guardian bleeds u19.3 first impressions

[Fermongu]

After 10 mins of random instance fighting, my impressions are:

- bleeds don't dissapear (good)
- bleeds are critting (good)

- bleeds tier up slowly than before (new bug?)

- prey on the weak heals proc rate has been nerfed down the floor (no mention on patch notes) --> while I'm ok with nerfing the self heal, I think it's badly implemented, the hit is VERY BIG, no more big pulls, not even t1. I wonder if this is WAI or a new bug, but PotW heals should proc some more.


Even with bleeds critting now, I fail to see see any increase on ST DPS and just a slight increase on AoE DPS. Feels wrong. The big heal nerf should have been accompained with a big damage boost. Now we are worse than before update, with roughly same DPS but without the self heal. I wonder if SSG messed up more with radiate and Insult to Injury without telling, this feels just so wrong.

EDIT: critical hits with normal skills now only tier up bleed 1 position, should be 2 positions, one from red spec and another from heavy blows class trait (that's how it was before update). With bleeds skills (sweeping, thrust, brutal assault) they used to tier up bleeds 3 positions, now only 2.

[Gildintar]

Aoe dmg is much weaker than before .....

[Fermongu]

Since u18, every single time Turbine/SSG touch the guard, they break it even more. This is not about "rebalancing" a class line anymore, it's about plainly breaking it. I'm no programmer to pretend to know how hard it can be to fix red guard, but seeing the continual results from this "fixes" I would be ashamed if I were a dev. The saddest part is that red guards don't even needed this bleed thing fiasco before u18, they were mostly fine with (AoE) DPS, they just needed some reduction in healing and some ST DPS love.

It would be good to hear from SSG what they think about the job they are doing with the guard class. At this point, they should recognize their mistakes and listen to the comunity or they will "bleed" the guard comunity even more.

[commdorvis]

Since u18, every single time Turbine/SSG touch the guard, they break it even more.

It's become a farce.

[Joedangod]

- prey on the weak heals proc rate has been nerfed down the floor (no mention on patch notes) --> while I'm ok with nerfing the self heal, I think it's badly implemented, the hit is VERY BIG, no more big pulls, not even t1. I wonder if this is WAI or a new bug, but PotW heals should proc some more.

Doesn't seem too painful, soloing t1 just takes some more careful pulling to do (as it should). Would've been nice if the patch had boosted single target DPS a little though.

[siipperi]

Doesn't seem too painful, soloing t1 just takes some more careful pulling to do (as it should). Would've been nice if the patch had boosted single target DPS a little though.

Problem is that it's not working properly. PoTW seems to work like it's calculating amount of procs it produces like it's always T1 bleed on the target. That's unacceptable for the class that is relying everything on self healing capability with the lowest ST damage in the game. ATM guardian self healing if not traiting botp is on abysmal level.

[Willj119]

This is a perfect example of something that should have been tested on Bullroarer but was not. Why are you so desperate to push poorly implemented changes to live without the proper testing?

[Joedangod]

ATM guardian self healing if not traiting botp is on abysmal level.

But then if you do trait BoTP you remain essentially invincible. Reducing Prey on the Weak heals just adds a slight requirement to be more tactical in terms of what panic skills you use.

The heal nerf was a step in the right direction, it probably should've come with either a full bleed fix or just a straight up dps buff though. And yeah, should've been a beta build for it.

[Turco]

Right now this update has got me shaking my head. What I thought was supposed to finally be a buff, feels like another nerf.

1) Prey on the Weak now has WAY less than a 1% PROC chance, to the point that it has been completely eliminated.

2) The bleed damage is very slow to tier up.

3) This one is the most confusing, and no one on my server has been able to clarify it for me. Before the update, my bleeds would tick for about 3,000 every two seconds at T10. Now my bleeds tick for about 2,200 - 2,500 every two seconds at T10. So unless I am doing something wrong, my DoT has greatly been reduced. I don't have the bleed crit legacy slotted (yet), but that doesn't explain the bleed DoT reduction even with crits.

Right now this feels like another step backwards for the class. I soloed some Roving Threats today, and it was definitely a bit tougher for me than usual. Hopefully this is a bug, and will be hotfixed.

[Roenan]

I have to agree. I was looking forward to the changes, and while it's nice to see bleeds stay up once they're applied, everything else stated here rings true as well.

Prey on the Weak isn't firing. In comparison to the previous rates, it's pretty much nonexistent. If I had to guess, it's due to what seems to be broken Heavy Blows, which used to tier up bleeds on critical hits, and now does not seem to be doing so, which should be triggering Prey on the Weak's heal.

[BotLike]

Since u18, every single time Turbine/SSG touch the guard, they break it even more. This is not about "rebalancing" a class line anymore, it's about plainly breaking it. I'm no programmer to pretend to know how hard it can be to fix red guard, but seeing the continual results from this "fixes" I would be ashamed if I were a dev. The saddest part is that red guards don't even needed this bleed thing fiasco before u18, they were mostly fine with (AoE) DPS, they just needed some reduction in healing and some ST DPS love.

It would be good to hear from SSG what they think about the job they are doing with the guard class. At this point, they should recognize their mistakes and listen to the comunity or they will "bleed" the guard comunity even more.

I agree 100% with everything you said.

I apologise for stepping in here without having tested the actual mess on live , but i do trust the feedback i read on the forums today and i have to say ,
this is both hilarious and depressing.
I actually haven't traited red since the very first ''hotfix'' ( trololol ) when i realised everything with regards to bleeds is broken , with the exception of 2-3 days during north ithilien launch.
I have no intention of doing so in the future either , i have no idea how my guardian is going to go through dagorlad or even mordor.
Most likely , i will dumb the class all together and turn it into a mule.
It's not that landscape content is hard or anything ( on the contrary ) but as a player that really pays attention into class mechanics , playing this mess is simply unacceptable.

Over the years , i've seen many cases where devs in lotro seemed clueless about class mechanics , but if they really nerfed POTW and bleed scale speed on purpose i believe we are hopeless.

Funny part is , what can you do about it ? Ask for a fix ??????????? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAA , i doubt there will be any bleeds left at all after next "hotfix".

WP Tombstone Games.

[Turco]

I mean this just HAS to be a bug. I just can't believe the devs intended this.

Prey on the Weak is a friggin SET BONUS that deals additional damage based on the number of bleeds and provides a chance to "restore some of your morale". It says so right on the tooltip. How is it after this update, I do less bleed damage than before and Prey on the Weak no longer heals??? Reduced survivability with reduced dps??? Especially after being the LOWEST dps class in the game by far. Balance means either increased dps / lower survivability....or higher survivability / lower dps. Balance does not mean taking a class that has been punished update after update and hitting it again with nerfs to heals and dps.

The guardian community was so happy hearing about this update, but boy did we get trolled. This bug needs to get hotfixed ASAP and Prey on the Weak needs to function like it did before.

[Ethrildar]

So a class that's already CRIPPLED by bugs and barely playable, and has been that way for almost a year and a half, is broken further by an update that has basically no mention of the class?

Lotro gets better and better

[Joedangod]

Prey on the Weak isn't firing. In comparison to the previous rates, it's pretty much nonexistent. If I had to guess, it's due to what seems to be broken Heavy Blows, which used to tier up bleeds on critical hits, and now does not seem to be doing so, which should be triggering Prey on the Weak's heal.

War chant crits still seem to tier up the bleeds but they won't apply an initial bleed. Can't really recall if that was how it always worked or not.

There might have been a bug involved with war chant to begin with to be honest, I leveled a guard in yellow line and on a few (very rare) occasions I seemed to be applying guardian bleeds despite quite deliberately not traiting anything to do that.

[ChromiteSwiftpaw]

War chant crits still seem to tier up the bleeds but they won't apply an initial bleed. Can't really recall if that was how it always worked or not.

There might have been a bug involved with war chant to begin with to be honest, I leveled a guard in yellow line and on a few (very rare) occasions I seemed to be applying guardian bleeds despite quite deliberately not traiting anything to do that.

I vaguely remember bleeds being applied with Fray the Edge so War-Chant probably was able to as well. The good ol' days of guardians working are so long ago though...

[siipperi]

I vaguely remember bleeds being applied with Fray the Edge so War-Chant probably was able to as well. The good ol' days of guardians working are so long ago though...

If we are speaking of 95 level? Nah, we were broke then as well, bleeds producing huge variate of inconsistend damage like it does now.

[ChromiteSwiftpaw]

If we are speaking of 95 level? Nah, we were broke then as well, bleeds producing huge variate of inconsistend damage like it does now.

No, this was in the 100 range. I used to use Fray to pull some things in from distance so I could get a larger group of mobs to heal off of when doing Dol Amroth/Minas Tirith dailies and sometimes Fray would crit and pop a bleed. Yeah, I always thought it was weird but I distinctly remember seeing that bleed at Tier 1 on an incoming mob.

[mattspencer]

Yes, fray used to crit and apply a bleed. Not sure if it will now. In Wraith of Water I would often run red on final boss and use fray from a distance on the boss to attempt to apply bleeds. Brutal Charge + Fray was a good single target stun in the moors that would sometimes apply bleeds.

[Macdui]

Yeah I know I've had fray crit a bleed cos it would break the stun that I had wanted to apply. I'm kind of wondering how the hell sweeping cut still works! Shame it's not open source, would love to see this code history.

Wish they would revert back to pre +EdgeCase changes. Only then carefully apply some reasonable adjustments and forget about fixing the mess they have made.

Mac

[commdorvis]

Yeah I know I've had fray crit a bleed cos it would break the stun that I had wanted to apply. I'm kind of wondering how the hell sweeping cut still works! Shame it's not open source, would love to see this code history.

Wish they would revert back to pre +EdgeCase changes. Only then carefully apply some reasonable adjustments and forget about fixing the mess they have made.

Mac

One has to wonder at the brilliance of +EdgeCase--he comes in, ruins the Guardian, then mysteriously disappears, and those left behind spend months, and likely will spend years, undoing his sabotages. Deleting a rogue line of code only for another to occur in its place. Two years from now, when you think it's all been fixed, Guardians find that the Stagger debuff has been making enemies attack faster this whole time. A true agent of chaos. He knew he'd need a backup plan, so he installed a failsafe in the code. This is where it gets interesting...

[Vimrich]

But then if you do trait BoTP you remain essentially invincible. Reducing Prey on the Weak heals just adds a slight requirement to be more tactical in terms of what panic skills you use.

The heal nerf was a step in the right direction, it probably should've come with either a full bleed fix or just a straight up dps buff though. And yeah, should've been a beta build for it.

BOTP is being elevated to Herculean proportions. If you are a dps build and have about 25k morale, BOTP will give you about 625 base morale each time you are hit for 10 seconds, it isn't really going to make you invincible against anything other than paper cuts. It is nice when you have a ton of morale though.

I agree in general that we didn't rely heavily on our panic abilities much with the way POTW used to work, depending on the difficulty of the content. However, that is a poor yardstick to use to justify keeping POtW in a gimped form because I don't rely on panic abilities on any dps build for other classes in general and if you want to compare damage output vs self-healing vs survivability in non-tanking roles, the guardian would overall be bottom of the list in an overall analysis in non-tank spec for the classes that can tank specifically.

The only justification for keeping this as it is if Warden HOTs didn't stack/were nerfed into the ground as well. Not that I want to see that, but it is ridiculous for them to be as OP as they are while the Guardian keeps getting the nerfs.

If the guardian is to have basically trivial levels of self-healing that is functionally impotent, then the damage output should have been radically increased.

[Joedangod]

The only justification for keeping this as it is if Warden HOTs didn't stack/were nerfed into the ground as well.

If the guardian is to have basically trivial levels of self-healing that is functionally impotent, then the damage output should have been radically increased.

Warden HoT's were nerfed into the ground for redline, it's the blue line that currently needs a bit of DPS reduction.

I maintain the stance that damage output should never reach the point where guard is even mildly competitive DPS for instances, it is the tank class, it has 2 trait lines that tank very well. If third traitlines are supposed to be competitive in groups then guardian is one of the last classes requiring buffs to make that possible.

[siipperi]

Warden HoT's were nerfed into the ground for redline, it's the blue line that currently needs a bit of DPS reduction.

I maintain the stance that damage output should never reach the point where guard is even mildly competitive DPS for instances, it is the tank class, it has 2 trait lines that tank very well. If third traitlines are supposed to be competitive in groups then guardian is one of the last classes requiring buffs to make that possible.

They are about on the same level now as before due to usage of agility instead of mastery on the gear and ili rise.

[mattspencer]

I don't think Warden Redline -50% healing is nerfed to the ground. Like slipperi said, with Agility being the main essence used I think their self heals should be just fine. There are plenty of videos of Wardens doing incredible things post that update...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh3KrTfvP9E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AR-eZco6-C0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYSqulkNXTo

[Vimrich]

Warden HoT's were nerfed into the ground for redline, it's the blue line that currently needs a bit of DPS reduction.

I maintain the stance that damage output should never reach the point where guard is even mildly competitive DPS for instances, it is the tank class, it has 2 trait lines that tank very well. If third traitlines are supposed to be competitive in groups then guardian is one of the last classes requiring buffs to make that possible.

What is the point of having a red spec for Guardians though? To do landscape stuff? You can do landscape stuff wielding a frying pan.

I think if you can't do competitive single target dps in red spec or competitive ae dps in yellow spec, then the specs are largely pointless, because your only viable spec is a tank spec. This makes the guardian obsolete in any role that isn't tanking and tanking is a niche role. There are a lot more dps positions typically available. Guardian isn't even the best tank or the most desired off-tank, the Captain is far more desirable as a meat shield.

I don't really care because I don't do anything with my Guardian other than main tank now, so it doesn't really bother me, my dps gear is neglected and I have zero motivation to bother updating it because there is no point to when the difference is between mediocre and mediocre plus a bit more for a substantial cost to upgrade essences. It is kind of ironic that I can pull half a zone in blue spec and kill everything surprisingly quickly and safely, but you get hammered in red spec now and your single target damage isn't that great.

So what is the point? If you can't get a tank role then the devs want all the guardians to log off? That isn't a great selling point for their game.

I was expecting to see the self-healing be largely made redundant because they didn't need the healing, because their dps was more on par with other dps specs.

It should be irrelevant what a guardian can do in blue spec, if you are not in blue spec. The different trees are meant to have different roles. If a guardian can join a group in a dps role, he should be competitive in that role. I sigh when I see guardians join my pug runs because I know they are dead weight given I will be tanking, they shouldn't have to sit out because some people feel the class should be useless when not performing one niche role. If it is humanly possible, I will drag guardians along in dps roles. But the system shouldn't be this idiotic.