Basic Stalker Question

[JediSam]

I have a rank 7 warg that has about 15 kills and a few kbs. He's mostly for pve and exploring but, I want to pvp more. My first concern about attacking freeps is wether I should stun/pounce them or not. I know some freeps have stun recovering skills like turn the tables and find footing. Even then it may be best to just keep stunning them, maybe not. Some classes like beornings, I know nothing about. Can someone give me a basic guide on which classes to stun or not to stun and a short reason why. ty.

[Spilo]

Don't pounce burglars, pounce everything else. This guide could be of use to you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fgrl2RIGgj8

[Leopoldio]

Don't pounce burglars, pounce everything else. This guide could be of use to you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fgrl2RIGgj8

Thats the worst lie ever. If you just started the fight with burg - first thing you do - is pounce. If you are in SHADOW stance, cuz claws and pounce cant be evaded (and i think some one more skill cant remember + swipe ? or scratch and snip). Stupid burg will instatly use TNG with heal, which will be wasted for nothing (for warg only that heal is important, who cares about evade). And guess what - you can stun him sttraight away again when u have it available. guaranteed win vs any burg, if you have good rotation and movement.

But true, dont stun/pounce burg if his morale has moved down, cuz then he'll use tng with heal, which you don't want. Also, in this case, creep whoever was fighting him, won't be able to hit him, unless tact class.

[Ethrildar]

What is Find Footing's heal now anyway, 4k? Has it ever scaled? As of today/tomorrow that'll be 0.75 Warg claws, or around 1 second of extra time on a fight, might as well just stun them repeatedly.

[Leopoldio]

What is Find Footing's heal now anyway, 4k? Has it ever scaled? As of today/tomorrow that'll be 0.75 Warg claws, or around 1 second of extra time on a fight, might as well just stun them repeatedly.

True.

[whyski]

Don't pounce burgs and don't attack Guards with bring-on-the-pain active. (both of these are explained in Spilo's guide)

[whyski]

What is Find Footing's heal now anyway, 4k? Has it ever scaled? As of today/tomorrow that'll be 0.75 Warg claws, or around 1 second of extra time on a fight, might as well just stun them repeatedly.

25% of max morale on the initial heal. The free TnG will give procs from evade essence for another 10-20%. FF can be reset with ready & able. That said, you might be right about being better off forcing them to burn CD's since claws/maul hit as hard as they do atm.

[Spilo]

What is Find Footing's heal now anyway, 4k? Has it ever scaled? As of today/tomorrow that'll be 0.75 Warg claws, or around 1 second of extra time on a fight, might as well just stun them repeatedly.

lol. It's 25% on Burglar, and unless you're crippling bite pre TnG, then having Crippling Bite be Evaded can make the fight go pretty poorly. The reset with Ready and Able means it's even worse. Also, almost all Burglars are going to have Well Practiced traited, so -60s cooldown on that. I certainly regularly pounce Burglars, but there's a relatively complex strategy behind it, some of which I detail in the video. It's easier to just say don't pounce a Burglar.

Also, Claws and Maul will not be hitting as hard anymore.

[Armdyl]

Don't pounce burgs and don't attack Guards with bring-on-the-pain active. (both of these are explained in Spilo's guide)

that's easier solo since you always have to turn the selection's 9 rows of buffs off almost always in a group or you risk becoming lotro's lag slave. I always hate not being able to see burg's tng, guard's heal and rk's armor of elements active.

[Cadibble]

Generally, if you're not comfortable fighting burgs, don't stun them. If a non-warg starts a fight with a burg, and you jump in to help, don't stun the burg unless you want to be mean...the heal from Find Footing will negate the non-warg's share of infamy and the evade buff will prevent the non-warg from doing additional damage.

When you are comfortable fighting burgs and there are no other freeps around, a good strat is to start with Sudden Pounce, so the burg will burn Find Footing and waste the heal. Then use your damage skills that bypass evade. As soon as stun immunity is gone from the burg, chain Disappear with Sudden Pounce...90% of the time this will stun the burg again even when his 50% evade buff is present. When both the evade buff and stun immunity is gone, hit the burg with Tendon Shred for a third stun. If possible, save one of the stuns for when the burg is low on health, because the burg can't HiPS away while stunned.

If the burg doesn't start the fight with Find Footing, using stuns during the fight may not be desirable.
Also note that stunning a burg at full health while other non-wargs are around isn't a scoldable offense either. In that situation, Find Footing is no different than Touch N Go, which the burg can use anytime he wants.

[Hurtful]

Generally, if you're not comfortable fighting burgs, don't stun them. If a non-warg starts a fight with a burg, and you jump in to help, don't stun the burg unless you want to be mean...the heal from Find Footing will negate the non-warg's share of infamy and the evade buff will prevent the non-warg from doing additional damage.

When you are comfortable fighting burgs and there are no other freeps around, a good strat is to start with Sudden Pounce, so the burg will burn Find Footing and waste the heal. Then use your damage skills that bypass evade. As soon as stun immunity is gone from the burg, chain Disappear with Sudden Pounce...90% of the time this will stun the burg again even when his 50% evade buff is present. When both the evade buff and stun immunity is gone, hit the burg with Tendon Shred for a third stun. If possible, save one of the stuns for when the burg is low on health, because the burg can't HiPS away while stunned.

If the burg doesn't start the fight with Find Footing, using stuns during the fight may not be desirable.
Also note that stunning a burg at full health while other non-wargs are around isn't a scoldable offense either. In that situation, Find Footing is no different than Touch N Go, which the burg can use anytime he wants.

Everyone talking about a wasted FF heal in this thread seems to assume the burg drops the FF instantly before any damage has landed. It's not hard to wait a tiny bit before mashing FF to make use of the tiny heal once some damage has landed and the FF option is still active.

[Armdyl]

Everyone talking about a wasted FF heal in this thread seems to assume the burg drops the FF instantly before any damage has landed. It's not hard to wait a tiny bit before mashing FF to make use of the tiny heal once some damage has landed and the FF option is still active.

we all know every one of you pop it like a panic button and won't fight without ready and able off cd so you can double hips while you run away.

[Ethrildar]

lol. It's 25% on Burglar, and unless you're crippling bite pre TnG, then having Crippling Bite be Evaded can make the fight go pretty poorly. The reset with Ready and Able means it's even worse. Also, almost all Burglars are going to have Well Practiced traited, so -60s cooldown on that. I certainly regularly pounce Burglars, but there's a relatively complex strategy behind it, some of which I detail in the video. It's easier to just say don't pounce a Burglar.

Also, Claws and Maul will not be hitting as hard anymore.

25%? Didn't know that, haven't actively played Burg in a fair while. Either way, the majority of Burgs run 20-30k morale equalling around 4-7k in heals, which is still less than 1 Bestial Claws hits, TNG really doesn't make that big a difference versus Wargs, whilst it does affect some skills you're still in a better position having done 10-15k damage in the opening stun while the Burg has healed 5k and is still unable to BPE your bread & butter skills.

EDIT: Adding to the above I feel I should mention that as someone else said (maybe you, Spilo?) if you're not comfortable jumping Burgs, don't stun them because TNG/FF will help them even if only a little, (the evade component, not the heal) and if you're fighting just on the brink of winning vs Burgs, it'll tip the balance and you'll lose.

Also lol at "Warg" and "complex" in the same post. You're kidding, right? The class is about as 2-dimensional and simple as they come, the only thing simpler is perhaps Defiler. The only thing (at all) that separates good Wargs from bad Wargs is positional, and that has nothing to do with the class itself (which has huge advantages in gaining positional when compared to other classes, in having a very potent IC run buff always up + sprint + multiple stuns + a slow that has a stupidly long duration).

Adding to the above, Wargs are still stupidly overpowered even after the "nerf", at 40k morale (and yep, same as before, 58% mits) I died yesterday to a semi-competent rank 9 warg in 8 seconds, in fairness thats 3 seconds longer than a few days ago so I actually got a few skills off, but still absolutely ridiculous, I've yet to 1v1 a really good Warg, I can't imagine it going well. Also spiders are still broken AF, took a 12k Virulent yesterday, 1v1 (aka no debuffs).

On the plus side, other classes such as BA's seem to be in quite a good place, haven't seen Reaver properly yet, but I'd guess the same is true of that.

[Spilo]

Also lol at "Warg" and "complex" in the same post. You're kidding, right? The class is about as 2-dimensional and simple as they come, the only thing simpler is perhaps Defiler. The only thing (at all) that separates good Wargs from bad Wargs is positional, and that has nothing to do with the class itself (which has huge advantages in gaining positional when compared to other classes, in having a very potent IC run buff always up + sprint + multiple stuns + a slow that has a stupidly long duration).

Adding to the above, Wargs are still stupidly overpowered even after the "nerf", at 40k morale (and yep, same as before, 58% mits) I died yesterday to a semi-competent rank 9 warg in 8 seconds, in fairness thats 3 seconds longer than a few days ago so I actually got a few skills off, but still absolutely ridiculous, I've yet to 1v1 a really good Warg, I can't imagine it going well. Also spiders are still broken AF, took a 12k Virulent yesterday, 1v1 (aka no debuffs).

On the plus side, other classes such as BA's seem to be in quite a good place, haven't seen Reaver properly yet, but I'd guess the same is true of that.

Warg is (next to Spider) the easiest class to do competent damage with. However, it has the second highest skill curve (second to reaver, imo) on all of Creepside. Min/maxing rotation is worth it and produces a noticeable difference. For someone who has played Warg for over 2 years, I would have lost interest if all that mattered was Bestial Claws and positional (but I whole-heartedly agree that Bestial's damage should be nerfed and given elsewhere).

Eh, I've done a fair amount of soloing, and whilst Wargs are in a great position, they're certainly not God-Mode. I'm available to do some fights later today if you want to test this theory out.

[Ethrildar]

Warg is (next to Spider) the easiest class to do competent damage with. However, it has the second highest skill curve (second to reaver, imo) on all of Creepside. Min/maxing rotation is worth it and produces a noticeable difference. For someone who has played Warg for over 2 years, I would have lost interest if all that mattered was Bestial Claws and positional (but I whole-heartedly agree that Bestial's damage should be nerfed and given elsewhere).

I think the problem I have with Warg is that the skill curve you mention is more of just a "read your skills and work out what's mandatory", things like Fleas, which are so over-potent against literally every class that you have to use them, most Wargs don't know this but it doesn't take much working out to see that it's clearly a must, along with several other skills, the complexity is simply working out where's the ideal time to use them and then returning to positional claws and ER (EG..) spam. Like every class there IS a skill curve, I think we'll just have to disagree on the extent of that.

Eh, I've done a fair amount of soloing, and whilst Wargs are in a great position, they're certainly not God-Mode. I'm available to do some fights later today if you want to test this theory out.

...even after the "nerf", at 40k morale (and yep, same as before, 58% mits) I died yesterday to a semi-competent rank 9 warg in 8 seconds...

Will have to do some 1v1's when I get some time, I've still yet to have many good fights with Wargs since the "fix". I've seen you around and shot some arrows at you the last couple of days though haha, no kills though

I don't think the class is "godmode" but it is still broken, I still die in 7-10 seconds to one competent Warg (giving me 1-3 seconds post-stun with which to react), no properly built Creep will die in that time-frame to any Freep, glass cannon Freep or not. At this stage I'm considering doing a Legoir and hitting up the 70k morale build because it's simply not fun dying to good Wargs without even a fight, or bad Wargs 2 or more vs 1.

I can see why from your perspective you're enjoying the class though currently, and feel that it's more balanced, Warg DPS wasn't lacking before (by any means) but it wasn't sufficient to kill Wardens and mediocre healers, which now it clearly is. Certainly a more fun solo Warg experience, I'm sure, just not reasonably balanced. To weigh this up, there isn't a single 6/10 Freep (burg, hunter, or anything) that is going to kill a ranked & geared* Creep in 5 seconds, and yet any 6/10 Warg can do this to any freep (outside of Healers), even now. Maybe it'll take 10 seconds instead of 5, but that's still unreasonable... you're talking the sort of DPS that insanely well raid-geared PRO Freeps can do if they go super glass cannon with 17k morale, but on 100k morale rank 8 Wargs. (Every Warg, any Warg...)


*Edit: By geared I mean correct corruptions & traits, obviously.

[SpicyMacHaggis]

I don't think the class is "godmode" but it is still broken, I still die in 7-10 seconds to one competent Warg (giving me 1-3 seconds post-stun with which to react), no properly built Creep will die in that time-frame to any Freep, glass cannon Freep or not. At this stage I'm considering doing a Legoir and hitting up the 70k morale build because it's simply not fun dying to good Wargs without even a fight, or bad Wargs 2 or more vs 1.

I can see why from your perspective you're enjoying the class though currently, and feel that it's more balanced, Warg DPS wasn't lacking before (by any means) but it wasn't sufficient to kill Wardens and mediocre healers, which now it clearly is. Certainly a more fun solo Warg experience, I'm sure, just not reasonably balanced. To weigh this up, there isn't a single 6/10 Freep (burg, hunter, or anything) that is going to kill a ranked & geared* Creep in 5 seconds, and yet any 6/10 Warg can do this to any freep (outside of Healers), even now. Maybe it'll take 10 seconds instead of 5, but that's still unreasonable... you're talking the sort of DPS that insanely well raid-geared PRO Freeps can do if they go super glass cannon with 17k morale, but on 100k morale rank 8 Wargs. (Every Warg, any Warg...)

Is this from hunter perspective?
While a good warg's dps is quite high i don't find it to be way over the top if you compare it to what freeps can put out. (A 100% crit chance skills on a 1 sec cd is something i don't agree with though).
If you brand the initial stun and use everthing in your arsenal fights vs good wargs can still be won if you're not unlucky with procs/crits/bpe.

Bad wargs should never be a problem even if there's 2 you can quite easilly outplay them by kiting if they're bad.

Average wargs won't kill any freep in 10 seconds if the freep is somewhat geared. Good wargs might be able to, but so can any halfdecent burg/hunter.

[siipperi]

Average wargs won't kill any freep in 10 seconds if the freep is somewhat geared. Good wargs might be able to, but so can any halfdecent burg/hunter.

So lets tune down dps on these broken classes so we can have competitive 30s+ fights instead of 10s RNG fights...

[Spilo]

I think the problem I have with Warg is that the skill curve you mention is more of just a "read your skills and work out what's mandatory", things like Fleas, which are so over-potent against literally every class that you have to use them, most Wargs don't know this but it doesn't take much working out to see that it's clearly a must, along with several other skills, the complexity is simply working out where's the ideal time to use them and then returning to positional claws and ER (EG..) spam. Like every class there IS a skill curve, I think we'll just have to disagree on the extent of that.





Will have to do some 1v1's when I get some time, I've still yet to have many good fights with Wargs since the "fix". I've seen you around and shot some arrows at you the last couple of days though haha, no kills though

I don't think the class is "godmode" but it is still broken, I still die in 7-10 seconds to one competent Warg (giving me 1-3 seconds post-stun with which to react), no properly built Creep will die in that time-frame to any Freep, glass cannon Freep or not. At this stage I'm considering doing a Legoir and hitting up the 70k morale build because it's simply not fun dying to good Wargs without even a fight, or bad Wargs 2 or more vs 1.

I can see why from your perspective you're enjoying the class though currently, and feel that it's more balanced, Warg DPS wasn't lacking before (by any means) but it wasn't sufficient to kill Wardens and mediocre healers, which now it clearly is. Certainly a more fun solo Warg experience, I'm sure, just not reasonably balanced. To weigh this up, there isn't a single 6/10 Freep (burg, hunter, or anything) that is going to kill a ranked & geared* Creep in 5 seconds, and yet any 6/10 Warg can do this to any freep (outside of Healers), even now. Maybe it'll take 10 seconds instead of 5, but that's still unreasonable... you're talking the sort of DPS that insanely well raid-geared PRO Freeps can do if they go super glass cannon with 17k morale, but on 100k morale rank 8 Wargs. (Every Warg, any Warg...)


*Edit: By geared I mean correct corruptions & traits, obviously.

Well, when I mean skill curve, I mean the actual damage rotation, not just throwing in debuffs. Keeping priority on skills like Piercing Claws, Swipe, Rend, SnS, Pounce, and Maul, and then adding in the debuffs management of crippling, puddle, fleas, etc. is pretty challenging, and it's rare that I have a fight where I make fewer than 2-3 rotation mistakes. The problem is those mistakes are hardly noticeable, as Bestial Claws plays such a significant part in the Warg rotation (benefiting from both a past direct buff and the crit magnitude buff). Readjusting warg damage would be as simple as nerfing Bestial, and buffing Rend/SnS- that would be a nerf for average/casual wargs, and make Good wargs work much harder for high DPS output.

I have enjoyed playing Warg recently. It's nice to actually only be in danger of losing 1v1 to someone who has devoted as much time to their class as I have, whereas before I had to work my tail off to beat average Champions, Burglars, Wardens, etc. Killing Bad healers is doable, average healers are still essentially unkillable barring bad luck with CoC and CC timing (RK healers are pretty much impossible to kill, even if they are bad).

I'll be available off and on this week depending on work and such, perhaps we'll get in some fights.

[Ethrildar]

Is this from hunter perspective?
While a good warg's dps is quite high i don't find it to be way over the top if you compare it to what freeps can put out. (A 100% crit chance skills on a 1 sec cd is something i don't agree with though).
If you brand the initial stun and use everthing in your arsenal fights vs good wargs can still be won if you're not unlucky with procs/crits/bpe.

Bad wargs should never be a problem even if there's 2 you can quite easilly outplay them by kiting if they're bad.

Average wargs won't kill any freep in 10 seconds if the freep is somewhat geared. Good wargs might be able to, but so can any halfdecent burg/hunter.

Yeah Hunter perspective.

Of course, but how often can you brand? The cooldown is ridiculous and protects you from only one stun. Brand is the quickest stun-cure there is and it's excellent, but it's use is limited. And cry of the Hunter is more of a self-nerf than a buff, stun pot is just slow.

Agreed, both sides can achieve very high numbers, but a Hunter to camo-gank someone requires some serious gear, a scrubby Warg with 6 crit and 6 mastery can do this with about 15minutes of class knowledge/reading tooltips and 3 buttons.

Yep, 2 bad wargs are easy, 1 good warg is very difficult/bordering on impossible if they stun & gun right.

I have enjoyed playing Warg recently. It's nice to actually only be in danger of losing 1v1 to someone who has devoted as much time to their class as I have, whereas before I had to work my tail off to beat average Champions, Burglars, Wardens, etc. Killing Bad healers is doable, average healers are still essentially unkillable barring bad luck with CoC and CC timing (RK healers are pretty much impossible to kill, even if they are bad).

I'll be available off and on this week depending on work and such, perhaps we'll get in some fights.

Agree with your entire post, that's primarily the issue I have with Warg the way it is at the moment, anyone can annihilate opposition at the same skill level, regardless of gear. #### wargs are destroying equally as #### freeps (of any class), good wargs are killing those freeps in split seconds. Someone who's spent zero time on the class can now do what those who are amazing at it can do, to the majority of the opposition.

[Intolerance]

I think the effects of Sprint should end when an offensive damage or debuff skill is used.

This would be my wish for any class that has a +Movement Speed skill.

They nerf hunters in this regard...of course, nothing new to see there....but it should apply to all classes across the board.

Otherwise...let all +Movement Speed effects stand through combat.

Fair's fair.

Additionally, for the stealth classes...when they Hips/Disappear...combat should be dropped for anyone they were engaged with.

-Althorr's2cents

[Ethrildar]

I think the effects of Sprint should end when an offensive damage or debuff skill is used.

This would be my wish for any class that has a +Movement Speed skill.

They nerf hunters in this regard...of course, nothing new to see there....but it should apply to all classes across the board.

Otherwise...let all +Movement Speed effects stand through combat.

Fair's fair.

Additionally, for the stealth classes...when they Hips/Disappear...combat should be dropped for anyone they were engaged with.

-Althorr's2cents

I think that Sprint ending on hit would just encourage running away even more. I very much believe it's CD should be doubled (from the traited version) as with HIPS, and I believe it's duration should be 10sec at 150% or 20 sec at 125%. To compensate, some form of damage buff that doesn't affect Claws.

I also think BC should be on a 4 second CD now, given how broken it is at the moment.

[siipperi]

I think that Sprint ending on hit would just encourage running away even more. I very much believe it's CD should be doubled (from the traited version) as with HIPS, and I believe it's duration should be 10sec at 150% or 20 sec at 125%. To compensate, some form of damage buff that doesn't affect Claws.

I also think BC should be on a 4 second CD now, given how broken it is at the moment.

Wargs should have sprint 300% out combat and 150% in combat as well.

[Spilo]

Simplest fix, which I suggest long ago, would be to reduce Sprint to 150% in-combat, 200% out of combat.

[Intolerance]

I think that Sprint ending on hit would just encourage running away even more. I very much believe it's CD should be doubled (from the traited version) as with HIPS, and I believe it's duration should be 10sec at 150% or 20 sec at 125%. To compensate, some form of damage buff that doesn't affect Claws.

I also think BC should be on a 4 second CD now, given how broken it is at the moment.

Probably so...but the alternative is that we have a dps class that can chain Immediate skills together...attacking offensively w/ a +200% run speed. With a pre-brand negating any cc...that's a concrete example of situational OP.

Wargs should have sprint 300% out combat and 150% in combat as well.

Simplest fix, which I suggest long ago, would be to reduce Sprint to 150% in-combat, 200% out of combat.

Responding to both of you...My hunt has a +Movement Speed skill also...but it drops in combat. Why should there be a disparity in the ability to move at a certain speed during combat? Clearly...any class/toon that can move faster than their opponent during active combat has a very distinct advantage. Why should any class get a default offensive advantage skill? Wargs already have March for OOC, yes?

IMHO...every class toon...creep and freep...should have a base Movement speed during combat...thus removing one more obstacle toward achieving some semblance of balance.

[Spilo]

Responding to both of you...My hunt has a +Movement Speed skill also...but it drops in combat. Why should there be a disparity in the ability to move at a certain speed during combat? Clearly...any class/toon that can move faster than their opponent during active combat has a very distinct advantage. Why should any class get a default offensive advantage skill? Wargs already have March for OOC, yes?

IMHO...every class toon...creep and freep...should have a base Movement speed during combat...thus removing one more obstacle toward achieving some semblance of balance.

Here's the problem with this. First off, every Melee Class on Freep/Creepside has a sprint equivalent, and removing one would just put the one at a severe disadvantage (I hate using that as an argument, but every Melee class has the equivalent of a slow-ignore). Secondly, and more importantly, it'd indirectly buff ranged slows and CC.