long gone, enjoy one's sense of achievement at the time and move on.