guardian bleeds u19.3 first impressions

[Crissaegrim]

But in the short term, we're mostly just trying to triage the red-line bugs to stop the bleeding. So to speak.

-Vastin

Thanks for speaking towards the issues, Vastin. We're looking forward to seeing solid changes for the better in the near term.

[BotLike]

Yes. The prior fix to the guardian bleeds was most certainly borked, and a new fix is already in testing to roll out probably in the next release.

Longer term... Yes, design-wise the combination of Radiate and the Red line bleeds was apparently not anticipated and resulted in a rather OP Red-line build with a dabbling of yellow that ended up out-classing the yellow line in its own arena. I can't speak to the exact intent as I wasn't here for that, but even a glance at the tree arrangement suggests that it was a design error.

It is likely that in the future the red-line will see some significant tweaks to its game-play, shifting it back away from AoE/self-heal, and more towards a full out DPS/leveling line, while we try to get Yellow back into the primacy for AoE off-tanking. I don't have any details to offer on those as I'm currently working on other matters, but in terms of intent, expect the builds to move in those general directions.

But in the short term, we're mostly just trying to triage the red-line bugs to stop the bleeding. So to speak.

-Vastin

Thanks for stepping into the class forums and letting us know what is going on.

1 thing though :
The red line needs a complete revamp in order to become a full out dps/levelling line , not associated with healing.
I am not sure if it worths the fuss or not.
Unless you take Prey on the Weak and swap it with singular focus (final trait) from yellow.
Obviously singular focus badly needs a boost , since the armour debuff is currently a joke and it would fit better in red anyway.
Also , something must be done about thrill of battle heal in red.... I mean it got completely destroyed by edgecase.
Put it into yellow if you have to , just make it useful.20 second internal cd ( or w/e it is ) is way way too long and it only seems to proc once even when hitting many targets...

[Urwendil]

Yes. The prior fix to the guardian bleeds was most certainly borked, and a new fix is already in testing to roll out probably in the next release.

Longer term... Yes, design-wise the combination of Radiate and the Red line bleeds was apparently not anticipated and resulted in a rather OP Red-line build with a dabbling of yellow that ended up out-classing the yellow line in its own arena. I can't speak to the exact intent as I wasn't here for that, but even a glance at the tree arrangement suggests that it was a design error.

It is likely that in the future the red-line will see some significant tweaks to its game-play, shifting it back away from AoE/self-heal, and more towards a full out DPS/leveling line, while we try to get Yellow back into the primacy for AoE off-tanking. I don't have any details to offer on those as I'm currently working on other matters, but in terms of intent, expect the builds to move in those general directions.

But in the short term, we're mostly just trying to triage the red-line bugs to stop the bleeding. So to speak.

-Vastin

Thanks for the heads up Vastin.

[mattspencer]

Yes. The prior fix to the guardian bleeds was most certainly borked, and a new fix is already in testing to roll out probably in the next release.

Longer term... Yes, design-wise the combination of Radiate and the Red line bleeds was apparently not anticipated and resulted in a rather OP Red-line build with a dabbling of yellow that ended up out-classing the yellow line in its own arena. I can't speak to the exact intent as I wasn't here for that, but even a glance at the tree arrangement suggests that it was a design error.

It is likely that in the future the red-line will see some significant tweaks to its game-play, shifting it back away from AoE/self-heal, and more towards a full out DPS/leveling line, while we try to get Yellow back into the primacy for AoE off-tanking. I don't have any details to offer on those as I'm currently working on other matters, but in terms of intent, expect the builds to move in those general directions.

But in the short term, we're mostly just trying to triage the red-line bugs to stop the bleeding. So to speak.

-Vastin

First, let me say thank you for responding and giving us some insight as to what the future may hold.

Second, I have to be honest that I am worried about what you may be saying above about Red-line. " Yes, design-wise the combination of Radiate and the Red line bleeds was apparently not anticipated and resulted in a rather OP Red-line build with a dabbling of yellow that ended up out-classing the yellow line in its own arena. " I hope you are referring to red-line being able to possibly aoe tank better than yellow line. In that respect, I can somewhat agree. I hope this is seen as yellow line being weak and needing fixing rather than red-line being "OP" and needing to be nerfed. I hope you aren't referring to red-line being "OP" in the sense of dps. Red-line has never been great at dps, it has been cross-traited with yellow to become great at survival. Any great red-line aoe dps parse will pale in comparison to an average aoe parse from a Warden or Champion. Most AOE fights would be so short that a Lore Master's rather bursty AOE dps will beat a Guardians. Anything done by Guards in red-line that may be considered OP has been done much quicker by Wardens.

In other words, please don't nerf Guard Red-line DPS, but change it from AOE to ST if you must.

About that, a fairly easy and straightforward way to do just that would be to lower the number of targets Sweeping Cut, Vexing Blow, and Whirling Retaliation can hit. They currently are at 7, 5, and 5 respectively with an imbued weapon. If you took them down to 4, 2, and 2 targets, and increased their damage, that would solve half of the AOE problem. The other half of the solution would be to put in either a passive trait bonus, or a regular trait very deep in yellow (as in bottom row) to increase aoe targets by 3 (or more).

If it is the self healing in red-line that you are worried about, reduce the magnitude of Prey on the Weak healing to about 25% to 50% of what it is currently. Please counter this with increased DPS in some form, as it is only our self healing combined with DPS that make red-line fun to play. If you lower one, please increase the other.

Thank you again for your reply and information of what may come.

[Vimrich]

Yes. The prior fix to the guardian bleeds was most certainly borked, and a new fix is already in testing to roll out probably in the next release.

Longer term... Yes, design-wise the combination of Radiate and the Red line bleeds was apparently not anticipated and resulted in a rather OP Red-line build with a dabbling of yellow that ended up out-classing the yellow line in its own arena. I can't speak to the exact intent as I wasn't here for that, but even a glance at the tree arrangement suggests that it was a design error.

It is likely that in the future the red-line will see some significant tweaks to its game-play, shifting it back away from AoE/self-heal, and more towards a full out DPS/leveling line, while we try to get Yellow back into the primacy for AoE off-tanking. I don't have any details to offer on those as I'm currently working on other matters, but in terms of intent, expect the builds to move in those general directions.

But in the short term, we're mostly just trying to triage the red-line bugs to stop the bleeding. So to speak.

-Vastin

Firstly, thank you for coming here and communicating with the players, it is encouraging to see.

If I can offer some advice, please release any changes to Bullroarer so guardians can give it a test run, you may not necessarily agree with points of view of where damage or healing should be at, however, I think we can prevent code going live that isn't functioning as the devs intend it to.

I am not sure how any dev couldn't have anticipated the consequences of Radiate and red-line bleeds, a simple solution is to place radiate as a yellow set trait instead of a tree trait, it means you wouldn't get the extent of bleed spreading that exists currently. However, I like radiate, it helps to generate agro for my blue spec tank and I would hate to see it be moved.

At the end of the day, you still have the issues of what extent of red-line dps, self-healing, yellow-line ae dps you want and how that impacts the pace of game play and enjoyability of game play.

What I also think that the devs need to communicate is for the intent of the trees. Is red-line meant to be competitive for single target dps as other dps classes, and is yellow-line meant to be competitive for ae dps as other classes capable of ae dps. If not, what is the point? Tanking is a very niche role. Blue works, works quite well. Yellow tanking is very situational, in most cases blue is far superior.

I have different classes I play to dps, to heal and guardian is my go-to tank, however, there are a lot of players that just focus on one character, or invest significantly in one character. It is quite expensive and time consuming to gear up and keep up with ilvl changes, there needs to be a purpose for the investment imo. I have neglected my guardian dps gear because if I am not a competitive dpser for T2 groups/raids, then my L100 gear can breeze through any other content and if I don't have the incentive to upgrade then what else is the player doing?

I think SSG needs a clear message as what the objectives are and where they wish to head, the tweaking of values is kind of meaningless unless you are actively working towards that intended goal.

[Macdui]

You can understand how we thought this guy was new; actual admission that someone messed up the last few fixes and that trait trees had unintended repercussions. Honesty, good grief!

I was here during the HD changes. At one point the Guardian wasn't available to play on Bullroarer because it was broken. You had a release date set in stone and various developers desperate to get the class changes done in time. Doing trait trees and threat changes alongside a big content releases was the problem. They were acting on any suggestion to fix stuff and balance was forgotten about, the dev dairies were a fiction. And once done, no budget to address all the issues and everything side-lined to the mantra of content release content release content release. As players playing multiple classes the balance issues were obvious and yet we're told you all play the game but seemingly couldn't see the problems or weren't interested in addressing them.

So 3 years on how do you proceed? Even minor class changes can effect someone's gameplay. I've seen many give up playing because changes have so effected the gameplay of their favourite character.

Any class change, however seemingly minor should be on Bullroarer and if it's alongside a content release then it must not be tied to that content release, leave it off live until it's ready.

For the long term Guardian goals you seem to be referring to the original dev diary, should we expect other classes to go the same way, should I be worried for my alts?

If we are to loose the Red/Yellow OP build, that still could not get a bona fide DPS spot in a fellow are we ever going to get an effective non-tanking role in a fellow? I see you refer to a levelling red build...

I see several classes using set bonus combos to make particular key skills very powerful, should you have a max level use on some of these sets or continue the lazy copying of old set bonuses for new gear? Maybe more care over set bonuses could be taken, they can be so weak to be of no use but when too strong that they are equipped long after level then it can't be good.

Do you have any comment on the Threat mechanics that ties threat to damage for a tanking build and because that wouldn't work relies on OP threat copy to actually work?

Do you have the budget?

Mac

[NeebPlayer]

Yes. The prior fix to the guardian bleeds was most certainly borked, and a new fix is already in testing to roll out probably in the next release.

Longer term... Yes, design-wise the combination of Radiate and the Red line bleeds was apparently not anticipated and resulted in a rather OP Red-line build with a dabbling of yellow that ended up out-classing the yellow line in its own arena. I can't speak to the exact intent as I wasn't here for that, but even a glance at the tree arrangement suggests that it was a design error.

It is likely that in the future the red-line will see some significant tweaks to its game-play, shifting it back away from AoE/self-heal, and more towards a full out DPS/leveling line, while we try to get Yellow back into the primacy for AoE off-tanking. I don't have any details to offer on those as I'm currently working on other matters, but in terms of intent, expect the builds to move in those general directions.

But in the short term, we're mostly just trying to triage the red-line bugs to stop the bleeding. So to speak.

-Vastin

While I agree that it was quite op, it was undeniably very fun to play and it gave the class its unique character. Now the dev that made the "fix' completely destroyed this and you are now assuring us that you will make sure red line gets turned into a mediocre "leveling line" that's not good for anything else. What is the point of a game if it's not having fun? I'm sorry but you guys turn everything into boring, bland, grindy ####, uproot everything and take the fun out of everything. Also, talking about hunter changes.

Literally every great guard I know stopped playing the class after you nerfed it. Not talking about people who were great because of the class was op, talking about people who were able to make the most of a really cool, unique and powerful class. I hope you at least see the distinction. Or actually I don't even care... I find myself not having logged into LOTRO for over a month. The baseline of the game changed. It's now a grindfest from which you meticulously removed any highlights to make sure only braindead people would play it, all just to allow you to design fully p2w systems. I get it, this is what modern MMOs are like. But you guys forget you have to have at least some compelling elements to your game or it becomes something that's not worth it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about you personally. I'm talking to you because you seem to be pretty much the last person left worth talking to.

[Macdui]

I'm guessing the latest fix, for today's hot fix, is just a roll back to the previously broken code. But this last change was deemed simple enough not to put on Bullroarer and again this "fix" goes the same way, not on Bullroarer. I can only wonder what will happen if we don't get to test again!

[Joedangod]

The battle with making red line ST is that some of the traits weren't really thought out for ST. Heavy Blows and the passive redline trait to tier bleeds on crits just mean you can easily tier bleeds via the several AoE skills at the guardians disposal. If those traits don't change then the cashing out of bleeds should probably be the main source of DPS rather than the bleeds themselves. You'd still be capable of AoE damage but you would have to focus one target at a time rather than just aoeing wildly until everything falls.

[siipperi]

While I agree that it was quite op, it was undeniably very fun to play and it gave the class its unique character. Now the dev that made the "fix' completely destroyed this and you are now assuring us that you will make sure red line gets turned into a mediocre "leveling line" that's not good for anything else. What is the point of a game if it's not having fun? I'm sorry but you guys turn everything into boring, bland, grindy ####, uproot everything and take the fun out of everything. Also, talking about hunter changes.

Literally every great guard I know stopped playing the class after you nerfed it. Not talking about people who were great because of the class was op, talking about people who were able to make the most of a really cool, unique and powerful class. I hope you at least see the distinction. Or actually I don't even care... I find myself not having logged into LOTRO for over a month. The baseline of the game changed. It's now a grindfest from which you meticulously removed any highlights to make sure only braindead people would play it, all just to allow you to design fully p2w systems. I get it, this is what modern MMOs are like. But you guys forget you have to have at least some compelling elements to your game or it becomes something that's not worth it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about you personally. I'm talking to you because you seem to be pretty much the last person left worth talking to.

Red line guardian even if correctly working is definition of brokenly OP, you can do 10k self healing blindfolded and hands tied behind your back. Class is way better off by removing all proc self heals and giving them dps where guardians feel like they can do little of it in style of other mediocre non dps classes.

[Elgrind]

Red line guardian even if correctly working is definition of brokenly OP, you can do 10k self healing blindfolded and hands tied behind your back. Class is way better off by removing all proc self heals and giving them dps where guardians feel like they can do little of it in style of other mediocre non dps classes.

Yeah sure, i agree with you.
Lets remove healing warden gambits in redline aswell. Selfmotivation for RK, WL for LM in redline. BA for hunter in everyline, no heal skill for cappy in redline, no heal for red mini too.
Lets remove all guardian procs healing in redline aswell. We done. Fixed ? Not really

[DiogoVP]

He's not new, just coming back.

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...39#post7689839


And, his previous account's profile from which you can see his older posts:

https://www.lotro.com/forums/member.php?204728-Vastin

Thanks for that!

I like the way he talked about the guards (even though I don't agree with everything), but he is very good at demonstrating what he thinks and why he thinks that and I always thought that this leads to constructive discussions. I am very happy that SSG is increasing the team's size. =)
Is FriendlyHat in the same department of systems development?

[nelar]

While I agree that it was quite op, it was undeniably very fun to play and it gave the class its unique character.

For me, my Warden was more survivable and my Champion did higher AoE damage, and neither of those classes required me to be hit regularly to maximize damage. So I actually don't agree that Guardian was OP previously, but I most definitely agree that it was fun -- and that fun factor was lost when the bleeds were nerfed.

I'm not seeing the problem with Red+Yellow doing more AoE dmg than Yellow+?. Yellow is a tanking line -- why should it do more dmg then a Red DPS line? Currently, Beorning, Burglar, Captain, Hunter, and Red Champion are ST physical classes, and Champion and Guard are the only AoE physical classes. I don't see the advantage or changing Red Guardian to ST leaving the Champion as the ONLY AoE physical class. Not every player will prefer a ST class -- and halving the options for an AoE class doesn't seem like a good thing. This is particularly true for the players that prefer solo/small groups -- the AoE Red Guardian was a fun class for that playstyle. Now only the Champion fills that role, and the reduced choice for players doesn't strike me as an advantage.

[BigLotroFan]

If redline guard will move away from self heal and into a more dps line then we need added survivability. The self heals were a welcome addition to me considering my armor felt like it was made of paper after the trait lines were introduced. Give us back Guardian's Pledge in DPS. Bring me back to the days of my Isengard dps build. I was respectable compared to Champions and still tough as nails like a Guard!

[Macdui]

Normal service has been resumed with the hot fix, looks like back to May/June 2016 Guardian.

[Fermongu]

Red line guardian even if correctly working is definition of brokenly OP, you can do 10k self healing blindfolded and hands tied behind your back. Class is way better off by removing all proc self heals and giving them dps where guardians feel like they can do little of it in style of other mediocre non dps classes.

How do you get 10k HPS? Highest HPS I got is 1.5k HPS in big pulls in Helegrod Spider t1, and that was unrealistical, just for testing. In more normal scenarios of a few mobs, I get 200-500 HPS. For some comparison, my red capy self heals are in the same range 300-400 HPS. I'm ok with nerf to self healing so we can't solo a raid, but we need then big DPS increase to be viable as that role in fellowships. In that line, I dislike we will lose AoE DPS, why leave only champs as only viable AoE melee DPS while having several classes for ST DPS? Let bleeds spread (increase again radiate and Insult!) and let red guards be decent as AoE DPS, just like they were.

[siipperi]

Lets remove all guardian procs healing in redline aswell. We done. Fixed ? Not really

Lets be honest here, not like guardian lacks self heals even without prey on the weak. Problem is that they have such low dps, with higher dps self healing like that is not needed, well it's not needed even now anywhere but pvp, to make prey on the weak balanced it should have few second internal cooldown to prevent it to be used on aoe targets and healing multiple times per hit. But even if they end up removing potw guardians still have 45s honourable combat, 2min full morale heal (+morale for some time) and 2 other not very relevant heals, which thrill of battle could be lowered to 5s internal cooldown.

How do you get 10k HPS? Highest HPS I got is 1.5k HPS in big pulls in Helegrod Spider t1, and that was unrealistical, just for testing. In more normal scenarios of a few mobs, I get 200-500 HPS. For some comparison, my red capy self heals are in the same range 300-400 HPS. I'm ok with nerf to self healing so we can't solo a raid, but we need then big DPS increase to be viable as that role in fellowships. In that line, I dislike we will lose AoE DPS, why leave only champs as only viable AoE melee DPS while having several classes for ST DPS? Let bleeds spread (increase again radiate and Insult!) and let red guards be decent as AoE DPS, just like they were.

Have enough morale and utilize set- and trait bonuses.

[Fermongu]

I think you may refer to BotP? I never used that, I was thinking only of PotW healing... Maybe another way of nerfing guards self healing can be removing BotP heals entirely? Or make them yellow set bonus instead of trait.

[siipperi]

I think you may refer to BotP? I never used that, I was thinking only of PotW healing... Maybe another way of nerfing guards self healing can be removing BotP heals entirely? Or make them yellow set bonus instead of trait.

Even prey on the weak can heal close to 5k

[kerbelettos]

still broken
bleeds random t10 bleed 1254 pm 65k finess 21k critratin 16.3k firestarter northithilien or is this op ?
allmost full red line

[Macdui]

still broken
bleeds random t10 bleed 1254 pm 65k finess 21k critratin 16.3k firestarter northithilien or is this op ?
allmost full red line

They told us they rolled back the bleed fix so that prey would work again. The intent was to be less broken, or at least as broken as last year. My read on it is that the original coders have left a mess and they're thinking of a re-write. You say almost full red line, however since HD we've had an increase to trait points for all classes and many builds have become far more powerful cross traiting. I certainly had builds in mind for a couple of characters before the last points were added into the game especially where capstones were so lack lustra. The only surprise is that a Red + Yellow build was powerful on day one, other classes had to wait a bit.


The insane levels of self healing that is possible comes from doubling up set bonus gear and finding a mass of mobs, which is down to Turbine/SSG. I don't want to equip low level gear or non-imbued LIs to make my character work.

Mac

[Turco]

still broken
bleeds random t10 bleed 1254 pm 65k finess 21k critratin 16.3k firestarter northithilien or is this op ?
allmost full red line

I spent thirty minutes on my guardian today, and quickly tested out the dps / bleeds on North Ithilien Firestarters. I glanced at the combat log, and my T10 Bleeds showed as 1,100 - 1,450ish with crits at around 2,700ish. Crit frequency is a lot less now as well. Will look at the dps numbers more closely tomorrow, but it definitely took a long time to get that Firestarter morale bar down. My base Physical Mastery is about 72,000 and crit at 25% (Redline w a bit of yellow).

I know this is a bandaid hotfix for now, but just mentioning what I saw. Damage seemed higher before the hotfix unfortunately.

[Macdui]

I know this is a bandaid hotfix for now...

It was removal of the last bandaid that ruptured the wound of the previous bandaid.

[Findun]

I spent thirty minutes on my guardian today, and quickly tested out the dps / bleeds on North Ithilien Firestarters. I glanced at the combat log, and my T10 Bleeds showed as 1,100 - 1,450ish with crits at around 2,700ish. Crit frequency is a lot less now as well. Will look at the dps numbers more closely tomorrow, but it definitely took a long time to get that Firestarter morale bar down. My base Physical Mastery is about 72,000 and crit at 25% (Redline w a bit of yellow).

I know this is a bandaid hotfix for now, but just mentioning what I saw. Damage seemed higher before the hotfix unfortunately.

If this is true, then indeed blue/yellow parses higher than red right now lol.

[Zonflux]

If this is true, then indeed blue/yellow parses higher than red right now lol.

Hi @Findun, I ran my own tests of which I will let you and the community be the judge after watching.

I decided to do various fair and equal comparisons of Blue versus Red in this stream, all live stream. The results whether it is U19.3 or post U19.3 rollback may or may not surprise you depending on whether you have been watching my videos. Personally I'd say that this video stream is definitely worth a watch. Please let me know your thoughts from my comparisons.